Ah, I was just about to open a Sift Talk post about this one. Been anxiously awaiting it all day.

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Monday, April 5th, 2010 8:42am PDT - promote requested by radx.

There is much speculation online that by posting a date on which they would release footage, Wikileaks forced the Pentagon to admit that they had fucked up elsewhere too.

Thank God for Wikileaks. They have also released a timeline detailing both the events in the video, and the international fallout from the incident.

What a disgusting waste. Stupid children with high tech shit. This makes me very angry.
The work field journalists do is a wonderful thing.
Edit: Riddling wounded people with bullets? Wouldn't that be a war crime? They're clearly no longer a threat. Fuck these guys, I hope they burn in hell.

So American cops can't tell the difference between a mobile phone and a handgun, and the American military can't tell the difference between a camera and a machine gun?

It's pretty worrisome how much they trust the technology - they get a grainy image of a dark blob with a shoulder strap and decide it's a gun, and not just a gun but an AK-47 (and then an RPG).

Nikon et al ought to make a bright orange line of cameras for use in conflict zones, so they have less risk of being mistaken for guns.

- And the pilots ought to be court martialed of course.

The RPG they think they saw was the photog pointing his camera around the corner, but there was an RPG being carried around by another person. I guess just the presence of weapons is all the military needs to justify an attack. I'm sure this shit is going on right now, as we speak, day-in and day-out.

That said, the 2nd attack on the black van is inexplicable. There were no weapons visible. The greater crime (above and beyond the blood-thirsty attack on human beings) is the activity later to cover up the attack.

Can't say I'm surprised. Disgusted and disappointed for sure, but shit like this must happen all the time

EDIT: Also would just like the echo the sentiment that Wikileaks deserves a lot of praise for this.

I want the names of the people's voices. I think this video should be played for every family member.

I think this video should be played at their family reunions for the next 50 years.

Spread. This. Video.

The kids survived even though the military tried to delay their medical care and send them to ghetto hospitals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflAj2txMVQ


Also, 39 minutes of raw video including the Hellfire missile attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik

2 hours 29 minutes for Top 15. Videosift, I love thee!

It's looking more and more like vietnam, isn't it? The american occupying force ought to get the hell out of there.

*quality, not that the video really needs it.

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by gwiz665.

Gee I'm glad these people could die for your top 15 video...>> ^Throbbin:

2 hours 29 minutes for Top 15. Videosift, I love thee!

>> ^rottenseed:

Gee I'm glad these people could die for your top 15 video...>> ^Throbbin:
2 hours 29 minutes for Top 15. Videosift, I love thee!



Wow, I'm glad you can conflate the 2.

As they should be>> ^Throbbin:

>> ^rottenseed:
Gee I'm glad these people could die for your top 15 video...>> ^Throbbin:
2 hours 29 minutes for Top 15. Videosift, I love thee!


Wow, I'm glad you can conflate the 2.

And if you add this to the other 100,00 incidents like it, it probably adds up to..

nothing!

Dick Cheney is munching away on lobster tail right now, and the bush family is pocketing billions for 'rebuilding'.

USA!! USA!!

Do you see in the description where I said "Things like this have to be seen if anything is going to change."? Me being glad people are seeing this video is stated in the video description. The video's momentum tells me people are seeing the video, and going Top 15 tells me more people will see the video. Don't be such an ass.

>> ^rottenseed:

As they should be>> ^Throbbin:
>> ^rottenseed:
Gee I'm glad these people could die for your top 15 video...>> ^Throbbin:
2 hours 29 minutes for Top 15. Videosift, I love thee!


Wow, I'm glad you can conflate the 2.

Ewwww the usual dumb arse comments I see. OH MY GOD isnt that terrible that we give kids masses of weaponry and they USE IT!!! Im going to leave an irate comment about how evil the americans are, then go back to munching my cheap food, buy some cheap petrol and wear these cheap clothes without giving a toss about where they come from. Kids dying in this video? Yeah its disgusting! 750,000 kids dying through malnutrition and a lack of medicine from UN sanctions over 12 years before the war? Well, there was no video of that so that was alright. Who wants McDonalds?

Generally its just a lot easier to promote a video and feel all self-righteous without actually knowing whats happening out there huh. Those nasty nasty americans.

^ You cock-sucking piece of shit.

*promote

Lying murdering bastards

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, April 5th, 2010 11:54am PDT - promote requested by moodonia.

It's pathetic that their magnification isn't good enough to tell the difference between an AK-47 and a camera.

What the fuck are their rules of engagement? From the radio conversations in this video it seems like they'll just murder anybody who has dark skin and is standing anywhere near anybody who's carrying anything about the right size to be a weapon, regardless of who's side they're on. That's so indiscriminate that they might as well use nukes.

Waiting for QM and WP to defend these actions, and spread their awesome wisdom, which means somehow skirting the issue and then screaming something about neolibs and Obama and communism.

Also, you have them asking for permission to fire from someone who doesn't even see the footage or really know what the fuck is going on. What the fuck kind of idiotic procedure is that? Put the delusional trigger-happy-moron on trigger, and have him take orders about whether to fire from somebody who doesn't know anything about the situation except what trigger-happy-moron tells him?

They need to ask for permission in case their command center is aware of friendly units in the area, rather than for a tactical assessment of what they are seeing from the helicopter itself.>> ^jwray:

Also, you have them asking for permission to fire from someone who doesn't even see the footage or really know what the fuck is going on. What the fuck kind of idiotic procedure is that? Put the delusional trigger-happy-moron on trigger, and have him take orders about whether to fire from somebody who doesn't know anything about the situation except what trigger-happy-moron tells him?

Ugh .. have had this here for hours and I am still putting off watching this.

I cannot put into words how insanely depressing and disturbing this is to watch. I am beyond outrage.

Thank you for posting this.

Can't bring myself to watch.

The Guardian ran a piece on it a couple of hours ago, it can be found here. There's also a longer piece available at HP.

The number of hits for a Google news search of "wikileaks" over the last 24h is rather depressing though. I would have thought that in conjugation with the recently admitted fuck-up in Afghanistan, it would make for an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_Chain_Gun

That, my friends, is the wonderful work of our tax dollars!

Look at that M230 Chain Gun go to work! Goddamn I love the effects of 30 MM rounds on target! Fuck man, my hard earned tax dollars are fucking putting them to shame!

The above statements are dark humor and petty sarcasm. I am fuck, shit pissed, that my tax money paid for this. You should be too, fuck the health care bill, fuck the bipartisan bullshit. I think more money should be spent dealing with this shit seen in the video above.

This video shows the endemic entropy of our world. Just wait until your drive to work is monitored by aircraft! Oh, wait it already is!
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/52259

Below is a theatrical representation of what a 20 MM gun does.

>> ^gwiz665:

It's looking more and more like vietnam, isn't it? The american occupying force ought to get the hell out of there.
quality, not that the video really needs it.


All of the wars since Vietnam have been just like Vietnam. But no one seems to give a shit in the US, and if they do they sure as hell don't fucking act like it.

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! /sarcsam

I remember a line from "The Siege" to which this seems appropriate.

"The Army is a broad sword, not a scalpel. Trust me, senator - you do not want the Army in an American city." -General William Devereaux

Replace American city with any army in any city not in a time of complete war. The real tragedy is there doesn't seem to be any hope of it changing any time soon

Way to go to protect US oil interests and keep the USA Free(tm) by invading other nations and killing local citizenry after labeling them as 'insurgents'. ***I blame the racketeers that run the US military war profit machine.*** I don't blame the soldiers.

In Afghanistan... are we at war with Al-Qaeda (a CIA invented name by the way), or the Taliban? Yeah. The Taliban. They may be fundamentalist religious zealots, but Saudis were on the planes in 9/11. I guess that is quickly forgotten. You don't hear Al-Qaeda mentioned all that much anymore do you?

In Iraq are we at war against Al-Qaeda? The Taliban? Neither. We are mostly killing locals who are sick of the US prancing around their country killing people. That isn't our country. We are the foreigner in their lands. We quickly forget that we are the instigators of a blind and righteous romp to 'promote freedom' through use of overwhelming firepower... of course. It changed to that story immediately after the whole WMD lie was exposed and then buried under the carpet. Thanks to short memories and a cloud of propaganda.

The Romans failed at maintaining their empire. The British failed with their empire. The Soviet Union failed in their idealistic communist crusade. Where one fails, another will ultimately emerge to fill the void. Large domineering empires eventually stretch themselves beyond their means. Without people in the USA waking up and seeing what is in front of their noses, the US will stretch itself thin in it's righteous global crusade to prove to the rest of the world that how 'we' think is how others should also think ... and buy US products and be enslaved by massive loans against US banks. Either that, or they can suck on a guided missile.

Though, don't forget. If you don't signify any economic interest to the USA, you will be ignored. Darfur anyone?

So how do you go about stopping things like this? Whenever I speak up about these types of things people just blow me off as missinformed or unamerican or some crap

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

How does the US government defend keeping this classified? I thought secret classification was not to be used to protect politically damaging material? Beyond the atrocity- that's something else that should be investigated. God Bless Wikileaks but in a democratic society this should have been released by the government- and the perpetrators prosecuted.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Here's an interview with one of the WikiLeaks founders talking about the footage:

>> ^dag:

How does the US government defend keeping this classified? I thought secret classification was not to be used to protect politically damaging material? Beyond the atrocity- that's something else that should be investigated. God Bless Wikileaks but in a democratic society this should have been released by the government- and the perpetrators prosecuted.


I understand your frustration with this Dag, but I think we all should hold off on assuming anything about this until WP lets us all know how this is actually a great day for America and her interests.

Besides, the Wikileaks guy has a girls name and funny hair.

>> ^ToKeyMonsTeR:

So how do you go about stopping things like this? Whenever I speak up about these types of things people just blow me off as missinformed or unamerican or some crap


You show them videos like this, show them the hard hitting gore. That's the only way to do it. No one understands words anymore, you have to show them the raw, gristly, crimson spray.

now move the video to New York City and imagine they are banking executives on smoking breaks

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, April 5th, 2010 3:40pm PDT - promote requested by joedirt.

Dag, you are clueless.

Even the UN would rule this a justified shooting. Somehow the US is allowed to shoot anyone on sight of what they think is a gun. It's crazy, but that is what occupation means. No one gets convicted of these war crimes. Look at Gaza, look at Faluja. Look at any prison camp run by US military..

I can't tell if you are being facetious or not, but *MAYBE* the first incident could be justified. The 2nd incident, with the van and no weapons in sight could never, ever be justified by anyone. Any organization or government that tries to justify it should be brought down.>> ^joedirt:

Dag, you are clueless.
Even the UN would rule this a justified shooting. Somehow the US is allowed to shoot anyone on sight of what they think is a gun. It's crazy, but that is what occupation means. No one gets convicted of these war crimes. Look at Gaza, look at Faluja. Look at any prison camp run by US military..

Surprise surprise.

"The Pentagon maintains that no crime was committed and no investigation will be carried out."

I'm not big on writing to your Member of Parliament/Congress - but I think in this case there should be some repercussions.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Yes, sure- use the excuse that they thought the first guy's camera was a gun- that doesn't justify gunning down a whole van of people who were trying to help the wounded. There's just no valid excuse for this. If you listen to audio- these guys are trigger-happy idiots who should be court-marshalled.
>> ^Throbbin:

I can't tell if you are being facetious or not, but MAYBE the first incident could be justified. The 2nd incident, with the van and no weapons in sight could never, ever be justified by anyone. Any organization or government that tries to justify it should be brought down.>> ^joedirt:
Dag, you are clueless.
Even the UN would rule this a justified shooting. Somehow the US is allowed to shoot anyone on sight of what they think is a gun. It's crazy, but that is what occupation means. No one gets convicted of these war crimes. Look at Gaza, look at Faluja. Look at any prison camp run by US military..

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

>> ^deathcow:

now move the video to New York City and imagine they are banking executives on smoking breaks


Now there's a scenario I think we can all get behind.

Unfortunately this all looks legit from the stand point of ROE during the time period. All US forces were cleared for engagement with hostile forces. All events would be judge as seen on the day and not post factum. Its kinda of clear how easily it was to confuse the cameras for weapons given that there were people with weapons present at the same time.

An unfortunate series of events. But not uprising. The cover up is horrific though.

War is hell. Fuck

What you gonna do about it? Thats right, nothing.

Look at the reaction time on those guys that have to live in that environment. They are moving by the time the second or third bullet hits. If it was me I'd be standing there like an idiot watching it all happen.

This is why my fellow Americans piss me off when they start bitching about the 4th of July. Sure, they can support a government that can turn a country into a decade long war-zone (not that it was paradise before). But as soon as a fire cracker scares their golden retriever the party's over.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

War is hell but this not war. It's an invading, occupying empire treating locals with brutality and disregard for their lives. Roman centurians would recognize it for what it is.>> ^Farhad2000:

Unfortunately this all looks legit from the stand point of ROE during the time period. All US forces were cleared for engagement with hostile forces. All events would be judge as seen on the day and not post factum. Its kinda of clear how easily it was to confuse the cameras for weapons given that there were people with weapons present at the same time.
An unfortunate series of events. But not uprising. The cover up is horrific though.
War is hell. Fuck

I'm going to do everything I can to make sure as many people as possible see this video, so that next time some asshole uses the euphemism "Collateral Damage" they'll understand what that really means.>> ^imstellar28:

What you gonna do about it? Thats right, nothing.

War is organized violent action not a fair conflict between two forces. I agree it was an unlawful invasion but nothing was done about it and only shows that imperialism is alive and well today.
>> ^dag:

War is hell but this not war. It's an invading, occupying empire treating locals with brutality and disregard for their lives. Roman centurians would recognize it for what it is.>> ^Farhad2000:
Unfortunately this all looks legit from the stand point of ROE during the time period. All US forces were cleared for engagement with hostile forces. All events would be judge as seen on the day and not post factum. Its kinda of clear how easily it was to confuse the cameras for weapons given that there were people with weapons present at the same time.
An unfortunate series of events. But not uprising. The cover up is horrific though.
War is hell. Fuck

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

My point is that the "war" portion of the invasion was supposed to be over by 2007.
>> ^Farhad2000:

War is organized violent action not a fair conflict between two forces. I agree it was an unlawful invasion but nothing was done about it and only shows that imperialism is alive and well today.
>> ^dag:
War is hell but this not war. It's an invading, occupying empire treating locals with brutality and disregard for their lives. Roman centurians would recognize it for what it is.>> ^Farhad2000:
Unfortunately this all looks legit from the stand point of ROE during the time period. All US forces were cleared for engagement with hostile forces. All events would be judge as seen on the day and not post factum. Its kinda of clear how easily it was to confuse the cameras for weapons given that there were people with weapons present at the same time.
An unfortunate series of events. But not uprising. The cover up is horrific though.
War is hell. Fuck

"Well, it's their fault for bringing their kids to a battle." -psychopathic soldier number 1.

"That's right." -psychopathic soldier number 2.

Inhuman.

@dag, actually this war was supposedly over in 2003. Remember Bush's Mission Accomplished speech? He said on May 1st, 2003 that "In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed."

The incident in this video happened during the surge. I can imagine this kind of thing happened all over the place in 2007, it was the bloodiest year of the "war" to date.

Glad we're withdrawing troops. Wish we were doing it faster, but at least we aren't being told that we need to stay forever, and anyone who says otherwise is a terrorist.

They're supposedly ending combat missions in August.

Question is, did America learn any lessons from Iraq, or will it all get papered over and forgotten?

The most frustrating thing is that it's impossible to watch this video without the context.
I'd love to know what my reaction (or anyone else's reaction) to it would have been if I hadn't known beforehand that "this is US soldiers firing on civilians".

Someone above mentioned ROE, and I wonder what my take would have been just based on the video, and not the prior knowledge of context.

Of course, that leads to the question of what else this gunner has seen - how many positive engagements?
Was this his first time - an anxious, or trigger-happy newbie?
Was it his hundredth time - a routine takedown of just one more band of armed insurgents?

Watching the video might answer some of those last questions for me, but I can't watch it, knowing what happens.

And people wonder why children grow up to be extremists who fly planes in to buildings...

Anyone else see the "military cupid" banner ad at the top? Talk about tasteless.

The most horifying thing is watching the hellfire missiles launched from like a mile away at a bldg with maybe someone inside, maybe not.

You can see innocent pedestrians walking down the street just beofre missile hits, cause they think they saw someone with a gun.

I feel sick to my stomach...

This is exactly why some of us were protesting the war before it began. Just sitting at home in front of our televisions we could see the absurdity of it all, the impending tragedy. We wanted to stop it, but too many of us still trust our politicians to be honest, despite all the lies, year after year, over and over and over.

Of course war destroys the country where it takes place, and of course it is killing untold thousands of innocents in the crossfire, but also look at what has happened to those soldiers. They have been turned into heartless monsters. Imagine the pain of their families when they see this. Imagine the soldiers themselves, and the psychological trauma they will suffer for the rest of their lives. We are not only killing people, we are killing the souls of our own men and women in uniform every time we send them to battle.

Will we ever think of the incalculable human cost before the next war starts? Do we even really recognize what has happened and is still happening now? I weep for the stupidity and self-destruction of the human race. When will we grow up?

how is this new? just jump on LiveLeak.com and there are lots of similar types of videos.

There is an especially bad one of contractors randomly shooting civvies on some highway

Actually, I think that response is pretty human, to rationalize it so you don't have to bear the guilt of something so heinous. It's a common defense mechanism. If they were proper psychopaths, they'd just accept the guilt and not care.
>> ^petpeeved:

"Well, it's their fault for bringing their kids to a battle." -psychopathic soldier number 1.
"That's right." -psychopathic soldier number 2.
Inhuman.

As angry as I am at this series of events, I'm not shocked. And I know that nothing will ever be done about it.

Protesting, writing letters to your Congressmen, sharing videos on different websites...none of this will help. This type of atrocity will never go away, no matter how much we complain.

War is hell, and fools here think that it's okay as long as we're in American heaven.

Keep shopping or the terrorists win, right?

It isn't complacency that keeps this going, it's the overwhelming history of the military/industrial complex pursuing the goals of capitalism--to overthrow the world in the quest for God, gold, and guns.

Those people died in vain, as did many of their fellow men, women and children. And we all paid for it. But that's just the way it is and always will be.

BREAKING NEWS WEST VIRGINIA MINE EXPLOSION!!!!!!!!!!ZOMG LOOK OVER HERE GAISE A MINE EXPLODED!!!

DON'T GO WATCH THAT VIDEO OF YOUR TAX DOLLARS FUNDING THE MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE!!!

FOR FUCKS SAKES A MINE EXPLODED!!!!!

>> ^thumpa28:

Ewwww the usual dumb arse comments I see. OH MY GOD isnt that terrible that we give kids masses of weaponry and they USE IT!!! Im going to leave an irate comment about how evil the americans are, then go back to munching my cheap food, buy some cheap petrol and wear these cheap clothes without giving a toss about where they come from. Kids dying in this video? Yeah its disgusting! 750,000 kids dying through malnutrition and a lack of medicine from UN sanctions over 12 years before the war? Well, there was no video of that so that was alright. Who wants McDonalds?
Generally its just a lot easier to promote a video and feel all self-righteous without actually knowing whats happening out there huh. Those nasty nasty americans.


Ok well, because UN santions did kill millions (numbers are a up for contention). But UN was just enacting the policy of the US (with support from UK)

@thmpa28: You trivialise the point by injecting your immature bullshit into the discussion. You obviously don't have the temperament to engage the peeps of videosift, or even a casual understanding of what you are talking about.

This is the product of remote-control-warfare. It is disgusting.

Tweet by wikileaks a few hours ago:

US mil releases Iraq massacre investigation doc; note the tone. its junk http://bit.ly/cP9eoN

>> ^NordlichReiter:

>> ^gwiz665:
It's looking more and more like vietnam, isn't it? The american occupying force ought to get the hell out of there.
quality, not that the video really needs it.

All of the wars since Vietnam have been just like Vietnam. But no one seems to give a shit in the US, and if they do they sure as hell don't fucking act like it.



This is not true. It took years for significant protests of the Vietnam War to make any sort of impact on the situation in the United States or in Indochina. Before there were significant protests Indochina was bombed into oblivion with tons upon tons of war crimes mounting up, millions of people killed land deforested and people rounded up into camps. Although this horrible shocking footage is damning it doesn't compare to the monstrous brutality and murder on a mass scale that Vietnam was.

People do care, Iraq is the first War America has had that had organized large scale resistance before the War was even declared. It's tapered off due to complacency the outstanding work of the media to push it to the side so successfully and the overall Failure of the Left in this country to keep organizing people and bring about a dedicated resistance. Not having a draft and keeping the numbers there as low as possible has helped the media do it's job and point out that this isn't our problem.

It's not hard to start a resistance against this War...the groups exist and the people are out there. If you don't want to see anymore stuff like this either keep watching Lost or stand up together because this all happens in our name.

I really respect what WikiLeaks does, but naming their website on the issue http://www.collateralmurder.com/ goes against their neutrality. They should just post the information and let the press or the viewers do the judging of the events.
Anyway I'm still going to donate to them as apparently most of their site is now offline due to funding issues.
http://wikileaks.org/

>> ^radx:

Tweet by wikileaks a few hours ago:

US mil releases Iraq massacre investigation doc; note the tone. its junk http://bit.ly/cP9eoN

Don't worry, in about 20 years, we'll have normalized this kind of violence thanks to the Call of Duty Modern Warfare games. Have you guys played those? There's levels which are basically this... you safely in a plane, shooting people through a scope.

Between this and the normalization of torture in 24, we'll all be fine in a few years.

Just getting stuff done folks! America fuck yeah!

sigh...

Ok. So that shooting was justified. How about shooting people coming to their aid. Are you a combatant if you try to pick up wounded? Only the police can help them? I mean couldn't they follow the van?

ALso did you see the hellfire missiles? How many innocent people died because they think they saw someone with a gun enter a bldg. You can count in that video at least six innocent people blown up without any warning.

Also, why can't they shoot some warning rounds, then if they get up or point a gun, you kill them. WHy couldn't they wait for the police to arrive.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> I'm kinda puzzled that they say the "tone" is all it takes to declare it "junk".
Among the things claimed in the report is that there were indeed people carrying AK-47's and an RPG launcher in that crowd of people around the journalists, and that they found the weapons on the scene afterward.
They also claim that journalists are supposed to be wearing specially marked body armor, and are to have their work cleared through the military first so they at least know you're in a particular area, and these two did neither.
They also admit that what was aimed at the helicopter was a camera and not an RPG, but that the furtive nature of how the photographer was acting (tenatively poking his head around the corner, and then leaning out around it with minimal exposure) made it look like it was a weapon being trained on the helicopter, not a camera (a sense I had myself watching this video).
They also say that camera equipment alone doesn't identify individuals as non combatants because insurgents will sometimes bring camera crews to document their attacks.

^ Justified my ass.

Rules of engagement now have gotten so strict that apparently if the bad guys throw down their guns and run away you can no longer shoot at them. So they run away and jump into another weapons stash to kill someone another day.

So why would you fire a warning shot?

Of course in 2007 the rules of engagement would apparently have been a little more "loose" for something like this to have happened. I'm not trained military personnel but I would have mistaken the camera for an RPG peeking around the corner. Plus we (You and I) most likely don't have to deal with the daily grind of being in a war zone and watching a parade of coffins with our friends - or bits of your friends - go back home.
With that in your mind, if you see something that looks even remotely like an RPG you would probably have your finger itching on the trigger too. EOD aren't the only guys that get stressed. Don't know what I'm talking about? Watch "The Hurt Locker".
I'm not saying I condone or agree with what happened, only that I'm not one to judge. My guess is that most people commenting in here aren't either. Certainly without ever having been in combat or in Iraq.

@joedirt, what happened was tragic. It's why I don't want us to start wars in the first place.

But, to a certain degree, this is how war always works. You shoot first, and only ask questions later if you kill people in a way that embarrasses your side.

Will court martialing the Apache crew stop innocents from being killed in the future? Almost certainly not.

Should someone be held accountable for what happened? Sure, but I'm not sure the people pulling the trigger are even chiefly to blame, if they've been trained and ordered to do what they did here.

My reaction to this is "war is awful, we shouldn't do it" not "these specific guys flying the helicopter are evil people".

I also think that if you want to make an evidence based case that these soldiers either individually or collectively (via an over-loose ROE) did something wrong, you should at least address one of the contentions in the official story before you declare it "junk", rather than just basing it on the "tone".

I get that it was just a tweet, but that kind of thing chips away at your credibility, and there's a lot at stake in getting this right.

I guess 'we broke it we bought it', huh? Sigh. We tend to make gods of the men and women in the military. They're humans susceptible to *fear and failure and mistake like anyone else.

I hope soon we stop thinking we're doing good there and just fucking leave.

Adding video to channels (Fear) - requested by blankfist.

>> ^rougy:

^ You cock-sucking piece of shit.


You wish you turd. Why dont you pull your head out of whatever passes for your fantasy world of black and white and smell the roses instead of sucking on the zombie tit of whatever the latest video tells you your opinion should be. After youve gotten out of kindergarden of course.

@ Raaagh

This is exactly the bullshit double speak that the average no-brainer 'wow i just saw a video and it was bad, therefore the whole country is baaaad' crap that makes internet discussions of this type of thing as pointless as the pre-pubescent dick swinging between your legs. So you agree that 'sanctions were bad' k, but 'the UN acted on behalf of the US'. Do you have any clue about the UN at all? About the decades of antagonism with the US, its complete paralysis during the cold war, through massive ethnic cleansing in bosnia where UN peacekeepers sat and watched and pretty much for every conflict ever since? Do you even comprehend the furore that currently exists around the UK and US interpretation of the UN mandate which was by no means a clear signal for war? No you dont, you probably dont know what UN stands for.

As for it being irrelevant, youre right - in your little video world the UN was nowhere in that shot so you havent been told an opinion on it yet. I could talk about 2007 and how the rules of engagement developed to the point the americans wouldnt fire until they had double confirmation of weapons because of incidents like this, about the brits blown up by american friendly fire and what a terrible waste of life war is generally and about a thousand other things that make the off the hand bullshit comments about 'OMG arent the americans evil' from a single clip only worthwhile on places like digg and videosift, but youre right - im not at that level. You sit on your fat consumerist arse and dont give a toss about where that keyboard you type on comes from, where the packaging it was wrapped in is now poisoning entire villages in china who burn it for 5p a sack, nah you just chucked it away. Well this war was fought to keep you in that idiot lifestyle of waste we all live in here in the west and at least i can see it, whereas you call it irrelevant. In all fairness you didnt see it in that video so how would you be expected to use the resource that is the internet for more than just typing crap in your short attention span world.

If its any consolation know i dont give a toss about your opinion, because by this time next week the top sift will be a rabbit that can chew a carrot with its arse and youll be saying its the most amazing this youve ever seeeeennn!!111!!!!

>> ^thumpa28:

>> ^rougy:
^ You cock-sucking piece of shit.

You wish you turd. Why dont you pull your head out of whatever passes for your fantasy world of black and white and smell the roses instead of sucking on the zombie tit of whatever the latest video tells you your opinion should be. After youve gotten out of kindergarden of course.


You're a god damned fascist. You talk like a fascist and you act like a fascist.

You're entire line of reasoning is completely in step with the likes of Hitler and Mussolini.

God damn you to hell.

This war, these wars I should say, have done nothing to "maintain my standard of living" as you imply. Quite the opposite. They have driven my country to the brink of bankruptcy and caused us a great loss in terms of honor and dignity in the eyes of the world.

Fuckers like you brought it to pass.

I stand against you, to the death.

Haha anyone who doesnt agree with you, who calls you on your bullshit is 'a fascist'? do you even know what fascism is? Go out, do some reading, come back when youve grown a clue. But in the meantime, thanks for proving my point about brainless idiots with no idea what theyre talking about.

*edit oh and by the way as much fun as it is trading insults, if you wanna make an ACTUAL point that would at least be vaguely interesting, if your vocab stretches because there are lots oof more fun places I can spend time insulting people.

Outraged at this video? Then I suggest you donate to wikileaks, they appear to be fighting the good fight http://www.wikileaks.com/

@rougy, Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

You're at Anger. Stop.

For everyone else, I'm finding Glenn Greenwald gets my gold star for best commentary on this:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/06/iraq

The real problem this exposes isn't that the guys in the Apache did something out of the ordinary. It's that they didn't.

Appreciate this sift? Please donate to VideoSift! http://videosift.com/support
>> ^moodonia:

Outraged at this video? Then I suggest you donate to wikileaks, they appear to be fighting the good fight http://www.wikileaks.com/

>> ^dag:

How does the US government defend keeping this classified? I thought secret classification was not to be used to protect politically damaging material? Beyond the atrocity- that's something else that should be investigated. God Bless Wikileaks but in a democratic society this should have been released by the government- and the perpetrators prosecuted.


Read "Bomb Power". It'll answer your question, but in short, it all leads back to the Manhattan Project and secrecy surrounding nuclear weapons.

http://www.amazon.com/Bomb-Power-Presidency-National-Security/dp/1594202400

As for the video here, there were clearly people carrying weapons, and depending on a larger set of circumstances, it's possible the initial attack was somehow justifiable. But, firing on that van was pretty heinous. This is the kind of shit that just perpetuates the terrorism we've already created with our lust for oil.

I think you are wrong. The concept of you break it you buy it applies. The US is still in their country killing people. Period. That is all that matters. You lost the ability to say the soldiers were doing their job, in fear for their life.. That doesn't apply when you are still occupying a country and killing citizens daily.

Imagine you lived in Anchorage, how many years of living under Soviet occupation would you tolerate? How many dead Americans would you put up with, every day being murdered by some Soviet occupying force?


I think the only solution is the karmic one. The sons and daughters of these soldiers should be forced to watch this video every year on the anniversary of the murder of these innocent people. If you are still only considering the reuters folks and the van... You need to watch the whole video where they launch rockets into buildings and murder people for another "i saw something in his hand" type death sentence.

I'm sorry. You do not have the luxury to make "it looked like a gun" mistakes when you are raining down death from a mile away in the air. Why not get actual video or real footage? Like from a drone or fly in closer and take a look?

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, April 5th, 2010 6:20pm PDT - promote requested by NordlichReiter.

Or donate to wikileaks as originally suggested. I have a feeling their going to need it after this video...>> ^burdturgler:

Appreciate this sift? Please donate to VideoSift! http://videosift.com/support
>> ^moodonia:
Outraged at this video? Then I suggest you donate to wikileaks, they appear to be fighting the good fight http://www.wikileaks.com/

I swear wikileaks was 10th in google trends hot topics 30 mins ago and now I refreshed the page and it's not on the list.

This is absolutely horrific. Thanks Dubya and Cheney - hope you enjoy your oil or whatever it was you wanted to get out of this.

The Salon article included this quote in "Update IV" at the bottom from someone who served there in the US military:
"90% of what occurs in that video has been commonplace in Iraq for the last 7 years, and the 10% that differs is entirely based on the fact that two of the gentlemen killed were journalists."



That's perhaps the most gripping thing - the kick in the pants it gives people who think this is an "isolated incident" or some other such nonsense.

@NetRunner:

When will you realize that reasoned words and sensible arguments mean nothing to the American fascist?

When will you understand that all of your logical, level-headed rejoinders are wholly ineffective on them?

This is going to come to a head. It has to. They're shaking their guns in our faces already.

They do not respect truth or intelligence; they respect only one thing: strength.

We very well might lose to them again, and it's not going to be because I was getting in their face.

It's because you weren't.

The other point of horror was the bloodlust in the flyer's voice, just before 9 minutes, where he's goading the victim to "pick up a weapon" so that he can resume firing.

I felt sick to my stomach when the van did pull up. If only they knew.

Or, in a more brave interpretation, perhaps they did know what they risked and went ahead with their doomed rescue attempt regardless.

>> ^thumpa28:

Haha anyone who doesnt agree with you, who calls you on your bullshit is 'a fascist'? do you even know what fascism is? Go out, do some reading, come back when youve grown a clue. But in the meantime, thanks for proving my point about brainless idiots with no idea what theyre talking about.
edit oh and by the way as much fun as it is trading insults, if you wanna make an ACTUAL point that would at least be vaguely interesting, if your vocab stretches because there are lots oof more fun places I can spend time insulting people.


You are fascism. The fascist says that it's okay to bomb and kill people as long as you get what you want. The ends always justify the means. And that is exactly what you promoted in your cock-sucking piece of shit post above.

"Im going to leave an irate comment about how evil the americans are, then go back to munching my cheap food, buy some cheap petrol and wear these cheap clothes without giving a toss about where they come from."


You justified the murder of those Iraqi's because you seem to think that we can't munch cheap food unless we shed their blood, or have cheap oil, or whatever else you seem to value as the epitome of the American lifestyle.

And like others here, you justify slave labor overseas because we just can't seem to live without $5 T-shirts and $20 cargo shorts.

It's bullshit. We're not in Iraq or Afghanistan to protect America. Those people weren't killed to protect America.

Yet you justify it as such. I am not the brainless idiot, but I'm surely writing to one.

↑ ↑ ↑ TAP that assss! ↑ ↑ ↑

@rougy, please stop feeding the troll.

@thumpa28, please stop writing like a troll.

Neither of you is actually arguing against what the other person actually wrote. You both look like idiots in this nonsensical exchange of abuse. Just stop.

Seems like the soldiers weren't necessarily that green. They seem to be all to aware of the way their enemy operates. Hit and run and always coming back another day for another fight. The problem is multifaceted:

Technology
The cameras should clearly be in colour and much higher res. Fuck why not 3D?

ROE
Due to the nature of the insurgent and terrorist tactics the ROE have been made so lax that these kinds of incidents are avoided mainly through luck.

The Enemy
As previously noted the insurgents/terrorists use tactics that incorporate civilians to such a degree that they are virtually indistinguishable.

It is however wrong to see the warbands as anything close to a "liberation army" or an instance of "the people" rising up against oppression. The main conflict in Irak is a religious one - and a muslim one at that. However horrific this violent act is, it's peanuts compared to what "the Iraqi people" are doing to each other every day.

I'm with Netrunner - war is hell - avoid it. Don't they read "The Art of War" at West Point?

@rougy, yelling expletives and insults doesn't help anything.

Some people you can't reach. Most people you can. Over time, you might even be able to convince people who started out with their minds completely closed that they should reexamine their preconceptions.

The way you get strength in this country still comes from building the largest group of like-minded supporters you can.

I think the way to do that is with truth, reason, and appeals to basic human empathy.

If the left just starts being as close minded and nasty as the right, do you really think they're going to roll over and submit?

I've never seen a RPG with a telephoto lens before this video. Hell, I've never seen a rifle swing like a camera does on a sling either. When they said he had an AK-47, I thought, "Well that's a fucked up looking AK-47, why is it swinging like that next to his hip? Fucking thing must be bore heavy." The point is, the fucking camera was swinging at an axis with the strap it was connected to, simple laws of physics. A rifle has a stock, well most of the AK47s I've seen, and is not bore heavy.

What I saw was escalation based on assumption. You know what they say about assumptions? They make an ass out of you and me, and in some cases they kill people.

Now, I empathize with the pilot, and gunner at 4:01 in the video. One of the guys appears to be carrying a long object of the cylinder variety. If the video is any indication of what the gunner is seeing then how is he to know that the cylinder isn't a camera tripod?

I've watched this video multiple times, and I have to say given the right primer a person can imagine that they saw an AK-47.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_%28psychology%29

One person's fear, stink, or demeanor can cause a whole shit storm. For instance humans can smell the fear stench of anotherContagious gunfire?

Millions of dollars spent on this technology and a simple problem like contagious gunfire can't be solved. It can't be solved because it is a sociologically evolved symptom of contagious fear, fear is beneficial to genetic survival. That's my observation anyway.

Detach yourself from emotions, think critically and with the mindset that all people are innocent until proven otherwise. That is the only way to minimize innocent death, or capture. That's called a black-list, meaning that something has to be explicitly denied given a certain body of evidence. Conversely a white-list give special privileged to only those that are safe and supported by a body of evidence. Given that the real world is not electronics a white list is not possible, because it philosophy, and inherently denies every one until otherwise. That does not engender itself to support from the masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelist

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/dec/04/smell-fear-research-pheromone


I honestly cannot say that I saw weapons in that footage, because I cannot trust my eyes.
For this I cite the Mind Hacks by Tom Stafford and Matt Webb. Specifically Chapters 2 and 3.

>> ^Krupo:

This is absolutely horrific. Thanks Dubya and Cheney - hope you enjoy your oil or whatever it was you wanted to get out of this.


How easily people forget that it's not just a president and vice president feeding off of the war. There are business men and women, senators and congresspersons from both sides reaping the benefits of an unpopular conflict. Completely expected when military drives government as it has been for the last 50 years. Our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents should have listened to Ike.

That´s such a crazy shit! How can they be proud of themself? They just kill people with a push of a button! They didn´t even know who these people are!

It doesn't make it any less tragic or unacceptable, but at least when our forces kill civilians it's generally accidental.
(Mercenary rogues notwithstanding.)

@Smugglarn

They don't have high res 3d cameras because it is more profitable to have weaponry that cuts through droves of people then to have camera technology able to distinguish them.

This is not unique to America, the 21st century, or any nation, time period, or conflict. This exists, and has existed, in every invasion since the dawn of time. If you support invasion; any invasion for any reason at any time...this is what you are asking for: the sanctioned, unrestricted slaughter and rape of tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions of people.

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Tuesday, April 6th, 2010 5:32pm PDT - promote requested by NordlichReiter.

^^^^^^^"This is not unique to America, the 21st century, or any nation, time period, or conflict. This exists, and has existed, in every invasion since the dawn of time. If you support invasion; any invasion for any reason at any time...this is what you are asking for: the sanctioned, unrestricted slaughter and rape of tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions of people."

Aaaaaand finally, someone sits back calmly, coolly, and spells the shit out for all you posers who shudder to think that the reason you have a computer and can watch porn and masturbate with your mouths is the work of some genie or magical spaghetti comet.

War is Hell, Invasions are allowed by all complicit, life goes on.

Oh and, you all have the power to stop killing yourselves with food.

if you appreciate this sift, consider a sizable donation to me, I need one of those cameras like YouDieJoe has

The guys in the chopper keep saying that the people in the van are picking up bodies and weapons but all I can see is them trying to pick up the obviously wounded individual. This seems to me to be similar to the scenario where a terrorist bomb is planted to cause primary damage and death and then a secondary bomb is detonated to target emergency responders. There may be some valid ROE reason for attacking the van ... but I can't see it.

Appreciate the reasoned arguments in this thread. I've been posting a lot lately on first gut reactions of these kinds of videos - the Gitmo one, and the Fox nuclear coverage - and it's probably good to take a step back and breathe. @NetRunner, you're absolutely right about everything here being terrible, but SOP. This defense posed on Reddit was interesting to read, not that it makes it any less sad:

http://i.imgur.com/twrSH.jpg

http://videosift.com/video/The-World-According-to-Monsanto-A-documentary


The above link is immeasurably more sinister than trigger-happy grunts in occupied Iraq-and fundamentally more important-
Get with the program ya wannabe do-gooders...

Risk all to save the planet, sitting back talking about bullshit gets ya stupider and stupider, and eventually killed.

Update:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6564AR20100607

This is a most shameful episode. It represents failure at every level in the US:
The psychotic pilots were saw what they wanted to see, and either made an incompetent judgement on what they could see, or lied, or both.
* The rules of engagement were clearly misapplied and the chain of command failed to verify that a threat existed.
* The pilots then fired on civilians rendering aid to the wounded, which is a clear breach of US military code and of the Geneva convention.
* They also fired on wounded people who if they represented a threat before the were fired upon certainly didn't once shot with 30mm cannon (a weapon which incidentally should be used on materiel rather than people given that these look like exploding rounds).
* There is no proper investigation and the General lied to Reuters.
* Once the video released the White house and doubtless Pentagon behaved in a shamefully complicit way.
* Finally the US media behaved in an extraordinarily cowardly way. Why is it too shocking to show what ones troops do? If you don't want to be shocked your troops should be properly commanded and controlled?

I think this is a war crime. But who cares what I think? What should happen is that these pilots undergo a Court martial, and if found guilty serve long hard time, and if innocent (fog of war and all that) be exonerated by a court. That presumably is why there are military courts - to test difficult cases?

The bottom line here is that the US needs to sign up and recognise the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court over the US military that most other countries accept, but which the US has failed to ratify, so that its soldiers and indeed the whole chain of command recognise that they are accountable for what they do. Why should US soldiers be exempt from a need to observe human writes in the same way as American Civilians? Only real accountability will prevent this sort of shameful butchery in future.

The thumbnail image for this video has been updated - thumbnail added by vaporlock.