BRANDON, Man. - Thirty-six passengers on a Greyhound bus watched in horror Wednesday night as a fellow passenger stabbed a man sleeping next to him, decapitated him and began waving around the man's severed head.
The bus made an emergency stop, and passengers fled in terror onto the darkening Trans-Canada Highway near Portage la Prairie, Man., while the bus's driver and a driver of a nearby truck shut the crazed man inside the bus with the victim. Passengers on the Winnipeg to Edmonton bus say they stood outside and watched through the window, horrified, as the man disfigured the victim's body.
RCMP have confirmed they are investigating a homicide, although investigators won't provide further details about how a young man was stabbed to death and then decapitated.
"He didn't do anything to provoke the guy. The guy just took a knife out and stabbed him, started stabbing him like crazy and cut his head off," said Garnet Caton, 36, a passenger.
"Some people were puking, some people were crying, other people were in shock . . . everybody was running, screaming off the bus."
Greyhound spokesman Eric Wesley, speaking from Texas, said drivers are trained to get help as soon as they can when incidents occur.
"This is very rare, unique occurrence. Bus transportation is one of the safest modes of transportation. This is highly unique that something like this happened," he said. "Our drivers are trained to provide the safest travel for all our passengers, and every time an incident occurs they know to pull the bus over and call 911."
Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day, speaking in Quebec City, said the issue of safety on buses may need to be examined more closely once the legal process of this case is over.
"We're never closed to looking at how Canadians can be more safe and more secure," Day told reporters in Quebec Thursday. "This particular incident, as horrific as it is, is obviously extremely rare."
Witnesses described a nightmarish scene inside the bus.
Caton and others said once they escaped the bus, they prevented the attacker from getting off by threatening him with makeshift weapons - a hammer and a metal bar.
"We were telling him, 'Stay put, stay put, stay there, don't try to come out.' He tried to get the bus working and the bus driver disabled the bus somehow in the back, I'm not sure how he did it, and at that point, I think the police showed up," he said, adding officers rushed them away.
Caton described the man who attacked the passenger as about six feet tall, 200 pounds, with a bald head and wearing sunglasses. He seemed oblivious to others when the stabbing occurred, said Caton.
Caton said he was struck by how calm the man was. He just walked up to the front of the bus and dropped the head, Caton said.
Caton said the victim boarded in Edmonton, was Aboriginal in appearance, was wearing hip-hop clothing and appeared to be around 20 years of age.
"When we saw the head, we knew he was dead," he said. "I don't think the guy knew him at all. I think he was really crazy . . . the poor guy, he didn't see it coming."
Two yellow school buses were brought in to the closed-off stretch of highway for passengers to sit in while the standoff between officers and the man inside the bus proceeded for hours.
The passengers were later taken to Brandon, Man., to be interviewed by police and to stay overnight at a hotel there. Some will be resuming their trips later Thursday.
Crisis counsellors were also at the hotel to provide support to the passengers, and counsellors could be seen chatting with them outside the hotel as groups went out to local stores for snacks or to smoke cigarettes.
One small boy, who was with an adult man and woman, was given a plush teddy bear by a crisis health worker.
Another young man from Nova Scotia sat outside the Brandon hotel smoking around 3 a.m. Visibly shaken, he said RCMP had taken 36 witnesses in for questioning into a detachment approximately 100 kilometres east.
"I felt bad that all the young people and old people had to see that," he said.
The man, who did not want his name used, said the victim of the stabbing had been sleeping before the attack.
Other passengers said that the two men were sitting at the rear of the bus and the stabbing victim was listening to music through his headphones. The men were both sitting in the back of the bus, and the attack appeared to be unprovoked.
"The first thing I heard was something like a terrible type (of) yowl and that was from the guy who got stabbed," said an elderly woman on the bus, from Winnipeg.
The woman and her adult daughter said they were three or four rows in front of the suspect when the attack began.
"(My daughter said) 'Oh my God' and everybody else started screaming," she said. "They had terror in their eyes."
Passengers said there was a rush of people toward the front of the bus to get off.
Two other passengers on the bus, a 22-year-old man and 21-year-old woman from France, said they were heading to Winnipeg after visiting the woman's father in Whitehorse. The 22-year-old man said in French that he saw a man holding a long knife repeatedly stab another passenger. He and his girlfriend said they were shocked by the attack, and the isolation in the middle of the prairie when it occurred.
"There was nowhere to go," she said.
Wesley said counselling will be provided and monetary compensation will be determined on an individual basis.
"We are going to do whatever we need to provide the passengers with counselling or any other measures to make sure they're taken care of," he said Thursday.
He said there are security systems on the buses that enable drivers to contact the Greyhound operations office quickly.
He said officials from the company have been in talks with Transport Canada to review security measures on bus routes, but it could prove difficult.
"Well, the rural nature of our network doesn't allow us to have airport-style security - doesn't make it practical for us to do that. We're working with Transport Canada to review inner-city bus security," Wesley said. "We're working with them to make things as safe as possible."
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60 Comments
schismsays...damn just about to post this. I know he is telling us what happened but, I couldn't imagine what it was like and what it felt like seeing that all go down.
catsaway9says...This is a great interview in the sense that the person being interviewed is extremely articulate and gives a clear and detailed account of the incident. But whoever is asking the questions is an idiot - "Had you ever seen anything like this before" DUH! "No, never seen somebody decapitated."
quantumushroomIt's a good thing no one had a gun, otherwise someone might've gotten hurt.
And the psycho will not be executed because Canada "humanely" has no death penalty.
Good work, Canucks!
lesserfoolSo what's the story with the knifeman?
spoco2>> ^quantumushroom:
It's a good thing no one had a gun, otherwise someone might've gotten hurt.
And the psycho will not be executed because Canada "humanely" has no death penalty.
Good work, Canucks!
What a completely insanely stupid comment QM.
BECAUSE he had a knife and NOT a gun, only ONE person was killed, he wasn't able to shoot through the windows at people, he could be easily contained, couldn't shoot people as they exited the bus. etc. You've instead showed how much LESS dangerous knives are compared to guns. One is a close range, limited damage area weapon, the other can kill people at a distance.
And to try and suggest that the death penalty is the best thing here... bravo sir. That's the way to solve everything, kill the baddies. I'm sure you'd like them to have shot him on the spot wouldn't you? So then we could have no idea of understanding why this happened or how we can prevent such things happening again.
Oh, and from the story I read just before seeing this it's not currently known what caused the man to do this, one would expect there's some severe mental problem going on, I'm sure we'll find out more later.
This is terrifying because of the completely unprovoked nature of the attack (apparently the guy killed was asleep at the time), and it could be enough to stop you wanting to go on a bus ever again, but you have to remember that this happened ONCE, out of how many bus trips every day, every year?
spoco2Oh, and this guy is a hero, he helped keep the guy in the bus, he wanted to try and stop the guy at the start but didn't feel he could without help (and no-one else helped). Good on the guy for helping contain the problem.
The poor guy is going to end up with serious nightmares and problems from this for a long time you'll have to assume. I feel really sorry for him and the others who were involved in this.
videosiftbannedmeQM,
You truly continue to prove your worth to the community here with your moronic comments and gun-worshiping diatribes. Getting negative attention from your peers is still attention though, isn't it?
As a thoughtful person, my heart goes out to the victim, his family and our fellow neighbors up north.
imstellar28says...Seriously deranged. Anything less than life in prison would do this victim, his family, and society as a whole, a great injustice.
The victim's only chance would have been the immediate action of several nearby passengers--which given the perpetrators size and possession of a weapon, is unlikely unless one had formal training or exercised a ccw.
budzosKill the guy as soon as you find out why he did it.
/not kidding
NicoleBeeBlergh. It's been so fun to be Manitoban lately.
BillOreillyPublic Hanging is the order of the day for this atrocity.
And all you who oppose the death penalty, ask yourself, what if your family member was the one killed and BEHEADED?
Ya, that's right, suddenly your stance on the death penalty would have a marked "shift".
vermeulensays...if a family member of my was killed, yes i would want the person sentenced to death. But thats personal revenge, should we really have an official government policy of revenge?
charliemsays...This mans composure and ability to clearly recount the story, is due in large part to his military training.
Pretty shocking.
thinker247If a member of my family or one of my close friends was murdered, I would not want the killer to have the death penalty, because what would that solve? Would it bring back my loved one? As if we feel it's okay to kill someone because it's "justified?" Maybe the killer, in his mind, thought what he was doing was justified. Does that make it right? Of course not. And neither does the justification for the death penalty. It doesn't bring back the victim, and it doesn't bring closure to the family. It only perpetuates a fascination with death and revenge that we should have removed from our society when we stepped out of the caves and into the enlightened age. Are we to forever be barbarians?
>> ^BillOreilly:
Public Hanging is the order of the day for this atrocity.
And all you who oppose the death penalty, ask yourself, what if your family member was the one killed and BEHEADED?
Ya, that's right, suddenly your stance on the death penalty would have a marked "shift".
MarineGunrock>> ^spoco2:
>> ^quantumushroom:
It's a good thing no one had a gun, otherwise someone might've gotten hurt.
And the psycho will not be executed because Canada "humanely" has no death penalty.
Good work, Canucks!
What a completely insanely stupid comment QM.
BECAUSE he had a knife and NOT a gun, only ONE person was killed, he wasn't able to shoot through the windows at people, he could be easily contained, couldn't shoot people as they exited the bus. etc. You've instead showed how much LESS dangerous knives are compared to guns. One is a close range, limited damage area weapon, the other can kill people at a distance.
And to try and suggest that the death penalty is the best thing here... bravo sir. That's the way to solve everything, kill the baddies. I'm sure you'd like them to have shot him on the spot wouldn't you? So then we could have no idea of understanding why this happened or how we can prevent such things happening again.
Oh, and from the story I read just before seeing this it's not currently known what caused the man to do this, one would expect there's some severe mental problem going on, I'm sure we'll find out more later.
This is terrifying because of the completely unprovoked nature of the attack (apparently the guy killed was asleep at the time), and it could be enough to stop you wanting to go on a bus ever again, but you have to remember that this happened ONCE, out of how many bus trips every day, every year?
Seriously? You called QM's comment stupid?
1) QM was saying that it's too bad that NO ONE ELSE had a gun, not the attacker. Jeesh.
2) Just because you learn why ONE guy killed someone, doesn't mean that you can prevent OTHER people from doing it. Humans aren't fucking computers. They can't just be reprogrammed when a flaw in the code is found.
direpickle^
Let me state straight off that I have no problem with guns. I have a gun. A gun would not have made this situation turn out any differently. The guy still would've had a giant knife shoved into him, probably many times before anyone could or would have drawn. He would still, most likely, be dead.
The difference is that maybe the killer could have been stopped from completely decapitating the guy. And, at the same time, you'd have someone with a firearm trying to point it at a knife-wielding maniac while 34 other people rushed by him to get off the bus. That seems like an awesome opportunity to accidentally shoot a bystander. I honestly can't imagine that a gun would've caused this situation to come out any differently--or at least any better.
dannym3141>> ^MarineGunrock:
>> ^spoco2:
>> ^quantumushroom:
It's a good thing no one had a gun, otherwise someone might've gotten hurt.
And the psycho will not be executed because Canada "humanely" has no death penalty.
Good work, Canucks!
What a completely insanely stupid comment QM.
BECAUSE he had a knife and NOT a gun, only ONE person was killed, he wasn't able to shoot through the windows at people, he could be easily contained, couldn't shoot people as they exited the bus. etc. You've instead showed how much LESS dangerous knives are compared to guns. One is a close range, limited damage area weapon, the other can kill people at a distance.
And to try and suggest that the death penalty is the best thing here... bravo sir. That's the way to solve everything, kill the baddies. I'm sure you'd like them to have shot him on the spot wouldn't you? So then we could have no idea of understanding why this happened or how we can prevent such things happening again.
Oh, and from the story I read just before seeing this it's not currently known what caused the man to do this, one would expect there's some severe mental problem going on, I'm sure we'll find out more later.
This is terrifying because of the completely unprovoked nature of the attack (apparently the guy killed was asleep at the time), and it could be enough to stop you wanting to go on a bus ever again, but you have to remember that this happened ONCE, out of how many bus trips every day, every year?
Seriously? You called QM's comment stupid?
1) QM was saying that it's too bad that NO ONE ELSE had a gun, not the attacker. Jeesh.
2) Just because you learn why ONE guy killed someone, doesn't mean that you can prevent OTHER people from doing it. Humans aren't fucking computers. They can't just be reprogrammed when a flaw in the code is found.
Oh so only EVERYONE ELSE are allowed guns, just not the guys that spontaneously and without warning turn from a sensible, clear thinking passenger of a bus into a raving psychopath with killing tendencies? Oh ok, we'll just do that, then.
So guys, listen up - anyone that will at some point in the future turn from a normal, sane, clear headed individual into a raving psychopath drop your weapons now, and anyone that will never do all that just go to your local arming station and pick up a rifle, ok?
Yeah? That ok everyone? Good. Make sure you don't turn spontaenously and without warning into a raving psychopath, because then you'd be able to kill more and faster. Ok? You sure you won't? You're definitely telling the truth? Ok, good. Here's some more ammunition.
...
If we'd just killed someone as a kneejerk response to outbursts of life-threatening violence or sporadic and unprompted murder, it would have meant that we would have been far slower in our assessment of mental conditions and our ability to protect others from the effects of such.
dannym3141By the way, you can argue semantics, quote statistics, lie and ignorant salient facts all you like, but you'll always be wrong.
You belong to the "arm everyone and let them take care of themselves" school, which (aside from accidents caused by the universal ownership of guns) means that EVERYONE (including bad guys/psychopaths) are armed. Now, bad guys and psychopaths are generally not very discerning on the amount of people they kill, and sometimes they don't even have a reason. So you're saying that we could then shoot them in return. So the guy instead pulls out a gun and starts shooting another guy (who dies), he knows that everyone around him has guns and he's wary of it, so he shoots a few other people he sees fumbling for their guns, then he gets shot. Maybe a few get shot in the crossfire too. Now you've got let's say 8 dead people instead of 1, and about another 8 injured? What about that guy that got the wrong man (cos hey everyone's shooting by this time) and shot 3 people in cold blood who he thought were psychopaths.
Just shut up, you can't ever win this argument.
MarineGunrockI never said the situation would have been any different had someone else had a gun. All I said was what QM was saying. You're pulling shit out of your ass with absolutely no basis in reality. No where in my previous comment did I say ANYTHING that we should arm everyone to the teeth and let them handle themselves.
So "Just shut up", you can't ever construct an argument to something that was never said.
NordlichReiterThe only way to stop impulse killings is to keep people separated and every one stays in their own 2x2 room with cages.
Control is an illusion.
At any moment any place a death can happen.
SIDE NOTE: This is another reason to add to why i do not ride on public transportation systems.
QM and Spoco are both right in their own ways, and both wrong in their own ways.
We can never know for sure what would happen because we were not their. Even if we were there, we would still not no for sure.
QM was right in that having a gun could have enabled a bystander to neutralize the attacker.
Spoco is also right because the same gun could have injured an innocent.
But I would like to have had the change to help the victim, or die trying
How to become a hero:
Dont do it because you want to be a hero, don't do it because you think its right, dont do it because you may get some fame out of it. You do it because you can, you are there at that moment: instant, millisecond, forever. Just doing it will fulfill all of the above statements.
NordlichReiterAnother comment to add here:
It is in human nature, because we are all animals, to have the impulses. Whether they be to eat, sleep, kill, rape(lust), even suicide or any other thing that can be thought off as an impulse.
The only thing that makes us different from all other animals in the world is that humans have the cognative ability to reason. To rationalize which impulses to follow, and which ones not to follow.
In some cases reason does not prevail.
direpickleAlso: To all of the "if only they could have had guns!" and "if they could have guns, then the killer would have a gun, too!" people: Wasn't this in Canada? Aren't there totally tons of guns in Canada? There aren't as many as in the US, but it looks like they're still plenty available. If this guy had wanted to have a gun, he probably would've had a gun.
budzosMost of the guns in Canada are hunting rifles.
9410says...We all have the benefit of hindsight on this one, so we could all sit here for days on end making ifs and buts. "What if the driver had a gun, what if the killer didn't have a knife, what if the victim had a stab proof vest?" I'm not saying his death was unpreventable by any means, merely that the measures to prevent all irrational psychopaths are unrealistic. As ever the freedoms "we" enjoy come with a sacrifice whenever they are misused.
I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself. I feel terrible for the families and friends of the victim, I don't know how I'd cope if that happened to me.
bcglorfsays...Wow, being from Brandon this sure isn't how we'd want our 15 minutes! For those wondering about guns, people here are not allowed to carry guns with them anywhere like on a bus. From the accounts we've heard though, the suspect was more than likely dead before people had started fleeing the bus. The only difference if someone had a gun in this case would've been that the killer would at least be dead now instead of in custody.
10444It makes me sad how videos like this seem to wake up the violent, quick-to-judge sides in people..
So much negativity in the conversation here, and most of it from misunderstanding and lack of clear language. Bleh.
This is creepy as shit btw.
chilaxePictures of Tim McLean (RIP), and Vince Weiguang Li.
thinker247JERRY. JERRY, JERRY!
>> ^MarineGunrock:
I never said the situation would have been any different had someone else had a gun. All I said was what QM was saying. You're pulling shit out of your ass with absolutely no basis in reality. No where in my previous comment did I say ANYTHING that we should arm everyone to the teeth and let them handle themselves.
So "Just shut up", you can't ever construct an argument to something that was never said.
pipp3355>> ^catsaway9:
This is a great interview in the sense that the person being interviewed is extremely articulate and gives a clear and detailed account of the incident. But whoever is asking the questions is an idiot - "Had you ever seen anything like this before" DUH! "No, never seen somebody decapitated."
To be fair to the guy who asked that question, sounds like the reporters had previously found out off-camera that the interviewee was in the military already.. so it was a reasonable enough question.. also, even if he didn't know the interviewee was in the military, its possible that the interviewee could have been a bystander at the scene of a fatal car crash.. which can be very gruesome and involve decapitation..
budzos"Have you seen anything like this" means "have you ever seen astonishing violence out of context before", not "have you ever seen a man decapitated before." Get some thinking skills, all the ninnies that are acting like that's a dumb question.
MemorareOk, my reaction to this is : why didn't =YOU=, young strong healthy male in a position to do so, =DO= =SOMETHING= to help the guy!
Seriously, i'm a friggen wimp and definitely no hero but i've lived thru enough sketchy episodes to know that if someone -within arms reach of me- is being murdered i will instinctively try to grab the attackers arm or knife or jump on him or punch him or DO SOMETHING. And yeah maybe get myself killed in the process, but damn, to take the time to yell RUN AWAY RUN AWAY and yet DO NOTHING???
Fight back god damn you!
This reminds me of the famous case where neighbors heard the screams of a woman being murdered and just watched from their windows and did NOTHING.
Krupo>> ^Memorare:
Ok, my reaction to this is : why didn't =YOU=, young strong healthy male in a position to do so, =DO= =SOMETHING= to help the guy!
Seriously, i'm a friggen wimp and definitely no hero but i've lived thru enough sketchy episodes to know that if someone -within arms reach of me- is being murdered i will instinctively try to grab the attackers arm or knife or jump on him or punch him or DO SOMETHING. And yeah maybe get myself killed in the process, but damn, to take the time to yell RUN AWAY RUN AWAY and yet DO NOTHING???
Fight back god damn you!
Uh yeah, he helped save the entire bus from having anyone else get hurt or killed. That certainly counts for something.
As wonderful as a suicidal defensive rush is, if you listened to the whole video, you would've noticed that he asked another guy to join in, but the other guy bailed.
Well, a one on one fight where one guy has a big-ass knife and you have soft, fleshy arms is NOT a fair fight, Memorare.
KrupoMore news on poor Tim's life, tragically ended short.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=14060584-665f-409f-9b1f-ff776681a84e
Memorarebah, a bus full of spineless craven cowards. If any one of them would have taken action others would have jumped in to subdue the guy.
Contrast this situation with the failed 9/11 flight where the passengers decided to do something. Yeah i know different situation, different time line.
And yeah i know, easy to say from the safety of one's living room, but having been in a couple adrenaline filled situations where a stranger was going berserk in a public place, all it takes is for 1 person to fight back and make a decision to not be a victim.
PaybackNot only does playing your ipod at full volume ruin your hearing and piss off the people around you...
Shepppard>> ^Memorare:
bah, a bus full of spineless craven cowards. If any one of them would have taken action others would have jumped in to subdue the guy.
Contrast this situation with the failed 9/11 flight where the passengers decided to do something. Yeah i know different situation, different time line.
And yeah i know, easy to say from the safety of one's living room, but having been in a couple adrenaline filled situations where a stranger was going berserk in a public place, all it takes is for 1 person to fight back and make a decision to not be a victim.
The bystander effect doesn't apply here. People at the front of the bus didn't know what was going on, people at the back of the bus just saw someone getting stabbed to death and panic'd. Nobody was sitting there watching as it happened, they were getting the fuck off the bus.
It's not cowardice to run away when you don't know what's going on, it's just stupid to get yourself killed for nothing.
By the time anybody would have been able to intervene the guy was probably already dead, and nobody would have been able to do anything for him. The only SENSIBLE thing to do at that point was to keep the assailant locked up in the bus until proper authorities arrived.
treatsays...This isn't all. An English girl was decapitated by her "boyfriend" on a trip to Brazil just the other day.
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2008/08/brazilian-kills-girlfriend/cuts-her-into-pieces-and-films-it.html
gwiz665Well, cut the guy's head off right back. Problem solved.
quantumushroomAppreciating the intelligent reponses in my defense here, so to counterbalance those, MORE QM.
BECAUSE he had a knife and NOT a gun, only ONE person was killed, he wasn't able to shoot through the windows at people, he could be easily contained, couldn't shoot people as they exited the bus. etc. You've instead showed how much LESS dangerous knives are compared to guns. One is a close range, limited damage area weapon, the other can kill people at a distance.
You're somewhat correct. I should've been more precise regarding who would have a gun, the baddie or citizens. It could've been both who had guns, instead it was none. In the time frame the kook killed one victim he could just as easily stabbed 5 or 6 more people, blended in with the panicked passengers, gotten off the bus and stabbed even more people (knives don't jam). Bladed weapons are the worst...faced with such a kook the most trained martial artists would engage in "Run Fu" if they could.
I'm less concerned about the weapons involved than the complete and utter lack of martial spirit in that society.
I agree with those who think the victim really had no chance. Even if it was some kind of magical holodeck simulation where the interviewed kid would be back in the same place knowing of the impending attack, I doubt he or 99% of human beings would have the skills and speed to stop such an assault.
And to try and suggest that the death penalty is the best thing here... bravo sir. That's the way to solve everything, kill the baddies. I'm sure you'd like them to have shot him on the spot wouldn't you? So then we could have no idea of understanding why this happened or how we can prevent such things happening again.
It would have been great had the killer raised his knife to the cops and been blown away. Whether or not he was mentally ill, he would've been removed from the gene pool for the betterment of all.
If he's ruled competent and goes to court, his actions would certainly merit the death penalty, which is punishment, not vengeance.
If he's criminally insane, he and we would also be better off putting him to sleep. Use the "freebie" to test the equipment (joking...I think).
Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.
MarineGunrock"Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent."
I like that quote.
thinker247They just reported that he also ate pieces of the victim's body. This is getting so weird.
imstellar28says...To those making value judgments on the action or inaction of the bystanders, I invite you to read the following excerpt, as well as implore you to fully consider the moral implications of your perspective.
"'Sacrifice' is the surrender of a greater value for the sake of a lesser one
or of a nonvalue. Thus, altruism gauges a man’s virtue by the degree to
which he surrenders, renounces or betrays his values (since help to a stranger
or an enemy is regarded as more virtuous, less “selfish,” than help to those
one loves). The rational principle of conduct is the exact opposite: always
act in accordance with the hierarchy of your values, and never sacrifice a
greater value to a lesser one.
This applies to all choices, including one’s actions toward other men. It
requires that one possess a defined hierarchy of rational values (values
chosen and validated by a rational standard). Without such a hierarchy,
neither rational conduct nor considered value judgments nor moral choices
are possible."
"To illustrate this on the altruists’ favorite example: the issue of saving a
drowning person. If the person to be saved is a stranger, it is morally proper
to save him only when the danger to one’s own life is minimal; when the
danger is great, it would be immoral to attempt it: only a lack of self-esteem
could permit one to value one’s life no higher than that of any random
stranger. (And, conversely, if one is drowning, one cannot expect a stranger
to risk his life for one’s sake, remembering that one’s life cannot be as valu-
able to him as his own.)
If the person to be saved is not a stranger, then the risk one should be
willing to take is greater in proportion to the greatness of that person’s value
to oneself. If it is the man or woman one loves, then one can be willing to
give one’s own life to save him or her—for the selfish reason that life
without the loved person could be unbearable."
"No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an
unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be
no such thing as 'the right to enslave.'"
Now if there was a police officer, legally entrusted to serve and protect, who did not act, or the peoples of the bus had made a prior agreement to act as a unit in the event of emergency, one could make a moral case against inaction.
With regards to those arguing for/against the usage of certain items in self defense:
"There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man’s right to his own life. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action— which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life"
If you believe this to be true, you cannot make any rational argument against an individuals choice to carry any particular (inherently benign) item--knife, gun, or otherwise. It is this fundamental human right from which the right to bear arms is derived--not statistics, culture, or personal beliefs.
(quotes from Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness")
grinterAyn Rand was one scary lady.
I wonder how much suffering she has caused, indirectly, as a result of her writings?
spoco2>> ^quantumushroom: It would have been great had the killer raised his knife to the cops and been blown away. Whether or not he was mentally ill, he would've been removed from the gene pool for the betterment of all.
If he's ruled competent and goes to court, his actions would certainly merit the death penalty, which is punishment, not vengeance.
If he's criminally insane, he and we would also be better off putting him to sleep. Use the "freebie" to test the equipment (joking...I think).
Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.
Again with the thought that this person has done something terrible, and therefore the only logical solution is to kill them.
There are many cases where people who have committed terrible crimes have made the world a better place later by what they've let us know about their mindset, and ways to combat that, or by having such remorse and sorrow for what they've done that they've done great works from behind bars that have helped many others.
A swift killing of those that commit these crimes does nothing for our long term betterment as a society. Keeping them locked away is definitely a requirement, as those that have 'snapped' like this before are more than likely to do so again, but you aren't really going to learn much from someone who is just going to be killed whether they tell you their deepest, darkest secrets or not.
And for those saying 'if it were your loved one killed, you'd want them dead'. No, no I wouldn't. I wouldn't want them locked away with ANY chance of parole, that'd scare the living hell out of me, if they have a chance of coming back into society then that's not something that would make me happy, but I really, truly would rather them serve a lifetime repenting and making amends for what they did.
But people will obviously just say 'yeah, well, you haven't had it happen to you, so you can't know for sure'. And yeah, true, and let's hope none of us here are faced with this.
chilaxeRe: the virtue of selfishness.
Our personal right to life is enhanced if it's defended by our countrymen in exchange for us defending their right to life. That reciprocity, as they call it in game theory, is what keeps it from being an unrewarded duty.
While people who follow Rand's general philosophy of self-reliance will generally need less reciprocity from society, I believe being a good Randian would mean being prepared for anything, which includes getting some combat training.
imstellar28says...>> ^grinter:
Ayn Rand was one scary lady.
I wonder how much suffering she has caused, indirectly, as a result of her writings?
Which works are you referring to, and what specifically did you find frightening?
gorillamanI've been meaning to read some Ayn Rand, she seems pretty sensible.
My argument against private gun ownership is that the world is populated in the vast majority by fuckwads, who can't be trusted to make the correct moral judgments regarding their use. If most people were decent human beings who actually understood basic ethics then the right to carry weapons, and use them where appropriate, would be unimpeachable.
I'll gladly surrender my right to carry a gun to keep them out of the hands of the fuckwads.
Payback>> ^gorillaman:
... I'll gladly surrender my right to carry a gun to keep them out of the hands of the fuckwads.
Giving up your personal weapon(s) has never stopped a fuckwad from getting a gun. As long as there are people with gambling debts/drug habits in the military, and bad police officers, there will be illicit weapons. If they shove the parts up the ass of someone coming in from a third (or second) world country "under the wire" there will be illicit guns.
Do you think alqueda gets it's AK47's from Russia/China? Only a few, because THEY BUILD THE DAMN THINGS THEMSELVES. Saturday Night Special - Assault Edition. Only a matter of time before those start showing up, en masse, over here.
One thing always struck me about the NRA. "Better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it."
A gun may not have changed the outcome of this crime, but what if one of the teachers at Columbine was carrying?
I'm waiting for one of the continuing school shootings to be stopped by someone with an illegal weapon... wouldn't that be a kick in the head?
imstellar28says...Quote:
"Re: the virtue of selfishness.
Our personal right to life is enhanced if it's defended by our countrymen in exchange for us defending their right to life. That reciprocity, as they call it in game theory, is what keeps it from being an unrewarded duty.
While people who follow Rand's general philosophy of self-reliance will generally need less reciprocity from society, I believe being a good Randian would mean being prepared for anything, which includes getting some combat training."
While there could be a net benefit in helping your fellow man in return for help yourself-- this "contract" or "obligation" cannot be morally forced and must be volunteered. Thus, my point was that it is not possible to make a moral argument against the people of the bus who did not act to save the victim. Whether you realize it or not, you probably have entered into this "contract" with your family and friends. Chances are if it was your brother, mother, daughter, friend or otherwise in that bus seat being stabbed, you would immediately act to help them, regardless of the danger to yourself. As the excerpt detailed, it would take a low self-esteem, or an irrational and immoral action to risk ones life for a complete stranger--given that you yourself may have others (who you value) that depend on your life, be it your children, parents, friends, or spouse (not to mention yourself).
The sad reality, is that the victim was sleeping and the attacker took advantage of this. One cannot attempt a defense, however ineffective it may be, while they are unconscious.
As far as the requirements of a "Randian," there is nothing in Objectivism (Ayn Rand's philosophy), to my knowledge, that requires being prepared for all situations. The philosophy simply espouses acting as a rational being, while adhering to the fundamental human right I quoted.
Quote:
I've been meaning to read some Ayn Rand, she seems pretty sensible.
I would highly recommend "For the New Intellectual" and "The Virtue of Selfishness"
Asmosays...>> ^quantumushroom:
If he's criminally insane, he and we would also be better off putting him to sleep. Use the "freebie" to test the equipment (joking...I think).
Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.
Or, you know, treat his psychosis if he has indeed suffered a psychotic break.
It'll be for people involved in the case to decide if he falls under mental defect or not and the case will run accordingly, but you cannot hold a person responsible for what occurs during a break beyond consigning them to treatment until such time as they are deemed fit again.
To do anything else would be cruel.
Edit: And the comments on the end of previously linked news article prove my point...
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=14060584-665f-409f-9b1f-ff776681a84e
The amount of knee jerking going on is understandable but is driven purely from emotion. For all we know the murderer may just be a soulless bastard who deserves to die or just some poor bastard who for whatever reason snapped. Seems strange that, if he was such a horrible person, he doesn't have a criminal record...
spoco2The problem with people reading this, and following it is that it would seem that people's definition of when the danger to their own life is minimal is pretty damn microscopic. "No, I don't believe I'll go and help that guy, yeah, I probably would be able to and not be put in mortal danger... but, you know, I've got a meeting later and, I'd just rather not get involved"
I've had an occasion to help a guy who I watched fly through the air from his motorbike after hitting a car in traffic, and stayed with him until the ambulance arrived, and I've helped someone who fainted on a train, so I like to think that in most situations I'd step in... people's apathy and huge sence of self preservation over all else is a little scary.
enemycombatantsays...I'd still rather ride it than the Fung Wah Bus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fung_wah#Safety
SagemindA lot of confusion and emotion here guys (& girls).
Don't turn against each other in the confusion.
We all react differently, that's how we function as a society.
Anger, Sadness, Remorse, Horror, Whatever! It is still emotion and we as human beings are all shocked and confused.
My heart weeps for humanity and everyone involved as the mental images will last in us for a very long time.
calvados*dark as fuck
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calvados*fear too
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Mandtis*length=7:02
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bcglorfsays...Being that I'm from Brandon myself, I thought I'd add an update.
Vince Li, the killer from this incident, was found to be not criminally responsible.
There are things I hate about my country, and one of them is the justice system's failure in dealing with those guilty of horrifically violent crimes. Notices of the release of repeat sex offenders deemed a high risk to re-offend are sent out almost monthly. I believe it's gonna take vigilante acts before sanity reasserts itself up here on this issue.
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