Sigh, I unfortunately fall on the side of "Really, they want 15/hour?"

It's a brain dead job, specifically designed for brain-dead teenagers to come in and work their 5 hours a day, 3 times a week. Yes, a lot of people unfortunately work at fast food joints, but 15 bucks an hour? I used to work in a factory that recycles car parts and plastics, hard labour, and I only made 3 dollars more than some kid would be making flipping burgers. There's warehouses that offer 13.75/hour, again, hard physical labour.

I personally don't think a job that requires you to put fries in a basket and hit a single button that will then drop that basket for you, and raise it up for you once the fries are cooked, OR microwave / heat up a burger patty and assemble a burger truly requires enough time or effort to warrant giving them 15/hour.

Yes, again, I understand some people have fallen upon hard times and need enough money to survive, I feel for them, I've been in that situation. But the way to fix that isn't just to demand more money for what you're getting, it's to enrich yourself to the point where you can do something that DOES warrant a decent wage.

Honestly, the argument that "Oh, McDonalds has record profits, they should be able to pay their workers more" to me, straight out means i'm paying too much money for a damn big mac.

The minimum wage in Ontario is 10.25/hour (9-something for students)
and that, to me, seems like a perfectly reasonable amount.

The big question is: in each community where you are paid this minimum wage amount, can you reasonably subsist on that much?

Some places, yes, I'm sure you can, and people on either side of the argument can cherry-pick abuses. However - and as a non-american this is a big deal - I believe that systems should be judged on how they fail rather than how they succeed.

It's not easy to make a nation-wide call, but it's better to protect those who can't protect themselvs.

Teens however only make up 30% of fast food workers.

More info
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/08/fast-food_workers_more_often_a.html

Shepppard come on, surely you understand what negotiating is. They're asking for $15 not expecting it, also it's not like Jon or anyone else mainstream is actually reporting this accurately.

ahh the slippery slope argument.

..gay marriage will lead to bestiality!

..marijuana is a gateway drug!!

..Anything Obama-related is the first step to socialism!

I can tell you this. No one enjoys asking their employer for a raise. I think if it were up to most people, they would never ask, but that's dependent on employers providing their workers with a living wage.

This is what happens when employers refuse to raise wages to match inflation. Even I think 15 bucks seems steep, but that's what economists say will give people shelter, food and healthcare. It's frustrating that the cost of living varies wildly in the US. I live in Nebraska where the cost of living is low so I always get sticker shock when I see prices nearby in Colorado, and even then, I know it's still cheap compared to the coasts. I wish we lived in a world where the cost of living was more even. But we don't

In a perfect world, I would say let the states figure out what's a good wage in their areas...and some do, But a lot ignore it, so it's on the fed to step in.

And it's absolutely a moral argument because it comes down to whether or not you believe even the lowest paid workers are deserving of decent food, shelter and healthcare. It's ironic because most of these corporate apologists probably consider themselves pro-life, yet they don't seem to have any problem withholding that which promotes a productive and healthy life.

It's kinda hard to pull yourself up by the bootstraps when you can't afford bootstraps...or if you're too busy dealing with health issues to improve your job options.

@Shepppard
ah...my young friend.
come over by the fire,your buddy enoch has some things to speak to you about.
are you comfy?
need a drink? beer? coffee?

then let us begin.

1.why do YOU care what another makes an hour?is it YOUR business?

but i understand the basic gist of your point:unskilled labor.

ok.thats a fair point.
but why is 15$ an hr too high?
what arbitrary scale are you comparing their hourly worth to?
walmart workers?

here is a facts that may give you some perspective:
a.if we take the minimum wage from 1978 and factor in inflation and worker productivity todays minimum should average 22$ an hour (yes...you read that right).
b.the workers in these unskilled jobs are in the high percentages in goverment subsidies.to the tune of 7 BILLION a year.so basically we ALL are subsidizing mcdonalds and walmart to pay their workers like shit.

so are you still against them getting a living wage? when you and i are subsidizing their income. the companies they work for get to pocket those profits,you and i get to help pay for their housing and food stamps.

walmart even helps ttheir employees sign up for food stamps! now isnt that adorable.

dont you think it a better idea that these companies pay their help at least enough where they dont need government susbizies? you know.like actually PAY them and not force us to?

2.if these corporations paid a minimum of 15$ an hr the projected hike in product prices will be......./drum roll.....
...........15 cents per item.........

3.how come it appears to be taboo to point to a CEO of a company who is making billions in bonuses while his/her workers are having to receive food stamps?
when did obscene gluttony and greed become something cool? even praiseworthy? while ridiculing those trying to survive and demanding a little bit of dignity as something to be chastised and cajoled for even having the impertinence to ask for a living wage.

the cognitive dissonance on display is on an epic scale.

who do YOU think you have more in common with?
the dude working at your local burger king?
or jamie dimon?

and dont even get me started on that condescending argument "get an education to get a better job".

i have been seeing many posts of late that reflect the very same flavor of yours @Shepppard and the one thing they all have in common is this judgemental value system that they just pulled out of their ass but in reality was given to them by the very people fucking them,and their children in the ass.

there will come a day when these people will realize they are slaves.
debt slaves.
wage slaves.
and while they were bickering the banksters and the corporate elite cleaned their clock.....
and they didnt notice until it was too late.

those elite fuckers.
they have a small club and you aint in it.
they dont like you.
they will never like you.
me?
im on your side man.

A person who makes a subsistence living, is a ghost. They make rent, food, and ~nothing else. They are useless to the economy.

A person who has excess funds is a consumer. They create demand, and drive the economy.
They are the customers that pay your salary.

It's important to have a populace with disposable income and disposable time.

-scheherazade

I believe people should be paid according to the bullshit they have to suffer from idiots who make the simple pleasures and obligations of life, a monumental, ass-burning chore.

So, I figure I'm worth about $200 U.S.D. per day, double-time on weekends.

think of it this way. we raise the minimum wage, now that the lower and middle classes have more purchasing power, there will be more demand and businesses will be able to use that demand as an excuse to raise prices more, offsetting by far any extra money they have to pay employees.

I'm fed up with this cycle we have. some douchebag raises prices because they feel entitled to more profit. because of the raised prices workers cannot afford what they could in the past and demand higher wages, eventually, with much contempt and whining, wages do eventually increase, which leads to that same douchebag feeling entitled to more profit and lather rinse repeat.

I want a stable system that doesn't go through this cycle of raising costs. It's the dog chasing it's tail.

Like I said earlier, no one likes demanding raises from their employer, so lets create a system that isn't based on greed, but instead on promoting a healthy and productive lifestyle so people don't have to ask for raises.

I want to live in a world where necessities are cheap and plentiful. you want to price gouge me on the price of an ipad to the point where I can't afford it? that's a luxury item so I don't give a shit.

I want to live in a world where it doesn't matter if I'm a ceo or a janitor, having a decent apt or home, healthcare and healthy food isn't an issue. The rest is extra. We would all be more productive if we didn't have to worry about the basics of a healthy life.

i completely lost it at "i personally do not want my spiritual life mixed up with my political life..."

You know, much of the developed world is like that... to a greater or lesser extent.

You can print more money and hand it out to influence purchases also, but it is going to lead to dramatic inflation.

I had my wife watch this video, because she makes around 18 dollars an hour working in a skilled profession for a college. Her first comment was, "If they raise food workers to 15 dollars an hour, I'm going back to work at Dairy Queen because it was much easier than what I do now."

But that is where the slippery slope comes in, because the corporation is going to make that money back somewhere and it isn't going to be just 15 cents more per item. Why, you ask? Because the minimum wage rise means that skilled workers, like my wife, are going to expect a commensurate raise in their salary or they will look for easier jobs. You don't just raise the minimum wage without ALL wages eventually rising. But that's a good thing, you say, just like printing money and handing it out for free would be good.

It might take a year or two, but consumer costs will rise from inflation to make the new minimum wage just as low in buying power as it is now. Then we can repeat the entire process all over again in a couple of years. Corporations are designed to make the absolute maximum profit they can, so forcing them to pay more to employees is going to make them charge more for goods and services. As I said earlier, it will eat up the exact purpose of the raise, customer purchasing power.

Now, let's say that I am wrong completely. The one thing I DO know, having went through this before in 1996 when the minimum wage went up, is that companies will begin outsourcing even more. If you force them to pay wages above what they want to pay or what the market will bear, they will open factories and call centers overseas. I worked for Dell at the time and in 3 years, half of their support was outsourced to India. It wasn't just them, multiple companies did it, and the evidence points to rising costs due to government interference in the free market system.

I feel for the people who make minimum wage; I made it as well from the time I was 16 until I was 22. It sucked and I had a lot of debt, but after that time I no longer worked minimum wage. If you continue to work a minimum wage job into your 30's and up, there is something wrong with you.

Since one of the largest factors for cost-of-living is housing/real-estate, why don't they make a Maximum Rent instead of a Minimum Wage ?

'the-rent-is-too-damn-high' candidate was definitely onto something...

(yes food and fuel prices have gone up too, but housing prices have gone way above cost of materials increase and it's not just supply & demand)

"Since one of the largest factors for cost-of-living is housing/real-estate, why don't they make a Maximum Rent instead of a Minimum Wage ?"

Jesus Christ. I like that.

This is where my thoughts immediately went -- maybe $15/hr sounds so high because we're so far behind the inflation curve -- but I wasn't sure, so I pulled up this list of historic minimum wages and this inflation calculator and started doing some conversions.

1950: $0.75 = $7.30 today
1960: $1.00 = $7.81 today
1970: $1.60 = $9.74 today
> 1978: $2.65 = $9.80 today -- @enoch: How are you getting $22?
1980: $3.10 = $9.28 today
1990: $3.80 = $6.92 today
2000: $5.15 = $7.03 today
2010: $7.25 - $7.71 today

@Yogi is probably right; These people are probably asking for $15 and hoping for $10 (and $10 seems reasonable based on historic rates above).

Cranking up minimum wage much higher than that might be treating the symptoms rather than the sickness. Entry level jobs not paying enough is not the root cause; the root cause is that people are trapped in entry level careers. By all means, bump minimum wage up to $10, maybe $12 an hour, but then start taking action so that, when inflation catches up to those rates, there's more job mobility.

@xxovercastxx
factor in worker productivity and you get 22$.
and the ratio with just inflation alone varies from 10 something to almost 15$ an hr.

of course i was reciting that all from memory,so i could be wrong but i dont think so.that number really stuck out.

ill go shuffling through my bookmarks and see if i can find the articles for you because it was more than one.

*controversy

Adding video to channels (Controversy) - requested by MrFisk.

'preciate it. I'm curious to understand that.

I didn't read all the responses, so forgive me if this was mentioned already, but if the federal min wage was raised to 15/hr. Wouldn't that really screw things up?

For instance:
15 becomes the new fed. min wage, everyone from 7.25 up to 15 would be 15, meaning those who made more than minimum wage would now be making the federal minimum wage assuming the employers don't adjust for the pay hike (most wouldn't).

So with that assumed, all pricing on services and products will also raise accordingly, putting everyone at the minimum wage level back where they started, correct? But in this situation, even *more* people would be affected by the inflated costs and we'd be in a far deeper hole than before.

I'm all for having corporations (specially the billion dollar industry that is the fast food services) pay their workers more, but I don't think a hike like this would actually help things overall, unless *everyone* in the country got a raise in pay, and the services/products stayed the same price (very very very unlikely).

Just my opinion here, but I think there are better ways to solve the issues with soaring profits while paying people nearly nothing for said profits.

Negate tax loop holes. If you're making a billion more each year, you shouldn't be showing a 0 dollar tax burden year after year. Incentivize expanding (lower taxes, etc), heavily tax companies who sit on their money or offshore nearly everything but still call themselves a US company. You should not get both the benefit of low cost offshoring, while the US has to maintain a military presence, infrastructure, and other safety/security institutions that allow you to operate your business and live in safety as you do.

Regulations on speculation that have made a lot of markets spiral out of control. I'm no economist, but when you see prices rise and fall based on rumors and possibilities...look at fuel prices especially. People shouldn't be making money on commodities when they have no hand in adding value to said commodity. If they aren't processing/shipping/extracting/packaging/ANYTHING but sitting on something waiting for a price spike, you need to take that avenue of profit out of the equation. There are places out there with enough buying power they can literally buy all supply, hold it for a few days to jack up the price and sell it off. Creating false shortages should get you a kick to the nuts.

Basically put profit back into production and manufacturing instead of offshoring and screwing with markets to get profit.

Leads to stagnation and often times inferior products as people race to the bottom to drive costs down to increase profits.

For stagnation, look at the broadband market. They have done jack and shit to improve it for a long time now for the majority of the the US, there is absolutely no reason for them to because monopolies and ability to drive costs down while continuing to jack up the rates and influence laws in their favor.

Inferior products, a good example of this would be the Craftsman line of products. Or hell something as simple as kitchen utensils...they look the same until you've had em for a bit and your forks and spoons are bending and not holding up in the dishwasher like they should getting kinda "off" looking.....probably made in China or some other Asian nation with inferior stainless steel. Then you got your US made ones, they might be more expensive but they still make them the same way they did your grandparents silverware...which your grandparents left to your parents and they still look better than the inferior china ones.



This is why I don't believe offshoring lowers consumer prices, because you might spend less on a single thing..but it likely won't last as long and you end up either buying a "good quality one" or repeatedly buying shitty ones. I do however believe offshoring lowers COMPANY costs, and increases their profits. Rarely does stuff actually end up cheaper once they offshore it, and if it does it usually comes with a swift decline in quality.


Lots of ...."off" ways of thinking about things that have become ingrained into the media and people's minds. And I think it's intentional. Minimum wage debate puts the focus on the "greedy" worker, and gives them another reason to move more jobs offshore "to maintain low prices for consumers" yet the company profits continue to go up. IE they pay less to make it, you pay the same or more to buy it. And people are too busy blaming joe schmoe for his minimum wages to notice they just keep doing this shit.

15 an hour is quite feasible. The only consequence it has is on the level of surplus value harvested by capitalists.

The working day is divided into two segments. The part that the person works to equate the cost of reproducing themselves. The other part is the portion not paid for by the capitalist: surplus labor, or, surplus value. This is the source of profit.

Raising the minimum wage to $15 increases variable capital (wages). The other part of capital is constant capital: machines, tech, etc.

The rise in variable capital will increase the necessary labor of the working day, taking away the portion that goes to surplus value.

The working class has fought and won a raise in wages throughout history, quite often. It is necessary politically when the wages (price for labor-power) does not equal the actual value of labor power (cost to reproduce oneself).

Capitalists can easily make do here. They will just devise new ways of getting more surplus value. The can raise the minimum wage no problem, they will just fire workers and buy more machines to replace the fired workers, and then make the workers that are left work really hard (condensation of labor).

And no, this wont make a big mac cost more money.

This fight is necessary, just and progressive for humanity. We shouldn't ask why workers at McDonalds should or shouldn't get $15 an hour. We should ask why we all can't have that much. Fuck, lets go farther. Down with the 1% and capitalism. Lets go for more then $15 an hour. Lets storm heaven itself!

Let's get a bit more realistic here, shall we?

I like John. He's smart. But he missed the point on government assistance. The guy meant that the wage will be increased through legislation and not merit. I'm sure he also didn't mean that taxpayers are directly on the hook, even though indirectly they will be.

It's easy to narrow this conversation down to Burger King, McDonald's, and the like because they are large corporate entities which pay some employees minimum wage.

But guess what? Tons of other places in the United States pay their employees minimum wage too. The difference is that they are most certainly not large corporate entities and therefore can't mitigate the impact of a rising wage through the diversity of their products or the markets in which they serve. They are Joey's Pizza and Bertha's Plumbing. There is no way in hell they'll be able to pay a federal minimum wage of 15$.

You're right. 15$ an hour won't put a dent on the cost of a Big Mac, but when your septic tank gets destroyed from choking down all those burgers, you'll be sure to get some sticker shock.

Let's be clear, $15/hr is gonna make a difference. If current minimum wage is $7.25 it's more than doubling the wage. That means doubling the salary costs for every business employing people for minimum wage. It seems the left is all excited about moving twice as much money from Walmart and McDonalds back to it's employees. The thing is, it doesn't just hurt corporate employers, it hurts ALL employers. In particular the mom and pop shops that open up to provide alternatives to Walmart and McDs. Raising the cost of entry to new business owners seriously hurts and undermines the little guy.

My point is the idea of striking a balance in minimum wage is very important, because shifting it too much in EITHER direction makes the 'wage-slave' problem worse. Either buy worse conditions for the lowest end of the working class, or by making it even more difficult to start out working for yourself.