What the fuck is wrong with you people!?

Adding video to channels (Wtf) - requested by gwiz665.

It's really not that difficult...I don't patronize restaurants that automatically add a gratuity. I don't give a -damn- what the party size is...that's simply not their call to make. Or rather, it may be, but I don't have to spend -my- money there.

Most parties over five or so have a mandatory gratuity. Boo on the restaurant for not comping them if the customer is dissatisfied with the service, but a major BOO on these sense of entitlement meat globs for complaining so fervently over a dish being an hour late and having to get napkins. I'm sure if they asked the waitress for napkins, she would've done it for them, but these self-important ass clowns probably couldn't wait because AMERICAN PRINCESSES DON'T WAIT FOR NO ONE!!!!

Yeah. Be nice to your food servicers. It's a thankless job and the tips hardly make up for the frustration.

Pay
better
wages.

Eliminate tips.

^Spoken like someone who has never taken a financial risk in their life. When you open your restaurant, gwiz, you can do it that way if you like. But, the system is set up so the wait staff makes most of their money from gratuity.

Better wages wouldn't really work in the food industry. It's a tough racket, and restauranteurs typically couldn't afford to pay the wait staff minimum wage. And raising the menu prices would mean less customers and eventually less customers eating out.

It's not a tip if it's compulsory - it's a tax. It should be rolled into the total and not hidden as a 'gratuity'.

Full disclosure: compulsory tipping is up there with the 'guns don't kill people' aspect of American culture that makes no sense to me.

Yeah, the problem is the customary tipping that comes with unfair wage laws. Servers rely on tips to make a decent wage which creates a custom of tipping regardless of service quality. We should switch to how things are in Europe... sit down service will cost you more money (a fixed amount stated up front), but tipping itself is only for exemplary work... and not nearly as expected as it is here in the states.

Ultimately service costs money since you have to pay the server... so its better for everyone (both folks that want to pay less but not get service, and folks that want the extra attention of a server) to just make it a policy so there isn't grey area.

^ I hope the restaurant has their asses handed to them in court. Compulsory tip is bullshit, and should have been removed from the bill immediately upon the customer's complaint.

blankfist, she stated very clearly that the waitress "never came back". Waiting an hour for food, failure to receive utensils, and being ignored by waitstaff is unacceptable. I don't care how busy the place was.

In most situations, I agree that being nice to your server and tipping well is important. But bad service should never be rewarded, no matter how sucky their job is.

I hope we find out the resolution of this case.

>> ^blankfist:
^Spoken like someone who has never taken a financial risk in their life. When you open your restaurant, gwiz, you can do it that way if you like. But, the system is set up so the wait staff makes most of their money from gratuity.
Better wages wouldn't really work in the food industry. It's a tough racket, and restauranteurs typically couldn't afford to pay the wait staff minimum wage. And raising the menu prices would mean less customers and eventually less customers eating out.


Make a better society. Works pretty good in Europe.

And now the little Irish Pub will be famous for... LOUSY SERVICE, thanks to the news for covering the story. Perhaps the reputation will be deserved.

Karma strikes again!

I've got to side with the business on this one. If you go to a restaurant that requires you tip, then don't act surprised and angry at the end of the meal when you get your bill.

I think the non-paying party is completely in the right here. Not just morally, which should be obvious, but legally.

Quoting this NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/15/nyregion/15tipper.html
"As it turns out, a tip is just a tip, even if you put "mandatory" in front of it.

Charges were dropped yesterday against a Long Island man who was arrested last week for failing to leave a required 18 percent gratuity at Soprano's Italian and American Grill in Lake George, N.Y.

The Warren County district attorney, Kathleen B. Hogan, said that she had determined that the man, Humberto A. Taveras, could not be forced to pay a gratuity.

Ms. Hogan said, "A tip or gratuity is discretionary, and that's what the courts have found."

It really chaps me when apologists condone this weasel behavior (mandatory tips) by pretending it's some sort of "contract" because of fine print on a menu. Yay for Internet lawyers who have no idea what a contract is. Here's a tip: the corporations want you to believe that anything they put in fine print or post on a sign is a "contract", but it's not.

Sorry for the copypasta, but someone needs to point this out.

gra⋅tu⋅i⋅ty
  [gruh-too-i-tee, -tyoo-]

–noun, plural -ties.
1. a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.
2. something given without claim or demand.

Indeed, gratuities are, by definition, optional and without obligation. "Mandatory gratuity" can't exist anymore than "required volunteering." Why did the police think this was a case of theft? Shame on the arresting officer(s) and the motherfucking cunt running that place.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
I've got to side with the business on this one. If you go to a restaurant that requires you tip, then don't act surprised and angry at the end of the meal when you get your bill.


That is the point. You should not (and in all likelihood *cannot*) be "required" to tip. They were surprised and angry by the service not the included tip, and the it should have been removed from the bill as soon as the customers complained. None of this "If you don't pay it I'll call the police" bullshit.

The saddest part is that they said they will pay the tip if the problem ever comes up again. Maybe they'll change their minds if they win the court case.


Edit: Check out the utter destruction on Yelp!

I'm no huge defender of capitalism, but when you exchange money for a product, and then consume the product, you shouldn't have a right to a discount or refund just because you didn't like the product or how it was served, unless that was a previously agreed upon condition to buying the product. Just pay the 16 bucks and stop going to busy college pubs with large groups on the weekend.

Also, if a tip becomes mandatory, then it isn't really a tip anymore, it's part of the agreed-upon cost.

That said, calling the cops to recoup 16 bucks is a little extreme.

It's easy to complain about a business when you've never invested money in a venture yourself. Most business owners are NOT billionaire fat cats with top hats and monocles. Most are working to make a living, and a lot of restauranteurs make less than the servers because of the debt and having to pay worker salaries first before paying theirs.

That aside, when these customers sat down to order they agreed to the mandatory tip. It would've been wise for the restaurant to comp them when they complained, but they certainly are not obligated to do so.

I rarely tip less than 20% unless the service is terrible. Even when mandatory I tend to add to it. I suppose I should move to Europe where they "make better society" and then I'd never have to reward people for their good work.

This american tipping system is so fucking pathetic it hurts.

And as usual blankfist is wrong.

Just raise the salaries, and raise the fucking menu prices to cover the tip. THEN it's up to the client to decide if the staff deserves an actual tip. My wife has worked as a waitress, and she agrees that mandatory tipping is completely stupid. But of course over here where we "make better society" we actually prefer to pay people properly, even if the country is modest.

And over here, you don't tip based on the price of the meal. You tip accordingly to the service... as it should be.

>> ^blankfist:
Better wages wouldn't really work in the food industry. It's a tough racket, and restauranteurs typically couldn't afford to pay the wait staff minimum wage. And raising the menu prices would mean less customers and eventually less customers eating out.

>> ^blankfist:
That aside, when these customers sat down to order they agreed to the mandatory tip.


In my view, when the restaurant adds a compulsory 18% increase to the menu price but doesn't put that on the menu so that the prices seem cheaper, it's nothing short of fraud, even if every single restaurant out there does the same. It's all right to defend the plight of the restaurant owner who adds an oxymoronic mandatory gratuity, but when you purposefully hide the added cost on the menu, you're not exactly innocent.


>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
...when you exchange money for a product, and then consume the product, you shouldn't have a right to a discount or refund just because you didn't like the product or how it was served...
Also, if a tip becomes mandatory, then it isn't really a tip anymore, it's part of the agreed-upon cost.


How are you not entitled to an opinion of the product you received? If a gratuity is included in the bill, that implies that the service itself is a product. The same point I made to blankfist applies here, imo. If you bill the customer for the service but hide it from the menu cost of the food, why is it assumed that the customer knows about the 18% gratuity before receiving the bill? Is there a big sign at the entrance saying "18% mandatory gratuity. Beware, all ye who enter here"?


My main point has already been made by others. If you make something mandatory, it's no longer a tip or a gratuity, even if you call it that.

This is why I fucking hate the concept of "tipping". How is something that's "mandatory" a tip? Either include it in the bill and get rid of tipping or make ALL "tipping" optional.

Thank Christ we don't have the stupid fucking concept here.

>> ^MaxWilder:

Edit: Check out the utter destruction on Yelp!

My favorite is This one, not exactly non-fiction, but I was LMFAHS.

Edit: the photos are pretty sweet too.

After watching far too many episodes of Kitchen Nightmares I think that them worrying over a $16 will now be the least of this pubs concern. They should have just comped the tip after taking the bill and now they will likely lose far more in negative publicity.

So you take their money anyways and THEN call the police? Sorry, dick move on their part. By the way, I've worked for small business before and I know how it is. You win customers by providing good service, and lose customers by providing shit service. Simple, end of story.

Hell, I once had a dining experience that would make Mr. Pink want to shoot up the entire resturant and without me asking the manager not only comped the meal but also offered free desserts on top of it. This is how you get people to keep coming back despite the fact you just lost money in the short term.

Haha the first photo on yelp for this place is a pair of handcuffs.

The internet is hilarious sometimes.

>> ^blankfist:
It's easy to complain about a business when you've never invested money in a venture yourself. Most business owners are NOT billionaire fat cats with top hats and monocles. Most are working to make a living, and a lot of restauranteurs make less than the servers because of the debt and having to pay worker salaries first before paying theirs.
That aside, when these customers sat down to order they agreed to the mandatory tip. It would've been wise for the restaurant to comp them when they complained, but they certainly are not obligated to do so.
I rarely tip less than 20% unless the service is terrible. Even when mandatory I tend to add to it. I suppose I should move to Europe where they "make better society" and then I'd never have to reward people for their good work.


I think you are twisting my words. I know that restaurants are not a big faceless corporation with tons of cash and so on, that's not the issue. The issue is that a tip should not be mandatory - then it is a bill or a tax, or even as demon_ix says, fraud. "When they sat down they agreed to the mandatory tip" how should they know that? Did the restaurant advertise it to them or is it just implied? If all prices just happen to me 20% more expensive than what's listed, I'm inclined to say it's fraud too.

As a libertarian, I would have think you agreed with me on this, but a tip should not be a tax, it should be a donation. If you want to give the servers, the cook etc. extra money you are free to do so over here too, but it is your own choice.

When restaurant owners rely on tips to make up a decent wage for their employees, they are profiting on their employees good service instead of the employees doing that. That's (bad) exploitation. I like the more direct approach in Europe, where waiters get to keep the tips themselves on top of their wages, which would be enough. I suppose it's different when the minimum wage is almost $20, hence my "make better society".

*quality discussion, btw.

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by gwiz665.

>> ^gwiz665:
I think you are twisting my words.


No. Your words were "make better society". As in "let us social engineer society the way we want it." And then you thumped your chest with your continental pride of Europe.

My point was if you don't want to eat in a restaurant that has a mandatory tip for parties over a described number, then don't visit it. You have options; don't be so arrogant. A small business cannot levy a tax. I don't know where you're getting this bad information. They can only add charges. I wish my ass had lips like yours.

If you don't like tipping, don't go out to eat. It's that simple.

You think you have a grasp on the system? Try talking to a waiter or waitress about it. (outside of their workplace) When you work in the industry for years, you get an almost sixth sense of the people who are going to tip and the people who aren't. If you knew the rules that most waiters use you'd probably find them to be completely racist and xenophobic but most food industry workers use the system to detemine who they're going to care about and who they aren't. Even if they won't admit it.

And if you think that's bad, I don't even want to get into what happens when a person who isn't likely to tip starts complaining. It turns my stomach just to think about it.

Whatever ideas you have about tipping, just remember that your waitr/waitress has they're own. And they're probably going to follow their own system rather than yours. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

That said, if you're a nice, reasonable customer, most servers aren't going to care what you tip them. Unless their weed supply is low.

So, before I go and read all the comments here...
My stance is a tip is something given for good service, "at my leisure!"

1). I only pay tip if the server actually takes the time give us/me good service.
2). The Tip amount depends on the level of service or amount they went out of their way.
3). Sometimes I just don't have the spare cash and can't pay a tip. they are lucky I even made it to the restaurant at all.
4). I usually tip 10-15 percent or just round-up to an even dollar amount. My choice!
5). My rule, anyone who mentions a tip, never mind demands one - GETS NOTHING!

Now, I'll go read the comments!

Why should restaurant staff feel entitled to get paid more than construction workers? I've had stints as both, and they're both pretty thankless. Tipping is a self-serving loophole engineered by restaurant managers.

If there weren't a million people vying for those jobs, pay would go up, the trivial work would then be increasingly automated, and humankind would be spared a life of drudgery. In agriculture, the US doesn't use some time-saving automated technology that's used in Europe and Japan because we have so many folks vying for those jobs that it's cheaper to pay them than to buy the existing technology.

Tips are voluntary or they are not tips. End of story.

A mandatory tip is just another bill. And it's a bill that's hidden from view until you have to pay. I'd say that's pretty low and if any other industry did it, people would be as outraged as I am now.

OK..., So after reading all the comments...
It's still choice, as I see fit!
Don't get me wrong, I tip 80% of the time but it dependent on my choice and the level of my bank account.

-ALSO
I believe the restaurants here in Canada charge more for a meal than they do in the US.
An adult meal can cost $12 - $25 before drinks and appetizers depending on the restaurant and the dish served.
Ad the $3-$4 for a bottomless pop, $8-$10 for an Appy, maybe another $5-$7 for a desert
(I'm not even going to count alcoholic drinks, $5-$8 per glass)
That's about $28 - $46 per person for everything. Adding an 18% tip ($5.04 - $6.28 per person) can and is a big deal to the average family.

A budget spender can get away with an average $15-$20 per person at a sit-down cafe, but a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids) still spends about $40-$60 for dinner at a restaurant while fifty dollars will buy you 3 meals a day at home for 3-5 days.

My point with all this is, leaving a tip costs me money. I spend my money as "I" see fit. If for some reason, I don't/can't leave one (this time),it will be my choice. Those which work in this environment (survival of the fittest), learn to give good service or suffer a lower paycheck. If the waiter/waitress is overworked because it is busy and can't give good service is more a reflection on the business/sweatshop for not providing proper staff coverage. It is not my job to compensate for their shortcomings.

I must also mention (off on a tangent): If I am with a larger group, we phone ahead or if it is on-the-spot, we ask if "it will be a problem" before even being seated. Either you can handle our group - or you can't.

If you don't agree to the prices, don't visit the restaurant.

Say in advance that there's an extra bill equivalent to 20% of what you spend on food, and people wouldn't go there either. I sure wouldn't.

^Well, most people tip. If they bring a large group of ten people, I think most of them are okay with a compulsory gratuity. If not, then they can go home and get the food from the grocery store and cook it themselves OR find a restaurant that doesn't have a compulsory gratuity.

^ I don't have a problem with the idea of "compulsory" gratuities, but it has to be contingent on the quality of the service. Bringing 6 or more people into an establishment should not give the house free reign to give you shitty service. It's only as compulsory as the customers are willing to allow it to be. It's not a service charge, therefore it's not stealing if a customer refuses to pay it.

I believe in tipping, I'm a good tipper. If you can't afford the tip, then you can't afford the meal, that's what I say. But if I get bad service, I certainly let the waiter/restaurant know it, and I will tip according to the response.

Wow, where do all you people live that you have such terrible service? I have had bad service maybe once in every eighty times I go out. And even then it's not abysmal, just not great.

I'll be sure to stay away from wherever it is you're all at. Did I hear someone say the great "make better society" Europe?

I live in North Carolina... I would stay away from here too, if I had the choice.

Yeah, I was itching to get out of that town when I lived there. You should move somewhere cooler, like Asheville or Wilmington or Charlotte.

>> ^blankfist:
If you don't agree to the prices, don't visit the restaurant.


I'm pretty sure they did agree to the posted prices. The problem was they were told that the gratuity was nonsensically mandatory, despite the lousy service they received. This isn't rocket science.

I have no problem with a restaurant adding an extra fee if you are a big group, but I have a problem when they try to call it a tip or gratuity. That's the whole issue, it's not gratuity, it's a bill. I pay tips in restaurants when I've gotten good service, or we had difficult orders or whatever - but I CHOOSE to pay it, I'm not forced to it.

In all honesty I usually get good service. We mostly eat in Durham or Chapel Hill, lots of good places there.

Specific anecdotal example: A night out last week we got seated and didn't see a waiter/waitress for something like 15 minutes. It wasn't late, and the place was half-full, but it turns out that the hostess had seated us in the section of a waitress who was on her break. Hostesses mistake, no big deal. So the manager is walking around asking people how they are doing, and I jokingly mentioned that we'd be a lot better with beers in front of us. He apologized and took our drink order, and appeared in minutes with beers and an app.

The meal turned out great, everything was good, and I was perfectly satisfied. Then they comped the meal, which was ++. In return I left a tip equal to twenty percent of the original value, and good reviews on appropriate food blogs.

In the scenario described in the original video, the primary problem is an overall lack of communication from all parties involved.

>> ^Xax:


I'm pretty sure they knew of the mandatory gratuity. It's most likely on the menu, large parties are typically told when they are seated, and precedent has been set in the industry over this, so this isn't an isolated case.

The manager should've refunded their money or revoked the gratuity. Still, he's not obligated to do so seeing how the price was agreed upon, and thus in the long run his bad business decision will probably cost him.

It's not rocket science.

Perhaps the patrons were simply confused. Which is it: a mandatory fee, or a gratuity? It can't be both. If they want to charge an 18% service fee, that's what they need to call it -- and make sure patrons are aware of it before being served, and then deliver the good service they're charging for. If patrons don't receive what they pay for, should they be required to pay it?

Trying to sneakily twist words into meaning the complete opposite is just asking for trouble, hopefully of the legal kind.

It shouldn't matter if the "Mandatory" was posted or not. A tip is a reward for good service/going above and beyond. I absolutely wouldn't pay it either if I received bad service - period!

There is no argument that would convince me otherwise - I'm close minded on this stance!

What other business or service industry demands a mandatory tip? Imagine...

1). Valet - Yes sir we parked your car, but you can go find it yourself, we're kind of busy right now - By the way, I demand a tip before you go looking for your car.

2). WalMart - I have no idea if we carry that. No, I don't have time to find out for you, but if you find it, we're adding an 18% gratuity to your bill on the way out.

3). Paperboy - I don't care if your paper arrives 3 days late on every issue, I'm a busy guy. By the way, you owe me a tip!

4). McDonnalds - I added napkins and a straw to your order, that will be an extra 18% or I take the food back.

5). Jewelery Store (yes, retail does pay minimum wage) - That will be $300 for the ring and we're adding on an extra 18% because we've decided we're such nice guys.

I could go on...

I've dine and ditched at a place when we were waiting for our bill for over an hour. You know what, if you're too busy to bring me my bill, then you can afford to pay it for me. That being said, usually the receipt will declare that the 18% gratuity for a party of X or greater is included and they add it to your total for you thus eliminating some of the confusion. I do agree that they should have been comped.

>> ^gwiz665:
I have no problem with a restaurant adding an extra fee if you are a big group, but I have a problem when they try to call it a tip or gratuity. That's the whole issue, it's not gratuity, it's a bill. I pay tips in restaurants when I've gotten good service, or we had difficult orders or whatever - but I CHOOSE to pay it, I'm not forced to it.


Your opinion is skewed because 1) You don't live in America, and 2) You didn't work in the terrible food industry of America.

Before you start downvoting me and before you stop reading what I have to say, let me explain: I'm not against you not being American, (because that's a simple-minded way to go about judging people) but the food industry here is bullshit and the system (for lack of an actual person to blame) forces workers into this reality. When a tip is not paid by a customer, it's akin to docking a worker's pay. I know it doesn't make that much sense, but it's how things turned out over here. And it's as simple as that from a restaurant worker's perspective.

My next point is also important to your understanding: The total tips that a waiter/server makes at the end of the day is split up amongst the food runners, bussers, and barback, so not tipping has a trickle down effect to people who may have done their share of work yet who rely on the waiter to make their fair share.

It really is a shitty shitland of shit for the workers who live by these rules. I fault your ignorance of our food culture, not your ability to reason. I'd love to adopt the system you envision, but that means nothing in the short term and isn't too realistic.

>> ^blankfist:
Better wages wouldn't really work in the food industry. It's a tough racket, and restauranteurs typically couldn't afford to pay the wait staff minimum wage. And raising the menu prices would mean less customers and eventually less customers eating out.


How is arbitrarily multiplying the bill by 1.18 any different than raising the prices? Aside from not being apparent ahead of time, that is.

This is pretty much a poster child for a good picketing. They absolutely should do it. Hand out literature at the picket describing what occurred. I guarantee you will cost them far more money in lost business than they would have lost in the mandatory tip. I believe there are even organizations that have will have volunteers picket for good causes. They should seriously do that.

By the way, In Canada,

we already have added to our bill a mandatory 5% GST (Good and Service Tax)
effective July 1, 2010, this tax will be replaced by a mandatory 13% VAT (Value Added Tax)
Now who's killing the local restaurant businesses...

$50.00 Restaurant Bill
$06.50 Mandatory 13% VAT
$09.00 Mandatory 18% TIP
$65.50 TOTAL
That's quite a difference to the price listed on the menu.

Reminds me of my cell phone bill.
A $30 per month plan with all connection fee, the service fee, the 911 fee and minute plan ends up coming to $80 per month, yet they still advertise it as a $30 per month plan. And that's a stripped down plan - no messaging or caller id.

>> ^Xax:
Perhaps the patrons were simply confused. Which is it: a mandatory fee, or a gratuity? It can't be both. If they want to charge an 18% service fee, that's what they need to call it -- and make sure patrons are aware of it before being served, and then deliver the good service they're charging for. If patrons don't receive what they pay for, should they be required to pay it?


If I got my hair cut, paid the girl that cuts my hair twenty bucks tip, then later that day called my bank to cancel the charge because I disliked the service, wouldn't I be in the wrong? What if I agree to a mandatory 15% gratuity before ordering the meal, then eat all the food I order and decide to not pay the gratuity because I disliked the service?

The subtle difference between these two is that in one instance you have an opportunity to "experience" the service before tipping and the other you agree to tip beforehand. Either way, you agree to it.

In my personal opinion, if the management knows anything about good business, they should just comp the patrons and be done with it. Nothing good comes from taking a moral position against the customer. Ever.



>> ^xxovercastxx:
How is arbitrarily multiplying the bill by 1.18 any different than raising the prices? Aside from not being apparent ahead of time, that is.



Because they don't add the gratuity unless there's a larger group of X amount or more. I've explained that a couple times. I'm not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion everywhere you go they add a compulsory gratuity to your meal. It's only under certain conditions.

>> ^poolcleaner:
The total tips that a waiter/server makes at the end of the day is split up amongst the food runners, bussers, and barback, so not tipping has a trickle down effect to people who may have done their share of work yet who rely on the waiter to make their fair share.
It really is a shitty shitland of shit for the workers who live by these rules.


Yeah, I have a shitty job with shit policies and shit pay, too.

I totally agree it's a shitty deal for workers who live by those rules. Who is responsible for those rules? Is the customer to blame? Am I supposed to feel bad about it? It's unfortunate, but place the blame where it is due.

I think it's reasonable to be annoyed that I, the customer, am expected to pay part of the server's wages as a courtesy to the restaurant owner/industry. Lazy/asshole restaurant owners need to pay their employees properly and stop passing the buck onto their customers.

I hate knowing that my tip is evenly distributed to everyone else, including other servers. It's a corrupt and unfair system. Where's the incentive to provide good service?

blankfist loves to tip because he's so goddamn free

>> ^poolcleaner:
>> ^gwiz665:
I have no problem with a restaurant adding an extra fee if you are a big group, but I have a problem when they try to call it a tip or gratuity. That's the whole issue, it's not gratuity, it's a bill. I pay tips in restaurants when I've gotten good service, or we had difficult orders or whatever - but I CHOOSE to pay it, I'm not forced to it.

Your opinion is skewed because 1) You don't live in America, and 2) You didn't work in the terrible food industry of America.
Before you start downvoting me and before you stop reading what I have to say, let me explain: I'm not against you not being American, (because that's a simple-minded way to go about judging people) but the food industry here is bullshit and the system (for lack of an actual person to blame) forces workers into this reality. When a tip is not paid by a customer, it's akin to docking a worker's pay. I know it doesn't make that much sense, but it's how things turned out over here. And it's as simple as that from a restaurant worker's perspective.
My next point is also important to your understanding: The total tips that a waiter/server makes at the end of the day is split up amongst the food runners, bussers, and barback, so not tipping has a trickle down effect to people who may have done their share of work yet who rely on the waiter to make their fair share.
It really is a shitty shitland of shit for the workers who live by these rules. I fault your ignorance of our food culture, not your ability to reason. I'd love to adopt the system you envision, but that means nothing in the short term and isn't too realistic.


Whether it actually is that way or not is not in question. Whether it is a bad thing is. And it is a bad thing. Like I said earlier, make a better system.

If they merely called it "staff fee" or something, then everyone would know what it was, but to disguise it as something nice, a tip, a donation, is deceitful. I don't blame this particular restaurant, I blame the system. Hence my, make a better society.

Just because some countries have sweatshops doesn't mean they should.

Blankfist, you keep coming back to "the agreed upon cost" as if they had a contract that they had to pay the mandatory tip. That's not the issue for me at all. If it said loud and clear on the menu, or they told me when I got in, that there was the extra fee of 20 %, I would just leave again immediately. I would not have my food and THEN refuse to pay the tip, then you are right, I would be in the wrong. That's not my argument. My argument is when NOTHING is mentioned and when the bill comes, it's 20 % more than what you could figure out from the item prices. That is deceitful.

ya i'm with Mr Pink, "two words for ya, 'learn to fucking type'"

>> ^gwiz665:



When you order food are you not agreeing on the price for services and goods (without signing a contract)? And it should clearly marked on the menu (and sometimes by the hostess station or on the wall) 'for parties of x or more a y percent gratuity is added'.

Therefore The gratuity is agreed upon before you order. The princes and princesses in this video most likely were well aware of this but made up their mind to protest because their napkins weren't on the table when their food arrives. That's not bad service. That's a simple oversight that would've been easily rectified if given the opportunity instead of them showing their butts.

I don't personally agree with mandatory gratuity, but it exists, and if I agree to eat at the restaurant with a large party, I have to pay for it. Or I could move to a "make better society".

So many comments. So little service. It's about the service people...

It seems like you guys are arguing somewhat different things here, which may be why this exchange has turned a bit sour.

Reading Blankfist's posts, it appears he's arguing that in this specific case the restaurant was in the right. Seeing as how the extra charge was clearly made known to these customers well before they ordered their meal, I'm 100% in agreement that they're liable to pay their bill, regardless of the service they received.
However, what Gwiz seemed to be arguing is the theoretical scenario in which a restaurant adds a charge without telling the customer beforehand, effectively tricking the customer into a situation where they have to pay more than was advertised and therefore not giving the customer the chance to take their business elsewhere. If I got that right I'm in 100% agreement with Gwiz aswell.

The key word here is communication. A restaurant has the right to add whatever charge it likes, aswell as raise their prices as much as they like. I've no problem with paying an extra 18%, so long as the restaurant has made it clear that this is their practice. This can be done with a note in their menu, a few words from a staff member or whatever. Knowing that there is an extra 18% charge on top of the total price gives the customer the opportunity to decide whether or not to eat there. But getting a table, ordering the food, eating it and getting the bill before finding out this extra expenditure is not acceptable business practice in my opinion.

^Yeah, I get that gwiz (and others) think somehow this mandatory tipping thing happens with every meal purchase in the States and done so to bamboozle the customer with hidden charges when the check arrives.

I have tried to illustrate, however ineffectively, that this is not the case, and that this is an agreed upon service charge (mandatory tip) before the patron begins his dining experience.

all your comments suck. the real funny is the restaurant calling the cops on the customers. they know that's only way they will get tips.

>> ^blankfist:
It's easy to complain about a business when you've never invested money in a venture yourself. Most business owners are NOT billionaire fat cats with top hats and monocles. Most are working to make a living, and a lot of restauranteurs make less than the servers because of the debt and having to pay worker salaries first before paying theirs.
That aside, when these customers sat down to order they agreed to the mandatory tip. It would've been wise for the restaurant to comp them when they complained, but they certainly are not obligated to do so.
I rarely tip less than 20% unless the service is terrible. Even when mandatory I tend to add to it. I suppose I should move to Europe where they "make better society" and then I'd never have to reward people for their good work.


Blah blah de blah blah. It's easy to make personal attacks instead of a cogent argument.

That last part is just bullshit. We pay tips in Europe, or Denmark at least, but only if the service was over average. Our restaurant industry is better, because if you don't get a tip, you don't starve. You are rewarded for good work, not punished for bad work.

>> ^poolcleaner:
>> ^gwiz665:
I have no problem with a restaurant adding an extra fee if you are a big group, but I have a problem when they try to call it a tip or gratuity. That's the whole issue, it's not gratuity, it's a bill. I pay tips in restaurants when I've gotten good service, or we had difficult orders or whatever - but I CHOOSE to pay it, I'm not forced to it.

Your opinion is skewed because 1) You don't live in America, and 2) You didn't work in the terrible food industry of America.
Before you start downvoting me and before you stop reading what I have to say, let me explain: I'm not against you not being American, (because that's a simple-minded way to go about judging people) but the food industry here is bullshit and the system (for lack of an actual person to blame) forces workers into this reality. When a tip is not paid by a customer, it's akin to docking a worker's pay. I know it doesn't make that much sense, but it's how things turned out over here. And it's as simple as that from a restaurant worker's perspective.
My next point is also important to your understanding: The total tips that a waiter/server makes at the end of the day is split up amongst the food runners, bussers, and barback, so not tipping has a trickle down effect to people who may have done their share of work yet who rely on the waiter to make their fair share.
It really is a shitty shitland of shit for the workers who live by these rules. I fault your ignorance of our food culture, not your ability to reason. I'd love to adopt the system you envision, but that means nothing in the short term and isn't too realistic.


You say that as if I don't know it. I do. Your system is shitty, everyone knows it. I would refuse to play into a shitty system (food industry). If these people saw that there was a mandatory extra fee and chose to eat there anyway, then they are in the wrong. Of course. But to call it a gratuity or tip is deceitful. I have no problem docking a waiter's pay if he provides shitty service, if his pay is partly what he wants me to donate. It is obviously obfuscating the terms, so it doesn't feel like an extra bill, but it still is.

The problem is that (all) customers are being blamed for the poor pay that waiters have. It is not the customers' fault, it is the business owners and the industry's fault.

[edit: forgot I already had replied to that last part..]

Tipping: The new abortion of debates.

BRING ON THE NAZI COMPARISONS!

Gwiz, you know Hitler didn't like to tip. Godwined.

Tippars r fags. Youtubed.

My first job was as a bus boy/dishwasher, and the waitresses I worked with made $2.13 an hour - three dollars less than minimum wage at the time. Waitresses don't just keep their tips...they have to "tip out" other people like the bus boy, etc. So as a bus boy, sometimes I would bring home $50 a night in tips from what the waitresses would give me - outside of my regular wages which were above minimum wage.

To this day, as a rule I tip 25-30% on all bills, usually with a minimum of 20%. If the person gives really lousy service - aka - charges me for extra bread etc. I subtract that out of the tip sometimes; otherwise I always tip at least 20% even if they are mediocre. For really good service (especially on low-priced bills) sometimes I'll tip upwards of 50%.

Worst tip I ever gave was -$1.00 yes I actually subtracted money from the bill and signed it on a credit card. The restaurant had a deal "$5 pitchers for domestic drafts" and I had ordered Yuengling...ended up being charged like $9.50 a pitcher when there was a sign at the very bar "Yuengling...America's oldest brewery"

It should be noted that a lot of times people penalize the waitress for problems with the cook. If the food is bad, or wrong, or late - that could be the cook's fault; many times it has nothing to do with the waitress. And if its busy, and/or the restaurant is under-staffed, how is that her fault and why should she be penalized? If it takes one hour to get your food, eat somewhere else don't be a dick to the waitress.

while finishing up my university education, i found work in honolulu in a very upscale restaurant overlooking waikiki beach -- this place had fantastic food, an unbelievable view and a great reputation, such that their employees (particularly waitstaff) stayed on for years and years - the average age of the waitstaff was ~35-40, and this was their career, not just some tide-me-over summer work -- as well, they were all very well educated, with most speaking at least 3-4 different languages

of course i couldn't enter the job at the waitstaff level, because those at the top of this hierarchy never left -- i began as a dishwasher, and learned as i worked 'how to' and 'all about' every aspect of the restaurant's food service and preparation business - we 'lower levels' would be routinely quizzed by the chef and management about such bizarre things as wine varietals and the history of the different wine-making regions, the history and ingredients of things like 'worchestershire sauce', as well as every ingredient and what amounts in each and every dish our restaurant prepared, as well as our knowledge of the hawaiian islands and interesting places our, primarily tourists, customers could enjoy -- i worked hard at this and eventually excelled over my co-workers, thus quickly rising to a position of 'senior' busboy - then i was allowed to clear plates and refill water glasses

i eventually rose to the position of 'backwaiter' whose job was basically to do all the 'dirtywork' of a 'frontwaiter' - the frontwaiter being primarily the frontman of a closely knit team overseeing the pleasurable dining of those customers assigned to us of a particular evening (this was done very carefully, going so far as to assign a german or japanese speaking waitstaff team to a german or japanese-speaking table of tourists, respectively)

continuing to learn and display an ever-growing knowledge of foods, wines, liquors, local culture, as well as as decorum and panache... i eventually was promoted to frontwaiter when one of those coveted positions opened up because of a staff member being hurt in a terrible car accident -- this meteoric rise took me almost 2.5 years

as a frontwaiter, i had the ultimate responsibility for my server team - such that i could, at an appropriate remove, watch my tables and anticipate any and all needs of my guests, dispatching my team members with a nod, a glance, or a simple unobtrusive gesture to immediately comply with whatever i felt needed to be done to make our guests' experience perfect - like a team of spies, my staff would report to me, e.g., which of our guests was eating the most slowly... so that i could anticipate when the last dish of the previous course would likely be cleared away so that the next dish could be served in as timely a fashion as possible - we all knew the cooking times of the next course, and would instruct the chef's team of when to begin the preparation of the next course based on which dish of said course would take the longest to prepare - as well, replacement cutlery was already on its way to the table before a guest's implement had completed its fall to the floor due to a patron's clumsy elbow or the like

after another year of this, i was promoted to assistant manager of the restaurant, where i would oversee the 'front of the house' and the individual frontwaiter teams working seamlessly with both the kitchen and barstaff

i say all of this as a way to make some here understand that, imho, there was simply no way that an hourly wage or salary could have created the pride and dedication to excellence that the tips from our commensurate service often brought - it would boggle your minds to know the number of times our customers showed their generous appreciation of our attempts to make their evening (and entire vacation in the islands) as memorable as possible

on one particular evening, an elderly australian couple came in for dinner, obviously tourists - the hostess informed me that they had presented an 'entertainment card' upon being seated -- now, this e-card is a popular facet of tourism locales, whereby the tourist buys a fat book of coupons for both goods and services available around the islands - this typically cost them us$30 and it came with a sort of credit card that could be presented in lieu of toting around this cumbersome book of offers -- in our case, the e-card entitled the holder to one free entree of equal of lesser value for every regularly priced entree purchased - the book further stipulated that a condition of using this offer, the e-card holder 'could be' automatically service charged (15%) as a gratuity, and that to be in compliance with the offer, the gratuity would be based on the original, undiscounted total of their meal

as we were very near our closing time, and my staff had had a long evening of it... as well as the pugnacious and crass demeanor of the elderly australian gentleman, i offered to serve as their front waiter, rather than have one of my hard-working staff suffer under his tight-fisted and surly deprecations

i proceeded to give them, imho, one of the best dining experiences of their lives, and at the close of the evening, i presented the gentleman with his check... noting both the orginal and discounted bill, and that the check had been service charged at 15% of the original total - he paid by credit card, and after i had returned to collect the signed credit card slip, i noticed that he had 'lined-out' the place on the slip where the gratuity was printed, and then 'corrected' the total -- when i returned to top-off their coffees, i enquired if anything during their evening had been amiss - they responded that everything had been perfect -- i then politely broached the subject of their not leaving a tip -- the australian gentleman then garrulously countered that he didn't 'believe in tipping' - i gently pointed out the e-card policy through which they'd received the discounted price, and he responded with an obscenity

i asked him to produce his e-card again, and i quickly went to my office, photocopied the relevant pages of the entertainment-card book, the credit card slip with the the tip section lined out, and cut his e-card in half... the last of which i returned to him

the next day, he complained to the restaurant owner and the e-card company - but when i produced the relevant details, both of the above sided with me

was i in the wrong? imho, the fact is that there is service and then there is 'service' - the latter of which should certainly be more commensurately rewarded than the former... but some people just refuse to see it this way

Man that Blankfist guy comes off like someone I'd never ever want to meet.

Paying more than $8 per person per meal is a waste of money IMO.

"Mandatory gratuity" is an oxymoron. Call it a "service fee".

In japan, there are NO tips, AND the restaurants are better / more efficient.

>> ^Diogenes:
i say all of this as a way to make some here understand that, imho, there was simply no way that an hourly wage or salary could have created the pride and dedication to excellence that the tips from our commensurate service often brought - it would boggle your minds to know the number of times our customers showed their generous appreciation of our attempts to make their evening (and entire vacation in the islands) as memorable as possible


I think you've missed the point. A gratuity should be a bonus for a job well done, not the compensation for doing your job. Think about it this way, which would you rather have, an hourly wage that was enough that you didn't need to collect tips to survive, or to be making 3$ an hour and hoping you get enough tips to pay your bills? I know what my answer would be.

Also as a service worker you should be performing at your best without the expectation of reward.

I agree with you, diogenes, that it totally sucks that someone don't want to pay a tip, when you've done an exemplary job, but that is the nature of a tip. It's voluntary.

You were not in the wrong, because the offer in the card you mentioned stipulated an optional fee, at the restaurant's discretion. The problem is that it is disguised as a "gratuity" which it should not be. If it truly is a gratuity, it is his decision whether or not to give it.

Now all this doesn't mean that the nice thing to do would be to pay some sort of tip, if they've had a great service and dining experience, but none-the-less, it is their decision to make.

I'm not against the idea of tipping, I'm against the idea of hidden fees (no matter the circumstances). The person in question had obviously either not read the way his card worked, or chose to break the contract, in which case you are perfectly in the clear by cutting his card in half and demanding the full cost of the meal.

>> ^blankfist:
Most parties over five or so have a mandatory gratuity. Boo on the restaurant for not comping them if the customer is dissatisfied with the service, but a major BOO on these sense of entitlement meat globs for complaining so fervently over a dish being an hour late and having to get napkins. I'm sure if they asked the waitress for napkins, she would've done it for them, but these self-important ass clowns probably couldn't wait because AMERICAN PRINCESSES DON'T WAIT FOR NO ONE!!!!
Yeah. Be nice to your food servicers. It's a thankless job and the tips hardly make up for the frustration.


You know, if it's mandatory it's not a tip. It's a serving tax, don't try to bill it as something it's not. My GF has worked in the food industry for the last 24 years about when she was 12. Master chef(specializing in Italian, French and Swiss foods) with double honors in presentation and preperation, she has worked as a server when she got tired of that. She can make people stand up and hand money over for a tip by smiling and giving a nod of her head, as in $1200/week in tips from midscale restaurants. You want thankless be a chef.

Now when you're going to a place with servers no less. And they don't do their job of pre-setup, there's a problem. Entitlement? Yes you bet. You're paying for a service(see that word....suuuurrrrrvice say it slowly now). When you're waiting an hour for food, there's a problem in the kitchen too. Tell ya what Blanky. Americans set the world standard in server quality, other countries send people to the US to learn "How" to do it. Server quality world wide is modelled after the US.

Let me finish out with this. I have no problems with tipping if they do a good job, I have a problem with mandatory tipping when the service is piss poor, and so is the food. That's almost as bad as mandatory compulsory volunteer work that they have kids do in highschool. Hello? Need a clue bat?

a few points to make:
---
The restaurant/pub owner/manager was dumb because of all the negative publicity. he/she will easily lose more than $16 worth of business. I blame the manager because if the service was shitty, then they didn't have enough staff (or people called off and no one was brought in as replacement), or that that groups particular waiter/waitress was being lazy because he/she knew that they *automatically* get a tip for parties of 6, so they focused on other tables.
if it was the manager who called the cops, then the owner should have stepped in (the next day or sooner) and dropped the charges before it goes to court, and give them free meals or something. even if it was a "contract" as in written on the menu or told in person, if they got shitty service, they shouldn't have to pay for it. The soup nazi might be funny on Seinfeld, but in real life, in most locations, he wouldn't stay in business.
---
In general, I think it is ok for a restaurant to add a "mandatory" gratuity (oxymoronic or not) to large groups because they are more difficult to handle. They take up more space, stay longer, and are louder than multiple smaller groups combined.
I'm also ok with it being called gratuity, as opposed to a "fee" because it removes ambiguity, such that people aren't tipped twice, and customers aren't asking about the "fee". p.s. The IRS definition for this is "autogratuity".
---
waiters and waitresses make less than minimum wage (usually $2-$3 hourly). for their federal taxes they have to report 100% of their tips to be legal. Employers are required to report all charged tips, and cash tips are estimated based on previous tax year filings for similarly situated employees (- 2%), at least monthly. (For example if all waitstaff made an average of 17% tips for the past year, the employer has to report 15% of gross sales for that employee to the IRS). If the waiter/waitress makes less than minimum wage with their combined $3/hour + tips, the employer must make up the difference to bring them to minimum wage for the hours worked. (But if they are that bad, they would probably get fired)
---
as a teenager, I worked as a busboy in a restaurant. maybe some larger chains are handled differently, but here it was up to the waitress to give the busboys (or busgirl) a portion of the tips they made (this is tipping-out, goes for bartenders as well as busboys). Since I knew the general price of everything on the menu, and also how many customers there were that night, I knew which waitresses were cheapskates and which ones tipped their busboys well. Guess which ones got priority?
---
I think it is a self-perpetuating cultural flaw in America that requires this tipping system. In several other parts of the world, family is more important, as well as dedication to employers. People works together as a team, and they take pride in their work. So, if a waiter does a good job, it makes the restaurant look good, and if they do a bad job, they feel ashamed. American culture rewards individual achievement so much more, that it leads toward apathetic employees and employers. Everyone is thinking of "how can I get ahead?" and so most employers don't care about employees, because there is no more loyalty. People switch jobs and companies much more frequently now than 50 years ago, or even 30 or 20 years ago. It comes down to money and individual gain.
So what's this have to do with tipping? If everyone automatically got tipped the same amount, then the waitperson would have little incentive to do a good job (or NOT do a shitty job, as exampled here). Whereas if they are rewarded based on performance, then they will consistently do a better job. If we switched to a system of "0% tips, raise menu prices, raise wages" then you'd have some good employees, but a whole lot who "don't give a shit" and do the bare minimum to not get fired, and overall quality of service would go down, but prices would stay the same.
Not tipping works in asia - because the staff take pride in their work, without the feeling of individual entitlement.
---
Lastly I'm surprised that no one linked to this video during this thread -
http://www.videosift.com/video/3rd-Rock-From-The-Sun-Tipping-Like-It-Should-Be
---
that is all, thanks for reading.

My vote: tipping should not be mandatory. The minimum wage should be a living wage. Waiters/waitresses should not be lower than the minimum wage.

I live in California, so servers are always paid the minimum wage, and when I eat in Santa Monica I know they are getting a living wage. Never the less I always tip 15%, no questions asked. If I made more money, I'd tip 20%, regardless of the level of service. LA is kind of a sucky place to live if your a god damned waiter at Denny's, I don't want to make it any shittier.

>> ^Mashiki:
You know, if it's mandatory it's not a tip. It's a serving tax, don't try to bill it as something it's not.


Restaurants cannot levy a tax. It's a charge, it's a gratuity, it's a tip, it's whatever you want to call it, but it's not a tax. I'm not quite sure what people aren't getting about this.

Also we're arguing semantics if the argument is based on whether gratuity or tips can or cannot be compulsory. There is no written law I know that says they must be one way or another. If you agree to pay a gratuity before service, then you should be ready to pay it after service is completed.

If I buy a massage for my girlfriend, they ask if I'd like to add a gratuity to the gift certificate. Obviously I don't know if the massage is going to be rubbish or fantastic, but I add it ahead of time so she doesn't have to tip them. At that point, I've agreed to the price before service. Same thing here.

>> ^Hawkinson:
My vote: tipping should not be mandatory. The minimum wage should be a living wage. Waiters/waitresses should not be lower than the minimum wage.
I live in California, so servers are always paid the minimum wage, and when I eat in Santa Monica I know they are getting a living wage. Never the less I always tip 15%, no questions asked. If I made more money, I'd tip 20%, regardless of the level of service. LA is kind of a sucky place to live if your a god damned waiter at Denny's, I don't want to make it any shittier.


Minimum wage is absolutely not a living wage.

It's funny how a video about a dispute over the gratuity on a bar bill triggers a major ideological clash.

I don't think there's any fundamental societal issue at play here other than people can be confrontational assholes over almost any kind of dispute.

If someone gets a reasonable fix for that, let me know.

Digression, but lets be fair; approximately 80% of the worlds population lives on less than $5.15 a day = $1875 a year. Minimum wage in the US is $7.25 per hour = $15,080 a year. If you can't live off 15k a year you are either a dumb ass, or a jack ass.

>> ^Ryjkyj
Minimum wage is absolutely not a living wage.

^if the cost of living was the same the world over, you would have a valid point. 15k in the US gets you a tent city address.

>> ^kymbos:
It's not a tip if it's compulsory - it's a tax. It should be rolled into the total and not hidden as a 'gratuity'.


You got that backwards. If it were rolled into the total, then it would be hidden. If it is separately listed as a gratuity on the bill, it's out in the open.

>> ^blankfist:
Restaurants cannot levy a tax. It's a charge, it's a gratuity, it's a tip, it's whatever you want to call it, but it's not a tax. I'm not quite sure what people aren't getting about this.
Also we're arguing semantics if the argument is based on whether gratuity or tips can or cannot be compulsory. There is no written law I know that says they must be one way or another. If you agree to pay a gratuity before service, then you should be ready to pay it after service is completed.
If I buy a massage for my girlfriend, they ask if I'd like to add a gratuity to the gift certificate. Obviously I don't know if the massage is going to be rubbish or fantastic, but I add it ahead of time so she doesn't have to tip them. At that point, I've agreed to the price before service. Same thing here.


I was being facetious but you should have caught that when I called it a tax. In the terms of everything however that is what it boils down to. If something becomes mandatory it's no longer a respect for service, but a mandatory pay for a job on top of a service already expected. In most places for something mandatory gratuity(I suppose I could call it something else, such as a store based levy) it has to be openly visible for the customers to see as well.

Tipping for all things can and can't be compulsory depending on where you are and the laws. If it's compulsory it becomes something else depending on your tax code, and they actually have to file and provide you with a different receipt for it as well. The funny thing is, depending on where you live you can be nailed for tax evasion on it. As demanding tipping in this manner can, and can't be recorded via the normal way.

The rest of your post doesn't apply.

Private businesses cannot levy a tax. No amount of word juggling will make that any less of a fact.

I can totally understand adding a mandatory 15% gratuity for parties over a certain size.

I've never waited, but I've bussed tables and I've been with groups that always had cheapskates who thought that tipping was beneath them. Hell, half the time they wouldn't pay their own fair share of the bill anyway.

Thats hyperbole if I ever heard it. $15,080 a year = $1256 a month. I don't care what city you live in you can find a $500 a month apartment.

15k isn't enough money to live on for most Americans because most Americans spend their money like fucking retards...which isn't much surprise, because most American's are fucking retards. It has absolutely nothing to do with cost of living.

We are digressing even further, but most American's don't even realize that their lives only exist to work, make, and give money to someone else. If you are a typical American, you spend 20-30 years working 2,080 hours a year making somewhere between $15,080 to $100,000 and at the end of each year you spend almost your entire paycheck regardless of your income level. It doesn't matter whether you have a hyundai or a lexus, your money (and thus your work, your time, and ultimately - your life) is handed over to someone else with hardly a second thought.

1 bedroom, 3 bedrooms, 5 bedrooms, bus, hyundai, lexus, .10 acres, 1 acre, 10 acres - you think it really matters?

If you are working for anyone but yourself, you're a fool.

>> ^longde:
^if the coat of living was the same the world over, you would have a valid point. 15k in the US gets you a tent city address.

Oh, yeah. $15k is really high living.

>> ^imstellar28:
Thats hyperbole if I ever heard it. $15,080 a year = $1256 a month. I don't care what city you live in you can find a $500 a month apartment.
15k isn't enough money to live on for most Americans because most Americans spend their money like fucking retards...which isn't much surprise, because most American's are fucking retards. It has absolutely nothing to do with cost of living.
>> ^longde:
^if the coat of living was the same the world over, you would have a valid point. 15k in the US gets you a tent city address.

I don't think imstellar28 is saying it's "high living". I think he's saying if you stay within your means $15k could be enough anywhere in the country. It may not be the best, but it can serve most just fine.

Except in LA or NY. You will struggle your asses off in LA or NY on $15k. Though, I do remember making less than that when I got to LA in 1999 and I did ok. I had enough money to go out and visit bars and take care of myself.

>> ^blankfist:
I don't think imstellar28 is saying it's "high living". I think he's saying if you stay within your means $15k could be enough anywhere in the country. It may not be the best, but it can serve most just fine.
Except in LA or NY. You will struggle your asses off in LA or NY on $15k. Though, I do remember making less than that when I got to LA in 1999 and I did ok. I had enough money to go out and visit bars and take care of myself.


No, you really can't do much living on $15k, Blankie. There are very few places in the USA where that would be the kind of income you could live on, even here in Roswell.

You're not going to be able to pay for your retirement with that kind of money. You're not going to get much of a health care package, if at all. You'll barely be able to own and operate a car. The list is long.

And if one little thing goes wrong, you're screwed.

Yes. That's why people should work hard not to make only $15k. Though sometimes it's unavoidable.

You live in Roswell? Wow. I didn't know that. Cool! Do you have any alien chotchkies?

I have lived on 15k relatively recently, and while on paper it's enough, you are not taking into account the ups and downs of life. If any unexpected thing happens, car breaks, sickness, layoff, you are living in a tent city. And it only has to happen once over your life. Chances are, over a working life, a person making this much will be homeless at some time. And if they make it past working age, they will surely be living out of a tent, eating cat food.

One reason was stated above: you cannot save significant amounts of money on 15k. Not to mention that the poor pay through the nose for everything, and don't have credit.

So, I may have been using hyperbole, but only slightly. Now, I have known of immigrants from China or Mexico who pack into a single family dwelling. In that case, 15k would go a long way, I suppose.

>> ^imstellar28:
Thats hyperbole if I ever heard it. $15,080 a year = $1256 a month. I don't care what city you live in you can find a $500 a month apartment.
15k isn't enough money to live on for most Americans because most Americans spend their money like fucking retards...which isn't much surprise, because most American's are fucking retards. It has absolutely nothing to do with cost of living.
We are digressing even further, but most American's don't even realize that their lives only exist to work, make, and give money to someone else. If you are a typical American, you spend 20-30 years working 2,080 hours a year making somewhere between $15,080 to $100,000 and at the end of each year you spend almost your entire paycheck regardless of your income level. It doesn't matter whether you have a hyundai or a lexus, your money (and thus your work, your time, and ultimately - your life) is handed over to someone else with hardly a second thought.
1 bedroom, 3 bedrooms, 5 bedrooms, bus, hyundai, lexus, .10 acres, 1 acre, 10 acres - you think it really matters?
If you are working for anyone but yourself, you're a fool.
>> ^longde:
^if the coat of living was the same the world over, you would have a valid point. 15k in the US gets you a tent city address.

This economy ain't no joke. Especially when you are the most irresponsible couple in the world. These guys get a homeless shelter. Other folks have fared much worse without being rabid consumers.

I make more than 15k a year but I make it a point to keep my living expenses under $1000 a month and I'm no pauper, so I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit.

In fact, not only can someone live on $1000 a month, someone doing this and making 15k a year would be putting $3000 a year in savings so I'm sorry I just don't buy your argument.

If you wanna make it personal, why don't we compare living budgets and we'll see just why living on $1256 a month is so difficult. Heres mine:

I've included two numbers since I live in a one-bedroom house with my girlfriend. The left is what I would pay if I lived alone, the right is what I pay splitting costs with her (would be the same situation as having a roommate, and if you are that strung up on cash then thats probably the best option for you)

Rent $450 ($225)
*One Bedroom house, in a nice neighborhood, 2 miles from downtown in a city with ~1 million people

Water $30 ($15)

Electricity $50 ($25)
*Electric Heat

Trash $20 ($10)

Internet $40 ($20)
*5mbps Broadband

Cellphone $70 ($70)

Gas $25 ($25)
*150 miles a week, 50 mpg, $3/gallon

Insurance $16 ($16)
*$200 a year

Food $300 ($300)
*$10 a day: bacon ($2/lb) eggs ($1.5/dozen), steak/chicken/pork ($3/lb), fruit ($1/lb) and vegetables ($1/lb)

Total $1001 ($706)

So here I am, someone who makes more than minimum wage, choosing to live on $700 a month. Had I been making $1256 I would still have $550 left over for savings, emergencies, going out, etc. Its not that it can't be done, its that people choose not do it.

Every day I eat bacon and eggs for breakfast and a 16oz new york strip, ribeye, pork lion, or roasted chicken breast with fresh fruits and vegetables for dinner, I have high speed internet, a cellphone, a vehicle, clean water, heat, a front yard, and a roof over my head, and you are telling me this is "unlivable" ?

No...this is unlivable:
http://lboudouani.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/starvation3.jpg

I think its a matter of location. IMO, your lifestyle at that cost would be impossible in LA or the Bay in California. Though, maybe in Kansas it would be cheaper to live.

I think you must either live in texas or detroit. $450 is rent for a decent room where I live (nor cal). For a house in a decent (safe) neighborhood, near a major city center, you're looking at twice the rent at least. (Please tell me I'm crazy, and you live near San Jose, which is about a million in population. I would move in a hot second)

My water is about the same per month. No trash. Electricity is about the same.

Internet, I don't know at the moment, since it's included in my rent. Transportation costs are about the same, though gas rates are higher.

I, even when I didn't have tickets, have never had an auto insurance bill that was close to $200 a year. My lowest rate was $400 a year, if memory serves.

From surveying the costs you posted, I think rent, gas, and insurance are the major cost differences, due to location. So, you'd be able to squeak by with a roommate, and cross your fingers that no emergencies occur. Not saying that people shouldn't move if they can't afford it.

well i ride a 610cc dirt bike 365 days a year so that probably explains the difference in transportation costs are most people wiling to do that? no. can most people do it? of course.

typical rent in this area is $500 to $1500, my house is 550 square feet. Would
most americans want to live in a house that "small?" no, probably not. can you? of course. 95% of the world would kill to live in the conditons i do, yet 95% of americans wouldnt dare.

thats a cultural flaw if you ask me

...kind of like eating out in a food industry where workers rely on tips, and not tipping because you "cant afford it" . by the way, do you guys only ever eat somewhere more than once? i would be worried about the urine content of my food with tipping histories like that

If you eat out lunch and dinner, you're looking at $15 a day for food. If you cook it, it really depends where you get your groceries. It's a matter of capital and time. If you're cooking, you need a car to efficiently ferry groceries from bigbox stores that are typically built several miles from residential areas, or else pay a 50% premium (on average) to get groceries from closer small-scale inefficient stores. If you do have access to the bigbox stores, you can feed yourself on like $7 a day (not counting the increase to your electric bill from cooking things at home, which empirically seems to be ~ $15/month). People who are really poor -- too poor to afford cars -- get exploited by those overpriced little stores on every corner. All the stores with really low prices are out by the highway several miles from downtown or anywhere that people live. Wal-Mart etc have reasons for building that way: The land's cheaper, resupply is easier, and there's less shoplifting if you're out of walking distance from anywhere that bums can live.

Wow Stellar, I'm not sure what kind of a magical land you live in where you pay $16 a month for insurance but let's say you're telling the truth:

Do you ride to work in the rain? Because nobody I know rides their bike in the rain. So what then, call in sick every time it rains? That wouldn't fly at my job.

By the way, don't you have to pay for the bike? Even assuming you're all paid off, you'd have to account for it in your budget at some point in your life. 600cc bikes aren't exactly cheap. And what about maintenance? Tires, plugs, oil, brakes, etc? I know, I know... you maintain it yourself right? Because you're so self sufficient. Well then who pays for the tools? Who pays for the replacement parts? Well, we'll have to figure that into your budget as well. (Unless of course you got them from www.wegiveawayfreetoolsandbikeparts.com)

So, now that we've figured in the cost of your bike and the maintenance, what about everything else you already own? I'm assuming that you cook your $10-a-day food supply in pots and pans? And then you eat it on plates? With silverware? Do you use oil to cook your meat and vegetables in? Well at what point in your life do you figure all of that stuff into your budget? Let's move on:

You can't work anywhere without keeping yourself clean (arguably anyway ) So you'll have to buy soap, which doesn't last forever. And shampoo. And razors; I can't think of many minimum wage jobs that let you have a beard. Then you'll need towels to dry yourself and of course all the other basic toiletries: toothbrush/paste, nail clippers, toilet paper (unless of course you use a bidet which would add to your water costs).

Now I hope you don't have any sort of health problems at all. Otherwise you're looking at pretty high costs for medication: asthma inhaler, insulin, etc. Speaking of insulin, I hope you're not a diabetic, because that's gonna throw that whole menu you listed right out the window.

OK, I have to get back to work but I just need to point out one more thing:

I checked th math you did for your yearly budget. It's correct, but you seemed to have left out one major thing in your budget: TAXES.


Let me guess, where you live there are no taxes right?

My $70 Target bike is 15 months old and has approximately 1500 miles on it with no maintenance whatsoever (except inflating tires with a hand pump). It still works adequately. I ride it rain or shine. Can usually avoid the most torrential rains by staying late. Torrential rains in the morning are quite rare. Protecting it from thieves requires a lock that is nearly as expensive as the bike itself.

Two people together can get things done a lot more efficiently than one person living alone. The vast majority of the cost of the household is unaffected by the number of people living there -- rent, heating and cooling (aka 80% of the electric bill), and internet access.

It's no additional labor to cook for 2 than to cook for 1 -- just throw twice as much in the pot. Likewise for the labor of grocery shopping to find the best products at the lowest prices. Doing dishes for two people instead of one is considerably less than twice as much work.

>> ^jwray:
My $70 Target bike is 15 months old and has approximately 1500 miles on it with no maintenance whatsoever (except inflating tires with a hand pump). It still works adequately. I ride it rain or shine. Can usually avoid the most torrential rains by staying late. Torrential rains in the morning are quite rare. Protecting it from thieves requires a lock that is nearly as expensive as the bike itself.


A 610cc bike is a type of motorcycle

>> ^Ryjkyj:
Do you ride to work in the rain? Because nobody I know rides their bike in the rain. So what then, call in sick every time it rains?

Rain, snow, lightning, fog, hail, tumbleweeds, crazy drivers. The weather here ranges from -10 F to 105F and yes I ride every day no matter what. Riding in the rain isn't that big of a deal if you have a waterproof helmet, jacket, pants, gloves, and boots.

You can buy a used dirt bike for about $1000 - in fact my very first motorcycle was a used Ninja 250 (sport bike) which I bought for $1400. Gets 70 MPG. As far as maintenance on my current bike goes; spark plugs are about $2 (single cylinder) and an oil change is what $10? Mine was $7000 brand new, but I don't make minimum wage. Most people spend what, 10, 20, 30 thousand on a new car? Why would you spend $20,000 on a car? They are slow, dangerous, get terrible gas mileage, and can't even ride down single track

Thing is, if you are making minimum wage, why would you need a car to commute in the first place? Theres a McDonalds on every block and used bicycles are like $30. Anyone working less than 10 miles from their house could easily ride a bicycle to work. One of my coworkers does it every day (14 miles) ...yes in the rain and snow too.

Its not a question of "can" its a question of "will." People in America think (know?) they need a car yet theres really no need for it.

As far as TAXES go...you know I'm a libertarian right? I don't believe in taxation...so that part is on you...if you want to steal 20% from someone making minimum wage thats on you, not me

>> ^jwray:
If you're cooking, you need a car to efficiently ferry groceries from bigbox stores that are typically built several miles from residential areas, or else pay a 50% premium (on average) to get groceries from closer small-scale inefficient stores.

I can carry eight bags of groceries on my motorcycle - two handlebars, a backpack, a tank bag, and a box on the passenger seat . In fact, heres a picture of me coming back from the store with groceries: http://tinypic.com/r/14ch5iw/6

But I rarely see the need to take home more than 2-3 at a time since I live within 2 miles of like five Supermarkets and a Walmart, with the closest Supermarket being about 2 blocks away, so I can ride my bicycle to get groceries if I want (again 2 handlebars and a backpack).

>> ^blankfist:
Yes. That's why people should work hard not to make only $15k. Though sometimes it's unavoidable.
You live in Roswell? Wow. I didn't know that. Cool! Do you have any alien chotchkies?


Blankie, I came here to berate that little bastard "Stellar" but since we're here.

(I may get to see you in Santa Fe for your movie 'Yeardly' - hope so)

But to put a point on it - some people love a system more than they love people.

Capitalism is a system - it is an invisible machine - kind of like a ladder.

It's very useful as long as you want to do what's what - otherwise it's just a ladder.

You free market freaks think that it's okay for people to starve.

Because you love the beauty of the ladder.

Green people like me consider that unacceptable.

To watch people starve based on a philosophy.

Oh, thanks. So what you're saying is that in addition to the cost of your bike that you left out of your budget (whether it's $1,000 or $100,000), you should also be adding in the cost of your waterproof riding gear. Another thing you left out.

Look, I'm not going to argue with you over whether or not most Americans are retards. I agree with that statement, as much as you just love to repeat it.

The fact of the matter is, minimum wage is not a living wage. If you're being paid minimum wage, then you can't support yourself without doing other things to fill in the gaps. Minimum wage is supposed to cover that according to the government but it doesn't.

And regarding your self sufficiency: no one actually needs money to live. I'm sure I could live a long life (barring any health issues) without making any money at all. The point here is that I would have to do other things.

When it was stated above that minimum wage was a living wage, I just wanted to point out that it's not. If you don't agree with me, go and look up "living wage" and educate yourself before you come in to do nothing but egotistically point out how your flawless logic and applied determination can solve all the world's problems. You can't even fill out a budget properly.

And speaking of budgets: I really don't care which stupid fucking political bullshit you adhere to. I don't subscribe to any political party philosophy at all but it doesn't change the fact that if either of us get a minimum wage job anywhere, they're going to take the taxes out before they pay you your check. The manager of McDonald's isn't going to come out of his office and ask, "OK, how many dirt-bike-riding libertarians are working here? Cause I wanna' be sure not to take your taxes out of your check."

Ryj, I thought about the tax angle too. But wrote it off considering that for fed and state taxes, I got a refund at that income. Didn't factor in FICA and other non-tax paycheck deductions.

>> ^Ryjkyj
go and look up "living wage" and educate yourself before you...

To live means to have a minimum of food and water, and at most geographical locations, shelter and clothing too. A living wage then, means "a wage which affords oneself adequate food, water, clothing, and shelter to sustain life."

What you are describing isn't a living wage its a "comfortable wage." I'm sorry but like most people in a 1st world country, you just don't understand what it means to be alive. When you think "life" you don't think "breath," you think "entertainment."

If what you are saying is true, then it is physically impossible for anyone in the US to live (food water shelter clothing) on $1256 a month ($42) a day. This is clearly bullshit as I can go to www.hotels.com and find a room with free all-you-can-eat continental breakfast for $40 in almost every city in America...even NY and LA. Food, water, shower, heat, electricity, wi-fi, television, laundry, fresh sheets and towels, soap, shampoo, all of it for $40 a night.

So sorry, but Motel 6 is living proof what you say just isn't true. And...assuming that the folks at Motel 6 aren't a bunch of life-hugging hippies, and are actually in business to turn a profit - it seems obvious that the average person could live for much less than $40 a day.

Wow, so you still didn't look it up. And here I thought you were into economics.

I said above that I could live a long life with no money at all.

You have no idea what I'm talking about at all because you're one of the ignorant Americans that you hate.

^Everybody is ignorant; the question is, about what?

Your definition of living wage, I'm guessing, includes healthcare and entertainment, if not more - am I right? I agree anyone can define a phrase to mean anything, but you can't re-define what it means to be alive. So...I think I'll stick with the biological definition rather than the political one.

Charges were dropped. Tips are not mandatory, even if the menu says otherwise.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/bethlehem/index.ssf/2009/11/bethlehem_police_officially_dr.html

^Service isn't mandatory either, be funny if nobody in that town chose to serve them food again

>> ^imstellar28:
^Everybody is ignorant; the question is, about what?
Your definition of living wage, I'm guessing, includes healthcare and entertainment, if not more - am I right? I agree anyone can define a phrase to mean anything, but you can't re-define what it means to be alive. So...I think I'll stick with the biological definition rather than the political one.


If that's the case, then you have no point, as merely being alive does not require money.

Better luck next time.