I wasn't designed to eat just vegetables. Meat is yummy!

see, I was a vegan for eight years. one of the actual strict vegans not just someone who calls themselves one. Then one day I woke up to how the world works. I am very glad this video is on here so people can see in fact what the mass meat industry is like. You actually get a taste of what you are a part of, and this is good. Because one of the main reasons I turned vegan was I was sheltered from the realities pretty well of what meat was how it was produced and everything else ( stupid as that sounds) but one day just as quick as it went it started an eight year ideology in my mind. all because the information was not talked about. shitty parents just wanting to have an easier job.

Chicken fun...! Now I want an omelette.

Interesting, but not as hilarious as the giant vacuum cleaner they use to collect the chicks on the field.

Shit, now I'm hungry for some turkey.

16 chickens died to get me the package of chicken wings I bought today. Does that bother me? Not in the slightest.

I have no illusions as to where my food comes from, and though it is unfortunate how some of those chicks slipped through the cracks and received more than their fair share of pain, we need a fast, efficient process to get to us the food we need.

Further, the Least Harm Principle suggests that living a vegan lifestyle actually kills more animals than if we subsisted strictly on ruminant animals. So I think I'll stick with beef

Don't get me wrong, I love my meat. I love all kinds of meat. I have killed, skinned, and butchered animals myself. I take pride in my ability to do this.

But this is too much. I was taught as a child to be respectful to animals, ESPECIALLY the animals I dine on.

Some of these comments are just ridiculous.

*snuff!

'S why I pay extra for cage-free, free range eggs. Not cruelty-free by any means, but there's certainly much less cruelty.

I'm with you, Throbbin. It's important to keep in mind the costs of what we eat.

And yes, that does mean cutting back on meat and dairy. But that's something most Americans should do anyway; we eat too much of them, and it's bad for most people's health.

It's not snuff, they aren't human. Sorry, they're food. They were doomed before they were hatched. No, I don't think treating them like this is acceptable, but I hold no illusions about the ordeal.

At least, I'm not eating dude-chicken.

It seems wasteful just to grind up the male chicks. Sure it's cruel, but they were destined to die one way or another. The whole go vegan and save the animals message isn't getting across to me though.

What is interesting to me is George Will coming forward and saying that we need to treat our food animals more humanely. George Will! Super Conservative! He wrote an entire editorial on the subject a couple of years back. It was astounding.

You lot are a bunch of horrible cunts. I agree with throbbin 100%. you can't tell me this video doesn't give you pause.

And by the way, not only is it true that eating food that comes from this kind of process is immoral, its also inherently less healthy. So have a nice short life, you miserable bastards.

As unfortunate and uncomfortable as this is, it's far less moving to me than say, a single iraqi child with their arm blown off. Until we've stopped indiscriminately killing people, I'm not going to worry about baby chickens getting turned into cat chow.

Factory farming is a necessary evil, there's too many people for us all to raise our own livestock. Food animals are a commodity, they're not pets, once you stop thinking of them as such, it's easy to compare what you see in videos like this with harvesting produce.

Frankly I'm more disgusted with what the corn industry has done to corn farming, relying on tax money to keep prices low enough to grow billions of tons of inedible produce that can only be used for the high fructose corn syrup that is killing so many obese people. It's a sad state of affairs that a corn farmer can't even feed their family the "food" the produce.

3 things:

1) This looks terrible and disturbing.

2) They are not people. This is a discussion we've had before about animals and feelings (I think it was with yourhydra?). Chicks do not experience pain in the same way that we do and they do not contemplate their fate like we would. People tend to anthropomorphize small cuddly animals, but it's not a baby. It's a chicken.

3) There are things that are far more disturbing, with bigger animals and/or people. Torturing a person is a million times worse than this, and have you seen how bad dogs and cats have it in Thailand?

I'm not a complete cold-hearted bastard; I don't like seeing something like this, I don't like to see cows being slaughtered either, but I sure do like beef. So I'm going to have to accept that a cow died to bring me my juicy rib-eye, and I can live with that.

While I don't necessarily agree with the "Go vegan" statement, this is still one of the prime reasons why people should eat significantly less meat, and demand much more from the meat that they do eat.

I think people can attain a greater degree of satisfaction by limiting their meat consumption to once every 3 or 4 days, enabling them to buy high-quality organic meat for those special occasions which can truely be savoured instead of simply devoured.

And that's without even factoring in the other obvious benefits of reduced meat consumption, such as a healthier digestion, greatly reduced pressure on agriculture and the resulting drops in fossil fuel use and CO2 emissions.

It is important to remember than one doesn't necessarily have to adhere to strict vegan- or vegetarianism to make a difference.

>> ^HollywoodBob:
Factory farming is a necessary evil, there's too many people for us all to raise our own livestock.

Everything's a necessary evil until you decide to change your priorities. Slavery was a necessary evil, unless you were willing to let cotton prices rise. Owning a car is a necessary evil, unless you decide to move to a city with good public transit. Factory farming is a necessary evil, unless you decide that you don't want to eat these products, or at least are willing to pay more for ones that were treated differently.

It's very possible to decide what impact you'll have on the world. But the path of least resistance in America is a pretty destructive one: strewn with slave labor, oil-fueled war casualties, tortured animals, and toxic emissions. You're free to decide that you don't care about some of those things, but you can't call them necessities. You're free to be angrier about unjust wars or farm subsidies than mangled chicks, but it's not a zero sum game. You can go to war protests and call your congressman about the new farm bill and still have plenty of time left over to not buy chicken and eggs on your way home from work.

The problem isn't that it's too hard to change your diet. The problem is that it's too easy not to think about it at all.

Is it wrong to wonder how Rush Limbaugh would fair in this machine?

I dont mind the chick grinder if it blows breakfast burritos out the other end.

The Grinder- Being killed in less than a second is fairly humane. I hope to go that quickly.

The Cracks- The chicks falling off the equipment are not systemic cruelty but poor handling. It could even be argued that Vegan Camera Person is being more cruel by just videotaping its suffering rather than killing it. I wonder if they turned off the camera and walked away, tutt-tutting while it writhed on the floor.

"I'm a Level 5 Vegan -- I won't eat anything that casts a shadow."

> not only is it true that eating food that comes from this kind
> of process is immoral, its also inherently less healthy

Well, we need our lean proteins to survive and be healthy. Tuna is loaded with mercury... so.... bock bock

>> ^syncron:
It seems wasteful just to grind up the male chicks. Sure it's cruel, but they were destined to die one way or another. The whole go vegan and save the animals message isn't getting across to me though.


I don't imagine what comes out of the grinder is wasted. It is probably the "chicken" in your dog's "chicken and rice" dog food, etc.

And Mikus... bad form for even comparing this with slavery. As Gwiz said, and as has been discussed before, these are not humans, they aren't suffering like a human would, and until every last human on earth has the same rights and freedoms as everyone else a 6-hour-old chicken is an incredibly low priority.

Isn't the solution to this already known? Meat grown in vats is already working in the lab and will likely play an important role in the 21st century in feeding with ever-fewer resources the burgeoning human population.

""Will Lab-Grown Meat Save the Planet?" Slate, 2008.

I am by no means vegetarian, and hate Peta as much as the next guy... but this is heartless.

Plus, I have my own chickens.

So, this is horrible. You can raise chickens much more humanely.

>> ^Skeeve:
And Mikus... bad form for even comparing this with slavery. As Gwiz said, and as has been discussed before, these are not humans, they aren't suffering like a human would, and until every last human on earth has the same rights and freedoms as everyone else a 6-hour-old chicken is an incredibly low priority.


I don't believe he was comparing the chickens suffering to that of slaves, but rather the perception of both caged chickens and slavery as necessary evils at some point in time, to justify some arbitrary life standards humans have set for themselves.

Whether the chickens have human emotions or not is not the point. The point is that meat production does not have to be done this way. And every consumer has the power to change these standards being critical consumers, if they truely wanted to. This is not a necessary evil, there are plenty of excellent alternatives to the extremely high-protein diet most people have today.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Humans can get by just fine without animal proteins. And as the literature at my local Hari Krishna restaurant says- you could feed the entire world 7 times over if the crops devoted to livestock feed were instead used for human food production.

^Just make ChickieNobs already - problem solved.

Full on. I've never been vego, but I have designs to eat sustainably and live sustainably - have my own chooks, kill what meat I need to feed the family and all that - grow my own crops etc. I agree that we've found ourselves too far removed from our food source, and from nature in general.

Thanks for posting.

The 'until every human is properly provided for' argument seems horribly complacent and copout-ish. I mean by definition, you're implying you're agreeing something has to be done about it, but then you're also putting yourself in a state of denial about it. Providing everyone in the world with livable conditions, and the same rights and freedom is not something most people are even remotely in a position to do, whereas starting a movement to boycott meat products that come from inhumane abattoirs would be a cinch in comparison.

Now given all that, I am a hypocrite.

terrible? yes. inhumane? yes. become a vegan? no f*ing way.

>> ^dag:
Humans can get by just fine without animal proteins. And as the literature at my local Hari Krishna restaurant says- you could feed the entire world 7 times over if the crops devoted to livestock feed were instead used for human food production.


I already referenced the Least Harm Principle. "So, every time the tractor goes through the field to plow, disc, cultivate, apply fertilizer and/or pesticide, harvest, etc., animals are killed. And, intensive agriculture such as corn and soybeans (products central to a vegan diet) kills far more animals of the field than would extensive agriculture like forage production, particularly if the forage was harvested by ruminant animals instead of machines."

The conclusions of the LHP are that we should stop eating poultry and eat ruminant animals (cow, goat, sheep, deer, etc.). Reasonable estimates are that we would kill about 0.982 billion animals per year. Less than in the vegan alternative of 1.2 billion. (See: Davis, Steven L. "The Least Harm Principle May Require that Humans Consume a Diet Containing Large Herbivores, Not a Vegan Diet" in Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics Vol. 16 No 4 July 2003.)

>> ^Payback:
The Grinder- Being killed in less than a second is fairly humane. I hope to go that quickly.
The Cracks- The chicks falling off the equipment are not systemic cruelty but poor handling. It could even be argued that Vegan Camera Person is being more cruel by just videotaping its suffering rather than killing it. I wonder if they turned off the camera and walked away, tutt-tutting while it writhed on the floor.


You nailed exactly what I was thinking. The chicks being dropped in the grinder are getting a quick and humane death, which is the best that can be done for anything you kill for food. If you want to see something inhumane try raising a more than a dozen chickens in even a partially enclosed space. Inevitably one of the chickens will be weaker than the others, and will be gradually pecked to death by all the others. That's the reason for 'cruel' de-beaking of the chicks as they are moved on. All in all animal's raised for food usually die in a more humane fashion than their wild and free counterparts which is should count for a lot.

That's why I eat the eggs BEFORE they hatch

...oh yea and I eat chicken too

...oh yea and kittens

>> ^Skeeve:
>> ^syncron:
And Mikus... bad form for even comparing this with slavery. As Gwiz said, and as has been discussed before, these are not humans, they aren't suffering like a human would, and until every last human on earth has the same rights and freedoms as everyone else a 6-hour-old chicken is an incredibly low priority.


^ That is a very stupid comment.

Life feeds on life, to try and create a world where we don't eat another living thing is to wish us extinct - plant life is life, we just place a higher value on things that can move around. To try and create a world where we don't eat meat is to try and correct evolution which is universally stupid - we are how we are because it works, it's the best way of doing it, we need meat, evolution can't get it wrong. A healthy average human adult needs meat. Vegans are denying their body of what hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has given us a reliance on.

However we don't need to be cruel to it before it becomes meat.

So is there a way that I can buy like a 5 gallon bucket of ground chicken slurry?

>> ^Skeeve: The conclusions of the LHP are that we should stop eating poultry and eat ruminant animals (cow, goat, sheep, deer, etc.). Reasonable estimates are that we would kill about 0.982 billion animals per year. Less than in the vegan alternative of 1.2 billion.

This math only works in some magical fairy land where cows do their own grazing. When was the last time you bought grass-fed beef? It's rare, and expensive. Industrially raised cattle eat industrially grown grains, same as the poultry, and humans, but cows eat more of them per pound of edible protein produced.

If they are going to use grass-fed cattle numbers, then they need to use biodynamic/no-till farming for the vegan side. This smells of cooked books to me.

I'll stop eating meat the day people stop killing each other. Why should I care about a bunch of chickens when even human lives are that unimportant. There is nothing I as a single individual can do about either problem, and if there were something I could do, I would prioritize saving human lives.

If they are going to use grass-fed cattle numbers...

Maybe VS has a solution that everyone can enjoy with baby chick-fed cattle?

>> ^Skeeve:

Further, the Least Harm Principle suggests that living a vegan lifestyle actually kills more animals than if we subsisted strictly on ruminant animals. So I think I'll stick with beef


Skeeve, I just read a quick summary of LHP and it has some pretty obvious holes in it:

- It counts exposing rodents to predators (when crops are harvested) as "killing" them. Obviously, predators would be eating rodents anyway. A loss to mice is a gain to buzzards.

- It bases deaths of wild animals caused by agriculture on decline in numbers compared to before the area is farmed. This is pretty flawed, since animal numbers would plummet when the land was claimed but level out afterwards. Some of the animals would move nearby and some would cut down on reproduction rather than dying in some great massacre.

- It goes by pure numbers, counting a fieldmouse the same as a cow. Now I don't want to see mice getting squished, but an animal with a pinhead brain does not have the same capacity to suffer as a large grazing animal like a cow or a pig. Otherwise you might as well count aphids in the death toll. (I appreciate that this was countering a hard-line vegan argument, so I suppose the equal treatment is valid in that particular context).

- It lists pesticides as a cause of death, but seemingly ignores the possibilities of organic farming. When was the last time you met a vegan that was keen on pesticides?


Sorry, that was really preachy. I'm kind of riled up because I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian and therefore indirectly responsible for those chicks getting minced. Not a nice feeling.

P.s. Props to Throbbin. I have a great deal of respect for people who have killed for their meat. If everyone had to slaughter an animal before they could buy KFC there might only be a small increase in vegetarianism, but at least there would be a large decrease in hypocrisy.

[redacted]

I'm sorry throbbin i had to down vote. I think the discussion is good but the video makes me want to cry in a bad way.

... and that's how Peeps are made!

>> ^griefer_queafer:
And by the way, not only is it true that eating food that comes from this kind of process is immoral, its also inherently less healthy. So have a nice short life, you miserable bastards.


It is less healthy, but even organic meat shortens your life span relative to proper vegan diets.

>> ^Mcboinkens:
Those chickens wouldn't even be in existance if we weren't eating them. Yes it's cruel, but will the chickens that get tossed around remember that? Probably not. Is it better to be but through a grinder than be cooped up your entire life and beheaded? Probably. I'm more concerned about the kid that won't be having anything to eat tonight than these chickens.


I'm fully capable of being concerned about them both.

They are babies. Here before humans were...WHy don't we put your babies in a grinder and see how you like it.

Imagine it when the cannibal alien overlords arrive and decide that human tastes pretty nice, they might have some crazy religion that has stayed in their culture whereby eating an intelligent being is seen as a "necessary evil" to grow stronger somehow.

They'll enslave us, and have factories doing exactly the same thing as in this video, I guess they'd have lasers cutting off our balls because they don't like them.

I mean the karma has gotta come back around at some point.

But I guess its still survival of the fittest and baby chickens have come under the domain of mankind and its tools created by their powerful minds. Why would the apes in suits and their wonderful giant boxes of possessions care about the lives of other "lower" creatures.

^We can make an argument for not eating people - they know what's going to happen, they know what it's about. Chickens don't.

You don't have to go vegan to avoid eating eggs produced in this way!

If the grinder is so fast and humane, why not use a really big one for capital punishment? That would make executions a lot more exciting.

It's perfectly possible to treat animals better than this and still feed people perfectly well.

The PROBLEM is that people have come to expect a ridiculously low price on things like chicken. The price paid for a whole chicken for cooking is insanely low. Too low to be sustainable in such a way that the animals are actually treated fairly.

If the animals are raised in an environment where they can move about, scratch and do their natural actions, and are then humanely and quickly killed, then I have no issue eating them.

When this is done so heartlessly (those people on the production line flinging the poor chicks into the chutes), and with a disregard for the fact that those are living creatures.

THEN

Then I have a problem.

The answer is so very NOT a vegetarian/vegan diet, we're built to be omnivorous. It's what we're designed for, it's what our teeth and gut is for.

What we're NOT designed for is the VERY overly processed 'meat products' like pressed meat patties which are only a percentage meat.

Properly cooked, low fat meats are very good for you and help you in many ways, and when realistic thoughts on how much such meat should cost prevail and more animals are reared humanely, then maybe we can all feel better about things.

And one way to handle the increase in price that SHOULD happen for meats? Eat more vegies and fruit... yep, I don't want to be exclusively a vegan/vegetarian, but I think we don't eat enough fruit, vegies and grain anymore, and if we upped the consumption of those and had less serving size of meat, then the extra cost of the meat would be handled by having smaller, more healthy servings.

Healthier people, happier animals, better planet... Huzzah for all!

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Poolcleaner, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the chickens wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.

This is necessary --
LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE

>> ^poolcleaner:



you tool you

I grew up on a ranch so growing up, most meat I ate came from the animals we raised. I also used to hunt so I know how if feels to kill and clean a carcase. Now living in a more urban setting with grocery stores ect. meat does taste different (mainly pork). I know bacon maybe the thing that some vegetarians miss more than any other meat but really don't like it anymore. I actually don't eat pork at all anymore...I get made fun of for eating turkey bacon all the time but I just don't like store bought bacon. Milk is another thing that's different.

While I agree that we have become removed from our source I don't think that everyone should go out, buy a piece of land, farm and raise their own food. I think everyone has a job and people specialized in agriculture do that job well. If everyone had their own little farm each person would have to have their own separate house with their own separate septic system, ect. Taking up even more good land (like our population doesn't do that enough).

Society's desire for cheap, plentiful food incriminates us all.

I'm afraid not. There's nothing wrong with wanting cheap and plentiful food.

>> ^Xax:
Society's desire for cheap, plentiful food incriminates us all.
I'm afraid not. There's nothing wrong with wanting cheap and plentiful food.


Nope, nothing wrong with it.....until chicks are treated this way.

When sharks, crocodiles and tigers start taking an interest in the humane killing of humans for food, I will take an interest in the treatment of chickens. Granted, humans aren't often on the menu...but still.

I'm pretty sure if we took away all factory farming and I had to go out into the wild to hunt my own meat, the impaling arrows I use to kill chickens will somehow not cause less pain then the grinder or de-beaker and the spear or knife I use to kill larger game will increase the animal's stress level significantly more than a quick spike in the brain.

Some people live in a fantasy world where nature is not cruel and we are somehow not a product of nature. I guess it's easy to get confused when your meat comes prepackaged in neat foam containers and you have the luxury of sitting comfortably while demonizing the people who created it for you.

My body needs meat and if I had to jump on the animals back and rip it's throat out with my teeth...well, I'd just buy more dental floss.

To everyone defending the chick-grinders: are you really sure you're not just trying to protect your peace of mind? The fact is, you like meat. You want to continue to eat meat - a lot of it probably - and you don't want to pay too much for it. Human minds are great at producing justifications for their desires. We're very good at deceiving ourselves into thinking we came to a conclusion through logic and reason, when really, we are motivated by the need to justify. So you should always be suspicious of a justification that conveniently happens to justify behavior that otherwise might be considered immoral. In your mind, try to separate the chick-grinding from the meat-eating you want to justify. Watch the video again, and instead of thinking of chicken nuggets dipped in honey mustard, think of a brand new form of life being brought into this world, only to snuffed out before even getting a chance. It doesn't matter if chicks can't feel or experience life like an adult human can - neither can human babies. Yet I'm sure you'd object to throwing them in grinders. This isn't about animal cruelty so much as a fundamental respect for conscious beings.

>> ^spoco2:

The answer is so very NOT a vegetarian/vegan diet, we're built to be omnivorous. It's what we're designed for, it's what our teeth and gut is for.
What we're NOT designed for is the VERY overly processed 'meat products' like pressed meat patties which are only a percentage meat.


I've heard this argument before and it drives me crazy. Are you a religious person? And if so are you trying to convince us that you can't go to heaven if you don't eat meat. I have seen enough vegans/vegetarians live long healthy lives to know that it doesnt matter what we are "designed" to eat.

>> ^wreak_havoc416:
They are babies. Here before humans were...WHy don't we put your babies in a grinder and see how you like it.


If you don't like how chickens are treated, wait till you see how we are with trolls.

Tupho said:

I've heard this argument before and it drives me crazy. Are you a religious person? And if so are you trying to convince us that you can't go to heaven if you don't eat meat. I have seen enough vegans/vegetarians live long healthy lives to know that it doesnt matter what we are "designed" to eat.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

>> ^quantumushroom:
"I'm a Level 5 Vegan -- I won't eat anything that casts a shadow."


So let's see- cellophane noodles, clear bullion, vegetarian jello ...

>> ^direpickle:

Well, to be fair, there are nutrients that humans need that aren't naturally available without eating animals or animal products. Vegans need to (should, anyway--asking for trouble if they don't) take supplements to get their B12.



That is correct direpickle, as far as I know.

Still its really annoying when people who really are intellegent and have otherwise sound values (yes i´m talking about you spoco2:) conclude that we´re just supposed to eat meat. We are not designed to be carnivours, we can choose.

But I don´t think the killing is the real issue. No human knows how animals or vegetables for that sake experience things. We can only assume. It´s the sympthomes of humans fancying ourselves being some kind of superiour existence that make me feel unpleasant. Even if we assume animals experience pain the same way we do, it doesn´t stop us from treating them like shit. Unnecessarily too.

people, if you think this is OK then you've got some hard lessons to learn. A society in decline, engorged on arrogance. All these necessary evils add up.

>> ^dag:
Humans can get by just fine without animal proteins. And as the literature at my local Hari Krishna restaurant says- you could feed the entire world 7 times over if the crops devoted to livestock feed were instead used for human food production.


True, however, animal proteins taste fucking awesome.

[redacted]

>> ^chompyman:
people, if you think this is OK then you've got some hard lessons to learn. A society in decline, engorged on arrogance. All these necessary evils add up.


I suppose you don't eat meat then. If so, you need to realize that your idea of 'evil' is every bit as relative as the meat eaters that are OK with this.

Being a vegetarian you presumably are OK with murdering helpless plants solely so that you can eat them. What's worse is that those plants will die slowly, not quickly like the chicks in this video. Also, unlike these chicks, plants have exactly no way at all to escape or try and flee us, they are completely at our mercy, and people like you show them NONE.

You might think the argument is ridiculous, but the logic of it is absolutely identical to the argument over the treatment of animals that we eat. I know it makes you uncomfortable, but defending animals as somehow special compared to plants is EXACTLY the same as defending humans as somehow special compared to animals.

[redacted]

Plant's do not have brains. I'm not even sure they have sensory abilities.


My argument was supposed to be ridiculous. I'm merely pointing out how little difference there is between believing plants feel pain and believing the animals share the full range of human emotional responses. Pigs have so much sympathy for each other they eat the weak, literally. Maybe a bad example though given how delicious they are the flavour may overpower the guilt they feel.

^ Even pigs can't deny the greatness of bacon. I'm sold. No more eggs for me, just bacon. I don't care if a video comes along showing how inhumanely we make bacon.. my love will endure.

[redacted]

This is the cost of maintaining almost 7 billion humans. It's the cost. Pay it or perish.

When the US incorporated (1776), there were only one tenth the number of people there are now. Eliminate the factory farms and destructive ag then watch five billion people eat YOU.

For the veganoids; destructive ag (deep-till, fertilize, gm seed, irrigate, harvest, repeat) -- the process used to produce your tasty soy curd -- kills more animals than all of the factory meat production combined. Mostly through destruction of habitat. Most species extinction results from loss of habitat to farming so that you have food that makes you smug and makes other people assume you're feeble minded. (Guess what...)

In order for you to be smug behind a steamy pile of curd, thousands of animals are killed outright or die from habitat loss. The great plains now produce wheat, soy, and corn (for now...until the topsoil is gone). Do you realize how many elk, bison, wolves, foxes, voles, skunks, etc. were killed to do this? Do you know what the run-off from those crops does to streams, rivers, and the ocean? Death on a massive scale, that's what. Vegans are the worst hypocrites of them all.

I'll trust a person who likes their chick pulp wrapped in bacon, deep fried, smothered in cheese, and served in a bowl of gravy before I'll waste spit on a hypocritical vegan retard.

I, as another poster here, grow my own food in a sustainable manner (no-till method) and raise my own livestock in a sustainable manner. Where does YOUR food come from?

It's ok to eat animals, but they deserve to be treated with respect.

The problem people have with this seems to be that humans are being more cruel to animals than nature is.

I've watched a lioness in the masai mara kill a zebra. I hope to the bottom of my heart that when I go it's more like these chicks at the hands of the nasty humans than like the zebra at the hands of the lion. Suffering? You haven't got a clue...

The thought that the natural world is somehow better, more caring or whatever you people think is just wrong. The natural world is pragmatic and practical, but not kind in the slightest. Lions hunt buffalo, but they're scared of the horns (as they should be). They deal with this by not dealing with the horns. They attack the rear of the buffalo until it can't stand any longer. Then they start to eat it. Not need to go near the head to kill it, it can't get you, just eat the hind legs first and work your way forwad. It dies after an hour or so of being eaten alive.

I personally don't eat meat produced this way. I think it can be done better, but I also think some people here need to get a sense of perspective. What is going on here is very, very natural. What vegans propose is very, very unnatural.

Hang on, so you admit that we can't get all we need from just fruit/vegies and grain, and yet you then attack me for saying it's not what we're built for???

We ARE built to be omnivorous (not carnivorous as you say). I have NO ISSUE with people choosing to be vegetarian (vegan is a little off the deep end to my thinking, I mean really, do you think a chicken really cares if you use their eggs? Considering my chickens leave them lying around the garden to go off if we don't... I don't think they give a crap)

My issue is with people saying 'The solution is for us all to be vegetarians'. No, that doesn't solve things at all. So, yes we ARE designed to be omnivorous, our bodies need the nutrients gleaned from meat, our teeth are designed to tear meat, if we were purely herbivores we'd have grinding teeth only like cows... and maybe two stomachs.

And seeing as B12 is VERY important for a growing body, and isn't found in ANY part of a vegan diet... well, they can go to hell if they try to tell me it's the way we should all live, because they're taking artificial supplements probably derived from animal products in order to keep up the required vitamins their body needs that they aren't getting because they're not eating meat like they're designed to.

My issue with with those like Peta who put animals over humans, and are hypocritical in what they preach as they have harmed people in the name of stopping cruelty to animals, which seems insane, as we're animals too.

Anyway... I have vegetarian friends, I enjoy vegetarian food, I believe we need to eat more vegetables (you should see the helping we have every night with our meals, and we have our own vegie patch)... but I don't want to cut out meat entirely, I don't think others should be being high and mighty over others who don't want to and feeling all superior for being vegetarian.

>> ^Tupho:
>> ^direpickle:
Well, to be fair, there are nutrients that humans need that aren't naturally available without eating animals or animal products. Vegans need to (should, anyway--asking for trouble if they don't) take supplements to get their B12.


That is correct direpickle, as far as I know.
Still its really annoying when people who really are intellegent and have otherwise sound values (yes i´m talking about you spoco2:) conclude that we´re just supposed to eat meat. We are not designed to be carnivours, we can choose.
But I don´t think the killing is the real issue. No human knows how animals or vegetables for that sake experience things. We can only assume. It´s the sympthomes of humans fancying ourselves being some kind of superiour existence that make me feel unpleasant. Even if we assume animals experience pain the same way we do, it doesn´t stop us from treating them like shit. Unnecessarily too.

Historically, meat was a shortcut to a fuller diet for proto-humans. Not every human population had access to a full array of vegetables that could procure all amino acids, fat (e.g. better bioavailabilty of omega-3-6-9) and proteins necessary for the development of a higher metabolism. In fact, some think that cooked meat was the greatest accelerator, both because of the changes made to the meat by heating it and for the conservation properties of the heat treatment (basically proto-pasteurization).

Of course, using meat nowadays can be considered wasteful, but what we should do is think how to better exploit the available resources (i.e. the domesticated animals) rather than how to stop using them. For example, we could harvest the methane produced by cows, etc. Instead, vegans want to "liberate" the domesticated animals thus letting them take up valuable real estate with no benefit to us. I mean, where do the vegans think all these animals will live when liberated? At the bottom of the sea? Plus, domesticated animals can only live in the ecosystem that they have been engineered for, meaning they can only live in a human-centered environment. If we would let them go, we would have to re-engineer them for wild life... talk about waste!

I support only lethal injection with tasty herbs and breading.

I'm mostly vegetarian. I get most of my food from local sources. I have nothing against responsibly reared meat eating. I feel that the marketplace/consumer based logic that reduces food (and by extension, life) into a commodity is psychotic. It creates overpopulation and over consumption because the market must always expand, becoming more efficient and better tasting and cheaper (newer, sexier, younger). It can justify anything, no matter how horrific, to itself because it is inherently self centred and childish at the same time as being master of the environment. It has no respect for the cycles of nature and will therefore be consumed by nature.

In reply to this comment by Gibletses:
This is the cost of maintaining almost 7 billion humans. It's the cost. Pay it or perish.

When the US incorporated (1776), there were only one tenth the number of people there are now. Eliminate the factory farms and destructive ag then watch five billion people eat YOU.

For the veganoids; destructive ag (deep-till, fertilize, gm seed, irrigate, harvest, repeat) -- the process used to produce your tasty soy curd -- kills more animals than all of the factory meat production combined. Mostly through destruction of habitat. Most species extinction results from loss of habitat to farming so that you have food that makes you smug and makes other people assume you're feeble minded. (Guess what...)

In order for you to be smug behind a steamy pile of curd, thousands of animals are killed outright or die from habitat loss. The great plains now produce wheat, soy, and corn (for now...until the topsoil is gone). Do you realize how many elk, bison, wolves, foxes, voles, skunks, etc. were killed to do this? Do you know what the run-off from those crops does to streams, rivers, and the ocean? Death on a massive scale, that's what. Vegans are the worst hypocrites of them all.

I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense. The bulk of current soy and corn crops right now are used for animal feed, in a process that only produces 1 calorie of meat for every 7 calories of vegetables used. Reducing, or removing, meat production could effectively halve the amount of farmland which needs to be sowed and maintained.

Livestock is the most ineffective way to produce food and nutrition. By reducing it you could effectively support larger populations of humans with fewer crops grown.

Just to hammer the point in, a lifestyle focused on less meat and more vegetables would require LESS farmland and agriculture, not MORE.

Gibletses:
"This is the cost of maintaining almost 7 billion humans. It's the cost. Pay it or perish."
You're smugly hiding behind a steaming pile of bullsh*t. Reading your comments is like watching a bad episode of Fox news. Senstionalist, ignorant and derogatory. It could also be the voice over for a crap movie trailer. Solyent Green for you silly puppy.

In the article it says they're only really miffed by the scalded chicks that got burned in the washer, and that the grinder is accepted method. They would have been better to allow people to document their methods and stand by them in public. This makes them look sneaky as if they're trying to hide something. Which of course they are.

I really thought I'd be a lot more bothered by this video than I turned out to be. This really isn't as horrific as videos where workers are having a good time torturing animals (like kicking them across the room, etc.).

It's not that I just don't care those little guys are suffering so much, but I guess it's an unfortunate aspect of nature. Lots of animals do equally or even worse things to other animals when they're eating them in the wild.

Humans as a species are carnivores. Many people can use their high level thinking to try smothering that fact, but there's no arguing with nature. And unfortunately ugly things have to be done to all things that are eaten (whether plant or animal).

Consider for a moment if M. Night's hypothesis in "The Happening" is true and we discover that plants do feel pain and suffering. Would people stop eating those as well and just eat synthesized food for the rest of their lives?

"supply equals" demand is a logical fallacy. Begging the question "Is Pacman more than just an appetite for destruction?".