I can't wait for shinyblurry to come and tell us why vicarious redemption isn't immoral. Or how vicarious redemption isn't at all like scapegoating (assuming scapegoating is bad). Or how the term "vicarious redemption" doesn't really apply to Jesus (assuming vicarious redemption is bad).

Basically, anything to do with Christianity is good. And any and all criticism of it is bad.

^ That's what I can't wait for shinyblurry to come and do.

And quote scripture. That's my favorite.

Agh! Now shiny has nothing left to do! You just stole his schtick.

I mean, we all know what he's going to say... he says the same thing each time. Nothing really new for him to add.

Huh... what's the point of him posting here again?

Sure, sure... free speech... but what's the point?

What he says is dogma, what we say is heresy... round n' round we go.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Well if you're going to summon @shinyblurry - you need the right incantation. Mecca lecca high, mecca hiney ho!>> ^shuac:

I can't wait for shinyblurry to come and tell us why vicarious redemption isn't immoral. Or how vicarious redemption isn't at all like scapegoating (assuming scapegoating is bad). Or how the term "vicarious redemption" doesn't really apply to Jesus (assuming vicarious redemption is bad).
Basically, anything to do with Christianity is good. And any and all criticism of it is bad.
^ That's what I can't wait for shinyblurry to come and do.
And quote scripture. That's my favorite.

I just got called in to do a furnace repair a this guy's house, well... shit.

Do new atheists have to pretend this kind of awkward parody preached only to the converted is actually funny the way that fundamentalists have to pretend Christian stand-up is?

Starting with with

(Christian theology) ⇒ (humans:God as pedestrian:random homeowner)

2 Peter 3:3

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

What I say here, I say out of love, in hopes that God would have mercy on you. I say this because you have no fear of Him, and no sense of the coming judgement, and because you mock God out of ignorance, not knowing that by rejecting Jesus Christ you are condemned already.

Jesus was not a scapegoat. He laid down His life, willingly, to take the punishment that you and I deserve. He paid the price for our sins, paid it in His blood; He was bruised for our inequities, and pierced for our transgressions. He died so that you and I could be forgiven for our sins and to give to us eternal life. He did what He did out love, love for us, that even while we drove in the nails, He loved us.

I speak to a valley of dry bones, and it is a miracle that you would hear the gospel and believe. You live in a fallen world and you don't realize it. Realize what your conscience tells you; you have lied, you have cheated, you have stolen, you have murdered, you have lusted, you have mocked, you have dishonored, and because of these things, the wrath of God abides on you. No sin is worth what you are facing. Wake up and choose life, and He will forgive you.

Matthew 5:30

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

And what have you been doing lately with your right hand, eh shiny(Or are you a lefty)?

You sure get a "bone" preaching to us "fallen" folk it'd seem... God sees ALL, including your repetitive sins of Onan.

>> ^shinyblurry:

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


So cutting off whole parts of the body is ok, but you go to hell for this:
Lev.19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

(I especially like the "I am the LORD." at the end, as if that makes the whole reason behind the rule clear.)
Do not walk around with your mouth open: I am TheGenk. Yep, that really helps

>> ^shinyblurry:

2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


All the other stuff aside. Are we supposed to take this to mean that somehow scoffing at Christianity is a new thing? Like somehow the end times are upon us because more people than ever are turning their noses? Because that's absolutely not true. (the scoffing part)

Don't throw food away! I am the luxury_pie.

Hey that's fun!

I have a pink unicorn that farts prayers, incantations, and tarot readings. She can read your palm too.

>> ^shinyblurry:
Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


So if I sin with every part of my body except my dick and then chop it off, does that mean a dismembered dick will be floating around heaven when I die?

mmmmmmmmm... bibley!>> ^dag:

Well if you're going to summon @shinyblurry - you need the right incantation. Mecca lecca high, mecca hiney ho!>> ^shuac:
I can't wait for shinyblurry to come and tell us why vicarious redemption isn't immoral. Or how vicarious redemption isn't at all like scapegoating (assuming scapegoating is bad). Or how the term "vicarious redemption" doesn't really apply to Jesus (assuming vicarious redemption is bad).
Basically, anything to do with Christianity is good. And any and all criticism of it is bad.
^ That's what I can't wait for shinyblurry to come and do.
And quote scripture. That's my favorite.

So, one of the guys trying to spread the faith back then kinda realized the whole dogma looked really silly, sometimes even despicable to people outside its own tautology. He knew that some of those people would mock its followers. To make sure the followers didn't listen to the mockers, wake up, and leave the religion, this writer included a line in his instructions predicting this mockery, making it sound like prophesy realized whenever it happened, strengthening the believer's faith. That's real genius. Seriously. Mad props to this "Peter" guy.

And there have been scoffers for the last 2,000 years, so when exactly are the "last days", again?>> ^shinyblurry:

2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

No one here "rejecting" Jesus. Just rejecting morons.

>> ^Payback:

No one here "rejecting" Jesus. Just rejecting morons.


I haven't been rejecting them, I've just been using the ignore function of the site. Makes it's a little confusing when people quote those who shall not be named, so I encourage more people to use that mighty ignore button.

Which is in the bottom right hand corner below each post a person makes.

Bible quotes. The resort of an empty mind.

I believe Religion is Poison and only Spirituality will lead to any kind of human enlightenment. Just because I'm not Christian doesn't mean I'm an Atheist, and I don't personally believe being Agnostic is a bad thing. I'm also a Scientist at heart so I can't believe in any one Religion without proof but that doesn't mean God isn't there we're just not smart enough to warrant his attention or find his location, that's all.

Even Einstein sought proof of God.

So how does this work, exactly? Jesus is paying the price for our sins.. A price set and collected by his own father? God makes the rules here, right?

So god decided that because people did not do what he wanted then they should go to hell forever. But wait! God has a plan.. Send Jesus to earth for a bit, let him die then bring him back up to heaven. Debts settled!

Though, I'm still going to hell anyway, so I kinda don't see the point in that plan..

Someone explain.
>> ^shinyblurry:
Jesus was not a scapegoat. He laid down His life, willingly, to take the punishment that you and I deserve. He paid the price for our sins, paid it in His blood; He was bruised for our inequities, and pierced for our transgressions. He died so that you and I could be forgiven for our sins and to give to us eternal life. He did what He did out love, love for us, that even while we drove in the nails, He loved us.

It means the last dispensation, which is an indeterminate amount of time in which the affairs of the world are brought to a close. Scoffing is nothing new, no, but it certainly has grown to an epic proportion today. There are many signs though that these are the last days, such as the reformation of Israel as a nation after 2000 years.

>> ^Ryjkyj:

1 Corinthians 1:18-19

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1 Corinthians 1:21

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

The foolishness of God is wiser than mans wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than mans strength. In essence, that God has set the way of His salvation at odds against all of the knowledge and wisdom of man, to show the utter futility of mans thoughts and deeds.

>> ^messenger:

Religion is poison, and unfortunately a large part of the church has become a mere religion, but that isn't what Christianity was in the beginning. Christianity is about a man who claimed to be God, who came to Earth to take away the sin of the world. A man who proved it when He rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven to sit at the right hand of power. What Christianity is about is having a personal and experiential relationship with the Creator of the Universe, being forgiven for your sins, and being adopted into the family of God as a son. It is about having the right to call God your Father. It is about unity, and family. It is about love. When you become a Christian, you become a new creature in Christ, being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and transformed and regenerated.

Enlightenment through spirituality is attempting to make the imperfect perfect. It is trying to take a shattered piece of glass and glue it back together. It is trying to fix an undefined problem with an unknown solution. Jesus told us what the problem is, which is sin. That we've all done wrong things and transgressed Gods laws, and we need to repent of those things and seek Gods forgiveness. That we are living in a fallen world with a corrupt nature due to this and that sickness and death was not always the true order of things.

Jesus Christ is the only one to solve the problem. He defeated death on the cross and made the way for every person to receive eternal life. The solution is not to try to repair a broken spirit and heart, it is to receive a new spirit and heart from the only perfect man who ever lived. To be enlightened you must be born again. You can only be born again by the Spirit of God who comes to dwell within you. You need to be washed clean, so draw near to the fountain of living water. Pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness of sins, and to be your Lord and Savior, and you will never thirst again.

>> ^Auger8:

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Thanks to Shiny and others for keeping the Sift from being a belief choir. I for one, value a diverse set of opinions - as long as they're true beliefs that people stand behind. I believe SB is who he says he is.

"If you seek sincerely, you shall find."

Such words have the potential for great harm...

If you know you have sincerely searched and not found, then on the word of a christian you have proven to yourself that god does not exist.

The alternative being "If god doesn't speak to you, you are dishonest and insincere." This is potentially harmful. Do not waste your life seeking the acceptance of bigots. Do not accept the guilt that such words use to manipulate you. You know your own mind, and no one can tell you differently.

>> ^shinyblurry:


Jesus was not a scapegoat. He laid down His life, willingly, to take the punishment that you and I deserve. He paid the price for our sins, paid it in His blood; He was bruised for our inequities, and pierced for our transgressions. He died so that you and I could be forgiven for our sins and to give to us eternal life. He did what He did out love, love for us, that even while we drove in the nails, He loved us.


So let me get this straight: God sent himself to earth so that he could sacrifice himself to himself so as to appease himself into changing a rule that he had made himself?

shinyblurry, you're such a geek Pulling out relevant bible quotes on demand.

It reminds me of sports commentators: "The last time that happened was when the Meercats defeated the Tunafish in 1974!".

This ain't his first rodeo.>> ^L0cky:

shinyblurry, you're such a geek Pulling out relevant bible quotes on demand.
It reminds me of sports commentators: "The last time that happened was when the Meercats defeated the Tunafish in 1974!".

You've really surprised me here. Could you expand on this? How was Christianity once not a religion? It's got a god figure, tenets of faith, imposed moral rules, ceremony, scripture, mythology, dogmatism, and always has. How could that be defined as not a religion?>> ^shinyblurry:

Religion is poison

My problem (or one of them) with accepting that is that on a scale of one to ten, the "scoffing" done nowadays seems like a two compared to the scoffing done by Islam during the crusades. I mean, when was the last time that millions of Christians were killed for their beliefs in such a short period of time?

If anything, I would say the scoffing has decreased quite a bit since Pilot so politely demonstrated how Christianity might not be his cup of tea.

>> ^shinyblurry:

It means the last dispensation, which is an indeterminate amount of time in which the affairs of the world are brought to a close. Scoffing is nothing new, no, but it certainly has grown to an epic proportion today. There are many signs though that these are the last days, such as the reformation of Israel as a nation after 2000 years.
>> ^Ryjkyj:

I just don't get atheism. Where's the hope? Even if you lived a long life and passed on your genetic information to the next generation, you're still going to be forgotten eventually. Even if it takes a trillion years, you just don't matter. Unless humanity acquires immortality some time soon, life just doesn't matter for an atheist. I don't think I could live that way. You can say you'll live for the moment, but you won't remember it, so who cares?! What's the advantage? Atheism is depressing.

While I would agree with the sentiment, sometimes the truth is hard to accept. Either way, I would love for my consciousness to continue after I die. I really hope it does. But since I don't see any evidence either way, I'm forced to determine that I just can't know.

I would say that the most accurate prediction I can make is this: nobody's got a fucking clue. Least of all me.

Yeah, but that's a bit of a cop-out. "Nobody's got a fucking clue" is kinda lame and certainly offers no hope. Come on. I mean, what do you look forward to?

I just can't live with no hope. Immortality is essential for human life, IMO.

On top or that: Some people have "got a fucking clue". See your clergy, they might have something to say on eternity. Again, what's the disadvantage?

What do they know about eternity? The closest thing to eternity they have knowledge of is the regress of time with which their folklore has been passed along. They no more about eternity than your own imagination can conjure. They might have a consistent idea of it, but consistency hardly means accuracy. Never in the history of the world has any mystery that has been solved, ever resulted in a supernatural explanation.

And @Doc_M you seem like a good fella...I doubt your actions would differ any without the belief in any deity.>> ^Doc_M:

On top or that: Some people have "got a fucking clue". See your clergy, they might have something to say on eternity. Again, what's the disadvantage?

>> ^Doc_M:

Yeah, but that's a bit of a cop-out. "Nobody's got a fucking clue" is kinda lame and certainly offers no hope. Come on. I mean, what do you look forward to?


I look forward to watching my son grow up. And I look forward to a beer with my friends every once in a while. Sometimes I even imagine myself contributing something positive to society, and that people might look back at my life and say: there was a cool fellow. But the jury's still way out on that.

But as to the afterlife, I do have hope. I hope there will be something, that we are all eternal. And I abhor the Buddhist idea of reincarnation because if I am reincarnated, but I don't remember myself, then what's the point? Some people tell me "oh, but you sort of remember parts of yourself." Well, that's not good enough for me. I need to remember most of myself if I'm going to consider that I'm still me. One percent just doesn't cut it.

And I've talked to past-life regression folks who say they can remind you of who you were through hypnosis, but you know the problem with those guys?: Everyone is always Marie Antoinette or the fucking King of England. Nobody is ever Pavle the shit-boy, who was an asshole to everyone they met, who's life was totally uninteresting and who died from unchecked walnut-sliver poisoning. I guarantee you that as many people as you talk to who remember their past lives, not one of them was ever a child with fetal alcohol syndrome who's favorite thing to do was eat butt-crack lint.

But at least those people are somewhat creative. I was raised in the Lutheran church. There was a lot of encouragement to think for myself and very little pressure to just say I believed. And I did believe, for a long time. But the more I went to church, the more I kept thinking to myself that everyone is afraid of dying. Even the people who say that they're going to heaven are afraid of dying. I think if the amount of people who say they believe in heaven actually believed they were going there, the world would be a much nicer place.

But it's not a very nice place is it? No. And I think that one of the reasons it's not is that a long time ago, people figured out a way to exploit the fears of others through religion. It's nice that we can all agree on something that makes us a little happier. But when all is said and done, it doesn't really work too well does it? Everyone is still scared of dying, and every religion thinks that somebody else's religion is the cause of earthquakes, etc, etc... So if you're still going to be scared of things that aren't God, what the hell is the point?

And I think a lot of great things came from religion. Early on, the priests of various groups were often the sole repository of knowledge and the leaders of the advancements in science. But all that is long gone. These days it's all about controlling people.

I don't believe that there's nothing, because that would mean I knew something about what happens after you die; but I'm also not an agnostic who believes that "god is nature" or "god is the universe", and even though sometimes I wish there was an answer to the questions that I ask the sky when I have nowhere else to turn, I am forced to come to the conclusion that I am completely and totally ignorant in the ways of the universe and our purpose here on Earth.

But I certainly hope that this isn't it. And I certainly hope that if there is a god, that it will respect the conclusions that I've come to through the faculties it's granted me.

Maybe Shiny is right. But if I agreed to his terms simply to play it safe, god would know I was lying. And I just can't believe in a god who would encourage me to lie to save my soul.

I wouldn't say Im an atheist, but I certainly don't follow any organized religions. I generally like logical answers, atheism usually has those when it comes to religion vs science discussions......but I also don't like people who say that all religions are 100% wrong. I like to think that all of them have a bit of truth to them, and people are too focused on the rest of the crap associated with it that the overall message is lost. Think of them as exaggerated stories, fairy tales, mythology.....just general stories that pass on a code of conduct and some lessons.

Now with that said. I have always wondered if the idea of suicide being a mortal sin is what keeps many religious followers from killing themselves as soon as they find the religion that gives them the best "deal". It's how terrorists operate, it's what nut jobs on the news use as an excuse to kill their kids and themselves.....to "save" them. I mean you are basically living your life by a set of commandments/codes/whatever and doing things to "earn" your way in. You live this life, for an eternal one.....but it seems like too many just look at the destination and ignore the journey. Kind of a, it sucks now and we can't do anything about it (we're being tested, it's a trial, it's our punishment, it's whatever), but eventually we'll get to <insert "heaven" equivalent here>.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

The way you describe religion reminds me of grinding for levels in an RPG.>> ^Porksandwich:

I wouldn't say Im an atheist, but I certainly don't follow any organized religions. I generally like logical answers, atheism usually has those when it comes to religion vs science discussions......but I also don't like people who say that all religions are 100% wrong. I like to think that all of them have a bit of truth to them, and people are too focused on the rest of the crap associated with it that the overall message is lost. Think of them as exaggerated stories, fairy tales, mythology.....just general stories that pass on a code of conduct and some lessons.
Now with that said. I have always wondered if the idea of suicide being a mortal sin is what keeps many religious followers from killing themselves as soon as they find the religion that gives them the best "deal". It's how terrorists operate, it's what nut jobs on the news use as an excuse to kill their kids and themselves.....to "save" them. I mean you are basically living your life by a set of commandments/codes/whatever and doing things to "earn" your way in. You live this life, for an eternal one.....but it seems like too many just look at the destination and ignore the journey. Kind of a, it sucks now and we can't do anything about it (we're being tested, it's a trial, it's our punishment, it's whatever), but eventually we'll get to <insert "heaven" equivalent here>.

>> ^dag:

The way you describe religion reminds me of grinding for levels in an RPG.

Can't think of a better way to describe it, because they are essentially giving you guidelines to live by. Breaking them means you've sinned and need to make it up, depending on the sin. Suicide would be the "cheat" to the end game happy ending if it weren't a sin.

Christianity has always been about having a personal, experiential relationship with Jesus Christ. It's about a community of believers sharing everything they have and living for God. Over time, with this denominationalism, it has become a collection of institutions founded on the traditions of men. The true church is the body of Christ, not a building or institution.

>> ^messenger:
You've really surprised me here. Could you expand on this? How was Christianity once not a religion? It's got a god figure, tenets of faith, imposed moral rules, ceremony, scripture, mythology, dogmatism, and always has. How could that be defined as not a religion?>> ^shinyblurry:
Religion is poison

Found a video that may interest you:



>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^Doc_M:
Yeah, but that's a bit of a cop-out. "Nobody's got a fucking clue" is kinda lame and certainly offers no hope. Come on. I mean, what do you look forward to?

I look forward to watching my son grow up. And I look forward to a beer with my friends every once in a while. Sometimes I even imagine myself contributing something positive to society, and that people might look back at my life and say: there was a cool fellow. But the jury's still way out on that.
But as to the afterlife, I do have hope. I hope there will be something, that we are all eternal. And I abhor the Buddhist idea of reincarnation because if I am reincarnated, but I don't remember myself, then what's the point? Some people tell me "oh, but you sort of remember parts of yourself." Well, that's not good enough for me. I need to remember most of myself if I'm going to consider that I'm still me. One percent just doesn't cut it.
And I've talked to past-life regression folks who say they can remind you of who you were through hypnosis, but you know the problem with those guys?: Everyone is always Marie Antoinette or the fucking King of England. Nobody is ever Pavle the shit-boy, who was an asshole to everyone they met, who's life was totally uninteresting and who died from unchecked walnut-sliver poisoning. I guarantee you that as many people as you talk to who remember their past lives, not one of them was ever a child with fetal alcohol syndrome who's favorite thing to do was eat butt-crack lint.
But at least those people are somewhat creative. I was raised in the Lutheran church. There was a lot of encouragement to think for myself and very little pressure to just say I believed. And I did believe, for a long time. But the more I went to church, the more I kept thinking to myself that everyone is afraid of dying. Even the people who say that they're going to heaven are afraid of dying. I think if the amount of people who say they believe in heaven actually believed they were going there, the world would be a much nicer place.
But it's not a very nice place is it? No. And I think that one of the reasons it's not is that a long time ago, people figured out a way to exploit the fears of others through religion. It's nice that we can all agree on something that makes us a little happier. But when all is said and done, it doesn't really work too well does it? Everyone is still scared of dying, and every religion thinks that somebody else's religion is the cause of earthquakes, etc, etc... So if you're still going to be scared of things that aren't God, what the hell is the point?
And I think a lot of great things came from religion. Early on, the priests of various groups were often the sole repository of knowledge and the leaders of the advancements in science. But all that is long gone. These days it's all about controlling people.
I don't believe that there's nothing, because that would mean I knew something about what happens after you die; but I'm also not an agnostic who believes that "god is nature" or "god is the universe", and even though sometimes I wish there was an answer to the questions that I ask the sky when I have nowhere else to turn, I am forced to come to the conclusion that I am completely and totally ignorant in the ways of the universe and our purpose here on Earth.
But I certainly hope that this isn't it. And I certainly hope that if there is a god, that it will respect the conclusions that I've come to through the faculties it's granted me.
Maybe Shiny is right. But if I agreed to his terms simply to play it safe, god would know I was lying. And I just can't believe in a god who would encourage me to lie to save my soul.

You can't earn your way into Heaven. We are saved by grace, which is unmerited favor. So, even if you did better works than 10 Mother Teresas, if you don't know Jesus Christ, you are still dead in your sins. It's only through Him that we are redeemed, and not by our works, but only our faith in Him is what justifies us.

If you're walking with the Lord then you are not going to commit suicide. The salvation of anyone doing so is most likely in doubt, but that isn't for certain. What I know is that God gives us the strength to overcome, but when you walk away from Him you open yourself to spiritual oppression, which is where feelings of depression and suicide come from. So, anyone getting to that point had probably been walking away for awhile. It's not cut and dry but I would say that's how it is in general.

>> ^Porksandwich:
I wouldn't say Im an atheist, but I certainly don't follow any organized religions. I generally like logical answers, atheism usually has those when it comes to religion vs science discussions......but I also don't like people who say that all religions are 100% wrong. I like to think that all of them have a bit of truth to them, and people are too focused on the rest of the crap associated with it that the overall message is lost. Think of them as exaggerated stories, fairy tales, mythology.....just general stories that pass on a code of conduct and some lessons.
Now with that said. I have always wondered if the idea of suicide being a mortal sin is what keeps many religious followers from killing themselves as soon as they find the religion that gives them the best "deal". It's how terrorists operate, it's what nut jobs on the news use as an excuse to kill their kids and themselves.....to "save" them. I mean you are basically living your life by a set of commandments/codes/whatever and doing things to "earn" your way in. You live this life, for an eternal one.....but it seems like too many just look at the destination and ignore the journey. Kind of a, it sucks now and we can't do anything about it (we're being tested, it's a trial, it's our punishment, it's whatever), but eventually we'll get to <insert "heaven" equivalent here>.

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men"

God put eternity into our hearts. We will never be satisfied with what is in the world, because it is all perishing:

All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

God told us not to love the world or anything in the world, and if we do, the love of God is not in us. He said this because:

And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

He also said where ever your treasure is, there your heart will also be. Which is why He said:

but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Jesus is the treasure we all seek, the way to eternal life. If we set our hearts on worldly things, we will perish along with it. Jesus tasted death for all men, and took the punishment for our sins so that we could be forgiven.. The wages of sin is death, and we are dead in our sins, but through Jesus Christ, our sins are forgiven and we are given a new heart and new spirit, and sealed for eternal life.

>> ^Doc_M:
I just can't live with no hope. Immortality is essential for human life, IMO.

>> ^shinyblurry:

You can't earn your way into Heaven. We are saved by grace, which is unmerited favor. So, even if you did better works than 10 Mother Teresas, if you don't know Jesus Christ, you are still dead in your sins. It's only through Him that we are redeemed, and not by our works, but only our faith in Him is what justifies us.
If you're walking with the Lord then you are not going to commit suicide. The salvation of anyone doing so is in doubt. God gives us the strength to overcome, but when you walk away from Him you open yourself to spiritual oppression, which is where feelings of depression and suicide come from. So, anyone getting to that point had probably been walking away for awhile.

>> ^Porksandwich:
I wouldn't say Im an atheist, but I certainly don't follow any organized religions. I generally like logical answers, atheism usually has those when it comes to religion vs science discussions......but I also don't like people who say that all religions are 100% wrong. I like to think that all of them have a bit of truth to them, and people are too focused on the rest of the crap associated with it that the overall message is lost. Think of them as exaggerated stories, fairy tales, mythology.....just general stories that pass on a code of conduct and some lessons.
Now with that said. I have always wondered if the idea of suicide being a mortal sin is what keeps many religious followers from killing themselves as soon as they find the religion that gives them the best "deal". It's how terrorists operate, it's what nut jobs on the news use as an excuse to kill their kids and themselves.....to "save" them. I mean you are basically living your life by a set of commandments/codes/whatever and doing things to "earn" your way in. You live this life, for an eternal one.....but it seems like too many just look at the destination and ignore the journey. Kind of a, it sucks now and we can't do anything about it (we're being tested, it's a trial, it's our punishment, it's whatever), but eventually we'll get to <insert "heaven" equivalent here>.



I normally have you ignored, but apparently the site still sends emails when an ignored person quotes or mentions you (consider this a bug report to whomever I am supposed to report these to) and it also includes their text.

So, after reading this nonsense, I had to respond.

1) If you "know JC" and "believe in Him", going out and murdering a few dozen people should not allow access to Heaven. So, by not murdering said people, you are in fact "earning" your way in by acting within the guidelines of said religion which also include "knowing JC" and "believing in Him". The notion that someone who is of sound mind and practices a religion that can then go out and break all the guidelines set by it and still get in via grace is no place I would want to exist for eternity.

2) If following God prevents mental illness (depression is a mental illness), why does reading all of your commentary depress me so? Shouldn't I feel better simply by reading all this nonsense? Plus I think you should poll your fellow church goers to see how many are on mood stabilizers or hit the bottle hard in the evenings. I don't think strength = heavy drinking or pills.....or counseling or therapy...or any other coping mechanism for that matter. I think you'll find your list of people walking with the Lord is very small, and that seems like they are forsaking him by their actions and therefore would be denied entry into Heaven. It just doesn't make sense for people to have to rely on external factors to stave off depression if walking with Him prevents mental illness, so the only other explanation is they are faking it.

Atheists have a higher suicide rate. I argue this is because they don't have the guidelines of a religion stating that suicide is a unforgivable sin and that they are not fearful of missing out on heaven/virgins/whatever. It's far too simple an answer to explain away suicide as the forsaking of faith. But it's rather depressing to know that your life has to remain shit because religious people hold sway in many decisions that are contrary to scientific evidence....preventing others from alleviating suffering. Stem cells, certain drugs, scientific research, etc.

It strikes me as supremely arrogant to assume that your will and wish is the will of your deity, and that free will of others should be suppressed because they aren't in lockstep with your beliefs.

Please don't quote me or tag me if you respond to this, hopefully they'll fix the ignore function a little better in the future.

So, after reading this nonsense, I had to respond.

1) If you "know JC" and "believe in Him", going out and murdering a
few dozen people should not allow access to Heaven. So, by not
murdering said people, you are in fact "earning" your way in by acting
within the guidelines of said religion which also include "knowing JC"
and "believing in Him". The notion that someone who is of sound mind
and practices a religion that can then go out and break all the
guidelines set by it and still get in via grace is no place I would
want to exist for eternity.

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Being a Christian isn't a free pass to sin. Anyone who is doing something like you described will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

2) If following God prevents mental illness (depression is a mental
illness), why does reading all of your commentary depress me so?
Shouldn't I feel better simply by reading all this nonsense? Plus I
think you should poll your fellow church goers to see how many are on
mood stabilizers or hit the bottle hard in the evenings. I don't
think strength = heavy drinking or pills.....or counseling or
therapy...or any other coping mechanism for that matter. I think
you'll find your list of people walking with the Lord is very small,
and that seems like they are forsaking him by their actions and
therefore would be denied entry into Heaven. It just doesn't make
sense for people to have to rely on external factors to stave off
depression if walking with Him prevents mental illness, so the only
other explanation is they are faking it.

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Timothy 1:7

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

No one is perfect and everyone has their speciai challenges but if someone is abusing medication and alcohol, they are definitely not following the Lord. Often times people have many areas in their life that they will not turn over to the Lord and they end up in situations like you're describing because of it. When you step out from under Gods protection you invite spiritual oppression into your life.

Atheists have a higher suicide rate. I argue this is because they
don't have the guidelines of a religion stating that suicide is a
unforgivable sin and that they are not fearful of missing out on
heaven/virgins/whatever. It's far too simple an answer to explain
away suicide as the forsaking of faith. But it's rather depressing to
know that your life has to remain shit because religious people hold
sway in many decisions that are contrary to scientific
evidence....preventing others from alleviating suffering. Stem cells,
certain drugs, scientific research, etc.

The problem is the evil that dwells in the hearts of men, which is universal and trancends all borders, boundaries, religions, creeds, races, and other human demarcations. To blame religion for all the evil in the world is to be looking at the symptom and not the cause.

It strikes me as supremely arrogant to assume that your will and wish
is the will of your deity, and that free will of others should be
suppressed because they aren't in lockstep with your beliefs.

It's not for my benefit that I tell you any of this, it is because I care about you and because the Lord commanded me to do so. I am telling you what Gods word says, not what I say.

I am not quoting you because you asked me to, although I think its pretty ridiculous to talk to someone you're ignoring and then tell them not to talk to you.

>> ^shinyblurry:

We will never be satisfied with what is in the world, because it is all perishing:
All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
God told us not to love the world or anything in the world, and if we do, the love of God is not in us.
>> ^Doc_M:
I just can't live with no hope. Immortality is essential for human life, IMO.



And there you go Doc, the reason I choose the bleakness of my own unanswered curiosity over this:

"Nothing will ever satisfy you in your whole life, not the birth of your child, the love of another person, not your grandmother's cookies. In fact, I literally am asking you not to love anything or anyone but Me. And if you do love anything else, I will not love you. Also, please fear Me and die."

Thanks,
-the Lord

I think you're forgetting the second greatest commandment, which is to love your neighbor as yourself. On the contrary to what you said, God wants you to love everyone in the entire world. He wants you to love your wife like Christ loved the church. God asks you to do more and be more than anything this world asks you to do. Your children are a blessing:

Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
(Psalms 127:3-5 ESV)

You misunderstand what that verse about the world means. It means do not value the material things of this world over the things of God. Look at the next verse:

"For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world."

Yes, God wants you to put Him first, because through Him all other things come. To want to do it without Him is like preferring to push your car up a hill instead of driving it down the freeway.

>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^shinyblurry:
We will never be satisfied with what is in the world, because it is all perishing:
All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
God told us not to love the world or anything in the world, and if we do, the love of God is not in us.
>> ^Doc_M:
I just can't live with no hope. Immortality is essential for human life, IMO.


And there you go Doc, the reason I choose the bleakness of my own unanswered curiosity over this:
"Nothing will ever satisfy you in your whole life, not the birth of your child, the love of another person, not your grandmother's cookies. In fact, I literally am asking you not to love anything or anyone but Me. And if you do love anything else, I will not love you. Also, please fear Me and die."
Thanks,
-the Lord

Oh, I see. I guess I've been living my whole life under the assumption that love was "something" and that my wife and son are "part of this world" and not in fact "nothing".

So I imagine you might be able to see how confused I would get when you say something like, "all things are full of weariness" and, "God told us not to love the world or anything in the world".

Fucking major win.