was about to cry sexism, but that guy has a point ;-/ - and come to think of it, i dont know any women id consider as funny, either personally or as comics.

Awesome. I'm fascinated with the general differences between the male and female genders.

Wow, I never knew old stumbly Hitch was an expert on evolution. I wonder if he's just as much an expert on evolution as he is on Iraq.

um, does anyone else find the whole argument incredibly silly and overly simplistic?

it's a stupid (and more than likely deliberately inflammatory) choice of words. "why women aren't funny" evokes a completely different reaction to "why women were not subjected to the same evolutionary selection pressure for humour as men." the former statement has sexism embedded in it. the latter, well... evolutionary psychology is interesting but riddled with problems. how do you begin to test that idea?

biological determinism is hopelessly naive. ignoring the powerful impact of environment is foolish. i haven't read hitchen's views on this topic, but he comes across as wilfully antagonistic (yet still 'playful', i guess).

he is generalizing, but it is generally true.

OMG I LOVE THIS GUY!!! What BALLS to say something so blunt yet so true!

Ok, so he provides absolutely no data to back up his argument.. and so he is an ass, but...

..I gotta say, this guy is pretty funny.

I wonder if he'd also claim that gay men can't be as funny as straight men? According to his logic, men are only funnier to attract a female mate. Would that also mean that maybe uglier guys have evolved to be funnier to compensate for their lack of good looks? and whats the logic behind jewish women being funny? he didnt really explain that. does he think jews are more dyke-ish? He's not that good looking or funny, I'd definitely never screw him. Now Dane Cook on he other hand...he is FUUUNUNNNYY!

Humor is a social construct with more variables than simply

humor(gayness,jewness,penis)=funny.

The equation is much more complicated. Frankly, his argument is poorly framed.

Original article by Christopher Hitchens

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2007/01/hitchens200701

Response by Alessandra Stanley

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/04/funnygirls200804

Rebuttal by Christopher Hitchens

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/04/hitchens200804

I can't find anywhere that mentions one of the best women comedians out there- Maria Bamford. Saaaad day.

>> ^grinter:
Ok, so he provides absolutely no data to back up his argument..

Perhaps you weren't paying enough attention because he wrote a fucking article on the topic. That's spawned the current Who says women aren't funny? article which in turn spawned this video response.

Being too lazy to go read them doesn't mean nobody has presented an argument.

I realize that this has been consistently hard for many people on this site to grasp, but this article does not constitute scientific data.

This I believe is grinter's point. Tone down you language xxovercastxx, you will frighten the fish.

>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^grinter:
Ok, so he provides absolutely no data to back up his argument..
Perhaps you weren't paying enough attention because he wrote...

"I realize that this has been consistently hard for many people on this site to grasp, but this article does not constitute scientific data."

Who claimed that the article itself was "scientific data"? xxxovercastxxx was likely referring to the Stanford study Hitchens cites in his first article which xxxovercastxxx was also nice enough to link to. For someone so critical of others inability to "grasp" things, you should have tried reading the article before you attempted to grasp it yourself.

Keep drinking, arrogant English twit.

"Keep drinking, you arrogant English twit."

As Hitch would say... only some of that is true.

"So, what has been the acheivement of my essay? It has been to get sexier women to try harder to impress me."

As my girlfriend stated: "He is a God amongst Men."

Could you imagine this guy and Sinéad O'Connor in the same room?

My bad; I didn't realize I was in the presence of fishermen.

Anyway, it seems to me Hitch's original article was an editorial, an informal opinion piece, food for thought. Expecting scientific data is to miss the point. I didn't interpret grinter's critique as a demand for scientific data. Perhaps it was, but I can only respond to what is written, not the unwritten intent.

>> ^MycroftHomlz:
I realize that this has been consistently hard for many people on this site to grasp, but this article does not constitute scientific data.
This I believe is grinter's point. Tone down you language xxovercastxx, you will frighten the fish.
>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^grinter:
Ok, so he provides absolutely no data to back up his argument..
Perhaps you weren't paying enough attention because he wrote...

"Keep drinking, you arrogant English twit."
Hitch is American.

Who cares if women are funny or not, they have vaginas and make me sandwiches.

Bringing in Pole-her and Fey to prove women are funny is like bringing feathers to a gunfight.

"This bull-dyke I know in Oregon..."
"Female comedians tend to be Dykes or Jews or both..."

I find it unlikely that you folks would be applauding this if he was striking at anything you actually you cared about. I will admit to passing on by when he was equally annoying while attacking people who I don't think much of, so I only have it coming if you folks think this is entertaining. Whip me, whip me baby.

Ho hum. Dicks been tryin to put my people down for millenia, and often they were wittier when they did it than this tired old ball sac. yawn. Half-hearted downvote since I am sure the rabble find vulva-ridden people like me voting against it more of a proof of his points than anything else.

But just in case any other women read this far and wanted to know that Hitchens is indeed the windbag he seems to be, yeah, he is. Come have coffee with me chat instead of arguing with these folks. I doubt there is a point.

^
Hitch is American.

Uh, WilloTheWisp, he has had United States citizenship for less then a year. Probably a dual citizenship. Born in England, schooled at Cambridge. Unless you mean he's 'American' as in 'I think he's great, and all things that are great are obviously Americun', American.

Berticus is right on the money. I think it is interesting to speculate on the influence humor plays in evolution. Extremely beautiful people are generally not funny (present company excluded) - which would seem to bolster his argument - while most comedians are usually fairly average (or worse) in appearance.

Unfortunately, shameless provocateur Hitch had to needlessly make it a bash on women. He doesn't seem to be able to touch an issue without acting like a complete ass, be it religion or politics. It's a very tiresome gimmick. Maybe that's why they kicked him out of the UK.

This is paining my soul. You can have a penis and find this sexist.

>> ^MycroftHomlz:
This is paining my soul. You can have a penis and find this sexist.


Quoting for emphasis.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
Hitch had to needlessly make it a bash on women.


I totally disagree. Both articles had a certain sarcastic playfulness to them. Especially his rebuttal.

Even Stanley doesn't seem offended in her article, and as Hitchens points out, she draws upon the same examples and exceptions that he did originally.

In my experience men are better at making women laugh then women are at making men laugh. It's an honest observation that doesn't make me or anyone else sexist. There is certainly no shortage of skills women have developed over the centuries that are of a higher order then the male equivalent.

As Mycroft said, his argument is poorly framed. It seems like there is an interesting point to be made here about humor as a device used to gain access to certain social structures, sex being one. Other devices would be attractiveness, intelligence, artistic talent, technical knowledge, wealth, power, etc.

It doesn't seem like it needs to be limited to gender, sexual preference or any other category, though various demographics will probably have advantages. Humor might also help you with plutonic relationships, scoring a job or even talking your way out of an ass kicking in the alley.

OT, but Hitch is also a neocon.

>> ^MycroftHomlz:
This is paining my soul. You can have a penis and find this sexist.


I know. I'm sorry I ranted about the vulva-riddenness and all. I had this mythical woman in mind when I wrote it. One who said something like, "what? no other women raised a flag?" so I wrote what I wrote.

I appreciate the sexism flag being waved by the pole-wielding.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
OT, but Hitch is also a neocon.


He's definitely NOT a neocon. Not that there's anything wrong with that

He's just trying to cause a stir. Look at his face, he likes it. He has manipulated all of you. For nothing. It's an interesting concept only because it makes you look at something in a new/different way, however sexist and stupid, etc...
Live. Love. Laugh. Cliche but true.

"I totally disagree. Both articles had a certain sarcastic playfulness to them. Especially his rebuttal."

Yes, the same playfulness as a "friendly" smack on the ass at the office.

^
"In my experience men are better at making women laugh then women are at making men laugh. It's an honest observation that doesn't make me or anyone else sexist. There is certainly no shortage of skills women have developed over the centuries that are of a higher order then the male equivalent."

Uh, SofaKing, sorry women don't feel like being funny around you.

"I appreciate the sexism flag being waved by the pole-wielding."

This is my favorite comment in a long while.

Uh, SofaKing, sorry women don't feel like being funny around you.


Hey! I've overheard women talking to other men.



>>
Yes, the same playfulness as a "friendly" smack on the ass at the office.


Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? If someone had told me that sort of thing was frowned upon....

I find funny women very hot. Maybe there's is something evolutionary for women to get attention and mate by using humor as bait.

It worked on me. It didn't hurt that she is hot and smart.

Of course according to Hitchen's, she is also imaginary because women cannot be smart, funny, and good looking.

>> ^MycroftHomlz:
It worked on me. It didn't hurt that she is hot and smart.
Of course according to Hitchen's, she is also imaginary because women cannot be smart, funny, and good looking.


He did use the phrase "tends to be". So you got one of the minority. The fact that it is rare is what makes it such a great quality. Either that or she is a closeted lesbian. Either way good for you.

There is less than a handful of female stand up comedians that I find funny, but that's not to say that they aren't funny, because humor is subjective, rather that I just can't relate to them or what they're saying. This is especially true when a female comedian uses observational humor.

Personally, I know plenty of women that can make me laugh, and let me concur with doremifa that it is very very attractive if I can joke and banter back and forth with them.

might be the only hitch sift i didn't upvote.

he's got grains of truth, sure.
but, to me?

it's just the reasons he thought of, to explain why he doesn't think women are funny.
now, i don't doubt that he doesn't find women funny.

but, i do.

>> ^oxdottir:
>> ^MycroftHomlz:
I appreciate the sexism flag being waved by the pole-wielding.


Can i point out i find this hysterical? (and the obvious undermining it gives to the argument).

I recently read "Watching the English" which i loved. Kate Fox was very funny. She'd probably heavily attribute this to her being English, and our using it as a coping mechanism for not killing each other. and for being English. seriously, we need help coping with that.

I'd watch this vid out of curiosity, but having read a few comments now cant be bothered (and im on a none vid watching spree anyway) so hence no vote eitherway.

deserves pimping

http://standup.videosift.com/video/Mrs-Hughes-Live-at-the-Ice-House

^agreed, funny stuff.

More funny female action

>> ^my15minutes:
might be the only hitch sift i didn't upvote.
he's got grains of truth, sure.
but, to me?
it's just the reasons he thought of, to explain why he doesn't think women are funny.
now, i don't doubt that he doesn't find women funny.
but, i do.


Lampenelli is funny no question. But she is a perfect example of one of the exceptions Hitchens mentions in his original essay.

The initial argument itself is simply a short discusssion point
drawn on longer that it should have been.

What a bunch of silly dorks. Of course the title is intentionally inflammatory. So are a lot of his comments. That's how these kind of people make their money.

But that doesn't make him wrong. The content of his argument makes it clear that he is speaking in generalities. If you've got fifty successful male comedians for every one female comedian, it makes you wonder why. And then noticing further trends among those few successful female comics might be cause for further examination. It's not a slap at female intelligence or ability, it's an observation on our society and putting forth some possible reasons. Personally I suspect the phenomenon is much more closely tied to environment rather than some kind of evolved gene on the y-chromosome. But that's just an opinion based on observation and consideration.

The people on here spouting comments about sexism and such are just idiots.

And people posting examples of funny women are missing the point as well.

>> ^doremifa:
I find funny women very hot. Maybe there's is something evolutionary for women to get attention and mate by using humor as bait.

Can I get a witness? Amen, brother. Sense of humor is an aphrodisiac for me. Now maybe Hitch doesn't care if they can even talk, but a funny personality goes a LONG way in the realm of attraction for me.

This video shouldn't just offend women, but men too. It makes every one of us look like all we care about is finding a warm vagina. And that's only true when I'm drunk.

I'm surprised pe>> ^sirex:
was about to cry sexism, but that guy has a point ;-/ - and come to think of it, i dont know any women id consider as funny, either personally or as comics.


Why not say he's both being sexist and accurate? There's a lot of posts that apparently believe that any sexist or racist act must be based on a falsehood. That's silly. Many, if not most, racist and sexist beliefs are based on a truth, on a "good point." There was also another post that seemed to say that it's not sexism so long as women match men in some Cosmic "overall" scale. That's like saying whites and blacks are equal, even if blacks are 16 times more likely to be criminals, because blacks can play basketball better than whites or some other silliness. If I say women aren't as good CEOs as men, that's sexist. Simple. Even if, hypothetically, women were superior in every other aspect of life, saying women aren't as good CEOs as men is still sexist.

Anyway, I share Hitchens' sexist views on this topic. Whenever I find a woman funny, I usually assume she is/was a tomboy, grew up with an influential brother or dad, or something like that.

I'm not sure what I think about this whole thing, but I would like to make the observation that the study that was run in Stanford, the so-called "scientific basis" for this entire brouhaha had an exceptionally small sample size. With only 10 male and 10 female test subjects, even pronounced differences in reaction to humour can only indicate the need for further study.

In other words, this experiment however rigorously conducted, is almost useless because it had far too small a sample group.

As for the rest... it is very difficult to say. Hitchens is a very smart individual, but taste in humour is so very very subjective -- I may find Monty Python hilarious, but somebody else may find it meh.

Attempts to objectively quantify female's success in humour are bound to fail. Even if it is true that female stand up comedians are fewer than men, it is simple to think of a dozen possible reasons for that other than "Women aren't funny." 50 years ago, there were NO women in politics, you could have just as easily said then that "Women are poor at policy decisions." The truth is that there were lots of other factors in play, and I don't think many people would disagree that sexism was a very real factor.

Having said all that against his thesis, I have to admit that I'm not willing to just dismiss it as flat sexism the way that several other commenters have. Granted, he does not endear himself to me with terms like "bull-dyke lesbian", but as I pointed out, comedy is so hard to quantify, it may turn out that women really aren't as funny as men. If it turns out that this is the case, I expect several things will be true:

- The gender difference will turn out to be about as significant as the gender differences in say math ability or pain tolerance threshold, which is to say very slight.
- Any exaggeration of this innate difference in ability will be yet another sign of the sexism of modern society.

Furthermore, no matter how much society changes, I expect that Hitchens will never find women funny. Just as my hypothetical person will probably never "get" Monty Python, there is one thing you can never argue, and that is taste.

There's a sort of ridiculous neomccarthyism against acknowledging differences in average traits between different groups of people. One must simply take it on faith that all people are created equal and everything else is inculcated by the environment. It doesn't take anything more than a cursory look at nature to disprove this politically-correct worldview. Environment can affect anything about a person, but so can genes, and genes vary. We are the sum of our biochemical components. Studies of identical twins separated at birth and raised in different environments have found strong correlations for IQ, height, personality, and other characteristics. Differences in average test scores among various groups do not disappear when you control for parental socioeconomic status, but the bell curves are mostly overlapping.

Of course Hitch is a provocateur. But it is a ploy to get you to actually think about taboo subjects instead of riding the politically correct bandwagon with your fingers stuffed firmly in your ears.

To the Jewish person who was offended, Hitch is of jewish descent, and the statement that funny women were generally "jews or dykes or both" was obviously not some kind of swipe at jews or lesbians but an observation. If anything it was a complement to Jews. Sarah Silverman is Jewish and manly. Roseanne is jewish and manly. Ellen is a lesbian. How many other female comedians have/had their own TV show?

I find it quite amusing to see how common it is for people to attack generalizations with specifics.

Such as:
"Women are overall less funny than men." (Hitch's point)
"No way, omg, Tina Fay/Whoever is SO much funnier than people like Robin Williams/Blah blah blah. And I know tons of women that also are!"

That would be like saying:
"Men are generally stronger than women"
"No way! I know this one bodybuilding chick that could squat you to death!"

Or better yet, so that it won't offend anyone but monkeys:
"Primates have around 5 times the upper body strength of a human male."
"Bah, I once arm wrestled a young monkey that had been in a coma for 2 years and totally beat him!"

Seriously, people, not all generalizations are wrong, generalizations are human nature. Think they're not? What's your general opinion of someone who is jobless? Or lawyers? Yeah, I'm sure none of you have any opinion of either based on past experiences.

It's only when we allow our generalizations to force upon us a way of treating someone that it becomes bad. Such as pre-judging the lawyer as a jerk and not being nice to him, or pre-judging women comedians by not going to a comedy club on an all ladies night.

Don't deny your nature, accommodate it. I guarantee you that there are differences in both the nature and nurture of EVERYONE, and some of it can even be generalized! #shocker#

^Sorry, but I'm still not buying Hitch's basic argument, i.e., that men are funnier than women. I think about all the people I know, and I can't detect a noticeable difference in the degree of "funnyness" between men and women. I know probably about the same number of funny men and funny women, basically.

Here's a thought: Maybe women don't feel a need to showboat their sense of humor like men do. Crazy idea? Not any crazier than the hypothesis old Stumbly is spouting.

>> ^CaptWillard:
^Sorry, but I'm still not buying Hitch's basic argument, i.e., that men are funnier than women.

I hope that caret wasn't pointed towards me, since I at no time and in no way said Hitch was right. I also, of course, didn't say he was wrong either. I just don't have enough knowledge or experience with the subject to say either way. I only argue what I know, and all I know is that it seems to me that there are more male comedians than there are female (subjective observation), which could be caused by men being more funny by nature or by nurture, simply because men enjoy being public spectacle, or one of many other possibilities that I have or have not considered.

I don't think this is an evolutionary trait, I think it's more of a psychological compensation/tactic for acceptance. In other words, this is a psychology problem, not a biology problem.

If you aren't attractive, try being funny. It's another way to be accepted, or to at least get your foot in the door.

Gender shouldn't matter but I think women are more easily accepted socially since they have vaginas and make sandwiches.

Here's a thought: Maybe women don't feel a need to showboat their sense of humor like men do. Crazy idea? Not any crazier than the hypothesis old Stumbly is spouting.


How would one "showboat" their sense of humor? Showing off your ability to be funny is what I'm sure you meant to say. "Sense of humor" and "being funny" are not the same thing.... that point seems to have been missed by a few posters.

As for the "stumbly" remark... kind of tackling the man instead of the ball no?

..and 4 months later I come back to this thread to respond.
xxovercastxx, the guy wrote an article where he puked out the same hilarious editorial that he presented in this video. That article does include one snippet of data, but it is totally irrelevant. It doesn't even come close to being grounds for his argument. Whether or not Hitchens is ultimately right, his argument, as presented here or in Vanityfair, is not valid.
As to whether 'data' have to be "scientific," I don't care... any evidence to back up the guy's blabbering would help.

The reason that I made the comment in the first place is that I'm irritated when people see someone shooting their mouth off in a reputable source, like Vanityfair or VideoSift, and then take what they are saying as fact. An editorial in a magazine is not fact; it is not a source; it is not evidence for anything! It would be clear that Hitchens has no relevant "data", if the reader/viewer just took a second to be critical of what he is saying.

..and thanks for calling me lazy.

>> ^xxovercastxx:
Perhaps you weren't paying enough attention because he wrote a fucking article on the topic. That's spawned the current Who says women aren't funny? article which in turn spawned this video response.
Being too lazy to go read them doesn't mean nobody has presented an argument.

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The duration of this video has been updated from unknown to 4:59 - length declared by radx.