scheherazade says... "What on earth are you talking about?" -newt The rules for property and income when one or both parties decide they no longer want to be in the relationship. "not having a marriage means you almost certainly will pay for them for 18+ years but won't have many rights to be in their lives" -newt Incorrect. If you are on birth certificate, you have the same rights and obligations. The only pitfalls are that : - Child support is calculated from the income of the parent with less custody (rather than from the true cost of raising a child). - Women almost always get custody if the choice is between two parents (like when they live far apart and child can only be at one or the other). "and may lose your rights to any assets if she grabs first" -newt Negative. Co-parenting does not conflate property. Shared assets when not married are divided either by percentage of purchase price contribution, or by percentage stated in a contract. "My brother paid well over a hundred thousand dollars for his divorce in Texas" -newt "My brother won." -newt Won by your own definition. Hence I congratulate. "You assume women take off time to raise the kids" -newt No assumptions. Although afaik they still do it more often. "You start from a false position that men work both harder and better, but you have no data to back that up. " -newt Top result from a zero effort google of "men working hours vs women working hours" https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041 "Um...so since you admit many women outearn men and the trend reinforces that" -newt I admit that women [as a group] under 35 out earn men under 35 because of preferential admittance (such as to higher education) and preferential hiring (such as to managerial positions). I did not say that women earn more in the same position for the same hours worked. Young men are simply getting shut out of opportunities, so their incomes are lower. As by design. It does however highlight how affirmative action is being poorly controlled. The target statistic is based on overall population at all ages. The adjustment is skewed to younger ages (school admission is typically for younger people). So the system is trying to balance out incomes of older men by trimming up incomes of younger women, with no accounting for the effects on younger men or consequences of older men retiring. The situation is doomed to overshoot with time. A natural result is the popularity of people like Jordan Peterson, with messages like : "Young men, nobody will help you, stop waiting for someone to help you, stop lamenting your situation, you gotta pull yourself up by your boot straps. Start by cleaning your room, then go make something of yourself". "Bullshit. You said you would immediately dismiss any woman who has... "Long dating history? Too much risk[etc]" -scheherazade " -newt Straw man argument. You know I stated that those marriageability criteria exist specifically due to risk of consequences of divorce. I never stated that I have personal issues with those attributes. I have dated women on that list. I didn't /marry/ them. My only criteria for a relationship that I am happy being in is : - We are mutually attracted - We like each other - We are nice to each other I don't care what your religion is, your politics, your family status, whatever. It's all just noise to me. " And again, prenuptial. Do you not know what they are?" -newt Prenups can be negated by these simple words : "I did not understand what I was signing" or "My lawyer was not present". Poof. Prenup thrown out. "their husbands are more likely to break their vows first" -newt A woman to cheat needs a willing man (easy) A man to cheat needs a willing woman (hard) Times have changed. Online dating made chatting someone up in person and make an impression uncommon, and even considered creepy/unusual. Now people are picked on their online profile based on looks/height/social-media-game. Dating apps and sites publish their statistics. Nowadays, around 20% of men match with around 80% of women. Most men aren't having sex. Most men can't find a match to cheat with if they wanted to. The tall cute photogenic guys are cleaning up. The 20% of men that match the bulk of women are going through women like a mill. They will smash whatever bored housewife crosses their path. A 2 second google result : https://usustatesman.com/economics-of-dating-2-the-brutal-reality-of-dating-apps/ "Women don't like men that believe wholeheartedly that all women are just lessers, leeches" -newt Agreed. Fortunately, I never say that about women. " you can't grasp that a codified, delineated, agreed to partnership is almost always better, more fulfilling, and has many benefits cohabitation lacks" -newt False equivalence. Cohabitation and Partnership are mutually independent. Meaning both can exist at the same time. -scheherazade newtboy said: What on earth are you talking about? Do you believe the government dictates your vows? What "rules"? You just cannot grasp the concept of no fault divorce or prenuptial, can you? I guess you never planned on kids or shared assets. If you do, not having a marriage means you almost certainly will pay for them for 18+ years but won't have many rights to be in their lives, and may lose your rights to any assets if she grabs first. Uncle Sam is in your relationship, married or not....without a marriage contract, he makes ALL the rules and you have no say. My brother paid well over a hundred thousand dollars for his divorce in Texas that in my state would have cost under $10K and you congratulate him? You are one strange person. Again, your perception, not based in fact since the 60's. You assume women take off time to raise the kids and take care of parents and assume fathers don't take paternity leave or have obligations outside work. How 50's. You start from a false position that men work both harder and better, but you have no data to back that up. It certainly hasn't been my experience, I've seen women in the workplace working harder and longer for less pay, sacrificing just like their male counterparts if not more, putting off having families until it's too late while men can have kids long after normal retirement age, putting themselves in dangerous situations where those with power over them have opportunities to abuse that power and abuse those women in ways that rarely happen to men. These aren't exceptions, they're the norm. Um...so since you admit many women outearn men and the trend reinforces that, meaning soon women in most catagories will out earn men and have more to lose, you admit you're wrong in your position now, right? Of course not, I expect you will still start from a point that hasn't been correct since the era and sexual revolution, early 70's at latest. No, many of the studies I've seen compared people in the same exact positions in the same industries, even same companies, and women consistently get paid less for the exact same job and hours, and women rarely work less today, and just as often out work their male counterparts knowing they are often token hires not valued by the bosses so have less job security. If I recall correctly, 80% of job losses due to Covid were women, and the men are getting rehired faster. I think you are thinking of some studies from the 80's that made those assumptions and accusations. Comparing apples to apples, women still get shortchanged and as often as not overworked. Bullshit. You said you would immediately dismiss any woman who has... "Long dating history? Too much risk Tends to have short relationships? Too much risk Likes attention? Too much risk Single mother (non-widow)? Too much risk Any mental issues (depression, bipolar, narcissist, anxiety, etc)? Too much risk Older (why you still single...)? Too much risk Likes to party? Too much risk Drinks? Too much risk" And again, prenuptial. Do you not know what they are? Specify what you expect and agree, and you walk with exactly what you agreed to, no government rules or split involved. Geez. You speak as if you had never heard of them. Most divorces may be initiated by the woman (if that's true, I expect it's just another assumption) because their husbands are more likely to break their vows first, but are not willing to pay to end the marriage, including penalties for breaking the marriage contract, and we're too dumb to get a prenuptial (or got one that spells out harsh penalties for cheating). Yes, I am assuming men cheat on their spouses more often than the reverse, because men are wired that way. You are not more likely than not to face a divorce, because it's unlikely any woman meeting your criteria would give you a second thought, and you need to get married to get divorced. I bet if you show your significant other this thread your 20 year relationship will be in big trouble, or at best enter a long dry dark spell. Women don't like men that believe wholeheartedly that all women are just lessers, leeches that take more than they deserve or even could give back and destroy you whenever they think it serves them. It's probably a good thing you aren't married. Laws and family court aren't as you describe. Maybe when you enter the 21st century you'll recognize that. The rules of your marriage can be whatever you agree to, including the specifics of the split if it ends. It's a sad thing you can't grasp that a codified, delineated, agreed to partnership is almost always better, more fulfilling, and has many benefits cohabitation lacks.....almost always unless one or both of you are total douchebags.