Pres. Obama: "We had a little bit of a buzz saw this week"

A snippet of the speech Obama gave at a town hall in Elyria, Ohio. Probably worth a listen if you're a demoralized progressive.

1/22/2010
ForgedRealitysays...

This is fucking bullshit. It's time we close our borders and ignore the rest of the world for a while. All this reckless spending of money we don't have certainly is not helping. I can't pay my student loans because everybody is afraid to spend any money, because there is none, which means I can't get hired to do what I went to school for.

Health care is less important than fixing the economy at this point. You can talk about health care all you want, but guess what; nobody can afford it anyway. So how about we stop fucking wasting money we don't have, and printing more to make the money we DO have worth less. How about we get the fuck out of other countries and focus on ourselves for a change, because how the fuck do we expect foreign nations to trust in our ability to fix their problems if we already have more problems than they do?

In other words: FUCK YOU.

rougysays...

>> ^bobknight33:
Thank GOD he has done nothing this year. Health care IS working, It works just fine it only needs a little tweaking. This man is a well educated fool.


Yeah, it works just great except for the millions who can't afford it or who are refused coverage.

Not that you would give a shit.

bobknight33says...

>> ^rougy:
>> ^bobknight33:
Thank GOD he has done nothing this year. Health care IS working, It works just fine it only needs a little tweaking. This man is a well educated fool.

Yeah, it works just great except for the millions who can't afford it or who are refused coverage.
Not that you would give a shit.



People can afford it if they wanted to. Get a high detectable plan and stop buying games and large screen tv. Save you money and stop getting into dept. Sure there are a few million who just can't. let the local/ state help, but to nationalize the whole system is suck a fucked up solution that will make this issue worse. P.S. learn your constitution. There is no provision for health care in the constitution.

dagsays...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

People with your perspective generally haven't had the experience of another healthcare system to compare with. National Healthcare really, really works in other countries around the world and there's no reason why it can't work in the US- if we can just get past the astroturfing, fear-mongering and baseless propagandizing of the insurance companies and big Pharma. >> ^bobknight33:
>> ^rougy:
>> ^bobknight33:
Thank GOD he has done nothing this year. Health care IS working, It works just fine it only needs a little tweaking. This man is a well educated fool.

Yeah, it works just great except for the millions who can't afford it or who are refused coverage.
Not that you would give a shit.


People can afford it if they wanted to. Get a high detectable plan and stop buying games and large screen tv. Save you money and stop getting into dept. Sure there are a few million who just can't. let the local/ state help, but to nationalize the whole system is suck a fucked up solution that will make this issue worse. P.S. learn your constitution. There is no provision for health care in the constitution.

manfromxsays...

Speech = I have good intentions and I like you guys

If you have any problems with what I'm doing please refer back to the above statement.

He's right to point out some of the stupidity in the media though. I'm on board for that part .

bobknight33says...

>> ^dag:
People with your perspective generally haven't had the experience of another healthcare system to compare with. National Healthcare really, really works in other countries around the world and there's no reason why it can't work in the US- if we can just get past the astroturfing, fear-mongering and baseless propagandizing of the insurance companies and big Pharma. >> ^bobknight33:
>> ^rougy:
>> ^bobknight33:
Thank GOD he has done nothing this year. Health care IS working, It works just fine it only needs a little tweaking. This man is a well educated fool.

Yeah, it works just great except for the millions who can't afford it or who are refused coverage.
Not that you would give a shit.


People can afford it if they wanted to. Get a high detectable plan and stop buying games and large screen tv. Save you money and stop getting into dept. Sure there are a few million who just can't. let the local/ state help, but to nationalize the whole system is suck a fucked up solution that will make this issue worse. P.S. learn your constitution. There is no provision for health care in the constitution.



I do slightly agree to a point that heath-care in other countries work. I believe for small countries it is possible to weed out the corrupt officials is an efficient manner. In the USA the Federal Government has yet to run a decent program and when things F up at Democrats point the finger at the Republicans and the Republicans pointing it back the Democrats. We the American people are left with the mess and the ever increasing dept currently the rate of 4 Billion a day that WE the people will have to pay back. Sorry but my bank account can not carry my share of this dept. Can yours? This health care plan is a worse plan that is in place now.

rougysays...

>> ^bobknight33:
>> ^rougy:
>> ^bobknight33:
Thank GOD he has done nothing this year. Health care IS working, It works just fine it only needs a little tweaking. This man is a well educated fool.

Yeah, it works just great except for the millions who can't afford it or who are refused coverage.
Not that you would give a shit.


People can afford it if they wanted to. Get a high detectable plan and stop buying games and large screen tv. Save you money and stop getting into dept. Sure there are a few million who just can't. let the local/ state help, but to nationalize the whole system is suck a fucked up solution that will make this issue worse. P.S. learn your constitution. There is no provision for health care in the constitution.


You are so ignorant it's painful.

You're a Tea Bagger, aren't you?

entr0pysays...

>> ^ForgedReality:
This is fucking bullshit. It's time we close our borders and ignore the rest of the world for a while. All this reckless spending of money we don't have certainly is not helping. I can't pay my student loans because everybody is afraid to spend any money, because there is none, which means I can't get hired to do what I went to school for.
Health care is less important than fixing the economy at this point. You can talk about health care all you want, but guess what; nobody can afford it anyway. So how about we stop fucking wasting money we don't have, and printing more to make the money we DO have worth less. How about we get the fuck out of other countries and focus on ourselves for a change, because how the fuck do we expect foreign nations to trust in our ability to fix their problems if we already have more problems than they do?
In other words: FUCK YOU.


It seems almost like you've been convinced by our national debt that America is a poor country. We're not, we're the richest country, both per capita and in total. If anyone in the world can afford to give good reliable health-care to all of it's citizens, it's us. It's all a matter of our priorities.

And yes, the federal government can do more than one thing at a time. There's no reason that creating jobs should somehow be at the expense of needed health-care reform.

Besides, health-care reform, if done properly, would cost us nothing. It would only cost those who unjustly profit while providing nothing useful.

Truckchasesays...

I love how the people that condone "closing the borders" and "focusing on the economy" are the same folks that fully support the idea of exporting cheap labor to support the Wal-Marts of the world. All this from the same political spectrum... Maybe the republicans are onto something; block all real change, promote destructive change, and then blame it on the "progressives".

Cake, eat, too?

Edit: and this is really rubbing me the wrong way when I think about it... "ForgedReality" (appropriate name based on your comments BTW) please take the time to watch this :

http://documentaries.videosift.com/video/What-is-money

A president can't simply "fix the economy". This problem is systematic, and it would take a nationwide understanding of the inability to sustain infinite growth to adopt the type of sweeping changes that would actually "fix" our economy. That's not to say it can't be done, which is why I'm recommending that anyone reading this post who hasn't done so already to watch the linked video. It's only by seeking out truth that we can impact our government system for good. It's only by expecting good that we will receive it.

I think it's very important to understand that the government is something we created because we want it. Let's start treating it that way. Fear isn't a platform, it's a human motivator. Once we learn to tell the difference we'll all make better decisions.

volumptuoussays...

>> ^ForgedReality:
Hey cool! I get downvotes for agreeing with everyone. I <3 you Videosift!


I downvoted you because you have zero grasp of the way an economy works.

If you think health care expenditures in this country have nothing to do with the economy, you need to go back to school.

blankfistsays...

Closing our borders isn't a good solution. I say open them. We are a melting pot. Our economy can only do better with more people coming here to work and add to it.

People who want to close borders want to do so mainly because they don't want to pay for immigrants who use the welfare state. I also agree with that. The solution then is to end (or strongly curtail) welfare.

HCR will add to welfare, thus bigotry will escalate when people are forced to pay even more for immigrants.

NetRunnersays...

^ I have to give you props. It takes guts to essentially say that we better do what the bigots want, because otherwise bigots will be mad, and do more bigoted stuff.

Bonus points for also implying that HCR is promoting racism. Seriously, good propaganda. You're better than the pros on Fox news.

blankfistsays...

^Haha. I didn't say racism. I said bigotry. Nationalism is bigotry in my eyes.

No one is saying do what bigots want, but HCR will create more bigots-- Oh, I'm sorry, nationalists. You have to be a realist about this, NR. The whole "close our borders" argument stems largely from immigrants abusing the welfare system. You think we shouldn't consider this while making policy? Come on, climb off your partisan horse for just a second.

The "close our borders" mob is gathering people daily, and even Libertarians who were once for open borders are claiming we should build walls and electric fences around the perimeter of the US to keep out people they'll be forced to pay for. It's a very real thing to fear, I think. I don't want this to be a closed country where we no longer accept the tired, the poor, the huddled masses.

gwiz665says...

Where have you been? The US haven't taken poor, tired or huddled masses in since Korea. Only rich, well educated and/or snow-white.
>> ^blankfist:
I don't want this to be a closed country where we no longer accept the tired, the poor, the huddled masses.

Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

I don't get why people say Obama is a great speaker. He isn't. A great speaker is someone who makes a speech that everybody can appreciate and who can make the audience feel like he understands or at least empathizes with them. Obama doesn't do that. Obama's speeches are halting, staccato, and bland. Every time he tries to sound 'fired up' he comes across as cringe-worthily unconvincing. The speeches are filled with catch phrases, nothing-isms, and vapidity. He isn't a 'great orator' at all. He is - in fact - flat, uninspiring, and weak. I was no fan of Bill Clinton, but Clinton was 10X the 'orator' that Obama is. If I was to make a rhetorical comparison, I would say that Obama is more like George Bush (I) than anyone else. Can we please stop with the 'great speech' and 'what a speaker' crap? I've heard great speakers, and Obummer is no great speaker.

enochsays...

1.the health care debate is a moral argument not a fiscal one but those with corporate agendas have turned it into a fiscal argument.they will win that argument.
2.the term "mandate" is being bantered about more and more by politicians and less about "single payer".translation:"prepared to get fucked...hard".
3.historically the end result has always been the working class tax payer who bears the brunt of corporate malfeasance.my opinion is they cannot bear much more.
4.for god and country has always been the battle cry to get citizens to act in a way that is ultimately NOT in their best interest.religion and nationalism has always been the propaganda tool choice of those in power to get YOU to do THEIR bidding.in the end..YOU lose.
5."dey took our JOBS" is just a knee jerk reaction by those who have bought the malarky that somehow jose from mexico took their job when in reality it was the company you worked for who sent it to india or china.blame the company not jose.
6.the US was considered the land of opportunity for years,and for years this country earned that title but when we went to a financial economy that all started to change.now we are all just wage slaves trying to do the best we can and it is in the best interests of large multinational corporations to have you believe that jose has somehow lessened your lot in life.he didnt but they sure as hell did.
7.labor unions back was broke during the reagan years.they were portrayed as evil and,,.shivers,,,communist.how is that working out for everybody now?

my point for these little nuggets?
that this has been happening at a pretty steady pace and we were all asleep.a slow tinkering over the past 90 years,sped up in the 70's..and the bush years accelerated immensely.
i like obama,seems a nice sort and is a talented speaker but politically he is cornered and without some serious growth of balls there is little he will be able to do.
he will deliver the well-meaning speeches but pay attention..in the end it will be the corporation who dictate how and what this country will do.
pay attention to that word "mandate".

Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

1.the health care debate is a moral argument

Morality is a word that applies to the freedom based decisions of principled individuals. Morality is not a word that applies to compelled requirements of a profligate, collectivist government.

3.historically the end result has always been the working class tax payer who bears the brunt of corporate malfeasance.

The people pay for 100% of government malfeasance. The government's budget is big enough to swallow 'corporate' budgets for breakfast. Is not then wiser to attack government as the greater evil to the middle class? Government generates no wealth, produces no goods, and provides only a handful of services that are poorly managed, sub-standard in quality, and are on the brink of financial collapse due to graft & incompetence. The housing bubble is chump change compared to the government bubble.

5."dey took our JOBS" is just a knee jerk reaction by those who have bought the malarky that somehow jose from mexico took their job when in reality it was the company you worked for who sent it to india or china.blame the company not jose.

No. Blame the government which (by taxation, over-regulation, & unions) make it financially undesirable to operate domestically. It would be really nice if government gave incentives to companies such as tax breaks for employing U.S. workers. But government doesn't do that. Government is more likely to punch corporate America in the gonads as a method of getting votes. Either that or government greases BAD laws for companies so that government can profit itself.

Americans need to learn a harsh reality. Unskilled labor is unskilled for a reason. The jobs leaving the U.S. leave because they only need a handful of skilled professionals and a huge pile of unskilled labor. If you can hire 10,000 unskilled foreign laborers for the same price as 100 U.S. unskilled laborers then the decision isn't very hard. If you want those jobs to stay domestic, then you either have to lower their pay or give the company enough incentive to pay the higher labor costs.

7.labor unions back was broke during the reagan years.they were portrayed as evil how is that working out for everybody now?

Broke labor's back? Pht - we WISH. Thanks to big labor (a government offshoot) we have lost our steel industry, and are well on the way to losing automotive as well. Big labor has also all but annihilated the quality of U.S. teaching.

obama,seems a nice sort and is a talented speaker

If so, then he has not yet demonstrated it. I think people are confusing the term 'talented' with 'articulate'. Obama can give a speech without mangling as many words as Bush Jr. But that's mostly because he's symbiotically grafted to his teleprompter. But he isn't inspiring, uplifting, motivating, or exciting. He's as dull as dirt. So yeah he can make his speeches on a technical sense. But that doesn't make him talented. It makes him robotic.

ForgedRealitysays...

Oh my goodness. I guess I misspoke. I didn't literally mean CLOSE our borders. That would be unthinkable. I meant that we need to stay the fuck out of other countries' business. We move in, start/join wars, take over, just because they have resources we want. That's incredulously costly; and not only monetarily so.

I also understand that health care costs the country to keep running. But honestly, do any of you think health care is the reason we're here in this recession today? Of course not. There are MUCH LARGER causes, but we seem to keep thinking it's okay to point the finger somewhere else and not even consider the real players. They get a slap on the wrist and then just quietly brushed under the rug.

How about reforming Wall Street and banking practices? How about regulating the fucking fed so they don't keep making loans that our government will never pay back? How about putting tighter restrictions on inflation? How about getting all the criminals out of positions of power? This shit's been building up for a LONG time, and there's almost nowhere that things haven't been allowed to go out of control.

Housing is another example I can think of. I mean really? You're going to charge $1500/mo for a two bedroom motherfucking duplex? Holy shit. Costs are only going up and income is going down. It's like this country operates on a motherfucking mob mentality. Strangle the guy beneath you while everybody pays up to the guy at the top, and he's living sweet while everybody else languishes because they were too honest to break the law.

manfromxsays...

I'm in Canada and although I love our health care simply because it means no worries I can also appreciate the conservative American point of view.

Simply put, the free market system for health worked fine in America until the 60's. The government hasn't exactly shown how competent they are lately so how can anyone fault Americans for not wanting the Government to run this as well. If your kid always dings up your car when you lend it to him, why would you keep giving him the keys?

It seems strange no one wants to find ways to curtail what the insurance companies are doing and what pharmaceutical companies are charging.

In a society where competition is good and monopolies are bad why then do drug companies get a monopoly on their product for so long. Especially since after R&D these things are pretty cheap to make.

Americans are getting boned and Obama's plan may be well intentioned, but I don't see how he can fix it with Government spending over personal spending. To be honest, those two are one and the same eventually.

rougysays...

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:< br />I don't get why people say Obama is a great speaker. He isn't. A great speaker is someone who makes a speech that everybody can appreciate and who can make the audience feel like he understands or at least empathizes with them. Obama doesn't do that. Obama's speeches are halting, staccato, and bland. Every time he tries to sound 'fired up' he comes across as cringe-worthily unconvincing. The speeches are filled with catch phrases, nothing-isms, and vapidity. He isn't a 'great orator' at all. He is - in fact - flat, uninspiring, and weak. I was no fan of Bill Clinton, but Clinton was 10X the 'orator' that Obama is. If I was to make a rhetorical comparison, I would say that Obama is more like George Bush (I) than anyone else. Can we please stop with the 'great speech' and 'what a speaker' crap? I've heard great speakers, and Obummer is no great speaker.


Who do you consider a great speaker?

The Sham-wow boy?

Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

Who do you consider a great speaker?

Great speakers? Ronald Reagan, JFK, MLKJ. I'd even go so far as to say Bill Clinton was a good public speaker. Obama is an 'adequate' speaker. He does a workman job. He isn't a BAD public speaker, but he's definitely no maven like some people keep saying.

I picked out the man-child's speech register after hearing him only once. Listen to him. Obama has a clearly predictable and generally boring cadance - almost like a 'tide'. He ... PAUSES ... and then he ... CONTINUES to speak for a second before he ... PAUSES again and keeps on rolling and ... ROLLING until he ... STOPS again and ... FINISHES! You can almost set your watch by this little routine of his.

This is an artifact not of rhetorical prowess. It is an artifact of his dependance on his teleprompter. He is pausing and giving the prompter time to scroll up what he's saying next. Then he rushes though a few words to 'catch up' and then he ... PAUSES again, hitting emphasis on whatever word where he picks up his speech on. Not only is he totally dependant on his teleprompter, but he isn't even really very good at using it. Other speakers can use a teleprompter and sound natural. Obama sounds like he's fighting with it.

And don't get me started on his stupid head swing. Watching his head swap from teleprompter screen to teleprompter screen in a speech is like watching a game of tennis. Or maybe it is more like watching a lighthouse. Anyway - the guy just isn't very natural when he's moving his head. Bleh. The point with a teleprompter is to make it look like you AREN'T using it. Obama's method draws attention to his mechanical delivery. He gets the words out fine. He just looks and sounds forced and stilted doing it.

Simply put, the free market system for health worked fine in America until the 60's

BINGO! Nice to finally meet someone with historical perspective. Too many Americans are too young and ignorant of history and fact. Alas it takes a Canadian to point out the bleeding obvious to some of our youth. American health care was screwed up by GOVERNMENT. Ted Kennedy specifically was the one who passed his stupid HMO law which (basically) CREATED the insurance industry in America as we know it today. Up until that point, consumers dealt with doctors directly out of their own pockets. And guess what? When you take middle-men out of the picture, capitalism works just fine. Health care was affordable. Plans existed for catastrophic care, and they were easily affordable by almost everyone. The only thing HMO's accomplished was totally screwing up the relationship between providers and buyers. The solution to America's HC issue is not more government. The solution is LESS.

JenniferBurgersays...

>> ^bobknight33:
>> ^rougy:
>> ^bobknight33:
Thank GOD he has done nothing this year. Health care IS working, It works just fine it only needs a little tweaking. This man is a well educated fool.

Yeah, it works just great except for the millions who can't afford it or who are refused coverage.
Not that you would give a shit.


People can afford it if they wanted to. Get a high detectable plan and stop buying games and large screen tv. Save you money and stop getting into dept. Sure there are a few million who just can't. let the local/ state help, but to nationalize the whole system is suck a fucked up solution that will make this issue worse. P.S. learn your constitution. There is no provision for health care in the constitution.


ha! this from the guy that's making excuses for why he can't pay his student loans.
(it's the government's fault)

tell me--what does hypocrisy taste like?

Doc_Msays...

>> ^manfromx:
Why then do drug companies get a monopoly on their product for so long. Especially since after R&D these things are pretty cheap to make.


I can answer that one. First, patent law. Second, a single cancer drug, from the ground to the pharmacy, can cost as much as $500,000,000. ... and many of the drugs fail in trials.

rougysays...

>> ^Doc_M:
>> ^manfromx:
Why then do drug companies get a monopoly on their product for so long. Especially since after R&D these things are pretty cheap to make.

I can answer that one. First, patent law. Second, a single cancer drug, from the ground to the pharmacy, can cost as much as $500,000,000. ... and many of the drugs fail in trials.


I think that most of the costs for research are done in government labs and then the successes are just flat-out given to the drug companies.

Pharma is screwing America rotten.

Doc_Msays...

>> ^rougy:
>> ^Doc_M:
>> ^manfromx:
Why then do drug companies get a monopoly on their product for so long. Especially since after R&D these things are pretty cheap to make.

I can answer that one. First, patent law. Second, a single cancer drug, from the ground to the pharmacy, can cost as much as $500,000,000. ... and many of the drugs fail in trials.

I think that most of the costs for research are done in government labs and then the successes are just flat-out given to the drug companies.
Pharma is screwing America rotten.


You're partially right. The foundational science behind the drugs is often done at the university level, but the expense I quoted is that which is spent by pharm or biotech companies. Money spent before that level isn't really estimable. It does irk basic scientists that they don't always benefit monetarily from research that leads to these drugs, but without the company itself, the drug wouldn't be made... Try getting a 500 million dollar grant in an academic lab... Venture capitalists are far more willing to make enormous investments in risky drug development endeavors.

I should say however that some drugs DO come out of academia. In those cases, the scientists involved get the patent (along with the university); they get some cash out of that at least.

Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

And leave us not forget that the reason it costs these companies so much money to make even a single drug is - that's right! - GOVERNMENT. The FDA regulations & requirements for drug companies are ridiculous. Yes you want drugs to be safe and tested. But the process today is so labrynthine and difficult that it is almost impossible to get a drug out of testing without around 20 YEARS (!!!) of testing. As a guy who works as a statistician for clinical tests, I can tell you that even small tests are not cheap. Every drug that goes through the FDA chipper/shredder must have literally dozens of large scale longitudinal tests performed. And if the results don't satisfy even ONE of those bazillions of FDA rules then back to the lab you go to start all over again.

You want to know why drugs are so expensive in America? It isn't because "Big Pharm" is trying to rape you. It is because they are trying desperately to recover from the raping they got from government. You want to drop drug prices by 50 to 75% in a day? Abolish the FDA.

KnivesOutsays...

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
And leave us not forget that the reason it costs these companies so much money to make even a single drug is - that's right! - GOVERNMENT. The FDA regulations & requirements for drug companies are ridiculous. Yes you want drugs to be safe and tested. But the process today is so labrynthine and difficult that it is almost impossible to get a drug out of testing without around 20 YEARS (!!!) of testing. As a guy who works as a statistician for clinical tests, I can tell you that even small tests are not cheap. Every drug that goes through the FDA chipper/shredder must have literally dozens of large scale longitudinal tests performed. And if the results don't satisfy even ONE of those bazillions of FDA rules then back to the lab you go to start all over again.
You want to know why drugs are so expensive in America? It isn't because "Big Pharm" is trying to rape you. It is because they are trying desperately to recover from the raping they got from government. You want to drop drug prices by 50 to 75% in a day? Abolish the FDA.


Statistician on clinical trials? You've just admitted to being a professional liar. Also, you've just admitted to the source of all your bias.

All your bias are belong to us!

rougysays...

>> ^Doc_M:
>> ^rougy:
>> ^Doc_M:
>> ^manfromx:
Why then do drug companies get a monopoly on their product for so long. Especially since after R&D these things are pretty cheap to make.

I can answer that one. First, patent law. Second, a single cancer drug, from the ground to the pharmacy, can cost as much as $500,000,000. ... and many of the drugs fail in trials.

I think that most of the costs for research are done in government labs and then the successes are just flat-out given to the drug companies.
Pharma is screwing America rotten.

I should say however that some drugs DO come out of academia. In those cases, the scientists involved get the patent (along with the university); they get some cash out of that at least.


I'm pretty sure that MOST drugs are developed with government programs or with government funding to begin with, and then literally handed over to the pharma companies.

Forgive me for not posting a source, but that was a big issue from as far back as 2000 when Nader was running, and that was basically one of his platforms: to lower drug costs because most of the R&D was already being done, or paid for, by the government to begin with.

Here's a snip:

There's a new drug called Taxol to fight ovarian cancer. That drug was produced by a grant of $31 million of taxpayer money through the National Institutes of Health, right through the clinical testing process. The formula was then given away to the Bristol-Myers Squibb company. No royalties were paid to the taxpayer. There was no restraint on the price. Charges now run $10,000 to $15,000 per patient for a series of treatments. If the patients can't pay, they go on Medicaid, and the taxpayer pays at the other end of the cycle, too.
(source)

Doc_Msays...

I have a feeling Nader didn't have all the facts. Only an idiot would hand over a drug without patenting the formula. I know at least that academic scientists and universities, at least, always patent their drug formulas, and they're the ones that do the majority of research by a landslide. I don't know about the Taxol situation, but it's more likely an exception if it is even that. I've got a couple collegues with drug patents and if I asked them if they would have been willing to give up the formulas and trial data to a company with no benefit to themselves, they'd laugh.
However, if that research he's referring to was done AT the NIH or another purely gov't research center, than I don't know. They might have different rules. I'll ask around.

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