You atheists know who you are...and since yer not a religious belief recognized by the throwback, de-evolutionary theist crowds-at-large, and your seething distaste for the faithful usually takes no-time to digress into name-calling, and childish derision trussed-up in ineloquent, unnecessary, and bothersome preaching-why not try a new approach?? Build a seminary, attract the devout, and start an official "club' if you will, for the word religion, were it up to Atheist dictionary publishers, would no-doubt exist as some newspeak description for all that is wrong with the world. You can all meet on an unholy day of the week like, Thursday, and take donations, have pot-luck dinners, and stroke each other, stroke something.....but jesus H. Christ on a Crippled Crutch, "Get off Mahhh Marine Corp Videosift!!"

(Think that'll stir the kiddies up, Dag?? If you need anymore help, please, feel free to poke.)

And yes, thoughtful discussion concerning religion's pros and cons......hmmmmm there is a shining example of this form of communication here all over the sift....gwann comes first to mind, and most agnostics, who are very pleasant folks for the most part, not fleeing from self-actualization or meaning, but embracing it.

Here's a shining example, of what appears to be, a knee-jerk reaction over an expertly titled,(karaidl)and charged piece of satire.....and they come from the woodworks, to see who has beaten the floorboards.
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Atheist-Delusion#leavecomment

note, how the arguments are made by atheists, in a manner not unlike the most un-schooled and fervent type of banter that Christians are accused of...
"Remember the crusades!'
'Remember the Alamo!"
...and they shall be stoned with pumice.....etc etc etc.......

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

So should we expand the guidelines to include some verbage around belief systems?

meh... that sift was not nearly as bad as some of the many many others kicking around here...

But anyway...

I'm with choggie... although I profess skepticism when it comes to all aspects religious, I have made it a point to steer clear of any such arguments here on the sift for the simple fact that many of the people arguing against religion are just as intolerant and hateful as any puritan at a witch-burning... how you are going to contain them though, I can offer no advice simply because I doubt I can come up with any... good luck dag, all I can say is grab a helmet before they start launching their anti-bibles over the walls

Maybe, it's unfortunate that you would have to, but at times it seems almost necessary, I mean, go on over to the Islamica collective and skim through the comments on some of their vids... the crap gwaan puts up with... I'm so impressed with his fortitude and defiance of the 'mob' that I continue to support Islamica despite my own personal agnostic views... I'd far rather have intelligent discussion than mob-mentality itolerance... it's too bad that everyone can't just be civil and act like adults... instead they continue to prove their own ignorance everyday... its fine if you choose not to believe in god, sometimes in that respect I feel right there with them, but c'mon people, let other's have their voice too, that's what the sift should be about, everyone feeling safe enough that they can share their beliefs without fearing that they will be attacked for it.

you could perhaps make it as simple a statement as," Christians and Atheists must play nicely with one another." or....'This is not your personal pulpit; that is what boring-ass , uni-dimensional, blogs are for."

The U.S. must be one of the most polarised places on the planet at this point in time, followed closely in varying degrees by every country who has adopted its culture. It's not just a religious polarisation either, you can probably say that almost every human issue is being hotly debated by differing sides, who all believe they have exclusive rights to the truth, whatever that may be.

You'll see this reflected in the line of comments on this site and notice that for every opinion, there's an opposite one thrusting itself into our consciousness.

That being said, I agree that it has become pc to bash religions and their followers on this site and I think this is really unfortunate.

For one, I don't think it is representative of the entire community, but of the more opinionated members, and secondly, it's unfortunate because it quickly escalates into a bash-athon, where reasonable discussion goes by the wayside.

While you have one group of people assuming intellectual superiority over others, because they choose to stay with quantifiable evidence, who pit themselves against those who use their faith, intuition or feelings to arrive at answers, you'll see how this can lead to intolerance.

When this argument is leveled at people in whose lives a spiritual life obviously provides a source of comfort and inspiration for, it is definitely not ok with me.

Ok, I just read those comments and that is what we call a debate, while westy may not be as eloquent as some he is just trying to get his point across. Now this person who emailed and said the comments are "absolutely shocking in their rabid, nearly psychotic intolerance." is way out in left field. So far out in left field that it makes me wonder if they are just trying to squash the opinions that are not in line with their own.

Is westy intolerant of religion? no more so than if the shoe was on the other foot. I am sure westy is more intolerant than some, and not as much as others, it comes with the territory.

I am an atheist and didn't start calling myslef one until about 2 years ago, but I have known it all my life. I went to church every Sunday and went to Sunday school and was even baptised. For as long as I can remember I have always perceived religion as a cult. Now over the past few years with the proliferation of people who feel like I do taking it to the net with videos and forums, you are getting a lot of people who call themselves atheists becoming more and more vocal. This scares a lot of people and thus you get counter videos and stuff like godtube, etc. I can see how some atheists try to shout loudly from the rooftops to get their point across, because to us the idea if religion is rather silly and the fact that we watch it as it permeates our life, government, schools, etc is rather frightening. So you get very vocal and somewhat intolerant opinions. To me I can see how it appears to be a battle and I can understand why there is intolerance from the atheist perspective, I can also see how the religious side feels the same way towards us. But the bottom line is it should be ok for me or westy or whoever to say that we feel someone is off their fucking rocker to believe a certain way and why we think that. That being said I am tolerant of religion as long as it doesn't try to effect my way of life, make rules for me, get tought to my kids without my knowledge, and shove it's opinions on me when I don't care to hear it. And I try to do the same to those who have faith, I do not go around spouting my non-beliefs to people around me because to do so would be hypocritical.
I would like to think the two sides can live together and respect each others turf, not sure it will happen anytime soon though.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Atheists-and-Christains-Unite-Embrace-the-Almighty-Slack

Seems more like a problem with insolent, spoiled, kiddies than anything of substance.....most of the atheist banter looks as if it comes from the youngsters....grown-ups in the group sometimes carry on a point-by-point rebuttal, or evoke the highly overrated goddess of intelligence....and then proceed to using her as a trungeon.

Am sorry but adopting any such stance is one way for us to be lead into full on censorship of user comments a la Digg and others... I disagree with that.

Yes there are people who post incendiary comments, but the moment you start regulating what can be said you should ban people like Quantummushroom. Which is not a route VS should go down.

the comments on the video aren't really rabid, they're more in bad taste.

Farhad has a point, we can't begin to censor anyone... that would go against everything I personally believe in... and everything I hope the sift stands for... I guess maybe I was suggesting just some sort of formal statement within the guidlines/rules urging everyone to play nice on this matter... once again, a shame you have to do such, but, obviously quite necessary...

and yeah, grspec is right, this post was not nearly as offensive or hateful as some of the others I've seen here... whoever wrote that letter must not get out much.

The dynamic remains solid here dag, and most of the folks that stir the hive, get stung, ignored, or, in some cases, made a project of.....anyone who wants to be banned, need only to ignore a discussion concerning a post in question, or their non-adherence to civil and amicable guidelines. Consider the person who wrote the complaint letter as you would a child who wishes to get their way, or a shining example of the dynamics of living in a non-linear, perception-bound world.

Siftbot got a little tanked last night: This message originally by Swampgirl:

***************************************************************

(wow, I wrote my comment just after he posted then had to help a kid so pretend this is the second comment )
---------------------------------------------------------------
*quality

Yeah, I gotta hand it to folks like Gwann and Farhad that seem to jump in the thick of it daily. I appreciate the genuinely thought out comment threads on this subject.

I'm not an athiest, but I've criticized *fundamentalists many times, some of you know my reasons. If there are any fundamentals here, I'm sorry to have it out on you guys. I would love to talk w/ you personally, and I'll explain.

There was a time when I wanted to have some real conversations about spiritual matters here, but I soon understood that my questions were rarely welcomed. And yes it was a big turn off and I almost left early in my membership. It just became obvious to me then that in order to enjoy myself here, I just had to check some things at the door.

It's sad when members here have to resort to private messaging to talk about religious topics free of ridicule. I began doing so not long after this: http://www.videosift.com/video/Crazy-super-fundie-christian-freak-on-Trading-Spouses


This community is special I think, and worthy of praise. Many of you that post and comment here I feel I could have real friendships outside here. I'm sure you have similar feelings.

Hey, we're proud of this place aren't we?...it's obvious. But this is an area that could REALLY use some improvement.

Thanks Dag for posting this

* edit: I was referring to Baptist fundamentalists

Gold Star member swampgirl has awarded dag one published post for this quality Sift Talk contribution.

grspec makes a lot of sense and i pretty much agree with everything he said so i won't rehash it.
to censor comments like the ones pointed at would be the beginning of the end, you'd end up banning the majority of users' opinions.
that email reminds me of a kid i used to go to school with. rather than join in with a healthy ongoing argument that he couldn't logically win he'd run to the teacher and start crying. it's a pretty cheap way to throw your weight around.

I would make a distinction between the genetics you are born with (race, ethnic, sex) and what you choose to believe religiously.

Matters of politics, religion, taste, money and sex are topics that bring heated discussions where people sometimes get hurt.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44270

"Tolerance mongers seem to have found the one absolute truth they are willing to live by. How many times have you heard someone say, "Judge not lest you be judged"? The statement has become the great American open-mindedness mantra when anyone has the courage to declare that someone else's belief, actions or lifestyle is morally amiss.

Another form of the same non-judgmental judgment is "that may be true for you, but it's not true for me." The logic behind the statement goes something like this: "Your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth. We are both right, and I hold to my opinion of truth." The last time I checked, it was impossible for two chairs to occupy the same space around my dining room table, but evidently such rules of time, space and logic don't apply to tolerance philosophy."

whatever happened to 'sticks & stones' anyways?

*quality

"So should we expand the guidelines to include some verbage around belief systems?"

Most people are well aware that I often get annoyed by some of the harsh and ill-informed critcisms levelled against people of faith - be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. Sometimes it feels like it is ok to be an intolerant bigot as long as you are an atheist. I do wish that some atheists on this site could be slightly more civil and not make such sweeping comments about all religion and all religious people. Everyone likes a debate - but I get sick of being told that my fundamental beliefs are bullshit. Religious people are NOT all irrational morons who preach hate and never think for themselves - and they shouldn't be treated as such. Thankfully the vast majority of regular long term users on this site are civil and tolerant people.


However, all that being said, the essence of the problem is ignorance. The only way to defeat ignorance is through CIVILISED debate. When someone says something ignorant or hateful it annoys you intensely and your initial reaction may be to try and stop them saying it. But this really should be an absolute last resort - and I think we're a long way from that point. If we start playing the censorship game then we risk restricting the debate, and I don't think that is a good thing. In the long term, censorship is far more damaging than dialogue - no matter how uncivilised that dialogue can get.

Dag's not suggesting censorship I think. Look at this as an overture to the 30 to 50 members here that set the pace around here.

The ones here that have invested themselves socially can influence the entire community to be more tolerable w/o resorting to more rules.

I like your comment swampgirl about "check some things at the door" it is very appropriate in a public forum and necessary. That is the double edge sword that is online communities. You can meet a lot of great people and have some great conversations but you will always get people who like to shit on your parade. It happens in real life too, except in real life you just choose not to associate with these people which you can't do here unless you leave.

Siftbot: cp *quaility swampgirl

Hey! pho3n1x hijacked my comment! LOL, my first comment has pho3n1x on it instead of swampgirl. Siftbot......

"There was a time when I wanted to have some real conversations about spiritual matters here, but I soon understood that my questions were rarely welcomed. And yes it was a big turn off and I almost left early in my membership. It just became obvious to me then that in order to enjoy myself here, I just had to check some things at the door."

It makes me sad to read this - and I must confess that I have felt like this myself sometimes. I'm very glad that Swampgirl decided to stick with the community, and I would encourage her to discuss spiritual matters on the Sift. There are a lot of people on the Sift willing to discuss spiritual matters - they just need a little encouragement.

I would also like to hear from some of the more zealous proselytizing athesists on the sift about the issues that Dag has raised.

weird... (i didn't, but) i can even edit it.

siftbot, drugs are baaad, mmmmkay?

hmm.. a sign from god perhaps!!!

hehe.. sorry I couldn't help myself

Well, if Siftbot doesn't come straighten this out, edit that and stick my name somewhere k?

done

I have to admit this is precisely why I rarely comment on religious matters. They just turn to flames within minutes.

If you expand the posting guidelines make it simple. Of course with VS 3.0 comments will be getting more features, perhaps a digg up/down style system? That could be part of the solution right there.

Be Yourself.....all yer highs, lows, etc., and find a spot-Leave nothing at the door but the trademark shadow, from your lovely ass, and let my people twirl.....!

FOr the record, I didn't see anything in the comments that was over the top 'racist' equivalent towards religion. Maybe towards spirituality in general.

I don't know if choogie or westy really count, as their comments are designed to illict reactions from people. So before anyone starts impugning the community, I want it noted how few people were involved with the said "level of harsh, hateful language directed towards religious beliefs".

I think the emailer (aka anon sensitive member) is a whiny bitch. I can think of a few posts that were much harsher on religion and/or worshipers.

Please don't judge Videosift by the two worst writers on it, Choggie and Westy.
The problem is not criticism of religion, the problem is how it was done in this instance. The posts in that particular thread lacked logical coherence, spelling, and grammar. We should all endeavor to write comments well.

Freedom of speech is extremely important.
I bet everyone here is intolerant of Hitler, slavery, and murder. Intolerance itself is not the problem. Deciding what to be intolerant of is the difficult thing. One should not be able to label any ridiculous view a religion and thereby prevent others from mocking it. I could found a First Church of the Living Parrot and call that Monty Python sketch "hate speech".

There is a huge difference between hating a person for reasons that are beyond his control, such as his "race", and hating a particular ideology like Nazism or Wahabism or Christian Fundamentalism. Every believer of such ideologies has the choice to believe in something else, therefore it is not bigotry to mock an ideology. One should distinguish between disparaging an idea and disparaging the person who believes in it.

Criticism of religion emphatically does NOT deserve the same opprobrium as bigotry based on race, gender, or sexual orientation, because every religion is an idea that people can choose to believe or disbelieve. But the criticism of religion should be done in a rational, elegant, and well-reasoned way.

I support absolute free speech, regardless.

*ahem* Godwin's Law.

let other's have their voice too, that's what the sift should be about, everyone feeling safe enough that they can share their beliefs without fearing that they will be attacked for it.

Nobody is censoring any comments here. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion do not mean freedom to say whatever you want without allowing anybody to post a rebuttal. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

You can rebut the atheists that rebut you. If you'd rather not debate, fine. No one is forcing you to read or not read, or to post or not post.

By the way, apostraphes are never used to make words plural. http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/

setting special cases is BAD™.

either you can do something or you cannot.

so. Either you can flame and/or make fun of ANYTHING, or NOTHING.

if you start saying race or religion or whatever are to be treated differently, you'll end up in a real mess.


PS: ROTFL @ Godwin's law

You can all meet on an unholy day of the week like, Thursday, and take donations

Ah, yes, Thursday, the most unholiest of days! It's when Satan was born, and when I do all my blaspheming.

(I'm staying out of this one.)

I often avoid videos on religion/atheism as well, mainly because the comments are often very caustic towards those who are religious. There were a couple of videos (that happened to be about atheism) that I downvoted because I didn't consider them to be siftworthy material, but on the whole, I leave them alone. The above video was a special case, since I actually know the guy in the video personally.

With this video, it's very telling that 3 of the first 4 posts consisted primarily of denouncing religion right off the bat. (I realize that Westy has a tendency towards being . . . Westy, but I'm still getting used to that.) Would it be so hard to accept that yes, this guy is religious, and yes, it has helped his life to some extent. You don't need to believe in religion, but at very least respect the point of views of the people that do.

It wasn't so long ago that if you called yourself atheist, you were persecuted and sometimes put to death for your beliefs. (Or lack thereof.) Now that atheism has become more acceptable, is it really necessary to turn around and start treating those who are religious with contempt? Is it so hard to see someone with religious beliefs and respect them for it?

On a final note, I'd like to point out a little TV show called Firefly. (I realize that this analogy may be lost on some who haven't seen it, but bear with me.) For those who have seen it, you know that the main character, Mal, was atheist. One of his crewmates, Book, was a firm believer. At first Mal didn't care for Book, since he had some preconceptions about his religion, but in the end they became close friends, even though Mal remained atheist. Their opposing beliefs sometimes resulted in arguments, but they kept it civil for the most part. Is it too much to ask that we do the same?

hey silvester!
popculture for the win!

What about a collective that would hold videos about the many myths, cosmology, religion etc. of various cultures - something along the line of the Islamica?

Damn..just when this was headed to settling down, a comment like that.....the very idea of lambasting my ramblings!!??? From a fellow dago as well!! Meaning comes in many forms, the written word being the one of the least effective of mediums...

then there's JD's, "don't know if choogie or westy really count, as their comments are designed to illict reactions from people."

Westy and myself plan our deluges days in advance over many bottles of Armagnac, and I personally wrote the book on responding to comments that illicit reactions....."Ever seeeeeen an ass-kickin' mullet???"

jesus fucking christ, i want the simpsons banned from here but it doesn't stop me coming back every day!

get a THICKER SKIN people. it's the only way.

you don't have to read the comments. if you DO read them, and you find something you don't like, well, that's your problem. This is the internet, you can't complain if you open a file called xxxrussianteen.gif.scr and get a virus!

the comments here are soooooooooooo much better than youtube and much better than most other forums where religion is discussed.

if you implement digg upvote/downvote for every comment, THEN i will leave. That is petty in the extreme. Why do "liberals" always discuss censorship so much? should be a nobrainer.... this is a discussion forum, not a preschool class.

Anyway will carry on believing in god (small g) and when i see atheists making stupid comments i will treat them like i would treat anyone else who makes a stupid comment.... i.e. laugh, feel pity, move on.

we have had this debate on another forum where i am admin... there are many under 18 visitors, and in the end we just said NO PORN, NO SNUFF, NO AD HOMINEM. and that's it.

I think the important thing to realize here is that we're trying to maintain a friendly community. How can a community be friendly if some members feel that they get less respect than others solely based on their beliefs? A member shouldn't feel that just because they are religious, they are considered mentally inept by other members of the community.

It's not so much about censorship as it is about politeness.

"It's not so much about censorship as it is about politeness."

Amen!!!

feelings are subjective constructs
polite to me, may be a slap in the face to you-
social skills come in varrying stages of incubation
This hair preparation, contains chemicals known to the State of California, to cause cancer, in laboratory animals, and some domesticated primates.

Fletch's last comment here: http://www.videosift.com/video/Children-in-militant-Kindergarten-Ceremony is a perfect example of what gets on my nerves. There is no Islamic voting block - me, other Muslims, and non-Muslims on the site have submitted videos which are critical about Islamic fundmentalism. Furthermore, Fletch's tone is crude and abusive.

I've found that Fletch has lacked tact in more than one occasion. (Not to mention it's just weird to see that coming from a smiling pig.)

Although I did upvote the video because I feel that if we're going to have vids about brainwashing Christians, than it seems only fair that other religions should apply too. Does it represent Christians as a whole? No. Muslims? Nope. But it's still worth knowing that the crazies are out there.

Please don't institute comment upvotes/downvotes. I barely have time to vid vote.

Most of the comment threads about religion do tend to rescue themselves from pure flameout because of members like gwaan, Sylvester, etc. are up to debate in a civil fashion. So it seems that the e-mailer was on the sensitive side. Even the thread in question turned interesting after the pro forma doggerel of "All religion is Bullshit!" was spat upon the page. Too many atheists here either don't recognize or don't care to grapple with the cultural and communicative value that religion provides to some individuals and some communities. A value that is similar to the value that quantitative or scientific rationalism provides to atheists.

yes, we should all try to be polite, that is obvious.
but if somebody else isn't polite, then we have to choose between accepting it or starting some strange committee to define politeness.

Not to come to the defense of Fletch but it seems that what I read was someone who is very frustrated with Islam and the fact that he just watched several videos one of which included a girl being stoned to death and was a little on the pissed off side because someone was trying to tell him "hey, Islam is peacfull" right after he saw a video that seemed to say otherwise.

I can understand his being upset, think about it this way, you have a father who says he loves you, yet he beats you. you hear one thing and see another. With Islam we are told over and over that the people as a whole are peaceful yet what we see and feel is often just the opposite.

That being said, If I was gwaan, I would just pm fletch and discuss it.

I still think any censoring of posts is a bad idea.

"With Islam we are told over and over that the people as a whole are peaceful yet what we see and feel is often just the opposite."

I have spent a long time on this site posting videos that do show the other side of Islam, the side rarely seen in the mainstream media/press - particularly in America. I don't like video of people being stoned to death anymore than Fletch. They make me angry too. The difference is in the way we respond. I denounce the actions and teachings of Islamic fundamentalists and try to teach people - Muslim and non-Muslim - about the Islam that the vast majority of Muslims follow. Fletch responds by abusing all Muslims, calling all Islam a hateful religion and telling me to shove the Qur'an where the sun don't shine. It's about politeness. If I object to a video I comment, I may vote against it, but I don't resort to simplistic abuse and gross generalisations.

Furthermore, before I had ever had the chance to talk to Fletch he said "I'm not going to debate you, because I've seem from past exchanges you've had with BRM that it is pointless". Furthermore he accused me of viewing non-Muslims as infidels - which I don't and consequently found very offensive.

Sylvester said: "How can a community be friendly if some members feel that they get less respect than others solely based on their beliefs? A member shouldn't feel that just because they are religious, they are considered mentally inept by other members of the community.

People are judgmental and you are going to have some who think less of others becuase of their beliefs. But like Mink said you just have to have a some skin on you. I know full well that when I post a comment that states I am an atheist I will alienate a certain percentage of people. They may not want to talk to me or be associated with me and thats fine, it happens, and honestly I wouldn't want to get know people that shallow. I personally don't give a rats ass what you believe in as long as you understand that you have your beliefs and I have mine.

In the end I think it works out though, you might have some people that shun you for your beliefs but in the end those people will spend their days lonely and unhappy.

gwaan said: Furthermore, before I had ever had the chance to talk to Fletch he said "I'm not going to debate you, because I've seem from past exchanges you've had with BRM that it is pointless". Furthermore he accused me of viewing non-Muslims as infidels - which I don't and consequently found very offensive.

if thats the case then that is a shame and the cheap way out.

"I know full well that when I post a comment that states I am an atheist I will alienate a certain percentage of people. They may not want to talk to me or be associated with me and thats fine, it happens, and honestly I wouldn't want to get know people that shallow."

Saying that you are an atheist, or arguing in a civilised manner in favour of atheism and against theism shouldn't alienate anyone who is worth talking to. I'm a Muslim with very good atheist friends and family. But what I and others object to is the constant volley of abuse levelled at people of faith.

Please no one ask for comment voting,censorship,guideline revisions or new rules?

Boo to censorship. Boo to whining. The intellectualism of our discussions vary, but look at other forums on the internet. Where on the internet are you going to find a video that shows a crazy dude talking about organisms coming from peanut butter and not find comments to the effect of: "This guy is gay." "God sucks." "U all stpid FAGS GTFO off of Jesus he is the best" etc etc

I think the ability of sifters to say what they feel should override people's feelings. The internet is all about free speech, in one form or another.

"The internet is all about free speech, in one form or another."

Let me reiterate - I'm against censorship. But this is a community, and there is a delicate balance between community cohesion and free speech. A community where everyone goes around abusing one another will not be a community much longer and it won't attract others to join it. Personally I am asking some people if they could be less abusive in the future - but this is a personal request, not a call for changing the rules or censorship.

Gwaan just stated "A community where everyone goes around abusing one another will not be a community much longer and it won't attract others to join it." That would be true also of VS if that were happening here. However, here at VS you have a vocal part of this community who just abuse certain others. And they will attract like-minded people. So, the community will grow, but it will grow narrow.

While I agree that the comments that spawned this SiftTalk post don't rise to the level of derision, condescension and disdain that warrants a harsh cry of "foul," there are plenty of comments here that do. Swampgirl rightly notes that this is not a very welcoming place for those disposed toward the spiritual - especially Christians, but other religions as well.

Ask yourself this: What if a goldstar decided to start a collective entitled: Christianica? What would it get . . . 3 members? 5? How many upvotes on videos? 6 or 7? I can guarantee that there are more Christians on here than you might imagine. But where are they? Silenced, excommunicated, shamed, mocked, you name it. Dag once said, "we don't have a resident theologian on the Sift." Don't be too sure. You might be surprised at who is contributing here.

On the table of this discussion seems to be the thought of making more rules . . . kind of like "hate-speech" rules. Well, since VS already legislates morality, why not? We ban porn, and self-links, and racism, so why not ban hate-speech for religion? Here's why not - it doesn't do any good. Rules don't change the hate that's in a person's heart. They just drive it into hiding.

Here is a question I think we need to answer - how are we going to treat people?; not just the like-minded. How are we going to treat everyone? Is VS going to be a welcoming community? Warm? Receptive? Is it big enough to encompass contributors from all walks of life? Are we collectively evolved enough to divine the charlatans from the seekers? I don't know. It doesn't look like it so far.

don't feel so bad choggie... not only do you not count and are a terrible writer... but apparently one typo has relegated me to the ranks of the ignorant who do not understand apostrophes... well, before I unleash a tirade on that matter which rivals any of the religious flame wars I'm going to duck out...

take note though jwray... correcting a librarian on grammatical issues is never smart... its a pride issue and you've incurred some wrath buddy... do it again and I will personally proofread every mutherluvin' comment you make... you've been warned!!

anyway... my two cents on some things: comment voting- booo! censorship- even more booo! more collectives like Islamica that try to deal with religion in an objective fashion- yaaaay!

And gwaan, keep up the good work man, clearly there are many in the western world who need to better understand your chosen faith.

I love this place. I love that dag wants to know how we all feel about this. I love the above 50 or so comments. I love that I am taking the time to post a comment. I love that we dont have to wade through tons of crappy, worthless comments. I love that sifters care. I love that I learn here. I love that I'll get my head checked if I say something stupid. I love that we dont need to many rules.

I generally just like this place. Dag,id leave it just the way it is.

hey, SC... don't forget Mormonica, Scientologica, and UFO-cultica!

'Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts.'

'Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument.'

..or my favourite

'you cannot reason prejudice out of a man it wasn't reasoned into him in the first place'

"What if a goldstar decided to start a collective entitled: Christianica? "

I think a 'Christianica' collective would be a very welcome contribution to the Sift!!!
You are right Silvercord, there are a lot of Christians on this site and they deserve a voice too. I have spoken to several of them about why they don't get involved in debates and stand up for their faith, and what I usually here is that they don't want to be abused and mocked by people who aren't prepared to enter into a civilised debate. I know of at least one Gold/Diamond member Christian who has not founded a collective yet. I would encourage them to found a Christian collective - I would join it, and I think you will find that many other people will too.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I agree a Christianica collective would do well.

Ah, yes, UFO-cultica. Was that Michael Jackson in that video?

http://www.videosift.com/video/Proof-Extraterrestrial-life-on-Earth-NOW

You don't need to believe in religion, but at very least respect the point of views of the people that do.

Respect the person, not necessarily his ideas. Elegantly craft lucid debate.

I am against all censorship. Christopher Hitchens put it best in his eloquent rebuttal to a motion to ban "hate speech" in Canada: Hitchens on Freedom of Expression. There is no reason to feel so threatened by mere words of debate. You don't have to read any of it if you don't want to. If you have good reasons for your beliefs, you should be able to do well in a debate with anybody about those beliefs.


the comments here are soooooooooooo much better than youtube and much better than most other forums where religion is discussed.

Agreed.

take note though jwray... correcting a librarian on grammatical issues is never smart... its a pride issue and you've incurred some wrath buddy... do it again and I will personally proofread every mutherluvin' comment you make... you've been warned!!

Bring it on

take note though jwray... correcting a librarian on grammatical issues is never smart... its a pride issue and you've incurred some wrath buddy... do it again and I will personally proofread every mutherluvin' comment you make... you've been warned!!

Bring it on

/me grabs a bucket of popcorn

"Respect the person, not necessarily his ideas"

If just finished watching that Christopher Hitchens video that jwray recommended above. The first part is very good - an erudite and lucid defence of free speech which I highly support. Hitchens argues that some religious people use freedom of speech to spread an intolerant message of hate, but then call for censorship when people start criticising their beliefs. This is entirely true, and is precisely why we should not have censorship. But then Hitchens descends into a venomous rant aimed at all religions - but of course, he reserves particular contempt for Islam. I have two points to make regarding the rest of the video:

(1) What is so ridiculous is that his comments about the Qur'an show that he has never ever read it. For example, he claims that the vast majority of the Qur'an is a bad copy of previous religious texts. This is just factually untrue - from an Islamic and an objective sceptical perspective. While there are indeed some references to the Bible - New and Old Testaments - in the Qur'an, it is an original work of a very different nature - structurally, poetically, theologically, etc. Furthermore, he never talks about the historical and political factors contributing to the rise of modern Islamic extremism - seeking instead to portray it as an inevitable manifestation of the Islamic faith.

(2) I don't see how someone like Hitchens can claim to be anti-hatred when he himself preaches hatred. He does not simply urge people to be wary, or sceptical, or critical of religion - but to hate religion. Now he could argue that he is urging hatred of ideas not of people - respect the people, not the ideas. But religion is such an important part of many people's personal identity that it is very difficult to disentangle the people from their beliefs.

Hatred should never be advocated - it is no substitute for objective criticism.

Look out jwray! Just found this true fact:


Ravens will eat almost anything, from insects to grass and young birds to sickly lambs. If ever you find a recently dead animal on the moor the chances are the eyes have been pecked out by the 'sheep vultures'.

Remember Hitchcock's "The Birds?" Hmmmm?

Three little words: Eyes. Pecked. Out.

For the record, I'm an atheist, and while I personally believe religion is a hateful and damaging institution (in all forms), for the subject of internet forums, people (on all sides)need to learn to grow thicker skin. If this offends you, I hope you never find 4chan or browse slashdot at -1...

A parody, not intended for the promotion of anything, but to hopefully give those on the pro-religion side a different prespective to think about.:

This message was received from [anonymous] at [anonymous]@yahoo.comscientology.org:

I've enjoyed visiting VideoSift for some time now. But even though I've considered joining the community, there's something that I find quite disturbing--the level of harsh, hateful language directed towards religious beliefs the peaceful church of scientology in the posts and comments.

The comments on this post are absolutely shocking in their rabid, nearly psychotic intolerance. They call our legitimate religion a cult! I would ask you to make similar strict guidelines to discourage videos or comments that talk about religion or spirituality scientology or dianetics in ways that are intolerant, prejudiced, and hateful. Discussing religion in a frank, probing, and respectful carefully controlled, profitable way is vital in the world we live in to our profit margins, and I have no problem with videos or comments that encourage me to think critically carry our party line dogma about these issues. However, the kinds of comments I've seen on this website only degrade the VideoSift community and discourage visitors like me from joining encourage lawsuits from us. Please consider taking steps to ensure that VideoSift will be more welcoming and as a result more successful I won't have to send our lawyers after you for betraying our scams. Thank you.

Yes, I call boo on the censoring of comments. This is really the only online community that I interact with on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. I love this place..cept for those damn Family Guy vids

Anyway, I'm an atheist. I like to think that I'm tolerant to religious beliefs. Though I have singled out certain people in the Christian fundamental community as bad for humanity (and I believe that Christians will agree with me) because of personal experience with fundamentals. When fundamentals come a witnessing to my son who's not old enough to decide for himself, that doesn't sit well with me.

Religion isn't bad. If it was, I would think the world would be in a bigger hurt than it is now. It's just a misguided few who interprets their religion in an extreme fashion that are bad. I can see a "Jedi" follower getting all Death Star on a city or even a crazy atheist doing the same. No belief system is safe as long as there is an extreme view of it.

A Christianica collective would be almost immediately devoured by all of the dreadful but lovely GodTube material out there.

A little Ray Comfort goes a long way . . .

First off, I'm Catholic, and I believe that technically speaking, we call all religions "cults". Of course, the term "cult" has severe negative connotations in today's society, but sucks to their assmar, it's still a legit word. If you're getting together with someone of another religion, the term IIRC is "disparity of cult".

Having said that - and moving on to another topic - codenazi makes some excellent points there - the freedom of speech at the sift is key - just got to remember to keep things civil!

Agreed with raven's first comment - it's nowhere near as intense as some other sifts. Although perhaps we downgrade some of the things westy says, not treating them as being as toxic/mean as they would be if they came from others? THat's my attitude, anyway.

deputydog made an excellent point about the kid running to teacher reference, which it seems like others agree with; despite the 'lame-ness' of the approach, it did spawn a rather good discussion.

Christianica sounds like way too narrow a focus - some kind of all encompassing Yahweh/YayGod type thing sounds even more in order. That's how I would set things up, anyway - even MG&FAS was set up with inclusion of many 'intelligent-adult'-grade cartoons in mind.

--------------------------------
Going to reply to a few of the other comments because they amused me in some way:
--------------------------------
In reply to your comments:
“*ahem* Godwin's Law.”
Of course, the traditional application IMHO means you'd have to call someone a Nazi first rather than just make a reference, but perhaps you take a broader approach to that ID, or were just being funny. Either way, thumbs up.

--------------------------------
>fellow dago
"what did I say about ethnic slurs" <- Celebrity Jeopardy
--------------------------------
>i want the simpsons banned from here but it doesn't stop me coming back every day!
>get a THICKER SKIN people. it's the only way.

http://off.videosift.com/ FTW!!!

Has everyone forgotton our M.I.A. Ladybug's collective? It's supposed to cover religion in general.

Godwin's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

i guess it's not a direct comparison, but close enough for me to call it. two thumbs up indeed. heh.

Fletch posted the following videos
http://www.videosift.com/video/Sleeper-Cell-The-True-Islam
http://www.videosift.com/video/Londonstan-Sharia-Law-Islam-holy-war-in-Great-Britain
http://www.videosift.com/video/Blaming-the-jews-Hate-in-Islam
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Trouble-with-Islam-Pat-Condell
http://www.videosift.com/video/Truth-about-Islam-from-an-ex-muslim-lady

Reacting in such a manner instead of talking it civilly is a bit immature, especially since a thread was here regarding the issue. And VS Muslim PR club? Hah.

Let videos float in the queue. What do you achieve from this dissemination of information?

Is it representative of the entire religion? Clearly not. The largest population of Muslim doesn't actually reside in the Middle East.

Is it the same as Christian bashing? Well are there American tanks rolling around Christians lands or Islamic lands? What do you think misunderstanding and fear breed?

Are you giving credence to a small minority and thus giving them power? Absolutely. This is clearly seen in current politics, just yesterday Iran and it's leader were being built up as some kind of war mongering nuclear armed dictator. No one of course talks about the massive sea and air power the US and UK field in the Persian gulf, capable of crippling nay destroying the entire nation of Iran in seconds back to the stone age. The misrepresentation of power politics in the Middle East is perverse.

What are the solutions offered? None.

So what is the basic conclusion. Let the war escalate, destroy every terrorist cell and Islamic nation for that matter. Where do the paths lead. Think about that. Understanding and diplomacy or more strong arm politics and war mongering.

I cannot fathom how I can have lived in the Middle east for as long as i have and strangely never been exposed to any of the garbage i have seen online. Clearly I am blind.

Ugh... Fletch is one of the only guys on here that I've never really liked too much. Would it be wrong of me to downvote all of those posts? Maybe, so I won't, but I feel like it.

I dunno, Fletch may be proving a point.

The point of the video is that Muslim fundamentals are crazy and dangerous. Yes, agreed. But that's not his point, and it's obvious. How is it obvious? All you need to do is check out his commentary - http://www.videosift.com/video/Children-in-militant-Kindergarten-Ceremony

Many Muslims leave me with a disturbed feeling. They don't have to be terrorists, just sympathizers. Back in middle school, just shortly after 9/11, we all watched a news program called Channel One News at the start of the day. On one episode, they interviewed several Muslim teenagers in a high school and a startling number of them believed the 9/11 hijackers would go to heaven. But it's people like Gwaan that restore my faith in Islam's reconstruction in the world's image, and it's people like Fletch that tear it down.

So ask yourself, who's more productive?

I dunno, Fletch may be proving a point.

Reading some of these comments... proven.

I know this isn't the place for this, but I didn't choose it...

gwaan... we have a guy like you at work who is the biggest ass-kisser I've ever known, and you could teach him a thing or two. You are absolutely slick as snot! Some of the sheeple here seem to be taken by your faux reasonableness, and your earnest desire to just get along, but I'm not. Not anymore. I see you, gwaan. I do. You only seem to be interested in dealing dogma, and are dismissive and condescending to any view or comment or video which criticizes Islam. You equate others' negative reaction to the actions of muslims around the world to telling you that your "fundamental beliefs are bullshit". You see things as you choose to see them, and circle the wagons (like in this thread) when others challenge you or don't swallow your bullshit whole.

As I read down the comments of this thread (btw, didn't see this thread 'til after I posted the vids farhad felt he needed come here and report; pretty transparent campaigning, btw), I knew it wouldn't be long before you mentioned the evil fletch. And you did. Over and over. Whatsamatta? Get under your skin so much you felt the need to "run to teacher" and misquote me, take things I said out of context, and completely fabricate things that I didn't say? You aren't interested in dialog. You are only interested in preaching to the little choir you've assembled here who actually believe that YOU, and you alone, are able to decipher the quran's meaning. You can't stand people who don't accept every lengthy diatribe of yours as holy scripture and you are extremely quick to accuse those who read or interpret it differently, or even literally, as not having read it at all.


And karaidl... that bandwagon is already over-loaded. I don't think they need another spit-boy, anyway. Maybe you should learn to play.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I've stickied this, as it appears this is where the party is

Instead of a guideline on religion, perhaps we need something on respect for fellow Sifters. The ad hominem comments are flowing freely from several sources now - as they do in a lot of the religion posts.

To paraphrase Billy Graham- hate the post, not the poster.

Word.

Fletch posts 6 vids in this playlist: "Islam - Died in the Queue" after the conversation with Gwaan in this video:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Children-in-militant-Kindergarten-Ceremony
which was posted a full day before this thread began.

But the point I saw was that all these videos made it through the queue:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Crazy-super-fundie-christian-freak-on-Trading-Spouses
http://www.videosift.com/video/Kirk-Cameron-The-Evolution-Zone
http://www.videosift.com/video/Sam-Harris-lectures-on-the-dangers-of-both-religious-fundamentalism-and-religious-moderation
http://www.videosift.com/video/Crazy-American-Fundamentalist-Christian
http://www.videosift.com/video/Dispatches-The-New-Fundamentalists-on-Channel-4
http://www.videosift.com/video/Doin-Nails-for-Jesus--from-Jesus-Camp
http://www.videosift.com/video/God-Hates-Fags
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Secret-Life-Of-Brian-Monty-Pythonreligion-documentary
http://www.videosift.com/video/Alan-Moore-discusses-religion-with-Stewart-Lee
http://www.videosift.com/video/Louis-Thereuxs-Weird-Weekend-Televangelists-next-5-inside
http://www.videosift.com/video/Richard-Dawkins-BBC-Interview
http://www.videosift.com/video/Gods-Next-Army-evangelicalpolitical-documentary-212
http://www.videosift.com/video/Christopher-Hitches-on-the-Death-of-Jerry-Falwell
http://www.videosift.com/video/Voltron-the-Transformers-are-the-work-of-Satan
http://www.videosift.com/video/Fundamentalism-vs-Evolution-The-Train-Crash
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Passion-of-Christ-2-Judgement-Day
http://www.videosift.com/video/UFO-Obsesed-Christians-Science-Public-Access-Television
http://www.videosift.com/video/Stephen-Lynch-Craig-Christ
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Atheist-P-Funk-is-Accosted-by-Christian-Evangelists
http://www.videosift.com/video/the-chapman-brothers-jump-rope-for-the-glory-of-god
http://www.videosift.com/video/Pope-has-never-read-Bible--Violence-Contrary-to-Gods-Nature
http://www.videosift.com/video/Jesus-Camp-on-Bill-Maher
http://www.videosift.com/video/Jesus-Heal-My-Masturbation-Genes-Story
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-God-Who-Wasnt-There-2005-documentary-film-1-hour
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Blasphemy-Challenge
http://www.videosift.com/video/QI-Christmas-Christianity-and-Mithras-Funny
http://www.videosift.com/video/Pulitzer-prize-winner-compares-US-Christian-Right-to-Fascism
http://www.videosift.com/video/Robert-Johnson-Expose-by-Christian-Group
http://www.videosift.com/video/Sign-of-the-Apocalypse-Christian-Comedy
http://www.videosift.com/video/Man-Says-Hes-Jesus-Followers-Get-666-Tattoos
http://www.videosift.com/video/Who-gives-you-candy-Jesus-or-Castroanti-commie-film-clip
http://www.videosift.com/video/Louis-Thereuxs-Weird-Weekend-Televangelists-next-5-inside
http://www.videosift.com/video/Kevin-Smith-about-Mel-Gibson
http://www.videosift.com/video/An-atheist-among-Christians-for-30-days
http://www.videosift.com/video/Chocolate-Jesus-Makes-Catholics-CRAZY
http://www.videosift.com/video/Jesus-Camp-controversial-2006-Evangelical-documentary
http://www.videosift.com/video/Stewart-Lee-Dont-get-me-started-
http://www.videosift.com/video/Ted-Haggard-Is-Completely-Heterosexual-by-Roy-Zimmerman
http://www.videosift.com/video/Mike-Daiseys-Christian-Audience-Protest-Walkout-and-Attack
http://www.videosift.com/video/God-is-not-Great-Stewart-interviews-Hitchens
http://www.videosift.com/video/Dr-Seuss-Bible
http://www.videosift.com/video/Kirk-Cameron-on-the-OReilly-Factor
http://www.videosift.com/video/School-Prayer-Debate-Turns-To-Hitler-Debate http://www.videosift.com/video/Doug-Stanhope-Why-I-dont-Believe
http://www.videosift.com/video/How-to-Witness-to-a-Homosexual
http://www.videosift.com/video/Self-Induced-Religious-Fit
http://www.videosift.com/video/Bill-Maher-interviews-Christoper-Hitchens
http://www.videosift.com/video/Submissive-Jesus
http://www.videosift.com/video/Bill-Mahers-New-Rules-Heaven-Can-Hate
http://www.videosift.com/video/United-States-of-Jesus
http://www.videosift.com/video/GodTube-how-to-deal-with-pr0n-on-the-intertubes
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Atheist-Delusion
http://www.videosift.com/video/Miracles-and-Morals
http://www.videosift.com/video/Life-and-Liberty-for-All-Who-Believe
http://www.videosift.com/video/Let-the-bodies-hit-the-floor-religious-smackdown
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Evangelical-War-On-Science

I may be out of line here, but in my opinion:
Fuck any religion and any horse it may choose to ride in on.

It's completely separated from any racial debate and should be treated as such, as a belief system it should be subject to any scrutiny that rational debate dictates, and just because someone can't handle the general opinions of the unwashed masses on their beliefs does not mean they deserve special treatment.

"Fletch posts 6 vids in this playlist: "Islam - Died in the Queue" after the conversation with Gwaan in this video:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Children-in-militant-Kindergarten-Ceremony
which was posted a full day before this thread began."

I wouldn't exactly call it a "conversation". More of a rant.

EDIT: The "Died in the Queue" thing was simply an attempt to be clever, as they are still in the queue.

"But the point I saw was that all these videos made it through the queue:"

Touché. Point taken. (although most, practically all, of those have nothing to do with criticizing Islam specifically)

@ren - I see the issue here as the tearing down of people. Any belief system is up for debate. I agree with you on that. Unfortunately, belief system debates have a tendency to not remain as such. Many of these "debates" just turn into excuses to call someone else "moron." Check out the tags and comments on some of the above videos to see examples.

Right, Fletch. Sorry. That was not meant as a touche. It was meant to underscore what you were saying. None of those videos have anything to do with Islam.

Un-Touché, then. I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

I think that some people aren't understanding what the issue is here. Those who are offended by such comments as the one in the video are not offended because the people making those comments are against religion. They are offended because the comments are attacks against them.

It's fine to say "I'm not to crazy about [religion] because it's just a load of supernatural mythology," or something like that. And there's nothing wrong with even saying you despise a certain religion, though from there you have to remember that those who believe in it believe in it strongly, so they'll have a strong reaction.

What's not all right is saying something akin to "Those who believe in this religion are idiots," or something along those lines. This is a personal attack on those people, and is really unsubstantiated.

Taking it to a different level, someone may not approve of homosexuality. They may say something along the lines of "I don't approve because I consider it a sin," or "I consider it to be an unnatural relationship," (though the second may be stretching it in terms of civility, depending on the company). But saying something like "Homosexuals are all AIDS-ridden and immoral," is an attack on the people, which is never right.

What should be done is not to censor anyone for saying they may have different views on any subject, but to hold them accountable for what they say. If their comments are hateful or derogatory, then do they really have place on a site that proclaims itself to be above such things?

"You only seem to be interested in dealing dogma, and are dismissive and condescending to any view or comment or video which criticizes Islam." - Fletch

"None of those videos have anything to do with Islam." - Silvercord

The following videos, are all critical of Islamic fundamentalism, and have all been published on this site – in my own Islamica collective:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Muslim-Women-Fight-for-Equal-Access-to-Canadas-Mosques
http://www.videosift.com/video/Riz-Khan-The-Fight-Against-Honour-Killings-in-Jordan
http://www.videosift.com/video/Panorama-White-Fright-Britains-Growing-Ethnic-Division
http://www.videosift.com/video/Divorced-Women-in-Yemen-Struggle-to-Find-Social-Acceptance
http://www.videosift.com/video/Pakistan-Between-The-Mullahs-And-The-Military
http://www.videosift.com/video/Al-Jazeera-The-Plight-of-Womens-Rights-Activists-in-Iran
http://www.videosift.com/video/Female-Author-Talks-About-Women-Sex-and-Taboos-in-Saudi
http://www.videosift.com/video/Muslim-Women-Fight-For-Equal-Access-To-British-Mosques
http://www.videosift.com/video/A-Stranger-In-Her-Own-City-A-Tomboy-in-Yemen
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Doha-Debates-Tackling-Extremism-Must-See-Debate
http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Women-of-Islam-Veiling-Seclusion-Great-Documentary

Hey - but I guess they don't count???

Hi Gwaan,

I have seen most of those videos and they most certainly count in this discussion. I appreciate civility of debate within your own Collective and what I've seen as a willingness on your part to confront issues under the umbrella that is Islam. Even when, to the Collective credit, videos critical of Islam are posted, I get the impression that most of the dialog is conducted as adults.

By way of comparison, I listed videos having to do specifically with Christianity. Many of them and their commentators are more than merely dismissive of the Christian faith. While I find a lot of things Christians do in the name of God abhorrent, I also believe that on a very fundamental level, we're all in this together. However, when the rhetoric toward the faithful or the faithless descends into personal attack we all lose. That goes for people who condescend toward Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu, Atheists, etc.

I think that my posting of that list was misunderstood by both Fletch and you. Either that means I hit the mark, or it means that I screwed up. Knowing me it was probably the latter. All I meant by it was this: the Christians aren't the problem and the Muslims aren't the problem and the Atheists aren't the problem. The problem is the problem. We're running out of time on this little sphere and our children are going to suffer if they aren't already doing so. And if we all can't figure out a way to make it work and focus on what's important, we're not going to have a world in which we have the luxury to explore the wonders of the universe, both exterior and interior. That's all I'm saying here. I've said too much already.

Peace.

I think even religious people, at their core, know religion infantilizes them, but we all have our coping mechanisms, don't we? Myself, I couldn't fall asleep at night if I didn't have faith I was going to wake up the next morning. (Difference is, things like faith, love, morality, etc. were around long before we attached divinity to them.)

So I don't make a point of criticizing other people's coping mechanisms - until they use them to take advantage of other people, as radical monotheism often has.

OMFG, gwaan. THAT'S your f'in' list of vids critical of Islam? It's a weally beeg list ya got there gwaanster, but the contents just don't cut the mustard, do they? Those are vids that show Muslims working to improve (mainly) the lot of women within Islam. All decidedly PRO-Islam. Try again. And don't ever lie about something I said or put words into my mouth again, you little shit.

And SC, don't apologize for anything. You were right on. Islam gets a pass on VideoSift, and anything critical (TRULY critical) gets attacked immediately by the exact same few people with the exact same dogma and accusations (or implications) of hate-mongering, racism, and bigotry. Then others refuse to comment or upvote for fear of upsetting the resident Muslims. Then again, maybe they're just besotted.

Coping mechanisms... I like that. If any of you are offended by anything I say, just think of it as MY coping mechanism.


EDIT: Everything after "... pass on VideoSift" is MY opinion, not necessarily SC's. Didn't want to to make it look like he stated, or even agreed with, all that.

"And don't ever lie about something I said or put words into my mouth again, you little shit."

Again Fletch you just resort to abuse. Everything that I accuse you of saying you have said. Abuse is the last resort of a desperate man. Grow up, and learn to be civil.

Woah, is this one still active?

So, I've noticed that opinions about Christianity are stronger, since (I'm guessing this is the case) most people sit close to Christianity (US, Europe, Australia). This post applies mostly to these people, and the US specifically. You get a stronger opinion of a religion when it's your door getting knocked on by the mormons... when you pass scientologists offering free "personality tests" in the street... when your own parents deride you and say they'll "pray for you" when you tell them you're different. We know these things, we're tired of them. In the same way, if you go to church once or twice a week or every other week, you see the sense of community, you know the value of your friends, and your moral code is wonderfully accounted for and easy to hold on to... you have faith, good feelings, good times, and good people around you all the time. Then there are these people benefiting every day from the hard work of the good Christians you know (community service or just plain good work) and bitch to their friends about how wrong you are about God, and how naive and stupid you are. It gets old. Tensions get high. You know both sides of the story but you're sick of the debate. You wish people wouldn't bring it up and when they do you either say what you know is true or hide in the corner. No one changes their mind because the whole argument is just a repeat of a repeat of a repeat, something you've made your mind up on inside and out, and will only change with a real introspective moment, not a sermon, religious or otherwise.

Then comes Islam. A vast majority of people were introduced to the Muslim faith on 9/11 via the media and the horror show it portrayed, next to the faces of the hijackers. On one hand, a lot of people are going to immediately say that Islam is bad without really knowing anything about it. On the other hand, since we're so far away from the immediate turmoil and things like we experience at home with Christians, we have the opportunity to stand back and look at the religion from afar. Some of us take this opportunity, some of us don't.

My only point after all of this babbling is that I can see these shared experiences in our discussions. I can see the pain and annoyance, the happiness that comes with understanding. The hate. You can't muffle these things by a law handed down from on high. You can't make people pretend to be civil, or be nice, or not hate and fear.

The only thing we can do is be a community. If you really feel like part of your community, then you ignore the occasional emotional outburst... the occasional disagreement or heated argument. You come together based on your shared activities and experiences. You realize that you're talking to a person, and so you temper your comments a bit. You don't hurt someone on purpose. You realize that the group someone belongs to does not define them completely. You listen, learn, make friends, understand.

I'm quite tired and this is quite rambl-y, but I think I mean to say that we should all treat this like a community and not a random anonymous forum. Every avatar represents a person. Every comment represents a point of view coming from a human being. If we start thinking about things in this way, we might all start getting along better. If we need to set down a bunch of considerations for the way you should behave on here, just to help people think of this as a community and not a drive through, then so be it.

Now go watch a funny, meaningful, or interesting video and relax. There's plenty to choose from, take your pick.

oh my, I've stirred up quite the hornet's nest haven't I? For the record I don't think my comment about the religious disabled guy was that terribly invective. I took a deliberately cheeky stance yes, but I did not go so far as to personally insult the man for whom it should be said a measure of respect for his fortitude and bravery is due (I'd have certainly killed myself if I were to be suddenly found in his predicament) and as my comment suggested I would be loathe to stridently confront such a person on their irrational beliefs. I am obviously an atheist and a skeptic, and as such I think that while people should have every right to believe in whatever nonsense of the day they choose, they do NOT have a right to be irreparably offended to the point of censorious indignation when those beliefs are brought to suffer upon the weight of skeptical inquiry and reason. That said, I think those who have seen my comments will note that while I may certainly be harsh in my criticism at times, I take caution never to descend into ad hominem.

In reply to your comment:
“Godwin's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

i guess it's not a direct comparison, but close enough for me to call it. two thumbs up indeed. heh.”

My memory of GL was hazy - but that *is* a very 'clean' definition of it. My interpretation was that the argument is over once someone calls another such person that. Which is covered by that version of the rule, but is more of an 'ad hominem' interpretation.

BTW, I just came back from a ridiculously early morning church service... but I sifted up the Religious Smackdown sift b/c I thought it was simply funny.

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Going back to the topic itself, the ad hominem attacks are totally uncalled for. I've met gwaan in person and Fletch, you're totally out of line here - cut it out.

Also, Videosift meet-up pics are saved securly on multiple backups.

Which is good, because my desktop's primary hard drive decided to die on me. What the heck! Anyway, my regular computer use will, obviously, resume once I straighten that debacle out.