i'll hold back from the american-pie-eating-mob pigeon hole'in.

welcome to the new Obama-Nation, you asked for it, you got it

Wtf was a pregnant woman doing in a situation like that to begin with?

Sure, it isn't her fault that others were stampeding, but they were crammed into that area like that well before opening. Common sense would seem to dictate that if you are pregnant then it probably isn't a good idea to pack yourself into a crowd of people waiting to push through a very narrow opening.

Edit: Reports of the miscarriage are false apparently. Still, it is worth noting that a pregnant lady at some point looked at this crowd of several thousand people (which was unruly even before the doors opened) and thought to herself "yea, that looks like a perfectly safe place to take my unborn child". The AP reports that she was 8 months pregnant. Go ahead and tell me that was a good idea with a straight face.

>> ^Psychologic:
Wtf was a pregnant woman doing in a situation like that to begin with?


WTF? A situation like this?? What do think she expected? She expected to shop! She didn't think about being killed! Who expects danger in going to a Walmart? Who expects civilized people to act like animals? The video should be made public so every god damned one of those people can be charged with involuntary manslaughter for those deaths.

Don't dare blame a victim for this.

This blows my mind. Maybe if our countrymen thought more about others then a dollar off of toilet paper our country wouldn't be in such a pathetic state.

It's not Walmart's fault there was no security either. Those people are at fault... bunch of animals.

Walmart should close that store for good. What a shameful blight this happening here.

This is why I don't bother doing Black Friday!

I didn't shop either, Ant.. didn't want to deal with crowds... NEVER did I ever think it was dangerous though! This is surreal.

Bill you are such a fat moron! How does this have anything to do with Obama? He's not in charge. This is Bush's fault.

"Witnesses say [a pregnant woman] miscarried." Wow, people who were at the stampede followed her to the hospital and listened in on the medical report?

For what it's worth, I read on a different news site that doctors believe the unborn baby is okay.

Firstly (a reasonable response): The fact that people in groups are stupid enough to trample through a store entrance: is a serious threat to any ones safety. Also this proves just how far down the hole we have come to as a species. I despise stores, and crowds, this is exactly why.

Secondly(as a professional): As a former private security officer I can say that no matter the amount of security you have, if that security has no teeth then they are as useless as a condom with a holes in it.

(A gut response)
Holy Calamity, its a store, this vanity is astounding. This is evolution in action, with a little help from society.

Save your fucking money for a rainy day.

http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=9427148&nav=menu191_2

Two people where shot at a toys r us.

This is what America has become, an Idiocracy.

Those cellphone pictures certainly tell the tale: A huge mass of people, with no organization forced upon them by security or police.

Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling 'I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" [eye witness] said. "They kept shopping."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27955316

*dark *wtf

Adding video to channels (Dark, Wtf) - requested by calvados.

Stay classy america

evolution in action.

I'm glad I work in the deli of my Wal-Mart, because it was slow as hell there today. And watching the insane shoppers camped out at 4:30 in the morning was creepy. But hey, at least nobody had to die for it at my store.

And when I tell people I don't like large groups, they look at me like I'm odd.

I read about this on Gizmodo earlier today. This is entirely depressing. When a group of supposedly civilized humans trample a person to death over a sale? I lose my faith in humanity. This is disgusting.
Complain all you want about wars or terrorism, this shows the fallacy of human civilization as much or more in my opinion.

What a senseless tragedy. I'm sure those people were too preoccupied and excited to notice that someone was in danger. We would love to believe that human beings don't act like mindless herd animals when they get overly excited, but they do.

The sad part about all of this is, American Retail consumerism NEEDS the stampede to remain sustainable. In other words, it NEEDS the hype, needs the mindless consumers to sleep outside the doors for days, to generate desire sufficient to keep the economy rolling..

My guess is WalMart will not be held liable for this, as, for all intents and purposes, this is the "price of capitalism."

Now if they installed an American Gladiator-type of obstacle course at the front entrance, that'd be a different story.

[AP coverage & cell phone footage]

Unfuckingbelievable.

*eia

Adding video to channels (Eia) - requested by Trancecoach.

I admit I see everything through a political lens anymore, but this type of thing is just one more reason why I'm deeply skeptical about people who want less and less regulation of business.

I'm not saying this is something where more regulation would've prevented the problem, I'm mostly just saying this whole concept of greed being a good thing has to explain to me why something like this happening was good, or somehow not a product of greed.

Personally, I don't know how we're supposed to expect people to behave when there are many, many voices chanting "be selfish" in ways both subtle and gross, at every level of society.

After all, anything else would be Socialism, or Marxist, or some other ooga-booga scary name for any concept that encourages the slightest bit of self-sacrifice.

>> ^BillOreilly:
welcome to the new Obama-Nation, you asked for it, you got it



lol, i knew it'd be from this idiot before i ever saw who posted it. The guy isnt even in office yet, you've had a double term leading upto it, and you still blame this on him ? - thats being a tool to a whole new level.

>> ^NetRunner:

Did you just turn this tragedy into an anti-capitalism political talking point? I am officially amazed.

I can understand people trampling someone when running in terror, but how it's possible for this to happen over a sale is beyond me, surely you'd realize you're trampling on someone, stop and help them up.

Not to mention you'd have to be idiotic beyond proportions to camp it out in the first place. Have these people not heard of preordering or online sales?

"She actually got out of the line despite those deep discounts, she said she feared for her life"

Can you believe it?? She could have saved a lot of money.

This is so racist. Why do they show pictures and video all the black people, as if they were the ones who stampeded? Why didn't they show the crowds of crazy WHITE people? Damn media.

There were white people there, right?

To all those people condemning the crowd: yes, the crowd as a whole is to blame, the individuals in the crowd for the most part are not. If you've never been in an equivalent crowd where emotions run high, go into a public square in a major city during some sort of special event (new year is good in europe) where lots of drunk people are present. Once a critical mass is reached, the crowd as a whole is out of control. And once it gets moving, there is _nothing_ the few individuals with situational awareness can do. The people in the front are preoccupied with keeping on their feet and actually going where they want to, the people in the back see that the front is moving and are impatient because the motion feedback hasn't reached them yet and start pushing and shoving.

If someone goes down in that kind of situation either the people around them IMMEDIATELY try to stop and help. Once you're on the floor, all you can do is curl up, protect your head and hope. Don't ever go down in a crowd like that. Ever. Bending over, kneeling and trying to get someone up from the floor is next to suicide. Unless you have a couple of burly friends that can try to create a human cordon in front of that spot.

I'm not blaming the victims, but I would blame the store for having no secruity present. Setting up a system of letting only limited abouts of people in at a time (say 12-20) keeps crowd inside the store under control and a stampede won't happen. But you would have to deal with the crushing at the perimeter.

But then again, that would assume that security knows what it's doing. And after seeing how airport security screened me in SF International in febuary of 2002, I wouldn't want to bet money on that. (I was on the special ZZZ 'screen until his ass explodes' list for some reason, and noone, not a single person checked my jacket after I laid it aside at the start of the search... go figure)

I can't remember the last time a Black Friday came and went without this happening, though usually without any deaths, just injuries. While I certainly don't blame the victims, that doesn't mean it's not an obviously dangerous situation to anyone with the slightest bit of awareness.

If you walk down dark alleys waving clips of cash over your head it doesn't make you guilty when you get mugged, but it also doesn't mean you couldn't have kept yourself out of that situation in the first place.

That applies mostly to the customers rather than the employee. He wasn't really there by choice.

>> ^xxovercastxx:
I can't remember the last time a Black Friday came and went without this happening, though usually without any deaths, just injuries. While I certainly don't blame the victims, that doesn't mean it's not an obviously dangerous situation to anyone with the slightest bit of awareness.
If you walk down dark alleys waving clips of cash over your head it doesn't make you guilty when you get mugged, but it also doesn't mean you couldn't have kept yourself out of that situation in the first place.
That applies mostly to the customers rather than the employee. He wasn't really there by choice.


Yea, I feel bad for the old guy.

As far as the customers in that crowd, anyone going into that expecting it to be calm and orderly was delusional. Deaths and serious injury are rare in these cases, but stampedes and selfish behavior is extremely common. If I saw that I'd turn around and go home. There's no point risking injury to myself or my family just to save a little money on stuff I can live without to begin with.

The store should be held liable for this. They know how crazy people get over sales and yet they have no safeguards to insure an orderly entrance into the store. I hope they get sued for millions.

>> ^Sniper007:
This is so racist. Why do they show pictures and video all the black people, as if they were the ones who stampeded? Why didn't they show the crowds of crazy WHITE people? Damn media.

There were white people there, right?

A few. Did you see the link with the pictures of the stampede? I think this is a predominately black community. Racism was not a factor in the media's coverage of the event. Stop seeing racist conspiracies where there are none. The fact that most of these people are black is utterly irrelevent.

To srd's point, you know what I do when I'm on the ground?

I don't hope for shit, I start fighting and bringing more people down with me.

At that point its fight or flight in this case fight or die.

>> ^blankfist:
>> ^NetRunner:

Did you just turn this tragedy into an anti-capitalism political talking point? I am officially amazed.


Not anti-capitalism, but anti-rampant consumerism.

Isn't the fact that it was over a sale part of what makes this particularly tragic?

place your faith in the sum action of individuals in a crowd, and god will reward you with the afterlife.

^ I thought faith in the sum action of greedy individuals in a crowd was what your philosophy was based on.

Since I seem to be accumulating a healthy number of downvotes on my original comment, clearly people disagree with my premise that this shows that greed is not an absolute good. For most people, that's not a revelation, nor offensive, but I've spotted at least 3 at this time who reacted negatively to the assertion.

No one's risen to my challenge to explain either why this was good, or why greed wasn't the cause.

Let me try to make it less confrontational. I'm not saying capitalism is evil -- I'm saying parts of it lead to evil behavior, and I'd love to work together to try to figure out what's wrong and correct it.

I don't think Republican-style conservatives are the cause, but I think their rhetoric pushes things in the wrong direction.

I'd say this incident is mostly a dangerous mix of nihilism, competition, and people's natural tendency in a group to think someone else will handle things like a salesperson lying on the floor.

Still, consumerism built the pressure-cooker that helped make this possible, and I'd love to come up with a solution, because I don't want the free market to go away, I just wish it were less intense at the consumer level somehow, without losing the freedom that makes it so useful in the first place.

I'll bore you with my own little tale of getting caught in this kind of shit. A few friends came into Vegas a few years ago and we parked ourselves square in the center of the Strip and Flamingo. 12 hits, the fire works go off and everyone starts moving again. But by now we're packed, in, and getting more and more compressed. It's fascinating to me to see a relative relation to other forces in nature. You ever been out in the ocean? Because when that surge hits, it's like you're getting carried off on a wave. No control.

Long story short, a tragedy that could have been easily prevented, on all accounts, had people THOUGHT.

Here's an update from MSNBC. Looks like the cops are hunting for the people that trampled the man to death. I doubt they'll be able to positively ID anyone though.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27955316

Management should have went into sporting goods and grabbed a couple 20 guage attitude adjusters...

OMG I just read that the Walmart reopened THE SAME DAY. It's a crime scene!

>> ^swampgirl:
OMG I just read that the Walmart reopened THE SAME DAY. It's a crime scene!


The store manager probably should have kept it closed out of respect for the deceased employee, but generally crime scenes are only kept restricted when there is additional evidence to be gathered.

I wonder how much pressure the manager was under from his managers to get those "Black Friday profits".

>> ^swampgirl:
It's not Walmart's fault there was no security either. Those people are at fault... bunch of animals.
Walmart should close that store for good. What a shameful blight this happening here.


I do think that Walmart (and any store) has an obligation to do certain things to protect the safety of their shoppers and employees.

There are several things that could have been done to prevent this.
1) This is nothing new, so there should have been a police presence. (police, not security, security should be there as well though.)
2) Limit the number of people going in at one time. 10-20 at most. Inform them all that anyone caught running will not be wrung up and will be asked to leave. Those refusing will be arrested for tresspassing (hence the police).
3) Ticket system for high demand/low inventory items. Many stores have been doing this and it helps on the stampedes, because everyone knows what they are able to get beforehand.
4) One door open only and one line. Anyone in the crowd either unruly or not in line, is asked to leave or risk arrest.

Some stores are already doing these things in my area and it has helped.

The reality is that in general people can be animals. Individuals can be stand up, but in crowds you get a mob mentality.

I hope everyone got their Teddy Ruxpins.

Wow.

Well, that just made it to the top of my "Ways I Don't Want to Die" list.

this incident puts another meaning to the phrase: "shop till you drop"...DEAD

Not a good sign.

At least he wasn't laughing at homeless people.

>> ^blankfist:
>>^NetRunner:

Did you just turn this tragedy into an anti-capitalism political talking point? I am officially amazed.

>> ^Psychologic:
Wtf was a pregnant woman doing in a situation like that to begin with?

Exactly. Even if there was no trampling, you don't expose your 8 month pregnant self to the long lines, overcrowding, and pushing and shoving of a "normal" black friday.

>> ^swampgirl:
Don't dare blame a victim for this.


Just because she miscarried doesn't mean she's not stupid.

the stores cause this false excitement and stampede. they should take care of their customers better by actually having crowd control that makes a stampede impossible (but... it would be less exciting, eh?)

I swear the average IQ in our local Wal-Mart is at least 25% lower than other typical big stores here in Wasilla. Personally, I think it makes for the best people watching.

I think all the people making moral points are somewhat missing the point. srd has it about right I think - once you are in a crowd you lose individuality because your choices are so limited. I've been at music festivals when there are crowd surges and nobody is in control. If someone goes down of course you try to help them up, but sometimes you're moving so fast your only choice is to go down with them or stumble over them.

*dead ?

Invocations (dead) cannot be called by BcrdNCola because BcrdNCola is not privileged - sorry.

*dead

This published video has been declared non-functional; embed code must be fixed within 2 days or it will be sent to the dead pool - declared dead by eric3579.

^
The original went down due to a "terms of use violation." I fixed it with CNN coverage of the same event with some clearer details.

>> ^deathcow:
I swear the average IQ in our local Wal-Mart is at least 25% lower than other typical big stores here in Wasilla. Personally, I think it makes for the best people watching.


Do you take your own binoculars, or do you try out the ones on sale?