i love that picture of "canada"

I've largely opted out of this one. I'm not an economist or an expert in european law, so I haven't the knowledge to make an intelligent choice.

I am somewhat naturally inclined toward remaining: there was never a trace of patriotism in my soul, and the european courts at least have done some service toward protecting british freedoms, both from our government and from those corporations who'd like to own it. The common market's a good principle, and I don't have anything but admiration for the idea of a european superpower to oppose the twin fascisms of the US and China.

I never thought I'd grow up to care about immigration, but it turns out I don't like seeing millions of social conservatives marching into western europe from lesser cultures, pushing back against the progress we've made in recent decades.

There's another dimension to that question in the UK, which I don't think is well understood externally: where absolutely anyone with a european passport is allowed permanent residence here, the government keeps the figures down to appease its more xenophobic voters by making it practically impossible for those outside the EU. So, every year we tell thousands of highly skilled, highly intelligent prospective immigrants to just fuck off. Good policy.

In any event, I don't endorse unjust systems like democracy, and wouldn't vote in any referendum.

I'd chime in with knowledge but the fact is nobody in the UK really knows if it's a good idea or not, and the vast majority don't care. Sadly there's a really loud minority who won't shut up about the bloody thing.

In the end I'm fairly sure we'll stay in, but the turnout is going to be super-low so there's a bit of uncertainty.

Do you really think an 11% immigrant population (for the UK) is going to change social policy? Especially when many of these immigrants aren't religious or socially conservative? This seems like one of those things that people have said enough that it becomes accepted as the truth ...

As someone on the other side of the world, it doesn't really bother me. If Ireland was to have a similar poll, I would certainly vote in favour of staying in the EU, if only so that I still have the option of working in Europe at some point (unlikely as that might be).

But I have recently discovered a fool-proof way of deciding any issue. Basically if UKIP are for it, I'm agin it!

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Saturday, June 18th, 2016 1:31pm PDT - promote requested by Mordhaus.

Leave campaign comes across as very nationalist, even jingoist. I think immigration is an issue, but it has been badly overblown. It's all a bit too "Make Britain Great again" for my tastes.

The freeze frame at 2:12 says:

*the number changes depending on which source you're reading from, but it's roughly around that

Also, did you know:
"Britain" comes from the latin: "Britanus Denticus" - which translates as "realm of ecellent teeth and outstanding dentists". We have excellent dentistry in Britain. It's right up there with our world-famous cuisine and love of public speaking.

Shall we get back to the video?

We have the enormous misfortune in the UK to live in a democracy; how could it not? As more people from, effectively, the past enter the country the progress we've been making will be slowed or reversed.

Western, or probably more specifically north-western europe is that special region in the world where religion is actually dying off. More people in the UK are non-religious than religious. Christians in this country finally have the decency to be ashamed of their faith, and any extravagant public expression of belief is met with contempt from believers and non-believers alike - look at the minor scandal created when Tony Blair admitted to being a catholic, and engaging in such outlandish behaviours as prayer.

Orthodox christians from easten europe, and refugees from even less civilised areas, haven't had the opportunity to develop the same attitude. As they settle in their nasty little insular communities, the danger is that they're in a position to act as voting blocs that damage public policy.

Anyway, I'm sure it's heartening for eric to discover that basically none of us has any idea either.

@gorillaman

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

I still just don't think at a fraction of 11% it's worth worrying about. Certainly not enough to actually alter social law. You look at France (also at 11% immigrant) and if anything there's been overreaction with the bans on face covering.

I'm sure the UK could do more to encourage assimilation. A basic part of that would simply be making a better effort of pushing migrants into training / jobs if they're not immediately able to, which forces you to adapt to the country's culture and mores. Settling migrants in poor areas with often high existing unemployment rates is a terrible way to integrate migrants and also naturally stirs up hate among the local population.

Groups of migrants will tend to congregate when they arrive but even if some of these initially end up on welfare, there's always a strong financial incentive to become employed which will force them to integrate. Meanwhile, we know that even if the migrants are religious, their children and further descendants are much less likely to be.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the referendum is not legally binding, is it?

So what happens if the plebs vote in favor of Brexit?

Brussels dispatches men in finely-tailored suits to London, with goodies in their suitcases. Politicians become supremely motivated to convince the plebs of the wrongness of their views -- or they take their continental brethren as an example and just ignore the plebs altogether.

Jokes aside, it might very well be a vote to leave a sinking ship.

Anyone here really think the EU can survive the groupthink-induced fixation on austerity? Anyone seen the economics data coming from Italy lately? Greece? Spain? France? Anyone think Italy can be in a single currency with Germany under German control? Anyone think the EU can survive the fall of the Euro or the departure of significant member countries?

The way I see it, the EU cannot survive economic orthodoxy. Greece is dying, Italy is bleeding from every orifice. Even as a strong supporter of a unified Europe, including Russia(!), I cannot support the EU in its current form -- it's rotten to the core and dominated by groupthink.

And with all that in mind, the fact still remains that the EU kept the Tories somewhat in check in many regards. What a disheartening situation...

There just doesnt seem to be enough to be gained either by leaving or by staying in at this stage. A lose-lose situation.

Britain has avoided adopting Schengen rules and the Euro, so there is little it can complain about regarding the EU, really.

There is also little to cheer for, the Euro and Schengen area are not working as intended, rules are bent and broken at will, the "democratic" political process is at best incomprehensible, but apparently skewed toward unelected clerks applying social engineering solutions to imaginary problems.

Really leaving (not bindingly decided in this referendum) would lead to short term chaos and economic loss for both the EU and Britain. With what long term gains, exactly?

Democracy should be used to pick representatives who make responsible decisions, not to vote about what mood people are in on a given day.

“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.

Tony Benn said that. If the only choice I have is to leave now or never again, then I opt to leave a non- (possibly anti-) democratic system.

I'd stay for the protection it gives us from the Tories, but then I'd be making a lifetime choice based on a 4 year (or less!) problem. I'd stay for "togetherness" but that is just a nice word to describe a bunch of people that intentionally humiliated Greece for the sake of flexing muscle, dooming them to non-recovery for a pound of flesh.

*related John Oliver seems to have an opinion

John Oliver - Brexit has been added as a related post - related requested by eric3579.

As far as I know, you're right in that the referendum is not legally binding.

All the points you raise are valid, but I feel like no-one is voting to leave based on that. From what I've seen in the media and on social media, the "leave" camp are just basically using it as an excuse to be racist.

Shhh! The Southern Provinces haven't figured it all out yet.

Won't they be surprised when we veto Trump's election!

So what do we do? Leave and pretend there is more than 30 miles of water between us and France? Europe's fate will surely have of a massive impact on the UK regardless of whether we call ourselves part of it or not. No man is an island, even when that man is, err, a country that is an island...

Anyhoo. Maybe London will hold a referendum on whether it wants to be part of the UnUnited Kingdom.

My comment was rather egocentric in nature. Few countries have the means to upset the balance of power within the EU and a (vote for) Brexit might just be the least horrific way of poking the EU. Next down the line would be a Le Pen-administration in France, which most people would rather avoid. Or some unforseen poltical kerfuffle in Italy.

Bad options, all of them. But austerity will lead to even worse outcomes, so German hegemony must be curbed and broken -- or the EU as a whole must be reduced to countries whose economies work the same parasitic way.

The best of all options, of course, would be political change in Germany, away from this anal fixation on austerity. But looking at our parliament, I see 630 seats, 566 of which belong to parties in support of austerity. So no, not gonna happen.

My hopes, as always, are on the French people. Recent actions have made me hopeful that they will once again come to our rescue.

Hmm. I'm not sure Britain leaving the EU would have the effect you desire. Who is to say Germany won't simply double down? After all, if we leave it will have less to do with Greece being thrown under a bus, and more do with migrant camps in Calais.

Don't destroy my hopes, mate! I'm getting a severe case of the assteroids just listening to our politicians talk economics.

There will be no change from within. We are Untertanen, loyal subjects, the lot of us.

Holy crap, it's looking like they might just pull the trigger on this insanity.

For the record, in the end I didn't vote to leave.