Sooo... Pat's rich?

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/08/10-7

2 more comments have been lost in the ether at this killed duplicate.

I'm voting this up pretty much purely because I want to see the discussion on this, not so much because I agree with him.

There are truths in what he says, that those who partook in the riots are self involved, self pitying shits who have no justification for doing what they did.

But... this whole 'how/where you were brought up is no excuse for the way you are' line of thinking is rubbish.

It's much easier to have a sense of worth and see that work = reward equation when you've been brought up in a supportive environment where all your basic needs are taken care of without thought and time is then spent on your self esteem and treating other with respect etc.

If you were brought up in a low income environment with parents who don't have any self esteem themselves and pass on that feeling to their children. If time after time you try to do the right thing or work hard and yet are shot down by negative others in your environment or just otherwise shown that cleaning up or doing work doesn't change your situation much... then yeah, you can start getting a world view that doesn't include making an effort because you've never seen it work, you've never been told that if you try you could actually accomplish something.

Sure you can wheel out examples of hugely successful people who dragged themselves out of such situations, but they are BY FAR in the minority, and come from either pretty exceptional character traits in themselves, or you may find that they had one or two mentors who made a huge difference in how they lead their lives.

So Pat's rant about it all being their fault is not entirely true. It's a case of society as a whole not having in place ways of breaking the shitty cycle of poor, self abusing, self loathing parents = the same type of kids.

If programs of one sort or another can be introduced that can show those kids that hard work can make a difference, that they are worthy, and give them opportunities to use any skills they may have productively, then you CAN stop this sort of mentality. You CAN instil a feeling of pride in your neighbourhood, you CAN reduce this ME ME ME thinking.

Pat's thinking doesn't help anything. To help things he could be starting up some centres to start these things moving in the right direction, he could be volunteering for groups that I'm sure already exist who are trying to do these things, but I'm sure are woefully understaffed.

But no, he'd rather just call them all scum and pretend it's entirely their fault and that his upbringing and education have nothing to do with him living comfortably.

There is a balance between society as a whole providing opportunities and personal responsibility for ones own actions. Sure, kids can feel they have no opportunities if they are locked in a cycle of irresopnsible parents = irresponsible kids. But anyone with an IQ large enough to allow them to tie their own shoes knows that smashing windows, setting fire to others personal property, stealing, and all the other crap that went down is wrong and criminal, regardless of how horrible their home life is. The coddling of these whining morons with a sense of entitlement who look on social programs as a way to fuck the system rather than as a way of getting out of the loop of despair for future generations has to stop. The trough is empty, the programs don't work, and the people who participated in these riots are simply criminals that should be dealt with more harshly than they will be.

The danger here is tarring all young Londoners with the same brush. Right wing politics would like us to believe that everybody on any kind of welfare are parasites so that they can squeeze some money out. I don't really disagree with his description of the rioters though, I just don't really see a simple solution to the problem and I think it would be a terrible mistake to start cutting welfare because of a bunch of yobs.

The Police already said that Water Cannons would have not been effective. As for Baton Rounds, well they aren't exactly 100% non-lethal and the Police and Politicians were clearly afraid of inflaming the situation with another death. Do I agree with that? Not really, the Police should have had every asset they needed to protect the lives and property and uphold the law.

I also think the Police is horrible over-criticised in this country. They do a hard job and I've always been surprised with how polite and courteous they are given the shit they have to put up with.

Well he's right. they're morons and assholes.
but still, they are an end result of a more general shift in the overall satisfaction of the populace.

unemployment
bank bailouts
cut services
wealth gap
consumerism
war

and in that regard, or maybe i'm just a conspiracy dork, i'm betting that the brit government is looking into ways to restrict communications. a mid-way police state.
thoughts?

Are you fucking out of your mind?

For every one of these idiots, I'm sure there are hundreds of people who are in the same situation but did not riot and loot. Fuck you idiot, people like you make me sick.

Stop giving these scum bags excuses.

Also Stop with your "Restrict Communications" crap. Twitter, Facebook are just a tool to communication, it's not stop your freedom of speech. Sheeesh...

What the fuck... Are you going to tell me if the internet or mobile services were down, revolution wouldn't happen in places like Cairo?!?! Are you some sort of idiot.



>> ^criticalthud:

Well he's right. they're morons and assholes.
but still, they are an end result of a more general shift in the overall satisfaction of the populace.
unemployment
bank bailouts
cut services
wealth gap
consumerism
war

@spoco2

It's a strange idea that's emerged exclusively in Western countries in the late 20th century: humans are tiny delicate flowers with no backbones --the only creatures in nature that must be pampered from birth or they're permanently ruined.

Go to a country outside of the pampered West, and people work real jobs from a young age, experiencing hardship that virtually none of the rioters have experienced.

This guy is such a cock.

Nothing leaves me so uneasy as people who see simple solutions to large, complex problems.

@chilaxe except those people probably exist in a community that values them and gives them credit for the work they do and looks out for each other and have parents that put in place boundaries and consequences for bad behaviour and praise for good work done. And a feeling of love. They also feel a sense of pride in the small amount that they and their communities have, and will work to support and maintain that.

I'm not saying it's to do with how much you do or don't have, but more so that these kids come from families where the parents do not give support, respect or a feeling of self worth, so they feel like shit in themselves. Then they get no support or encouragement from their local community, so they feel no attachment or connection with their community, and so do shit like this because they feel like they don't belong that they are ostracised by the community etc.

Again, I'm not in anyway supporting or excusing what these thugs did, what I am saying is that this 'fucking take everything away from them and lock them all up' mentality is so wrong.

It's been shown time and f*cking time again, you give kids, adolescents, hell even adults, a feeling of accomplishment in a job, a feeling of connection with a community, a feeling of contribution to things at large and you end up with far happier people who, in turn, have a far greater respect for themselves and other people and their property.

Look back up the chain a bit before just cutting off the wrecking ball.

>> ^kymbos:

Nothing leaves me so uneasy as people who see simple solutions to large, complex problems.


Except there's nothing complicated about a riot. People who aren't happy, for one reason or another, decide en-masse that they have the right to take or destroy other peoples' belongings and they don't mind endangering the lives of hundreds or thousands of others in the process.

The only thing I can give them credit for is, at least it's not over a hockey or basketball game. At least these people have something that's arguably worth being so pissed off about. Now they've just got to learn to act appropriately.

>> ^ipfreely:


For every one of these idiots, I'm sure there are hundreds of people who are in the same situation but did not riot and loot. Fuck you idiot, people like you make me sick.




>> ^criticalthud:
Well he's right. they're morons and assholes.
but still, they are an end result of a more general shift in the overall satisfaction of the populace.
unemployment
bank bailouts
cut services
wealth gap
consumerism
war



that was the point. you should read more carefully.
duh.

He isn't just full of himself, he is filled with rage. He is nearly foaming at the mouth in this video. If he isn't careful he is going to give himself a coronary.

>> ^shinyblurry:

He isn't just full of himself, he is filled with rage. He is nearly foaming at the mouth in this video. If he isn't careful he is going to give himself a coronary.


I agree. Him being pissed is pretty understandable though.

>> ^kymbos:

This guy is such a cock.
Nothing leaves me so uneasy as people who see simple solutions to large, complex problems.


He offered a solution? I must have missed that...

I also upvoted to spur discussion.

Pat has a valid point about the cycle of bad parents --> loser kids --> bad parents. Sure, it pisses me off too, but any "justice" should be in some way restorative, preferably in favour of the victim, society at large, and the perp too. Taking away the rioter's homes doesn't help the carpet seller whose shop was burnt out. Taking away their social benefits doesn't reduce the likelihood of another riot. They should do time working for free moving in new carpets for the carpet seller. They should do time with Habitat for Humanity building homes for the newly homeless. They should go to schools to give talks on the dangers of fire in a residential building.

And so on.

I started a comment, and it turned into a freakin rant.

As expected, you guys are building an army.

http://goo.gl/fmYST

>> ^ryanbennitt:

>> ^kymbos:
This guy is such a cock.
Nothing leaves me so uneasy as people who see simple solutions to large, complex problems.

He offered a solution? I must have missed that...


I think his solution was an increase of government force and government agents to battle the rioters. We need to get the people used to seeing the police as a paramilitary force.

Pat wants the police to go in "cracking heads" ... yet a couple of weeks ago he said violence was NEVER the answer. He must have meant unless you're the government.

Pat Condell = Statist.

I agree with this guy 99%. He is not a cock. Of course, watching an atheist angered by a lack of morality in the populace is hilarious. People didn't regularly act this way 40 years ago. What changed?

Not everyone proclaiming to be a Christian follows Thou shalt not steal all the time, but more of them have values than the ones raised with....NOTHING.

Sorry Atheists, without those funny Bible stories/sermons/morality plays, you have no vehicle to deliver your values, which oddly mirror Christian values in so many ways.

>> ^quantumushroom:

I agree with this guy 99%. He is not a cock. Of course, watching an atheist angered by a lack of morality in the populace is hilarious. People didn't regularly act this way 40 years ago. What changed?
Not everyone proclaiming to be a Christian follows Thou shalt not steal all the time, but more of them have values than the ones raised with....NOTHING.
Sorry Atheists, without those funny Bible stories/sermons/morality plays, you have no vehicle to deliver your values, which oddly mirror Christian values in so many ways.


Riots don't happen in Japan, either--a country where less than 1% of the population is Christian. Don't you think the Japanese have 1000 times more reasons to riot than these guys? Many people in the tsunami hit areas are still living in school gyms, without air conditioning in 90+ degree weather. They have no work, no homes, and not a whole lot of hope. Meanwhile, a 20km radius in Fukushima is uninhabitable and will likely remain that way for the foreseeable future. The people who used to live there are basically homeless--they can't claim insurance on their homes because technically their homes haven't been destroyed. And it's not just people in northern Japan that are being affected--radioactive food is "accidentally" getting through inspections and being consumed by the general populace.

Most have never heard of the ten commandments here. 80% of the population are atheist. Yet there are no riots, no looting, no violent demonstrations. People are angry, but they are working peacefully towards solutions to the problems through grassroots campaigns. So my question for you is, how do you reconcile these facts with your belief that only Christianity can instill morality in people?

An excellent question. The answer is, Japan has a religion, and that religion is Japan itself (nationalism). Yes, Shinto is there, but AFAIK, it's mostly ceremonial.

The Japanese have a very strong family-oriented culture with clearly defined roles and a nearly homogenous society. They also have a concept of honor unheard of in the West. Disgracing one's family name by stealing or rioting would be inexcusable.

Unfortunately, the Japanese are, IMO, still too trusting of authority in times of crisis.

I never claimed that Christianity is the only way to instill values, but because a tenet of generic Christianity is that it's the "ONLY" way, I can see why one might think so.

When God is "killed" the State becomes God, and a murderous one at that. The only majority atheist countries spared mass slaughter have traditionally religious cultures or strict cultural values. Right now England has neither, and because the population is unarmed, they are subjects of the crown, not citizens.


>> ^SDGundamX:

>> ^quantumushroom:
I agree with this guy 99%. He is not a cock. Of course, watching an atheist angered by a lack of morality in the populace is hilarious. People didn't regularly act this way 40 years ago. What changed?
Not everyone proclaiming to be a Christian follows Thou shalt not steal all the time, but more of them have values than the ones raised with....NOTHING.
Sorry Atheists, without those funny Bible stories/sermons/morality plays, you have no vehicle to deliver your values, which oddly mirror Christian values in so many ways.

Riots don't happen in Japan, either--a country where less than 1% of the population is Christian. Don't you think the Japanese have 1000 times more reasons to riot than these guys? Many people in the tsunami hit areas are still living in school gyms, without air conditioning in 90+ degree weather. They have no work, no homes, and not a whole lot of hope. Meanwhile, a 20km radius in Fukushima is uninhabitable and will likely remain that way for the foreseeable future. The people who used to live there are basically homeless--they can't claim insurance on their homes because technically their homes haven't been destroyed. And it's not just people in northern Japan that are being affected--radioactive food is "accidentally" getting through inspections and being consumed by the general populace.
Most have never heard of the ten commandments here. 80% of the population are atheist. Yet there are no riots, no looting, no violent demonstrations. People are angry, but they are working peacefully towards solutions to the problems through grassroots campaigns. So my question for you is, how do you reconcile these facts with your belief that only Christianity can instill morality in people?

This sheltered prick doesn't like it when the poor take their oppression to the streets ; but he's fine with the fact that white collared criminals are systemically stealing all of the money out from under everyone and reinvesting it into the upper-class & multi-national corporations thereby bankrupting nearly everyone's futures.

Yeah, protecting the 99.9% of the community from the criminal thugs that are burning their homes, cars and small businesses by cracking down (non-lethally of course) on the looters in time, now that's STATIST OPPRESSION!! ugh.

>> ^marbles:

>> ^ryanbennitt:
>> ^kymbos:
This guy is such a cock.
Nothing leaves me so uneasy as people who see simple solutions to large, complex problems.

He offered a solution? I must have missed that...

I think his solution was an increase of government force and government agents to battle the rioters. We need to get the people used to seeing the police as a paramilitary force.
Pat wants the police to go in "cracking heads" ... yet a couple of weeks ago he said violence was NEVER the answer. He must have meant unless you're the government.
Pat Condell = Statist.

I agree with Pat Condell, even as I acknowledge that the people that helped cause the GFC should be more harshly punished.

But it's hardly conducive to a better society as a whole to cause immense amounts of infrastructure damage (do they think the money to fix this will fall from heaven?) and private businesse damage and theft (insurance goes up = prices go up for everyone) to compound the issues of the GFC... Never mind the private property damage and loss of life.

The people rioting and looting never think in these terms, they only care about their own personal benefit. We're not talking about legitimate protestors here...

eg. http://videosift.com/video/Interview-with-UK-Riot-Looters

These young guys go on about all the things the government should reinstate, after boasting about the things they ripped off. Yep, great thinking guys, the increased spending on policing and replacing destroyed infrastructure and property is GUARANTEED to leave plenty of tax dollars over to subsidise your university educations... /eyeroll

And Condell is absolutely right re: countries like Somalia... Growing up in a country with a social welfare system that might not cater to every need as much as they might like it to is miles away from living in a country where the ability to steadily supply your children with food is almost impossible.

>> ^hpqp:

Yeah, protecting the 99.9% of the community from the criminal thugs that are burning their homes, cars and small businesses by cracking down (non-lethally of course) on the looters in time, now that's STATIST OPPRESSION!! ugh.
>> ^marbles:
>> ^ryanbennitt:
>> ^kymbos:
This guy is such a cock.
Nothing leaves me so uneasy as people who see simple solutions to large, complex problems.

He offered a solution? I must have missed that...

I think his solution was an increase of government force and government agents to battle the rioters. We need to get the people used to seeing the police as a paramilitary force.
Pat wants the police to go in "cracking heads" ... yet a couple of weeks ago he said violence was NEVER the answer. He must have meant unless you're the government.
Pat Condell = Statist.



Is that what's going on? From what I can tell, police were told to stand by and observe violent crime while it happened. The nanny state refuses to do it's job. So what do we need? A BIGGER nanny state with more government agents carrying guns to protect themselves. Should the citizens protect themselves? NO! The nanny state will protect you. We'll just need more of your money to buy riot gear, tear gas, assault rifles, and a bunch of other new toys. Of course we'll also need more money to employ more agents to battle the rioters.

This is all a ruse. The police let the "retail riots" happen, so they could justify expanding government force--preparation to crack heads on authentic revolutionaries in the near future.

>> ^hpqp:

@marbles
You're right, this is all a big guv'mint conspiracy so that England can go on being an oppressive dictatorship.


Is there such a thing as a non-oppressive dictatorship?

All Hail the Queen.

>> ^hpqp:

Beware what you say @marbles, Her Majesty's Imperial Stazi are sure to come after you and have you locked away in the the London Tower. Or worse, have you participate in the next royal wedding!


Yeah, that's what happens to people that talk. Just ask David Kelly.

where's all this opportunity that Pat is talking about?

>> ^marbles:

>> ^hpqp:
Beware what you say @marbles, Her Majesty's Imperial Stazi are sure to come after you and have you locked away in the the London Tower. Or worse, have you participate in the next royal wedding!

Yeah, that's what happens to people that talk. Just ask David Kelly.


Um, you are aware that Britain is not actually ruled by the Queen, right?

He is right about the state of policing in the UK. The reality is, most officers in the UK who join up get their 2 years in then go to another country either in Europe, or Aus, NZ, or Canada. Because PCness, and the inability to do their job, is now their job. Peel did a lot of good things for the state of policing and many of his ideas are in use today still. But it's gone from the 'work with' to 'blind eye' because someone will get upset that you arrested their 'darling' who has their own binder 2" thick full of sanctions, arrests, and court appearances. A lot of police services take the 'hands off' approach to even serious crimes, because it might inflame someones sensibilities. Or enrage the minority.

Oddly even here in Canada we have something similar albeit on a smaller scale. It's called Toronto. The average cop until they instituted a contract signing agreement would stay on at the TPS for roughly 2 years, then go anywhere else they wanted. It wasn't just the workload(though it's very heavy), it's that there is so much political correctness, that policing is becoming ineffective.

Well you get what you want. You want police to go easy, they go easy. And you get the NEET's rioting because a drug dealer pulled a gun, and got their ass killed. And you arrest some punk for smashing windows, charging them with vandalism, and criminal intent and you're suddenly going 'too hard'.

Well, that was an easy one to disprove. Via Wikipedia:

Riots in the 1970s
1970 - Kent State shootings, May 1970, (Kent, Ohio, United States)
1970 - Hard Hat riot, Wall Street, May 8, 1970, (New York City, New York, United States)
1970 - Harakat Tahrir riots, June 17, 1970 El-Aaiun[citation needed]
1970 - Falls Curfew (Belfast, Northern Ireland on 3–5 July 1970)
1970 - Fatti di Reggio, July 1970, (Reggio Calabria, Italy)
1970 - Koza riot, December 20, (Ryukyu Islands, United States, later Okinawa Prefecture, Japan)
1971 - May Day Protests 1971, May 1971, (Washington, D.C., United States)
1971 - 1971 Springbok tour (Australia)
1971 - Camden Riots, August 1971, (Camden, New Jersey, United States)
1971 - Operation Demetrius (Northern Ireland on August 9–11, 1971)
1971 - Attica Prison uprising, (Attica, New York, United States)
1971 - Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
1972 - Bloody Sunday (Derry, Northern Ireland on 30 January 1972)
1972 - Operation Motorman (Northern Ireland on 31 July 1972)
1973 and 1974 - Athens Polytechnic uprising, Greek student riots and revolution at National Technical University of Athens, military junta overthrown, (Greece)
1973 - Oklahoma State Penitentiary Prison Riot, (McAlester, Oklahoma, United States)[citation needed]
1973 - Ageo incident, Tokyo Metropolitan Railways Riot,(Tokyo and Saitama, April 1973)[citation needed]
1974 - Cherry Blossom Festival at the Richmond Stadium, (Richmond, Virginia, United States)[citation needed]
1974 - Ulster Workers' Council strike (Northern Ireland, May 1974)
1974 - Ten Cent Beer Night, (Cleveland, Ohio, United States, June 4, 1974)
1975 - Chapeltown riot Leeds, West Yorkshire ,England
1975 - Nieuwmarkt riot, March - April 1975 (Amsterdam, Netherlands)
1975 - Livernois-Fenkell riot (Detroit, Michigan, United States)
1975 - European cup Final 1975, Leeds United riot in Paris
1976 - Vitoria Riots, March 3 (Vitoria, Basque Country, Spain)
1976 - Kobe Festival Riot by motorcycle gangs (Bōsōzoku), May 15 in Japan
1976 - Notting Hill Carnival Riot (London, England)
1976 - Soweto Riots (Soweto, South Africa)
1977 - 1977 Egyptian Bread Riots, January, 1977, (Egypt)
1977 - New York City Blackout riot, July 1977, (New York City, United States)
1977 - Sri Lankan riots of 1977, (Sri Lanka)
1978 - Rameeza Bee Riots, (Hyderabad, India)
1979 - Disco Demolition Night, (Chicago, Illinois, United States)
1979 - White Night gay riots, May 1979 (San Francisco, California)
1979 - Greensboro Riot/Shootings, Nov. 1979, (Greensboro, North Carolina, United States)
1979 - Southall Riots, (Southall, West London, England)

>> ^quantumushroom:

Of course, watching an atheist angered by a lack of morality in the populace is hilarious. People didn't regularly act this way 40 years ago. What changed?
Not everyone proclaiming to be a Christian follows Thou shalt not steal all the time, but more of them have values than the ones raised with....NOTHING.


So what's the reason that all these god-fearing, morally-informed-with-superior-'Christian'-values people engaged in riots? Ummm... maybe it is because the proximate causes of a riot are based on economic and societal conditions and not prevented by a 2000 year old book. Also worth noting in the list is included Bloody Sunday, which, if I remember correctly, was part of a conflict based on rival gangs within your beloved Christianity kicking the shit out of each other.