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fox news slam President Obama an praise trump over the thing

bcglorf says...

I'm sure you could do the exact same clip from MSNBC showing the praise for Obama being willing to talk and condemnation for Trump doing the same.

To be even more fair, Obama being grossly more competent than Trump makes it a lot easier for MSNBC to be a bit more subtle in their hypocrisy.

MilkmanDan said:

To be fair, I'm sure that examples could be found of media personalities praising Obama/Clinton for similar stuff that they ragged Bush Sr./Jr. for. Best example off the top of my head might be Bush's "terrible war crimes" vs Obama's "brilliant use of drones".

Now, that all comes with a big disclaimer from me. I disliked Obama's expansion of drone bombing, flip-flop in in-office stance vs campaign stance on whistleblower protection, etc. But, I'd still personally evaluate Bush's, uh, miscues as overwhelmingly worse than Obama's. All I'm saying is that there have certainly been talking heads that have been hypocritical in the other direction before.

That being said, this clip takes it to a whole other level. This isn't nuanced, this is blatant. The only rational explanation is that Fox News simply is that biased, shamelessly so (no surprise to most of us). The problem is that Fox News' audience isn't particularly swayed by rational explanations.

I think clearing that "reality distortion field" is something that takes lots of time and lots of indisputable evidence. That's why I basically hope that Trump gets plenty of leash to try (and fail) to fulfill all of his ridiculous promises and self-hype. Nothing like a pointless and decaying border wall to serve as a reminder to be careful about who's cult of personality you get sucked into...

"I would have run into Florida School ... Unarmed" trump

bcglorf says...

It's the Malazan book of the Fallen, a series of books actually.

It's a fantasy series with magic and gods, but it gives a more accurate and unflinching look at human history than any history textbook ever has. It gives a very personal look at soldiers on all sides of wars being waged and the brutal choices forced upon them in very cruel world. Another quote from the series summarizes what sticks with me the most:
"The harder the world, the fiercer the honour."

It's the difference between heroic acts demonstrating actual sacrifices, versus hero's 'risking' dangers that we know will never harm them.

Fairbs said:

what is your favorite book? I'm guessing Hemmingway

the value of whataboutism

bcglorf says...

Back to the video then, Jeremy Scahill is absolutely declaring how evil and horrific GW's foreign policy was, but never makes mention of anything but American evil acts and nothing about their opposition, nor anything about any positives. Analogous to the black violence website proclaiming that blacks are violent because of the evidence presented. If we can agree one is unquestionably false and unethical, they both are.

greatgooglymoogly said:

If a website wants to only publish about black on white crime, I'm fine with that, as long as they aren't saying they are publishing stories about crime in general. Specialization can be a good thing, allowing people to become an expert through time, repetition, and pattern recognition. Talking about all the other bad countries and dictators around the globe can be done by others, it's fine to focus your attention on one, which also happens to be the one we have the best ability to change(ie voting)

"I would have run into Florida School ... Unarmed" trump

bcglorf says...

My favourite book quotes war as being most simply described as:
"Children are dying"

And as you say, when Trump had his chance he ducked, dodged and weaved every which way out of being drafted.

newtboy said:

One word for that nonsense, president hero, bonespurs, you lying sniveling coward.
Forgot *lies

the value of whataboutism

bcglorf says...

I'm not worried about people being confused, more like confirmation bias.

You can get an Alt-Right website that does nothing but post 100% accurate, verified true stories. You can even have them stick to the facts and stay away from any editorialising within their reporting. If they then proceed to exclusively and only report stories about violent crime by non-white or non-christian minorities, they would have loads of content from across the country to publish every day.

I'm hoping that it's easy to see the problem with that?

I'm merely saying you can swap out alt-right for Scahill, and violent crime by minorities for American foreign policy evils and you still have much the same situation.

By definition foreign policy involves the relationship of at least two countries, reporting exclusively on the problems of only one of those countries creates a problem, same as alt-right example.

CrushBug said:

I see the fundamental difference really comes to the target of the "whatabout".

If you are talking about group A and they say "What about group B", then that is just trying to distract/deflect. For example, Trump's comments about the alt-left and alt-right.

If you are talking about Person A and B, and claiming that person B is better, "What about person B's war crimes" is not unrelated. The example of praising Bush over Trump, and Bush's history.

I am not fully convinced that people are confused by the difference, at least the folks that I deal with.

the value of whataboutism

bcglorf says...

In a way Scahill is like a less educated\refined version of Noam Chomsky. He does good investigative work, and dedicates enormous energy into exposing and spotlighting the bad things that America does. That has a place, but without a similarly harsh and critical light being cast on America's targets/enemies it becomes propaganda.

Jeremy says he wouldn't work with Charles Manson to oppose trump, fair enough. What about kind of working with Stalin to defeat Hitler? Say, at least agreeing not to attack Stalin while you both deal with Hitler?

The world is incredibly complicated and the singular and lone focus on American mistakes paints a deceptive picture. Pointing out the problems with America's war in Iraq, like torture and Quantanamo and declaring these as so immoral we needn't even look at Saddam's past is propaganda. Saddam waged two campaigns of genocide against his own people. When America saw the abuses at Abu Ghraib, they shut it down and attempted to punish those responsible. When Saddam's brother used chemical weapons to exterminate Kurdish civilians Saddam commended him for it. Guantanamo is bad, but it doesn't mean we should fail to acknowledge the concentration camps that Saddam operated during his genocide of the Kurds. It doesn't mean it's unfair to observe that conditions in Saddam's prisons across the country were far more cruel during his entire reign.

There's a nuanced place here that Scahill and Chomsky and pundits like them just fail to acknowledge and encourages inaction at times were the lesser evil may well be for America to do something, even if aborting Gadafi's genocide doesn't make Libya a paradise after.

Millennials in the Workforce, A Generation of Weakness

bcglorf says...

Your absolutely right that characterising an entire generation as the 'same' is flawed.

However, I also believe there is more to the whole 'entitled millenials' view than just the bias of 'those darned kids again'.

I think the lumping of generational groups is just a miswording and but reading of the problems facing society at different times. Baby-Boomers as a generation were just people, same as millenials, same as anyone else. The thing is, kids born between 1910 and 1930 grew up in a world at war. Baby boomers grew up in a post world war/cold war era. The societal problems that shaped those times and people still existed, so dismissing the problems as just perception or bias isn't necessarily a good idea.

I've been out of high school 20+ years, and the notion of participation ribbons for everyone was already starting then. The notion that losing or winning isn't important, even if you lost because you were lazy, or won because of years of hard work was already starting. The problem of basically denying hard parts of the real world has been building for 20 years, and the current generation has been buried even deeper in it.

For anyone born in Canada or the USA to cry that no amount of hard work, talent or anything else can help them get ahead and that the system must be changed to help them is insidious. When 80-90% of everyone born in Canada or the USA will never know real hunger, never face homelessness, never have a warlord burn and destroy everything they own, complaining about the inherent injustice of being born where you were as a Canadian or American is just wrong.

The ideology that has grown up in the western world over the last 20+ years has the stink of the rich, entitled world we've enjoyed here. We have a society so removed from hardship, that hardship is working 10 hours a day, 5 days a week to lead a life more comfortable than 90% of the world.

It's not millenials, it is however the society that millenials are growing up in(so all of us).

ChaosEngine said:

Fair points, but I think there’s a big difference between understanding the circumstances of a particular demographic and then assigning characteristics to the members of said demographic.

“Black people are more likely to be pulled over by the police” is a verifiable fact.
“Black people are more likely to commit crime” is a different kettle of fish.

I know that’s not what you’re saying though.

Dad, we've been through this

bcglorf says...

Semites are a race that includes the Arabs the Nazi's allied with so... not so much Semites that Nazi's were against as Jews.

And, your only defence is to basically insist on a variation of, but your accusations against cops are true and fair, but the Nazi's conveniently mischaracterized the all Jews as Zionists.

Or am I wrong and suddenly your pro-zionist all of a sudden here?

You insist that MOST cops are liars, murderers and supporters of same, to the point that exceptions practically can't exist and from postings in other threads it seems not much short of quitting the force in protest is enough distance to escape the taint.

newtboy said:

Semites are a race. Chosen professions aren't.

But ignoring that as you do....
Did Jewish leaders often come out publicly and explain how it's OK for any Jew to lie to you? No? Then not the same.
Did Jewish leaders stand in a wall to protect clear abusers and murderers from justice? No? Then it's not the same.

Again, professions aren't races, for the reasons listed above.

Calm down and look at it rationally. You people are triggered and being irrational.

Also, thanks for acknowledging you're mistakes and handing me the "win" by invoking Nazis. Conversation over, you threw in the towel.

Dad, we've been through this

bcglorf says...

Following your same arguments:
Religions are NOTHING like race.

Actually, pretty much all the bad things you said about cops are exactly what the nazi's said about Jew's and it wasn't racist because jews aren't a race, and it was as true because they could point at the zionists....

You need to acknowledge your going down a stupidly dark road here man.

newtboy said:

"Races" aren't chosen, don't have tests to be sure you have the same psyche as them to become a certain race, and don't insist on a unified front against the world standing with murderers, abusers, thieves, and liars no matter what.
I've never heard of races having clearly defined leaders that make the rules and speak for everyone.
Most important, I've never heard of a race that repeatedly and proudly declares it's OK for them to lie to get what they want.
Professions are NOTHING like race.

And fools, I was intentionally (mis)quoting a famous racist quote.
You triggered people would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Dad, we've been through this

bcglorf jokingly says...

You have to understand it's different because cops ARE all the same...

Anom212325 said:

newtboy you have the exact same mindset as a racist. You feel that a member of a certain group of people wronged you in some manner and now you bundle all of them together. Replace the word Cops with a skin color and you have a typical racist quote...

Why is some racism still ok?

bcglorf jokingly says...

Uneducated ignorant white guys talking about racism.

As every well educated non-trump voting, woke human being knows, racism is only something that can be done from White people to non-white people. Italians and Irish are white cultures and thus you can't be racist against them, by definition.

Samantha Bee - The Actual Forgotten Working Class

bcglorf says...


Only watched through that once, but it sounded like the only working class white males that exist are racists.

I get it, har, har, lets laugh at the white trash working people at walmart and seven eleven who voted trump. You want to make sure that they never vote democrat in the future either? Keep on belittling them and making them the but of every joke.

Secret recording of Canadian Uni blocking free speech

Secret recording of Canadian Uni blocking free speech

bcglorf says...

First article i found on it. Sounds like he linked two facebook accounts on twitter, one of them for posting a picture of some sort of super hateful poster that got put up in Peterson's neighbourhood? Blastedly hard to find bare facts in stuff like this.

kir_mokum said:

can someone verify the claim that peterson "essentially" DOXed anyone? it seems a lot of info is being fabricated, cherry picked, and manipulated.

The Truth About Jerusalem

bcglorf says...


I do think the 'arab world' has legitimate complaints

Gonna stop you there, I never said anything about validity or number of complaints or grievances anyone had. In a better world things like that would matter, in a military conflict though they don't change the outcome.

I see no chance for a single state (where non Jews are sub-citizens with no vote or power) or an Israeli designed two state...

You misunderstand me. I said nothing about the chances of those outcomes working for Palestinians or even being better for them. I stated that whether we like it or not, Israel has more than the required military might to do so and whichever moment they decide the cost of implementing one of those options is better than the status quo they are gonna do it. Do you really see 'no chance' of that happening?

I don't think propaganda is that important to them that they actually prefer their allies suffering to reasonable resolutions, but I don't think that any reasonable resolutions are being offered or even discussed.

Then on this we vehemently disagree. Israel wasn't the only one that expanded their borders in the war in 1948. The Arab Palestinians allies snatched up parcels of land as well. They haven't even considered ceding that land back to facilitate a Palestinian state. In fact, Israel's very existence is pretty widely accepted as being due to the fact that each neighbouring Arab state went to war with the intent of securing sections of Palestine fro themselves and thus each fought independently giving Israel a chance to survive facing off against each of them rather than facing a united coalition in a co-ordinated strike. That they all mobilized their forces and sent them in the second they could to try and get the most land allowed Israel to fight them, with the exception of Jordan whom Israel cut a deal with by agreeing to not fight for the land Jordan wanted so jordan just silently took that part of Palestine for themselves.

In short, the neighbouring Arab states are not true allies to Arab Palestinians.

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