So, you think I'm wonderful?

and you think I'm male...?

Thanks for the intelligent input, guys.

who's viewing this post right now
Crosswords - mundanest - Bleedingsnowman - Farhad2000 - rychan - UsesProzac ....
all these guys think yer hot, or else kinna cute inna, "what can I say to help this damsel in distress" sorta way......

now, lemme go read yer,
*long-winded diatribe.....

Randall Munroe of XKCD, had a post breaking down the 2 leads of the top 20 movies in recent years. since 2004 only the Devil Wares Prada and Scary Movie 4. Had two female leads.

Really, Choggie? Seriously? I can't believe you just said that. *pouts*

That's it. I'm going to change my picture to one of a dog or something.

And yes, it is a long-winded diatribe. Sorry.

Thanks you thank you thank you for your awesome comment. The first one! I'm gonna put this link in my post.

Mu>> ^mundanest:
Randall Munroe of XKCD, had a post breaking down the 2 leads of the top 20 movies in recent years. since 2004 only the Devil Wares Prada and Scary Movie 4. Had two female leads.

Feminist-n. 1.A woman who is tired of being treated like shit.

Best definition I can come up with, based on all the bullshit extant on the subject from all manner of damaged goods, well-wishers, and hopeful humans.....
It is input, process, and response that serves to create the word and world kiddies, the response, and subsequent process as well, and for as many perceptions of what the term "feminist" means to as many people, you here rant for all to read .....It's meant different things throughout time and history to many cultures, and in more readily accessible ways, too (unbridled public sexual intercourse, multiple mates, etc.)
Feminism to choggie, is the realization that women are the great balance and stability afforded to the species, and are half of everything males are with regard to self and place i.e. genetics/... and in the current paradigm of strong over weak, helper over helpless, some asshole fucked everything up by deciding their way, was the way to steer the course of what became the eventual unconscious impulse, which drives us in the direction of all this woe-is-everybodyism that seems to be some common vibe.....OR?? Males have an impulse which can't be stifled for the sake of the entire species, and some use more playful language in public forums than others care to....KNOW your territory, and navigate accordingly... Suggestings more sex for everybody, and heroic amounts of not-working, sleeping late, (this is a checklist fellas) over-eating, and all manner of similar debaucheries...life is short, don't stay pissed-off for too long, yer tits will fall off-uhhhh, guys have titties too, so semantics be damned, thank you for letting me bitch....

I second the hot comment.

I definitely don't have the feminist chops to argue with you on feminist grounds, so I'm going to comment here as a place holder. But I'll ask you this: I know that there are different schools of thought when it comes to feminism, and your position strikes me as being particularly extreme. Do you at least acknowledge that there exist those who call themselves feminists who are pro-pornography?

As I said, I'm not "feminist enough" to argue with you on those grounds, but I do consider myself feminist. Actually, I consider myself humanist, that is: I believe that people should be free to their own self-determination.

As for the media being fucked up, well shit- everybody knows that. The movies aren't like real life? Holy fuck, somebody get a news crew over here. This is the first time anybody has ever noticed that movies and television weren't exactly like real life. Wow.

If you want to complain about feminism in this world, please unphotoshop your avatar. Secondly, booyah!

I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS, TROLL.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/377051/What-is-the-Monkeysphere

It's pretty simple if it's tl;dr for you. People rarely give a shit about people they don't know. It's a limitation of our brains. For you to be fighting the great fight and making people aware of feminism, you're really only doing it to make yourself and your friends happy. It relates to your experiences, or it wouldn't be an issue to you. So in fact the reason you are sitting here blabbing all over the sift about how this world is run by guys, when you have it pretty damn good considering your great grandmothers were alive to make babies and clean/cook. If you find injustice in the world, go take actions instead of sitting here posting on the internet with your filter-enhanced image, telling everyone that their way of doing things is wrong. Complaining never does any good.

You need to have sexuality to be normal. Sexuality a basic process of emotional fulfillment and the basic need to want to be immortal by passing your genes to a child. Even my girl (karkarlee) enjoys the female body in it's truest form. A work of art. Women enjoy women, men enjoy women. If you don't like it, go live on an island by yourself. You can call it "The Island Lesbos"

As for the male leads in movies, and lack of female leads, I have one simple answer. It's the media. Never trust the media, they try to tell you how to think. If you want to sit here and call us men on this site sexist, maybe you should take a look about how you're judging the men on this site as a whole and using stereotypes to argue your point.

http://www.videosift.com/video/INSANE-satanic-death-metal-music-video-NSFW
http://www.videosift.com/video/Kaiser-Chiefs-I-Predict-a-Riot

Feminism: Equal work, equal pay.

If you're looking for sudden, automatic respect then look somewhere else. These dipshits put me through hell when I first tried getting my bearings around this place and I still barely have more respect than a church mouse. You can look at some of our former conversations as proof.

If you want equal respect then keep doing what you're doing, get more girls on the sift, band together with the other matriarchs.

In general , the internet forums are a boys club, not by bias but by circumstance.

Also guys will never be ashamed of being guys. We will hoot an holler.

Get more hooters and hollers on your side. No pun intended, seriously, that sounded really bad.

"I know I'm a dipshit.....Have to tell me, wills ya?!

While you do a good job pointing out some perceived flaws, am curious to find out what you would do to reverse this trend? I think alot of what you mention is actually sociological and natural in our society. What you are pushing for is as DjSunKid said an extremist stance of feminism.

While there are women who strive to be the leaders in their profession and achieve something for themselves, there is a large segment of the female population that is quite alright with fitting in the stereotype of being female, of dressing up, of being sexy, of being chased, screeching when they see a mouse and looking for a big strong man. There is a entire industry centered around this. This is a standard that has been psychologically upheld by society as a whole, and women themselves. Something I see alot in the society where I live, the Arab world, very few girls try hard here because why should they? They are going to marry a Arabian Istallion and have kids and shop in Gucci and Versace. They are perfectly happy in that role.

I think some of that is social, some of it is psychological from media exposure, the barbie dolls, the princess stories and so on that build up a psychological outlook that some connect with and accept as their own and some reject.

For example look at someone like Ayn Rand.

I talked to a lot of medical students, some of them were female, most of them were heading to OBYGN and pediatrics, both deal with kids and children. They choose to do so. You will hardly find many women in the role of surgeon for example. Is this discrimination?

Back in University I had a chance to befriend a woman in her 50s who was doing adult education, she looked and acted alot like a man. Probing her previous profession she told me she was a construction foreman. She explained that for co workers and clients to take her seriously she had to adopt a hard exterior, or else no one would have obeyed her as a boss or took her seriously managerially. But she had no quams about this, she said certain businesses require male standpoint, not to mean the sex but the qualities, hard, aggressive and stubborn.

Look at how Hillary Clinton tried to meld her campaign, did it pay for her to play on her female side? did it pay for her to become more manly? Then look at someone like Margaret Thatcher. She was asexual as far as am concerned in her politics.

The equality of sexes has been reached, and there has been large progress since the 1800s and the suffrage movement. Women have the right to vote, work, enter politics, and professional occupations. There is still inequality when it comes to pay scale but I believe this is balancing out now in the world economy because administration and business is gender neutral most of the time. Results are far more important.

But does it mean the higher echelons of power are male dominated? Not at all. Germany, Bangladesh, US and many other nations have females who reached high levels of power. There is an abundance of strong female role models.

With regards to the comments on this website, this is the internet the demographic of this website is in the 18-25 range most are students, many are lonely introverted types. Most are male, some are here before or after being to a porn site. This goes a long way to describe the "Omfg shes hot" type of comments.

With regards to cinema and the like, its business. Its marketing and demographics, one shouldn't read too much into it.

The problem Hollywood has with creating female heroes is that they work on base levels so they push a hard women, which is psychologically constructed in such a way as being Bitchy. This is frankly because people in Hollywood think on those levels, they never deal in complicated characters. They need standardized themes, of conflict, and love and very often a strange sex scene where you didn't expect one.

Take the example of Lara Croft that was made into two films. The video game portrayed her as a smart intelligent royal who did tomb raids. Instead of vividly exploring this, by way of Batman orgins where she say fell into a cave and explored and developed into a tom boy and found a ancient dagger or something, they instead went simply with telling the audience that she is that way because her daddy was like that. Because Hollywood producers are idiots and they are desperately trying to connect and hit that 15-20 year demographic that needs to see a tit.

I'm really not altogether sure what the fuss is about here?
Are you looking for fewer incidental obnoxious comments by males about females? More sifted videos with girls? Just altogether incensed by the general tone of the messages in the Burlesque sift thread? (Admittedly, I stopped reading those about halfway in)

>> ^NicoleBee:
I'm really not altogether sure what the fuss is about here?
Are you looking for fewer incidental obnoxious comments by males about females? More sifted videos with girls? Just altogether incensed by the general tone of the messages in the Burlesque sift thread? (Admittedly, I stopped reading those about halfway in)


IMO she just wants something to bitch about. *shrugs*

(Notice the link to this sift talk. I found it offensive in my own right. http://terrible.videosift.com/talk/This-is-why-Im-a-feminist-Sad-sad-sad )

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

This is an interesting discussion - and I agree with the main thrust of your argument. Women are under-represented here and sometimes the threads read like an all guy fishing trip. Minus the farts and beer.

To a large degree I think Farhad is right - much of the over-representation of males and attracive females is a larger sociological thing - but that doesn't make it right.

Men are very visually stimulated. A video of an angry Lara Logan makes us hot - we can't help it. And having this emotion, we're likely to express that in a comment thread.

I would like to make VideoSift more welcoming and comfortable for females. I like women and I don't want VideoSift to be a lopsided gender mutant sausage fest.

Any ideas on how to accomplish this?

Accusing the men of the sites for being sexist probably isn't a good start. The best thing IMO would be for the women to post more videos that would appeal to other women. Oh wait, that's stereotyping and not all women like womenly things. Damn, it looks like we can't breathe without seeming sexist. (Sorry, I just really hate feminists. All talk no walk. Worst then Door to Door Mormons because they have an offensive attitude about it. Atleast most of them.) I treat women like human beings. Just because A MALE human enjoys a FEMALE human in a burlesque that no one is forcing her to do (See http://www.videosift.com/video/Dita-Von-Teese-New-Orleans-Burlesque-StripTease-Performance ) or any other situation where a woman is portrayed in a sexual nature of any way shape of form, does not mean that man is being sexist. Just because there are leads roles of the male nature in movies from Hollywood, does not mean all men are sexist. Just because men are interested in beautiful women does not make a man sexist. Men like women. Women like men. Women like women. Men like men. That's just how it is.

Finally, I'll give a word of advice. If you want to point out how wrong our world is because it is run by men, by all means, do so. But don't sit here and blame a casual internet viewer of videos of being sexist, because that's not where the problem lies. Most people on this site are above average intelligence. It's like that for a reason. Give us the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming everyone here is an asshole for objectifying women, and give us the right to speak our minds. "That chick is hot." Is a completely acceptable reply to the viewing of a beautiful female body. By ANY gender.

i'd say the situation on the sift is still better than on some other similar sites i've visited frequently; regarding "equal" representation of both sexes, i mean

>> ^dag:
This is an interesting discussion - and I agree with the main thrust of your argument. Women are under-represented here and sometimes the threads read like an all guy fishing trip. Minus the farts and beer.


Ohhh. Well, if this is what it's all about - I can understand. Perhaps I'm rather desensitized - some people can be, and are, quite frequently taxing to put up with on the interwebs for the whole gamut of reasons, sometimes least of all sexism! There is nothing much to do about the demographic of the sift or the videos it results in save for trying to change it. tell your family, your friends, that sort of thing? Personally I find a lot here I do like and just disregard that which disinterests me, I don't see why what content other people tend to like on any side of the gender fence should become some sort of an issue.

Me, I just let my eyes glaze over and move on when there is dorkery in progress.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I have a feeling that the uproar from another thread is bleeding into this one. I'm not on everyone else's uproar level yet. (I'll have to go look at the burlesque thread)

At least you don't need to fight for VideoSift suffrage.

Harry Potter may be the protagonist of his books and movies, but his creator is a female billionaire. The world is changing.

First of all, I'm female.

I believe in equality between men and women just as much as you do. As I see it, equality isn't just about being able to do the same exact things. People are unique. Broadly, men and women, function differently emotionally as well as physically. It's something that I find absolutely fascinating and it always makes me sad when someone can't understand that while men and women can be equal, the complexities of that equality reach far deeper than a list of who what when where why. Both genders are unappreciated by each other. Even more sadly, people are unappreciated for things they do that are either subtle or against gender roles.

Our society might make women objects, but men aren't anything more. A man has to be strong, tall, rugged, handsome, has to support his family with acceptable work, can't be gay - and has to prove his heterosexuality, has to succeed in subjects such as math and science, be caring - despite all the emotional repression, etc etc. Why does this sound so old, so traditional and behind the times? Unfortunately, it isn't.

On the net it's easy to see men as nothing more than the comments they say. 'Oh, he's such a shallow bastard!' How is that, in any way, fair to a man? Women, having had their fight to equality, don't realize that they can stop fighting now. It's gone too far. A man can't bitch at a woman for commenting on the hotness of another man, it'd make him horrible and repressing. A woman can tell a man he's disgusting and shallow for looking at porn, and it makes her strong and independent. Feminism is about equality, not about women. Why should women get more rights than men just because they're supposedly suppressed? If someone is human, then they hurt. They feel pain. Imagine not being able to express your pain, having to be strong, being misunderstood and unloved for your anger that's there because you aren't allowed to express yourself. Can you imagine that? Have you ever had a really bad day where you tore everyone apart, people you cared about, because you were upset but didn't feel it was in your place? Did you know while it was happening, what it was that you were doing - hurting others, but not being able to get passed it? Imagine feeling like that every single time you get upset. Even worse, imagine not being able to express yourself when it comes to beauty. Men are fascinated by women, attracted to them in ways that are far more than sexual. Women are mysterious and beautiful to them. But they get punished for saying such, they're shallow for it.

What can you expect from a guy if he gets the anonymity he needs to be able to say whatever he wants? I bet it's a thrill for them to be able to joke about how hot a chick is, in public and not having to be careful around the women that they'd hurt with such a comment. What can you expect from a man that isn't allowed to cry, is pressured to make the money and keep the woman that doesn't bother to understand him satisfied? I've been around so many little boys that were just.. true gems of humanity, that were punished by their parents for liking things they shouldn't. 'No, don't go picking the flowers. Yes they're pretty, but that's what girls do. Your sister can pick them for mommy. You have to be a big boy now, go play with your trucks.' Little girls get the same treatment, but not to as harsh of a degree. A girl that can count in her head and run just as fast as the boys is rewarded for her behavior. A boy can't be interested in certain colors, but girls can like all of them. Women can have pretty much any job and be considered a strong, working woman. A man can't sew, or make certain types of music, work as a florist. He's seen as gay generally, or in some way less of a man, if he does. Is this right?

When it comes to porn.. I used to have a lot of trouble with my guy watching that. I saw it as him not wanting me, that I wasn't satisfying sexually. But as you said, women in porn are nothing but objects. That's what porn is for. There is nothing in mainstream porn that tries to make a viewer love the people within the video. It's about the raw, instinctual response to sex. There aren't supposed to be any emotions around it. It doesn't make the man want you any less, or see you as an object, unless there are other, REAL problems in the relationship. Porn makes us time between me and my guy more special, and there's nothing keeping me from sharing it with him. We can enjoy our sexuality

I find a lot of beauty in the female body. Added to the unique qualities of every single woman, emotionally and physically, and you've got billions of masterpieces all over the world. While some might be more famous, or more symmetrical and therefore aesthetically attractive, every single woman on the world supports and wields more power than she or anyone, really, will be aware of. When the power is realized it's used for negative things a lot of the time ( seducing to get what she wants, like money, for example ) but it can be used for good just as much. But while women have a lot of power, men have just as much in ways that they won't reach because of their required roles in society.

If you've ever had a problem with a guy over porn, then it's a misunderstanding. If you don't want to be open about a guy's feelings regarding porn, if you're that strongly against it, then it'd be best if you added that to the first date convo. 'I don't accept porn.' Eventually you'll get a guy that agrees with you - yes there are guys out there that don't enjoy porn. Stereotypes are nothing more than a generalization.. Men can be wonderful and women can be horrible and disgusting.

Men and women are equal. Equally surpressed. The best way to get around that is to just love yourself, appreciate you for who YOU are. Not for what you're supposed to be because you're a chick. If you can really and truly do that to yourself, then you should be able to see the true beauty in others, and leave these stereotypes behind. Guys are just as repressed.. And worse yet they're not allowed to talk about it.

I hope something I've said has reached you.. I'm sorry that you have to feel all this anger and that these posts are probably just upsetting you more. Like Obsidianfire said, monkey sphere.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

*promote for the discussion.

Promoting this Sift Talk post - promote requested by dag.

So You have You Mention my Video in your Post Too..wow My video is so famous..I love this Drama

>> ^dag:

I would like to make VideoSift more welcoming and comfortable for females. I like women and I don't want VideoSift to be a lopsided gender mutant sausage fest.
Any ideas on how to accomplish this?


Maybe theme weeks that emphasise certain tags and channels could be a good start?

Ugh. I'm going to make this point as simple and clear as I can:

Woman CAN NOT be objectified without becoming objects. Pr0n "actresses" are objects of desire. Yes. That is THEIR choosing.

And really? Complaining about the top videos because they're all male? Sift more awesome clips with women. It's not that hard. I can run through your list and tell you which ones would have just as many votes if they were of a female:


1. A very talented MAN playing the ukelele.Doesn't count - those votes were all cronies. I've ben tempted to just discard it.

2. Two talented BOYS' well-made lightsaber video. Yup. If it were girls, it would have had the same. Thing is, you don't see many uber-geek girls, do you?

3. Autistic BOY being awesome at a b-ball game It's not the fact he has wedding tackle that made this video great, it's that he triumphed through his autism

4. Talented MALE robot dancer Again, it got the votes because it was really cool to see, not because he's got a banana and kiwis.

5. Prairie Dog, generally accepted as MALE. Thus: Drama KING I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't check for a prairie pecker before I clicked upvote.

6. Very clever rant about Pachebel. Again, a talented and clever MAN. What's that first adjective? And then the second? Those would be the reasons for the votes, not his twig and berries.

7. FINALLY, an intelligent WOMAN with integrity. What can I say? I like getting my bad news from someone that's easy on the eyes..

8. Awesome commercial. The Wind is a tall MAN doing funny things. Love this sift. I got nothin'

9. Drug spiders. MALE spiders? (Mr. Crack Spider, etc.), Male narrator. If they had made the crack spider a crack spideretts, I'm sure feminists would be pissed about that instead. Gender of the narrator does not make a difference. The script was the humor.

10. Quantum Physics narrated and explained by a MALE scientist.Maybe you want to get a degree in quantum physics and deliver that same speech? NO ONE watched that video and said "oh, I LOVE that Captain Q guy!" - No, they loved the explanation.

11. Clever prank, talented FEMALES, MALE narrator. (Yay!) All old/overweight women are the ones being tricked, all beautiful and young females are the tricksters. Oh come on. Are you really suggesting that they only let fat old women into that washroom? And are you forgetting about the guy? "No! You can't go in there! You're too hot to be pranked!" I think not.

12. Jon Stewart (MAN) being funny and clever and awesome. Again, the three adjectives?

13. A beautiful GIRL with a great bod doing something pretty cool. I would bet that at least 85% of the votes were received because of the comical novelty of the act.
14. Dolphins blowing bubbles
15. Cool music video. MALE vocals, MALE hands. Again, are you telling me that people only voted after they looked and made sure they could see hair on the arms? I sincerely doubt it.

The lesson here is that you could see shit anywhere you look for it. That doesn't mean it's true.

Interesting gender discussion..

Some time ago I found this an interesting clip to discuss, still needs some follow up..so what do you think?
http://www.videosift.com/video/Top-Gear-Boobies
When discussing feminism the masculist perspective also needs to be considered, even though a bigger focus on feminism is often justified these days.

Other interesting examples:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Ghahr-o-ashtee-by-Shaghayegh
http://www.videosift.com/video/Awkward-Meg-Ryan-interview-by-Michael-Parkinson

When we named our top film directors there happened to be no women included (also has to do with the art form)..I tried to find some, but apart from Jane Campion I personally could not find other candidates:
http://cinema.videosift.com/talk/Top-5-Directors#comment-355936
In general in the world of ideas there's an underrepresentation of women, despite opportunities for women to bring out their ideas.

There are so many ways of looking at gender. It's difficult to give clear cut answers..

I'd just like to point out that Titanic has both a male and female lead protagonist.

>> ^Kreegath:
I'd just like to point out that Titanic has both a male and female lead protagonist.


And ships are always female...

Yeah, while most flicks may have a male protagonist, there is almost always a female companion.

*quality

Awarding thepinky with one star point for this contribution to Sift Talk - declared quality by Ryjkyj.

*unquality.

I really hope you're an atheist, because this would be fucking awesome for telling you "You want to see why males are the way we are?"

http://www.videosift.com/video/Orangutan-Sexual-Terrorist

I was going to write a long-winded reply, but then others here like Farhad and karkarlee already expressed most of what I wanted to say.

I'm pretty sure I understand where you're coming from, and I respect that. I also respect that you put yourself out there by posting this article in the first place. Even if it makes many defensive, you still made people think. That's better than most the stuff I read on the internet these days.

A rule of thumb I try to follow for posting a comment anywhere on the internet is this: If I were to go to work and say out loud what I wrote here, would I possibly get into trouble? I'm not talking about my occasional use of profanity, but would I make a remark that could be construed as disrespectful to females, a minority, or the handicapped, or what have you? I do my best to avoid making those kinds of comments, though I know I've screwed up on more than one occasion. I don't want this place to turn into a locker room, but maybe you feel it already has become that way or that it is becoming that way, and so you feel compelled to attempt to reverse the trend. I can definitely respect that.

As far as women in film, music, news, etc. are concerned, I think Farhad addressed that issue quite well. All I can add is that the news and entertainment industries are still largely run by males, so that's why we largely see males in movies, music, and the news. Hopefully that will change (slowly but surely) over time. In the mean time I can say that I LOVE listening to great female vocals in music, and I've told several people here that already. It's not at all a sexual thing; I just really appreciate the sound a good female voice can create. Not that one man's taste is going to change the world, but I think we've seen an increase in successful female musicians over the years, so I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. That's got to count for something.

I know several women have already weighed in on this discussion, but I'm hoping to hear from more. Again, thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

Jeeeeez kronos...Was?
Fork! What the hell is that I wrote all rambly'...sheeeesh!(sake)
hehehe MG, bananas and kiwis.....
Girl POwer!!!

And my thoughts on Dita Von Teese's burlesque can be found here:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Dita-Von-Teese-New-Orleans-Burlesque-StripTease-Performance#comment-464035

>> ^MarineGunrock:
The lesson here is that you could see shit anywhere you look for it. That doesn't mean it's true.

I am a woman. I am a lover, a mother, and I am a hedonist. I love the quote above.

You make your reality.
If you like having a victim mentality, you will see all this shit.
It IS a choice. Seriously.
There won't be any "banding together" with this female (me), because I am "causeless"...just enjoying my life and all the variety therein. Good and Bad.
I hope you get there, too because you're a smart girl and could really be enjoying your life.
Like choggie said, don't stay pissed off for too long!

You want my retort? Ok here ya go:

"Shut up and show me your boobies."

I've got a girlfriend that I treat fairly and equally to me. I don't have to prove shit to you people on the internet.

Men...I'll take you seriously the day you aren't human.

Women, the same goes for you...

>> ^dag:

I like women and I don't want VideoSift to be a lopsided gender mutant sausage fest.
Any ideas on how to accomplish this?


Honestly, I've got nothing. It already is a sausage fest. I am more than willing to give you a list of problems I have with the site, though.

1) The way of judging whether or not a video stays is if you, a MAN, get an erection after watching. When was the last time a woman's perspective was taken into consideration? Never. Chances are women either feel objectified or get irritated for whatever reason watching a video like the one that prompted this post. I know I did. But because someone with a vagina posted it and the rest of the boys like it, it won't be removed. The thumbnail blares her breasts across the front page (or did for several hours yesterday), forcing me to not visit the front page at all either at work or at home, because I don't want my boss or my parents walking over and seeing that, and yet no one has felt the need to change it. If I could, I would.

2) Go take a look at some of the comments thepinky listed earlier, or any comments on a video where the woman is hot, or a stripper, or that stupid Wii Fit video... any of them. That is another reason I've grown to dislike the Sift. I joined for the discussion, not for the videos. I don't have a working TV in my house. I have never gone to see a movie in theaters that I have paid for, and the only DVDs I own were gifts. Do I give a shit about the videos? As a general rule, no. If I see something that I feel objectifies women, yes. But the discussion - is there anything to discuss with a bunch of pigs? No. Form intelligent discussion, please.

3) Sausage fests promote and encourage nasty man behavior - something that would never be acceptable at home. For all the men who watched and voted for that video, how do you think your girlfriend would feel if she came home and saw you watching some other woman's breasts bouncing around your screen? I'll tell you. Pissed. Irritated. Livid. Betrayed. Hurt. Just because it doesn't give you a raging erection doesn't mean it's not porn, or that it is in the least bit acceptable.

I wouldn't complain if everything with the NSFW tag that wasn't tagged that way because of language was taken off the Sift. Those stupid videos have caused enough problems in my personal life.

>> ^LittleRed:
>> ^dag:
I like women and I don't want VideoSift to be a lopsided gender mutant sausage fest.
Any ideas on how to accomplish this?

Honestly, I've got nothing. It already is a sausage fest. I am more than willing to give you a list of problems I have with the site, though.
1) The way of judging whether or not a video stays is if you, a MAN, get an erection after watching. When was the last time a woman's perspective was taken into consideration? Never. Chances are women either feel objectified or get irritated for whatever reason watching a video like the one that prompted this post. I know I did. But because someone with a vagina posted it and the rest of the boys like it, it won't be removed. The thumbnail blares her breasts across the front page (or did for several hours yesterday), forcing me to not visit the front page at all either at work or at home, because I don't want my boss or my parents walking over and seeing that, and yet no one has felt the need to change it. If I could, I would.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE: You feel the human body is a shameful, and sexual activity should be repressed. Sorry we men like talking about our feelings, even if those feelings are carnal.
2) Go take a look at some of the comments thepinky listed earlier, or any comments on a video where the woman is hot, or a stripper, or that stupid Wii Fit video... any of them. That is another reason I've grown to dislike the Sift. I joined for the discussion, not for the videos. I don't have a working TV in my house. I have never gone to see a movie in theaters that I have paid for, and the only DVDs I own were gifts. Do I give a shit about the videos? As a general rule, no. If I see something that I feel objectifies women, yes. But the discussion - is there anything to discuss with a bunch of pigs? No. Form intelligent discussion, please.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE: Anything to discuss with a bunch of pigs? I'm a pig now? At least we get out of the house a bit. I guess I have nothing in common with a crazy cat lady who has a bad case of cabin fever.
3) Sausage fests promote and encourage nasty man behavior - something that would never be acceptable at home. For all the men who watched and voted for that video, how do you think your girlfriend would feel if she came home and saw you watching some other woman's breasts bouncing around your screen? I'll tell you. Pissed. Irritated. Livid. Betrayed. Hurt. Just because it doesn't give you a raging erection doesn't mean it's not porn, or that it is in the least bit acceptable.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE: See, again you're assuming our better half's are sexually repressed and terrified of their own naked body. Mine's not. None of my friends are either. My gf saw the thumbnail, watched the video, and enjoyed it. Don't assume everyone has your values, and we should be judged by them as well. This is the internet, and until some politician decides otherwise, you're gonna get ALL our opinions, not just the ones that you think are worth hearing.
I wouldn't complain if everything with the NSFW tag that wasn't tagged that way because of language was taken off the Sift. Those stupid videos have caused enough problems in my personal life.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE:The fact that a video on a fucking web site has caused you personal life problems, says it all. Turn of the glow box with the klik-klak keys, and do something else.

One Thousand Years
The 100 People Who Made The Millennium
What, no Babe Ruth? How, ask you, could a list of millennium's most important people not include the Sultan of Swat? Plenty of other monarchs failed to make the lineup as well. To get on this team, a person had to change more than just a corner of the world-he or she had to divert the great stream of human history, alter our perceptions perceptibly. A runner edged out Ruth (and Jackie Robinson) by setting a new standard for any owner on two legs. You'll find his name at No. 92 on the following list, which ranks the honorees by importance. Many names will be familiar from the events section, but not all. A few-Watt, Koch, Gutenberg-appear there but not here. Some of history's paramount figures are remembered more for a single accomplishment (such as ushering in the age of print) than for the force of their personalities. Though the actions of the individuals who made the list affected all kinds of people, they are an overwhelmingly male, pale bunch. All but 17 are of European extraction; only ten are women. This reflects not the biases of LIFE's editors and expert advisers but the sociopolitical realities of the past thousand years. For most of that time, as Virginia Woolf noted, women have served largely as "looking-glasses...reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size." Likewise, the millennium's most conspicuous historical movement has been the rise of the West-which means Westerners often borrowing ideas and technology from other peoples, have done a disproportionate amount of global moving and shaking. The next millennium's list of planet-rattlers promises to look strikingly different.
LIFE magazine
http://www.tostepharmd.net/hissoc/top100people.html
I included this in the discussion because I consider it to both vital and relevant. Also, it's from a kick ass book(The 100 Most Important Events & People of the Past 1,000 Years), one of my favorites.
I also feel this is relevant to the discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy

The world just got a little gayer because of this Sift Talk post.

LittleRed and thepinky, an observation from a man, who sees expression of self and constancy, righteousness, and dignity as available to whomever will avail themselves of it-
The truth is, humans prey on other humans in the society we live in, it gets worse, as the breakdown of society becomes more glaringly apparent, relative to the leadership, and the complacency and dumbing-down of the subjects. People have always had free will, few exercise it or are capable. We are reaching another transition/Armageddon(figuratively speaking) stage in world societies, and these are some of the signs: Violence, self-servitude, Nihilism, self-abuse, and unconcern for one's fellow man, to the point of self-extinction(the folks who want the world to themselves, want it however they can get it)

I understand the phenom, that from one's process and exposure extant in any individual's life, through their unique filter, the world becomes what they want, or think it should be-There are talented women and men, who can make a living given the venue and the room to move-Some of these performers need a niche they can be secure in, without the abuse-Burlesque is in revival hon, and always is during and prior to, really hard times (i.E. wars, or collapse of infrastructure and economy..this being the fault, not necessarily of the people, but of the few who have orchestrated such a fall for their own selfish ends)

All for morality, decency, etc. if its the natural course of the human condition, which it is, and is un-manipulated or capitalized upon by the strong over the weak scenario....(taking advantage of it, for selfish gain) Just as I am for anything presented, that raises awareness and consciousness, in an individual.

Hope Dita Von Teese, the discussion that followed thepinky tirade here, and this message has done as much-Peace girl-frintz!!

>> ^LittleRed:

Honestly, I've got nothing. It already is a sausage fest. I am more than willing to give you a list of problems I have with the site, though.
1) The way of judging whether or not a video stays is if you, a MAN, get an erection after watching. When was the last time a woman's perspective was taken into consideration? Never. Chances are women either feel objectified or get irritated for whatever reason watching a video like the one that prompted this post.

I'd say the reason for the "wood test" is because 99.99999% of porn is made to arouse men.
Therefore, if (the majority, if not all of) men are not aroused, then I think that means it's not porn.

Someone mentioned elsewhere (I think it was Farhad) romance novels. I would say that if a woman would be upset by her boyfriend watching this, then her guy should be just as, if not more pissed about them reading dirty romance novels.
Those things can be on par with some nasty Penthouse Forum "letters".

The video in question (Dita) is an act of grace a beauty, not a vivid depiction of sex. The act is designed to be something that one merely watches, from which they are detached and it is forever that way. It is a solo act meant to please for the sake of a good show.

Dirty books, on the other hand, are of a couple's acts in the bedroom, written to suck the reader into the characters words and actions, even letting them place themselves into the character's shoes. The book is more about being a part of the act, making the reader imagine (through ample use of details and adjectives) every part of sex. It's porn you read, and not watch, though I will say it is not disgusting or objectifying as real porn.

My question to you is this: How can you tell the internet in one comment that "Even I can appreciate burlesque"

but in the next, tell the internet that it's not acceptable for men with significant others to watch it, if only for art of the performance?

I hold that burlesque is only that; an art. I personally don't get any arousal from it, not does it raise any carnal desires within myself. Hell, I've only seen two instances of it, both here on the sift. The female body, with all it's curves, is designed to flow like water in almost all directions. Combined with graceful movements and a dynamic act, it is a thing of grace and beauty.

The male body is usually ugly from an artistic standpoint. It has lots of hard edges, and is not visually streamlined with gentle curves. I believe that's why you don't see any form of male burlesque.

etc.etc....But the discussion - is there anything to discuss with a bunch of pigs? No. Form intelligent discussion, please.

I believe you may be confusing irreverent, ironic humor with sexism.
Frankie says relax.



Anyway, it isn't true at all that there are few movies with female leads. There are loads of them... they just are often geared toward women and men have little interest in their subject matter, so we don't go and see them. Removing half the entire potential viewer-base will sink most movies.
Action movies tend to focus on male main characters more than female, at least in the past. They're shifting toward more balance these days since a badass woman can be ... awesome. Action movies were/are geared toward male viewers and thus have male leads. Men tend to watch more movies than women in general so movies geared toward men [or toward both men and women, or neither] tend to be blockbusters. In addition, men are by definition, in general masculine. When a woman takes a lead role in an action film (with marvel as one of many exceptions), she is typically masculinized (if that were a word) to fit the requirements of the role. The Alien series is an exception and an example of this. The first two movies essentially show her as a feminine, but resourceful woman. The fourth? Yep, she's a man. I don't acknowledge the existence of the third.

Anyway, if you haven't seen a movie with a female lead, you're not watching any movies. There are TONS of strong female characters in countless movies. Perhaps you're choosing the wrong ones. Try the Alien series, X-men, the Fantastic Four, The Incredibles... All "action movies," all with strong female leads.

On TV: Heroes, Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Smallville, 30 Rock, Stargate/Stargate Atlantis, Firefly, EVERY Star Trek series except the first one, Babylon 5... ... ... ...........
This list would get longer than I have energy to type; you get the picture.

All these are shows with STRONG female characters in leading roles. It may be that men say [amongst other things] that they're hot, but heck, so what. If we weren't attracted to women, it'd be the freakin end of the species.

everybody - CHICK FIGHT!!!
because i enjoy being a male pig

>> 5. Prairie Dog, generally accepted as MALE. Thus: Drama KING

As we all know, the true threat to feminism is the sexist prairie dog actor's union.

>> ^kulpims:
everybody - CHICK FIGHT!!!
because i enjoy being a male pig


Maybe so, but I will not take back what I said, and I also will not apologize. That was absolutely uncalled for. She specifically asked not to be quoted, IN CAPITAL LETTERS, and then was quoted in full. The response was directly underneath her capital-letter request. I believe thepinky deserves an apology just as public as her request not to be quoted. - If not for her, then for all the other females here that have been victims of sexual abuse and may not want to be quoted saying such.

^i'm not taking sides here, just enjoying the show

>> ^LittleRed:
>> ^dag:
I like women and I don't want VideoSift to be a lopsided gender mutant sausage fest.
Any ideas on how to accomplish this?

Honestly, I've got nothing. It already is a sausage fest. I am more than willing to give you a list of problems I have with the site, though.
1) The way of judging whether or not a video stays is if you, a MAN, get an erection after watching. When was the last time a woman's perspective was taken into consideration? Never. Chances are women either feel objectified or get irritated for whatever reason watching a video like the one that prompted this post. I know I did. But because someone with a vagina posted it and the rest of the boys like it, it won't be removed. The thumbnail blares her breasts across the front page (or did for several hours yesterday), forcing me to not visit the front page at all either at work or at home, because I don't want my boss or my parents walking over and seeing that, and yet no one has felt the need to change it. If I could, I would.


Ok, i have to chime in here, as i'm part of the VS story of "Dag wood test". VS has many stories, and i played only i minor role in this one as it's a community. But anyway...

The story starts here:

>> ^dag:
Definitely not porn - it passes the wood test with me. No wood is all good.
But seriously, is he trying to say that they grew their pubic hair to those lengths? Some looked to be a bout 4 feet. Surely they were extensions?


I was amused by the idea, and comment. Dag hapens to be male, and is also a rather significant admin of the site. It being his (and luckys etc). .'. if a discusion is being had about somethings acceptability, an admin stepping in judge like to both give guidance and acknowledge a need for a descision is not unreasonable. Funadmentaly, the buck does stop somewhere and as MINK ocasionaly once pointed out, this isnt a democracy.

I found the comment amusing. When a it later, another vid was posted, i quized Dag as to it's passing his wood test (which i belive it did) in a toung in cheek fashion. The phrase stuck, grew a bit further, and has been refered to a few times in a few discussions. Like the kungfu porn one, that raged, and it got discarded in the end. That was an interesting discusion.

As for "When was the last time a woman's perspective was taken into consideration? Never." seriously, that "never" is utter rubish. Many females have given their views and been lsitened too. Not just persephones, but many, and persephones always stood as an indivual, as she and dag did not always agree (i belive their responses to the kung fu vid may have varied, but i dont recall specifics).

Anyway, that Never is reactionary, and has no basis in fact. a little effort would show that. Men dont always agree with other men, just as women dont always agree with other women. we are all people, individuals, and are views are as like and unlike as leaves on the wind. The burlesque thread had strong female comments on both sides of the issiue.

If you truly belive that "never" coment, and think im talking crap, I'll hunt out that other thread.

This is "part" of a former discusion on this topic (which i refered to above)

I say part, as i belive that like in many cases, some threads get long on the vid itself, adn a simultaneouse sifttalk thread occurs too, and sometimes blog posts, all intercorrelated. so this vid thread alone is not the whole story.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Kung-Fu-Sex-uh-its-not-safe-for-work

edit, 1 of the sifttalk interrelated parts. i think there may have been atleast one other ST post too.

http://www.videosift.com/talk/Uh-hello-Im-the-person-who-posted-Kung-Fu-Porn

And apologise for this going slightly off topic.

Lopsided Gender Mutant Sausage Fest Incorporated...Yeah!!!

An apology? If someone posts something on the internet its here for life. You ever searched your Videosift name in google!? ITS ALL THERE FOR-EV-ER.

intercorrelated ...HAH!!! Makin' shit up as we go along, eh???....YAH!

Only some of the googled Thylan is me. i cant claim most of it

My girlfriend is in a male dominated profession; some of her female friends take 'playing the game' in their shared profession as a challenge with a payoff that is worth having to act a certain way or dress a certain way (more conservatively around older male bosses, for instance). My girlfriend still hates it... hiding her multiple earrings with her hair... not much fun.

More than a few studies have found that people trend towards helping and promoting others most like them, who most likely share their values, concerns, methods, etc..


Wow, Shrek 2 is way up there...

You completely missed the point, and I don't have the energy to explain it other than by saying that I was not suggesting that the videos were upvoted because the people were male. I'm just pointing out the general underrepresentation of women in all forms of media. And when a women DOES happen to be popular it is often has a lot to do with her being pretty. And that's okay, really. Men like to look at pretty women. That's natural. I like to look at pretty men, too.

But did you read my comments of what a nice job sifters did of focusing on the factors that were deep and meaningful rather than shallow. Really. It was nicely done. I like VideoSift men a lot more than most.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
Ugh. I'm going to make this point as simple and clear as I can:
Woman CAN NOT be objectified without becoming objects. Pr0n "actresses" are objects of desire. Yes. That is THEIR choosing.
And really? Complaining about the top videos because they're all male? Sift more awesome clips with women. It's not that hard. I can run through your list and tell you which ones would have just as many votes if they were of a female:
1. A very talented MAN playing the ukelele.Doesn't count - those votes were all cronies. I've ben tempted to just discard it.
2. Two talented BOYS' well-made lightsaber video. Yup. If it were girls, it would have had the same. Thing is, you don't see many uber-geek girls, do you?
3. Autistic BOY being awesome at a b-ball game It's not the fact he has wedding tackle that made this video great, it's that he triumphed through his autism
4. Talented MALE robot dancer Again, it got the votes because it was really cool to see, not because he's got a banana and kiwis.
5. Prairie Dog, generally accepted as MALE. Thus: Drama KING I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't check for a prairie pecker before I clicked upvote.
6. Very clever rant about Pachebel. Again, a talented and clever MAN. What's that first adjective? And then the second? Those would be the reasons for the votes, not his twig and berries.
7. FINALLY, an intelligent WOMAN with integrity. What can I say? I like getting my bad news from someone that's easy on the eyes..
8. Awesome commercial. The Wind is a tall MAN doing funny things. Love this sift. I got nothin'
9. Drug spiders. MALE spiders? (Mr. Crack Spider, etc.), Male narrator. If they had made the crack spider a crack spideretts, I'm sure feminists would be pissed about that instead. Gender of the narrator does not make a difference. The script was the humor.
10. Quantum Physics narrated and explained by a MALE scientist.Maybe you want to get a degree in quantum physics and deliver that same speech? NO ONE watched that video and said "oh, I LOVE that Captain Q guy!" - No, they loved the explanation.
11. Clever prank, talented FEMALES, MALE narrator. (Yay!) All old/overweight women are the ones being tricked, all beautiful and young females are the tricksters. Oh come on. Are you really suggesting that they only let fat old women into that washroom? And are you forgetting about the guy? "No! You can't go in there! You're too hot to be pranked!" I think not.
12. Jon Stewart (MAN) being funny and clever and awesome. Again, the three adjectives?
13. A beautiful GIRL with a great bod doing something pretty cool. I would bet that at least 85% of the votes were received because of the comical novelty of the act.
14. Dolphins blowing bubbles
15. Cool music video. MALE vocals, MALE hands. Again, are you telling me that people only voted after they looked and made sure they could see hair on the arms? I sincerely doubt it.
The lesson here is that you could see shit anywhere you look for it. That doesn't mean it's true.

Alrighty. A lot of you made some OUTSTANDING comments that pretty much made me want to kiss you, and not necessarily because you agreed with me, but because they were just so darn beautiful and well thought out and you understood what I was trying to say even if you didn't agree. I really want to reply to all of this, but it is finals week and I have already wasted WAY too much time on here this week. So I'm going to discipline myself and I'll tackle your comments, some of which are deliciously wiggity-wack, as soon as finals are over.

Last night I hated the world. Today I'm feeling pretty optimistic because of some of your comments. Thanks for that. I was getting pretty pissed. You reminded me of how intelligent and well-informed some of you are.

Glad to help, 40 oz of hot green T per day, and plenty of sleep....and subbliminal crammings for those marks, no monkey business!!.....cheers

The Sift community is generally pretty good, but when it comes to issues of feminism and homosexuality it can be pretty appalling. No different to anywhere else though. I just try to ignore it or I'll wind up rage-quitting like gluonium. Honestly I'm fucking sick of everything being labeled gay, and how everything gay is a joke - but there's nothing I can do. I'd love to reply to some of the nonsense here but I can already see how pointless it would be. It's just disappointing that even a community I like as much as this one still has such a long way to go.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

^ I like to think that we're at least gay friendly (if not bi-curious to judge by many comments)

But I agree that using gayness as a pejorative name-calling joke is lame and officially frowned on - see?

I would be very curious to know if Thepinky's anti-discriminatory feelings extend toward protecting gay people from inflammatory or derisive comments on the Sift. What say ye?

so which sifter's developing pornsift?

>> ^thepinky:
You completely missed the point, and I don't have the energy to explain it other than by saying that I was not suggesting that the videos were upvoted because the people were male. I'm just pointing out the general underrepresentation of women in all forms of media. And when a women DOES happen to be popular it is often has a lot to do with her being pretty. And that's okay, really. Men like to look at pretty women. That's natural. I like to look at pretty men, too.
But did you read my comments of what a nice job sifters did of focusing on the factors that were deep and meaningful rather than shallow. Really. It was nicely done. I like VideoSift men a lot more than most.


I've been meaning to post a follow-up for my original comment. I understand that you're saying there is an under representation of women in the content of the sift.

I think that it could quite possibly be that there aren't as many outgoing women that want to have a video of them on the internet for millions to see.

Damn..... Pornsift. Why dinna I think a that!!

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I'd be interested to know who registered PornSift too. It's a private registration. I bet it's a Sifter.

>> ^berticus:
The Sift community is generally pretty good, but when it comes to issues of feminism and homosexuality it can be pretty appalling. No different to anywhere else though. I just try to ignore it or I'll wind up rage-quitting like gluonium. Honestly I'm fucking sick of everything being labeled gay, and how everything gay is a joke - but there's nothing I can do. I'd love to reply to some of the nonsense here but I can already see how pointless it would be. It's just disappointing that even a community I like as much as this one still has such a long way to go.


Here here, I quite agree. But really in terms of offending people in some way shape or form, no-one is safe. I would bet that every person here has had a raw nerve hit at some comment that has been made or video that has been shown. What if you're ugly, fat, anorexic/bulimic, not very intelligent, disabled, mentally ill, the list goes on. It's a shame that the word gay has evolved into a term for something that's crap or whatnot, but that's the way it goes. I can't say I don't use it myself, and my gay friends also use the term, as outrageous as that may seem, it really just has evolved that far. I can see how it would seem discriminatory, but the term was also slang once upon a time and slang terms will forever more evolve into something new.

<edit> 69 LOL

<edit2> anyone ever play the impossible quiz?

Had to come and make another comment.....it was stuck at 69....

>> ^dag:
...I would be very curious to know if Thepinky's anti-discriminatory feelings extend toward protecting gay people from inflammatory or derisive comments on the Sift. What say ye?


Yes, I'm very curious what your response to this is, Thepinky.

Hardly difficult to work out what she's going to reply to that is it?

Dag is gay

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

^ If that helps you reach climax with your GF - so be it.

uhhh, with that last comment, it's a dead certainty.....dags' flame-broiled.

i have a playlist for just this reason.

oh, and apparently one of them didn't sift yet.
this one's for you, pinky.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes! I am absolutely against inflammatory and derisive comments about gays on the sift. YES. And the same is true for any other group.

Just a thought: I know I've been focusing most of my comments on straight men and I've felt pretty bad about excluding gay and bi men from my discussions about porn-that-appeals-to-men because I haven't said anything about gay porn. I don't mean to do that but I only do it because straight men watching porn is more personally offensive to me (probably shouldn't be, but it is), although I do dislike all porn.

I've never encountered a gay man who objectified women in any way, but I have known one or two who objectified other men.

I don't mean the following as a stereotype, it's just that I've only been close friends with about 5 gay men and this is just an observation that happens to be true of them. Every single gay friend that I have ever had has made me feel like a million bucks for being a woman. It is a great feeling to have a member of the opposite sex treat you like that, and a smaller percentage of straight men make me feel as comfortable and respected as they do. I can't explain this phenomenon. I love gay men. I swear, I was half in love with a gay friend of mine for a while because he made me feel intellient, powerful, beautiful, and feminine. Though I HAVE met and/or dated straight men who do that for me, too.

Are there any other women who have experienced this, or is it just me? I can't really explain it, but it's wonderful.

^dag:
^ I like to think that we're at least gay friendly (if not bi-curious to judge by many comments)
But I agree that using gayness as a pejorative name-calling joke is lame and officially frowned on - see?
I would be very curious to know if Thepinky's anti-discriminatory feelings extend toward protecting gay people from inflammatory or derisive comments on the Sift. What say ye?

Ohhh Ohhh, http://www.videosift.com/video/Meiko-Kaji
put that one in the ass-kicking playlist, and teach thepinky what for and some goddamn manners!!!!!

It's funny that you would misspell "intelligent"

But a funny thing happened today - I took my weekly bike ride and went to the beach for a bit.

As I looked around, I saw (obviously) many women in bikinis. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad about bikinis, but it got me thinking about the whole "objectification" thing. If women, as a whole, don't want to be objectified, why wear such a reveling swim suit when there are plenty of good looking alternatives? [edit] What I'm saying it that it opens them up to it.

And for that matter, why put make up on?

And I'm curious as to why you guys would find it hard to predict what I thought about derisive comments about gays. I would have thought it was obvious. That was optimistic of me, I guess.

good point, why do women go through so much trouble to look attractive? society teaches us, i suppose, though I feel good when I look good...so why the hell not?
women often play sexism for all its worth. i have worked with countless women dressed in short skirts with cleavage spilling out, falling all over men just to get ahead and I always chuckle when they can't hack it. these women enrage me far more than any man whose human urges incline him to comment on a hot bod. on the other side of the spectrum of women are those who are always whining about feminism...rise above, ladies, rise above. though it might take a while for things to catch up (ie. the media), for the most part whatever a woman wants she can get.

I think some of my past and present friends are gay. I'm not sure of that because I don't give a shit either way. They are my friends.


ps. ok, a couple were damn obvious because the ended up getting married, but I digress...

Congratulations pinky, you've opened up some great discussion here and it's heartening to read some of the considered and thoughtful replies.
Feminism is definitely a worthwhile forum for debate, as is any movement which moves humanity onto greater awareness of our states of being.

I'm looking forward to the emergence of the masculine movement, when men reclaim their right to self-expression, without fear of being labeled less-than-manly. I look forward to seeing more men hugging and crying together in public and all the other configurations of men embracing their yin-ness.

I also look forward to the day that both heterosexual and LGBT labels have disappeared from our language. I look forward to the day that men and women are who they are, in whatever form that takes, without the need for society to have them pidgeon-holed into some category.

Yes Laura et al, we can apply filters and choose not to see the shit. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor that some of us are not deeply affected by it, whether we have those filters in place or not. By the deeply affecting shit, I am not referring to poorly chosen jokes or worded comments which appear on sites like this. I'm talking about serious sexism that can make a person without status or privelege less than human in the eyes of others.

I like your measure of appropriate language, kronos. If it's not something you can say out loud at work, it's probably best left unsaid, wherever you are. I noticed with interest kronos, too, that in your recent post about bad jokes, when you asked that racist jokes be left out, people followed your request. I wonder if you thought it would sound too draconian to include sexist jokes in your list of ones to avoid? I kinda wish you had, because it seemed that some members took that omission as a green light to try and out-do each other with the worst sexist jokes they could manage. I refer to videosiftbannedme's comparison of older women,to dog turd.

Well done to those who have contributed to this discussion with positivity and insight. If people of all races, gender and sexual orientation feel that they have a voice here, then it's a pretty good indicator of an amazing place.

I assure you that my failure to specifically mention that sexist jokes should also be excluded was an accident, persephone. I never wanted to see any sexist jokes either, and I assumed by my list of prohibitions that people would "catch my drift." Guess I was wrong.

I just noticed your title was sexist... "guys i quoted you!"

Ohhhhhh....Boom, thePinky!! Semantics over antics, farhad is correct, esp. in the context-you cancel out the substance, and render your arguments weak from the git go with that title.....

"I noticed with interest kronos, too, that in your recent post about bad jokes, when you asked that racist jokes be left out, people followed your request. I wonder if you thought it would sound too draconian to include sexist jokes in your list of ones to avoid? I kinda wish you had, because it seemed that some members took that omission as a green light to try and out-do each other with the worst sexist jokes they could manage."

Said it before, and don't care who understands it, or how they process it:
Sexism, is to true, actual, Racism, as fish is to bi-Sikkle.

Apples and oranges, they are not, no matter what fantasy world you would like to create, with your particular, Idyllic, paradigm-

And kronos was right to ask for it to be excluded, but I doubt the entreaty was needed....but gays need more atttteeeeeention for their, "plight" than (insert ethnic orientation here) do folks who have a better grip.......

Sorry folks, I ain't a homophobe either, whatever the fuck that convenient label means.....

Nice pulpit-shot persephone.....

I am blonde, couldn't we have excluded blonde jokes?

Nope.

Sexual Dimorphism. The end of a long evolutionary trail leading to big, strong, hairy men that like to wear camo, spray urine of their boots, and climb up into tree stands at 4 AM to ambush "doe-eyed" prey. While waiting, they get thirsty, and having only brought beer, proceed to drink until, overwhelmed by gravity, they return to earth at a velocity predicted by Sir Isaac Newton so many years ago. I see them at regular intervals in the ER, awaiting surgery for broken arms, legs, and backs. Somewhere a deer is laughing.

The evolutionary trail has not led women to this type of behavior in near the same numbers. Cultural? Genetic? Cultural? Genetic?

A mixture of course. Most everything we do is a genetic martini with a cultural olive in it. I raise a toast to my masculinity while freely admitting my frailty and dependence on an extraordinary woman. "Sweetie, where are my car keys and have you seen my wallet by chance?"

There's no universal definition of either feminism or feminist stances, which is why there's no way to discuss it and reach any universal agreement. There's simply no way to win when taking on "feminists", because anything and everything you say WILL be wrong. If you think women should be able to wear burkas you're oppressing them, but if you are for them wearing whatever they like you're objectifying them. It's all depending on what feminist you ask and where you're asking the question, and always the discussion is predetermined by the mindset that all womanhood is being oppressed and that manhood as a whole is oppressing them.

There are still areas where men and women are unequal, but you really have to realize that driving a wedge inbetween the people who hold those beliefs and trapping them in an argument where all answers are wrong won't further any thoughts on equality.
"Equal but different" is how my mother brought me up to look on men and women. There are people who don't see it that way; some who see it as men being superior to women, and relatively recently that women are superior to men, that's where you need to focus your attention if you ask me.

Feminism isn't about reprimanding people for complimenting a woman in a clumsy manner, about verbally attacking someone for making a joke or try to create some moral highground by drawing farfetched conclusions based on scewed movie statistics. Chastising the people who hold the equality beliefs will not further any feminist cause, because there's no corralation between enjoying Dita von Teese's burlesque show and objectifying women and viewing them as inferior to men.
Change comes from engaging the minds and views of persons who haven't been brought up into thinking humans are equal no matter their gender.

There was a political party who formed in Sweden called FI (feministic initiative) which fell apart in a matter of months. It did so because it couldn't agree on a political agenda, what policies to push and what parties to cooperate with, due to everyone having different ideas on what feministic initiative meant. There was no common ground to build a platform on, because on every issue one member wanted to pursue, another held the opposing view on the same argument.
The initiative ended up polarizing people even more and doing more harm than good, simply by attacking persons who held the view that everyone's equal by turning everything they did into an affront to women's suffrage.

Feminism is absolute nonsense, so is masculinism.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

>> ^thepinky:
And I'm curious as to why you guys would find it hard to predict what I thought about derisive comments about gays. I would have thought it was obvious. That was optimistic of me, I guess.


To be completely honest - it's because we think you are conservative in your beliefs, so we were sniffing out hypocrisy - assuming that you would hold anti-gay beliefs. But you surprised me at least. Kudos to you.

In relation to female leads in movies, you need to consider that at a young age, boys tend to prefer male influences to female, while females tend to be more neutral. This is ironic, considering most of us are raised by our mothers or some other female caretaker (or a possible reason why). This is evident in entertainment most especially. For instances, J.K. Rowling used her initial instead of her name because boys don't like to read books by female authors (the initials disguised this). As another example, how many men do you know who went to watch "The Devil Wears Prada" without a woman in tow? Scary Movie 4 may be an exception because, while I didn't see it, the previews I did see did seem to suggest some sexual material (which counters the purpose, as I'm sure you agree).

This preference, weather socially developed or genetic, will definitely play a role in how well a product sells. The fact that movies, books, television, whatever tends to have more male protagonists than female is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE.

the answer to the question "why i am a (insert -ism here)":

normally the answer is "i like soapboxing more than thinking, so i joined a movement instead of processing information for myself"

in the case of feminism, the answer is normally "i love to soapbox, but i really don't have much self belief, so i have chosen an ism that hopefully half the population of the world will agree with, and i won't have to fight my own battles alone"

the idea that anyone can entertain the concept of "females" as a coherent group is so fucking amusing to me.

>> ^Farhad2000:
I just noticed your title was sexist... "guys i quoted you!"


Sorry, but how is it sexist? If I had been referring to both men and women it could have been seen as sexist, but I was only talking to the guys. Is that what you were talking about?

And I know that these things are an effect, not a cause. That's my point. I didn't really make myself clear, based on some of the comments that are going down.

calling yourself a feminist automatically makes your position "not clear"... i think you probably have the right ideas somewhere, but the "feminist" tag is about as descriptive as "liberal". This is why i don't ally myself with any isms... they merely lock down your ability to make your own point, because everyone assumes they know what your ism means. They argue with their own definition of your ism, instead of reading what you say.

>> ^K0MMIE:

1) The way of judging whether or not a video stays is if you, a MAN, get an erection after watching. When was the last time a woman's perspective was taken into consideration? Never. Chances are women either feel objectified or get irritated for whatever reason watching a video like the one that prompted this post. I know I did. But because someone with a vagina posted it and the rest of the boys like it, it won't be removed. The thumbnail blares her breasts across the front page (or did for several hours yesterday), forcing me to not visit the front page at all either at work or at home, because I don't want my boss or my parents walking over and seeing that, and yet no one has felt the need to change it. If I could, I would.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE: You feel the human body is a shameful, and sexual activity should be repressed. Sorry we men like talking about our feelings, even if those feelings are carnal.

I don't feel the naked body is "a shameful" at all. I make money off other people's sex lives. I've been a sex educator since my freshman year of high school, and I have been a Passion Parties consultant since I was 18 - I help women in every aspect of their lives, from a college girl wondering why her boyfriend is incapable of ejaculation unless he's masturbating, to the 74-year-old woman wanting something to help her with Kegel exercises.

Though I certainly don't get where you came up with "You feel the human body is a shameful" from "The thumbnail blares her breasts across the front page and I don't want [anyone] walking over and seeing that."


2) Go take a look at some of the comments thepinky listed earlier, or any comments on a video where the woman is hot, or a stripper, or that stupid Wii Fit video... any of them. That is another reason I've grown to dislike the Sift. I joined for the discussion, not for the videos. I don't have a working TV in my house. I have never gone to see a movie in theaters that I have paid for, and the only DVDs I own were gifts. Do I give a shit about the videos? As a general rule, no. If I see something that I feel objectifies women, yes. But the discussion - is there anything to discuss with a bunch of pigs? No. Form intelligent discussion, please.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE: Anything to discuss with a bunch of pigs? I'm a pig now? At least we get out of the house a bit. I guess I have nothing in common with a crazy cat lady who has a bad case of cabin fever.


Oh, please. Anyone can tell from looking at the discussion on any video that the site is dominated by men. On a documentary I was honestly excited to see on here [and hoped would prompt some discussion, at least among the ladies], the first comment? "oOOh, Honkers!!!" And a few down: "T*ts or GTFO." And comments like yours earlier - "Shut up and show me your boobies." If the aim of the admins is to make the site more gender-friendly, I honestly don't believe it'll happen. "Boys will be boys," and no one's going to stop them. After a while, pretending to ignore all the shit gets old.


3) Sausage fests promote and encourage nasty man behavior - something that would never be acceptable at home. For all the men who watched and voted for that video, how do you think your girlfriend would feel if she came home and saw you watching some other woman's breasts bouncing around your screen? I'll tell you. Pissed. Irritated. Livid. Betrayed. Hurt. Just because it doesn't give you a raging erection doesn't mean it's not porn, or that it is in the least bit acceptable.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE: See, again you're assuming our better half's are sexually repressed and terrified of their own naked body. Mine's not. None of my friends are either. My gf saw the thumbnail, watched the video, and enjoyed it. Don't assume everyone has your values, and we should be judged by them as well. This is the internet, and until some politician decides otherwise, you're gonna get ALL our opinions, not just the ones that you think are worth hearing.

Fine. I'm not asking for opinions to be filtered. I'm just trying to share my own and getting shot down by someone who apparently doesn't want to hear mine, but will tear it apart and give me his.

I'm also not assuming anything about your girlfriend's values. I used the phrase "came home" because since most of the guys on here are at least well into their twenties and many of them talk about families, I assumed most of you had found someone to settle down with, or were at least living with a girlfriend. If that's not the case, you can completely ignore that last point. When you're living on your own, do what you want. But when you make the sacrifice and move in with someone, you're a fool if you believe your wife/girlfriend is okay with coming home to find you watching some woman strip, regardless of how poorly it was executed. That's what I was trying to convey.



I wouldn't complain if everything with the NSFW tag that wasn't tagged that way because of language was taken off the Sift. Those stupid videos have caused enough problems in my personal life.
K0MMIE's RESPONSE:The fact that a video on a fucking web site has caused you personal life problems, says it all. Turn of the glow box with the klik-klak keys, and do something else.


Maybe I shouldn't have worded it that way. But boys will be boys, as all of you have clearly shown at one time or another on this site. And as I said before, sausage fests promote and encourage nasty man behavior. There are things I've seen said on here that I never would've expected from people I know.

Oh my, if ever there was a wall of text it's this thread...

@feminists and the rest
I think this is a bit of a storm in a glass of water. Videos are ranked by popularity; popularity is not inherently sexist. We vote something up because we like it and down because we don't like it. Not because there are "banana and kiwis" in the picture or not. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that a video of banana and kiwis wouldn't go that far.)

The complaints about the top sifts are misguided, I think. They are there because they are good, not because of cock'n'balls. If women did similar acts they would get as many votes, no doubt.

As for Hollywood movies, well, we can't really do much about that. Hollywood is a business and they've got a working formula. Female leads tank at the box office. Sad, but true.

When I make fun of women (and I do, but I make fun of everyone) it's always because I know it's not really true. I can say "What are you doing out of the kitchen?" or ask in a voting booth "Are you allowed in here?", but dudettes: it's not malicious. I'm not trying to spew venom or anything like that. You're welcome to insult me once in a while too ("Gwiz, you manly man, why aren't you out saving the world with your mighty penis and muscles..." things of that nature ) I'm sorry if you're offended by that, but that's that.

I suppose like the "lynchings"-argument that kronos has made earlier ("it should never be uttered, even in jest"), you would have me (us) never use objectification and verbal use of gender roles even in jest? Pff, I honestly don't care. I don't want to kick someone that's down or anything, but if you cannot ever laugh at a "women can't drive" joke or the like, that's your loss.

If women want out of the gender roles, it's their responsibility to stay out of them. Go in the army like we have to, pay for your own damn drinks and cinematickets, stop scheming behind our backs.

@LittleRed
How should the admins make the site more gender friendly? If we start to police comments and moderate any derogatory language, then the site is effectively a dictatorship == is dead. WE, the sifters, have the power to make it more gender friendly, by voting on comments and commenting on other comments. I'm also here mostly for the discussions - the videos are secondary for me - and I think that we do have intelligent discussions. It really doesn't help when you call all of us a "bunch of pigs", because that just exposes you as a, well, not something good.

The site is what it is, we're not going to change ourselves, and if you want change then you'll have to do something about it. I hate to burst your bubble, but from my perspective videosift has a more accepting and tolerant community than I've seen anywhere else on the intarwebs. Sucks to be a feminist on the Internet.

I'm home alone and have nothing better to do than respond to this thread, because a lot of the comments in here still bother me. So... here goes nothing.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
>> The video in question (Dita) is an act of grace a beauty, not a vivid depiction of sex. The act is designed to be something that one merely watches, from which they are detached and it is forever that way. It is a solo act meant to please for the sake of a good show.


WRONG! There is absolutely nothing graceful or beautiful about that (or her, really). See my comment on the performance in a minute.


Dirty books, on the other hand, are of a couple's acts in the bedroom, written to suck the reader into the characters words and actions, even letting them place themselves into the character's shoes. The book is more about being a part of the act, making the reader imagine (through ample use of details and adjectives) every part of sex. It's porn you read, and not watch, though I will say it is not disgusting or objectifying as real porn.


You know why women love romance novels? Because we can imagine it's our significant other doing everything the protagonist in the novel is. Generally it's a scene that plays out in our minds with the characters, not us (women). But even if we were picturing ourselves in that mental scene, it would be with our significant other. Because really, the sex scenes in romance novels are a lot more exciting than ones in real life. If we got enough romance, we wouldn't need to read romance novels. There's nothing disgusting or objectifying about getting a little inspiration. It's erotica - not porn.


My question to you is this: How can you tell the internet in one comment that "Even I can appreciate burlesque" but in the next, tell the internet that it's not acceptable for men with significant others to watch it, if only for art of the performance?


Burlesque is an art, but that's not burlesque. That's a terrible, terrible striptease. You haven't seen any of the great old burlesque. It originated as a sort of comedy show. Gypsy Rose Lee (who, by the way, the Warner Brothers movie "Gypsy" is about. I guarantee you Dita is not burlesque if Warner Bros. did a burlesque movie) and Sally Rand (not quite as good, I don't think, but still notable, and the woman who originated the fan dance). Do you see any comedy in Dita's "work?" I didn't think so. It used to be a complete one-act comedy show, not a two-minute, poorly-done dance where you end up in nothing but nipple pasties and a g-string. Look up some of the Bettie Page stuff on here.

P.S. "Even I can appreciate burlesque" means I like some, but not this [Dita]. For someone who admits they've only seen two clips of burlesque, how dare you confront me on something like that? Look up the history of burlesque. Maybe watch someone other than Dita von Teese. It's like someone saying they don't like a particular artist, or a particular period in art history. It doesn't mean I dislike every painting ever made, or that no one should look at art anymore because I decided I don't like it. Burlesque has never been about the ability to strip down from a dress to pasties and a g-string in less than 20 seconds. There's nothing burlesque about her act - it's a striptease, pure and simple.


I hold that burlesque is only that; an art. I personally don't get any arousal from it, not does it raise any carnal desires within myself. Hell, I've only seen two instances of it, both here on the sift. The female body, with all it's curves, is designed to flow like water in almost all directions. Combined with graceful movements and a dynamic act, it is a thing of grace and beauty.


Oh please. You just admitted yourself you've only ever seen two instances of burlesque. How can you possibly go on about how graceful it is, and how it's such a glorious artform, when you've seen two "dances," both by the same woman?

>> ^MarineGunrock:
As I looked around, I saw (obviously) many women in bikinis. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad about bikinis, but it got me thinking about the whole "objectification" thing. If women, as a whole, don't want to be objectified, why wear such a reveling swim suit when there are plenty of good looking alternatives? [edit] What I'm saying it that it opens them up to it.
And for that matter, why put make up on?


1) You've heard it before, but it obviously bears repeating - Women don't dress up for men. They dress up for other women. I shouldn't have to think every morning when I get dressed, "If I see someone with a penis today, will he say something lewd if I'm wearing this? Might someone possibly get excited?" I dress for other women. Would they think I'm attractive? Intimidating? Smart? Chic? If I wanted to dress to attract attention from men, I'd walk around in a bikini top and shorts. But I don't.

2) Just because women wear revealing clothing doesn't mean they're inviting you to look. I lost 20 pounds and bought myself a bikini, because I felt good about my body again. I regained so much self-confidence just by owning it, and that I was no longer embarrassed or felt fat walking around in one. That doesn't mean I wear it just to attract attention, or in the hopes that guys compliment me. I wouldn't take a compliment seriously if I was wearing a bikini anyway - I know my boobs are all you were looking at.

Maybe I wear makeup because I want to feel pretty, or I got a pimple this morning, or I have a sunburn and my skin tone is uneven. Why should it matter?

@gwiz

I'm not saying the admins should police the site, or anything like it. I'm just saying it truly feels like a hostile environment at times, because of comments members [males] make. The examples I cited earlier, about the Big Breasts BBC documentary, "OooOh, Honkers" and "Tits or GTFO" really don't make me feel welcome. I think as a community, everyone should work toward a more friendly environment. It's true that gays and feminists are treated as lesser citizens, even around here.

It's surprising to me that so many guys here have conned their girlfriend / significant other into making an account, and are still less than acceptable. Another side of my boyfriend I never would have wanted to see comes out on here, and I don't think that would be the case if the general tone of the community was inclusive. I realize that's a personal problem, but there are a plethora of comments and videos that really just make me mad. Like this one. How in the world did it make top 15? It's some nasty 14-year-old girl doing shit that really isn't remarkable, except maybe the smiley face with her tongue. And yet it made the top videos, wrought with comments about masturbation, oral sex, and if she was "of age."

I just wish it were different, I suppose.

The world is what it is, even when we don't like it. :-/

I may have a vagina, but that doesn't prevent me from loving tits. Mmm, tits.

I guess that leaves the good ol' boys and lil ol' me.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

^ Uhhm what? You realize that you may be causing spontaneous nerdgasms across the Sift?

Haha. What dag said gets a downvote. I call shenanigans.

If I really wanted to start a wave of nerdgasms, I'd also mention that I have a level 80, now. Yes. I have boobs and I play World of Warcraft and that's why I, ladies, am a feminist.