They've been acting like Nazis since the beginning. Israel or Grossdeutschland, the ideas and arguments are the same.

wow

Great!

I Godwin this, erp... to late.

They've been acting like Nazis since the beginning. Israel or Grossdeutschland, the ideas and arguments are the same.

This is such a stupid reply, and so offensive and I hope everyone recognises it as the shit it is...

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is plain and simple wrong....

>> ^Lego123:
They've been acting like Nazis since the beginning. Israel or Grossdeutschland, the ideas and arguments are the same.
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is plain and simple wrong....


Really? The number of easy comparisons is pretty fucking incredible, draw yourself a chart up some time. I think Israel has been at it longer though, so maybe they're more 'Nazi' than the Nazis were even? Just a thought. And I'm not pro-Palestine btw, I'm just anti-killing-kids-because-it-seems-to-get-you-off-like-some-sadistic-psychopath-masturbating-in-the-mirror.

Was that mumbling from the crowd them saying "hear hear"? I'm not too familiar with the traditions of the... House of Commons, is it?

This man is saying what a lot of people (well at least myself) have been thinking.I hope this video climbs very high in the sift.

Big upvote.

(and ^Rosekat is bang on too)

>> ^rosekat:
>> ^Lego123:
They've been acting like Nazis since the beginning. Israel or Grossdeutschland, the ideas and arguments are the same.
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is plain and simple wrong....

Really? The number of easy comparisons is pretty fucking incredible, draw yourself a chart up some time. I think Israel has been at it longer though, so maybe they're more 'Nazi' than the Nazis were even? Just a thought. And I'm not pro-Palestine btw, I'm just anti-killing-kids-because-it-seems-to-get-you-off-like-some-sadistic-psychopath-masturbating-in-the-mirror.


the most obvious example to me is the ghetto that is Gaza. it's one of the most densely populated places on the planet and the borders are on lockdown. to get supplies such as food, water, and medicine they've had to dig tunnels into Egypt, which Israel is now trying to destroy. take away these basic necessities and then wait for them to get fed up and launch a couple of unguided, primitive rockets, then slaughter them with some of the most advanced weaponry available. what happened to the jews during WWII is of course terrible, but that in no way gives them a blank check to carry out their own inhumane (although not nearly as severe) actions. i mean no disrespect, but to me these parallels are fairly plain to see, but seem to be shrouded by something else that Israel has learned from the Nazi's (and undoubtedly the US) , the art of propaganda.</rant>

seriously guys,
you have the right to be pissed of on Israel. But comparing it to Nazi-Germany is simply naive. Just try to imagine Hitler on a negotiation for a 2-state solution. muhahaha.

>> ^MaxWilder:
Was that mumbling from the crowd them saying "hear hear"? I'm not too familiar with the traditions of the... House of Commons, is it?

Yep, that's it. "Hear hear" to show agreement with a statement.

>> ^yakyak:
seriously guys,
you have the right to be pissed of on Israel. But comparing it to Nazi-Germany is simply naive. Just try to imagine Hitler on a negotiation for a 2-state solution. muhahaha.



yes, israel has been working so hard on that one. ripping palestinian land, the tiny bit they have left, into pieces. hitler once promised peace, and not to invade certain countries.

since you dont agree on the nazi comparison, then explain to me the difference between the apartheid in s-africa and israel today?

>> ^yakyak:
seriously guys,
you have the right to be pissed of on Israel. But comparing it to Nazi-Germany is simply naive. Just try to imagine Hitler on a negotiation for a 2-state solution. muhahaha.


Comparing something to something doesn't mean they are equivalent, it just implies that they have lots of real similarities. They're not putting Palestinians in ovens but they are treating them as less than human and callously letting/causing allot of them to die and obliterating their ability to have full lives and culture. And they have a history of tactics calculated with that callousness like the Nazis, even if not as severe.

Another nutter self-hating jew.

Again, he elides over the difference between a Jew in Nazi Germany, who would not have fought against the Nazi state if not for being placed in a concentration camp, and the Hamas militants, who would by-and-large continue to seek the destruction of Israel by any means possible, whether they were completely free or not completely free.

At every juncture in history, since the British mandate on, a significant proportion of Palestinians has sought the destruction of Jewish life in Israel, regardless of the amount of safety, security, and freedom those Palestinians had.

This man is the fool, for condemning Israel without providing an alternative.

The Jews in Nazi Germany were not fanatics. The Palestinian militants, by-and-large, are fanatics.

So every person in Gaza is a Hamas militant? Or if not, enough of them are that it warrants a full-scale invasion and decimation?

Put yourself in Gaza, as a civilian with a family. Then tell me that Israel is acting rationally.

>> ^Yehoshua:
Another nutter self-hating jew.
Again, he elides over the difference between a Jew in Nazi Germany, who would not have fought against the Nazi state if not for being placed in a concentration camp, and the Hamas militants, who would by-and-large continue to seek the destruction of Israel by any means possible, whether they were completely free or not completely free.
At every juncture in history, since the British mandate on, a significant proportion of Palestinians has sought the destruction of Jewish life in Israel, regardless of the amount of safety, security, and freedom those Palestinians had.
This man is the fool, for condemning Israel without providing an alternative.
The Jews in Nazi Germany were not fanatics. The Palestinian militants, by-and-large, are fanatics.

Thinker, if I was a civilian in Gaza with a family, I wouldn't have voted for Hamas. If I was a civilian in Gaza with a family who didn't vote for Hamas, I would condemn Hamas, not Israel, for bringing war down upon my head.

Yes, enough of the people in Gaza are Hamas militants to warrant an invasion. No, it's not a decimation. There are approximately 1.5 million people in Gaza; less than 700 civilians have been killed.

700 into 1.5 million is less than five thousandths of a percent - .000466666%

This is not decimation, this is not genocide, and this is not disproportionate response.

This is war, and war is horrible, but this war is being prosecuted with more care, more understanding, and more concern for civilian casualties than the staggering majority of modern wars.

Get off your high horse, and stop downvoting my comments simply for disagreeing with you and explaining why I do so. Your sympathy for the suffering of others is admirable, but misplaced.

Feel empathy instead for the people of Israel, who have a Hobson's choice to make whenever they are attacked by cowards in civilian garb, unguided rockets launched into towns, and suicide bombers in their homes and streets.

dead tofu, apartheid in South Africa was based on white people's beliefs about the racial inferiority of black people.

The Israelis do not think that the Palestinian people are inferior, racially or otherwise. The Israelis want to stop being threatened and killed by Palestinians.

The anti-apartheid movement was renowned for being almost entirely pacifistic.

The Palestinian movements are rarely pacifistic, and are not simply about having voting rights and equal treatment under the law. The Palestinian movements are mostly focused on sovereignty (an admirable and moral goal), and the destruction of the state of Israel (not so much).

Yehoshua, you don't disagree so much as you peddle forth the same BS spit out by the Israel media to justify the actions of the IDF. Shit your name is the Jewish pronounciation of Jesus for goddsakes.

And its not like you bring forth any objectivity to the discussion, not to mention that your comments are woefully ignorant or rather malicious in their reading of history and the conflict at large.

Hamas was elected not only because of it being terrorist, shit the Americans voted in Bush should we condemn all Americans to die for their unlawful unilateral military actions? Hamas provided the Palestinian people with a government that provided schools and hospitals when Fatah was too busy with infighting over who controls what after Yasser Araft died who ran the thing as his personal mob business more then any government institution that cared for its people.

Hamas is a reflection and embodiment of the bitterness that Isreal has wrought on the Palestinian people over the last 60 years, it is foolish and stupidity to simply relegate peoples actions to terrorism without thinking about what exactly drives a populace or a single person to resist and fight to the death.

To say that Israel is conducting this 'war' as safely as possible is the dumbest shit I ever heard, you yourself claim that war is hell yet at the same time you really believe that bombing and killing civilians will suddenly enlight them and turn them into docile democratic people. How is Israel showing care by telling Gazans to basically internally flee within the open air prison they set up with blockades, necessitating the tunnels that smuggle goods in. The Gazan blockade has been in effect since June of last year, something that Israel has claimed was to destroy Hamas as well by applying collective punishment of all Gazans, a war crime under Geneva conventions. Violence simply begets violence see the current destabilized Iraq and Afghanistan as a whole.

As a military strategy its disconnected with what Livni claims of peace and ending Hamas, the Lebanese war showed that all of Israel's military power could not destroy Hezboallah and what was the cost of this failure? The utter devastation of most of Lebanon. How did that work out for Israel? A great success? Will this hostile action cease the attacks or simply create even more fundamentalism in a people who see right that the world at large care not for their plight.

Countless cases have shown that COIN works best in fighting terrorism that is allying yourself with the general population to seek a common objective, this was shown to work in several locations in Iraq such as Mosul. However Israel has no common objective with the Palestinian people who they have shoved into smaller and smaller enclaves through slow acquisition of lands by 'settlers'. The west bank looks like fucking swiss cheese now. Israel seeks simply to acquire and hold land. It's military power assures even though civilian deaths will occur through hostile action, in the long term the land will become theirs.

But this is what Israel wants and needs, a perpetual war to keep its population in check and to continue having American support. To claim its fighting the good fight killing mostly civilians so that it can win elections.

But hell what do you care you come simply to shill propagandistic bullshit and by lines of the Israel apologist media who don't even cover Gaza because IDF does not allow reporters in.

I could on and on deconstructing your thinly veiled apologizes for what are essentially war crimes.

Think of the analogy of what is happening in Gaza, The US is being bombed by Russia because Russia is sick and tired of the nuclear threat America presents. Russia is full justified in assuring its national security and hopes that by bombing major population centers of America, the American people will rise up and over throw their tyrannical government that they voted in.

kthxbye.

Joe the plumberwriter reporter wouldn't lie.

You're ignorant, Farhad. Yehoshua is Joshua. Which is my name.

Yeshua, on the other hand...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_(name)

Furthermore, I'm not simply "peddling a line of bullshit."

You are antagonistic without acknowledging any of the truth of what I say - it does not strengthen your case, it weakens it.

If you have some disagreement about my understanding of the history of the region, explain it instead of simply calling me a liar. Your rage is apparent, but unsupported.

Do you disagree that the elections that put Hamas in power were free? That they are expressing the will of their populace? Would you absolve Americans from responsibility for Bush's mistakes around the world? I wouldn't. If I'm not mistaken, the current economic crisis we're suffering seems connected to policies of this past government.

As an American, I abhor most of what the Bush administration has said and done to this country and our civil liberties, not to mention the world and our standing in it.

As to Lebanon, it's my understanding that the head of Hezbollah apologized for the war in Lebanon, until he heard that the Israelis considered it a defeat. Then he proclaimed that it was a tremendous victory for Lebanon. As a matter of fact, the Lebanon border had been very quiet up until this latest conflict, and still remains relatively quiet.

Israel sets very high goals for itself, and when it does not meet them, it considers that a failure. I don't think that's wrong, but I don't think that means that Israel should stop protecting itself.

Do I think the invasion of Gaza will lead to peace all by itself? Of course not. Do I think it will cause some problems for Israel? Yes. However, I believe that it holds significant hope for doing more good than harm, as far as peace in the region is concerned.

Are you here for reasoned discussion, Farhad, or simply to have others agree with you and foment hatred against Israel and the Jewish people?

It is the refusal to find common ground and accept disagreement without demeaning and vilifying the other side that makes this conflict intractable. That way of thought perpetuates the problem.

Citizens of Israel who are of arabic descent have, by law, the same rights as other citizens of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

The Nazi analogy is overblown when we're talking about a thousand people dying in the fog of war in an area that has 100,000 per square mile. There are most definitely a handful of homicidal Israeli soldiers, but there isn't political support for Israel to conduct anything remotely as severe as what Hitler did.

Not disproportionate!? It's the equivalent of shooting someone for taking your parking space. It's very much disproportionate and eventually it will not be accepted.

>> ^Yehoshua:
Thinker, if I was a civilian in Gaza with a family, I wouldn't have voted for Hamas. If I was a civilian in Gaza with a family who didn't vote for Hamas, I would condemn Hamas, not Israel, for bringing war down upon my head.
Yes, enough of the people in Gaza are Hamas militants to warrant an invasion. No, it's not a decimation. There are approximately 1.5 million people in Gaza; less than 700 civilians have been killed.
700 into 1.5 million is less than five thousandths of a percent - .000466666%
This is not decimation, this is not genocide, and this is not disproportionate response.
This is war, and war is horrible, but this war is being prosecuted with more care, more understanding, and more concern for civilian casualties than the staggering majority of modern wars.
Get off your high horse, and stop downvoting my comments simply for disagreeing with you and explaining why I do so. Your sympathy for the suffering of others is admirable, but misplaced.
Feel empathy instead for the people of Israel, who have a Hobson's choice to make whenever they are attacked by cowards in civilian garb, unguided rockets launched into towns, and suicide bombers in their homes and streets.

>> ^Yehoshua:
Another nutter self-hating jew.
Again, he elides over the difference between a Jew in Nazi Germany, who would not have fought against the Nazi state if not for being placed in a concentration camp, and the Hamas militants, who would by-and-large continue to seek the destruction of Israel by any means possible, whether they were completely free or not completely free.
At every juncture in history, since the British mandate on, a significant proportion of Palestinians has sought the destruction of Jewish life in Israel, regardless of the amount of safety, security, and freedom those Palestinians had.
This man is the fool, for condemning Israel without providing an alternative.
The Jews in Nazi Germany were not fanatics. The Palestinian militants, by-and-large, are fanatics.



right, the birth of israel was very peaceful. no militants involved. u r a joke. the nazis got away with wiping jews out before they could organize any form for resistance. israel hasnt been able to get away with wiping out the palistinias, therfore have the palistinians developed into fanatics after 50 yrs of being treated like dirt.

and right, the israelis have never looked at palestinians as sub-humans....r u kidding me, what fuckin cave do you live in?

and right, the israelis have never looked at palestinians as sub-humans....r u kidding me, what fuckin cave do you live in?


This was on Reddit a few weeks ago: http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." - Menachem Begin
Former Prime Minister of Israel

That's a good example of treating a group of people as sub-human imo.

*promote

Post cannot be self promoted by original submitter dead_tofu because dead_tofu does not have enough Power Points. (You can always purchase more Power Points.)

here's some very interesting text from scriptures. gives you a little inside to what a hardcore jew thinks of non-jews:

http://wake-up-america.net/from_the_jewish_holy_book__the_t.htm

Palestinians are a fiction. There's no such things as a Palestinian language or culture and no unique genetic Palestinian makeup.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

I would add that Egypt borders the Gaza strip, and has not allowed aid through. I would also hasten to add that I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing so at the request of Israel, but I don't know either way. Something to think about.

Separately, dead tofu, I will admit that I have very little knowledge of the Talmud, but I would say that I personally disavow all of the statements on that page, whether they are translated properly or taken out of context, and doubt that you could find ten thousand Jews in the entire world who agreed with those statements.

I know that you could find similarly abhorrent statements in the texts of any of the major religions, and that those statements have very little to do with the actual practice of most of the members of those religions.

I also don't much like Menachem Begin. He's kind a Nixonian figure to Israel; he led violent activity against the British before Israeli independence, signed a peace treaty with Egypt (giving back the Sinai), and then ordered the unsuccessful invasion of Lebanon after the attempted assassination of Israel's diplomat to the UK.

He's the quote from the speech he gave after the no-confidence vote in the Knesset regarding the war in Lebanon:

"The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents."

He's talking about killing people who try kill Israeli children.

See this site for more examples of misquotes: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=766&x_context=2

I will also disagree here with qm and say that, whether there were Palestinians 60 years ago or not, there are Palestinians now, with a unique culture and identity separate from other peoples in the region.

Furthermore, plenty of the people who identify as Palestinians have ancestry in the region, and certainly a great deal of them have some kind of right to live in the area if they wish, as part of an independent Palestinian state or the State of Israel.

What they don't have a right to do is demand the end of the State of Israel and the death or expulsion of its residents.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Palestinians are a fiction. There's no such things as a Palestinian
language or culture and no unique genetic Palestinian makeup.

Americans are a fiction. There's no such things as a American language or culture and no unique genetic American makeup.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side.

Arab nations have no interest in getting in a prolonged war with Israel, its political and economic suicide. Both Saudi Arabia and Eygpt have normalized relations with Israel through American policy of paying people off.

Palestinians have been allowed to flee into GCC states for years even though there is no firm Palestinian government or passport. There are huge Palestinian populations and refugee camps in every GCC state.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

By your logic you should move out and give back all the lands to American Indians which were murdered by colonists. The land of Jerusalem was occupied by every religious and ethnic denomination over the course of time, its fallacious to claim one ethnic group deserves the land more then the other. This isn't the time of the Crusades.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

Israel isn't surrounded by enemies on every side, a common myth peddled by Israel's apologists, American dollars have bought the tacit tolerance and indifference of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Lebanon simply wishes to be left alone to be able to rebuild after it was punished for the actions of Hezboallah. Syria was bombed by IDF planes about a possible nuclear site of which details are murky and under reported because there is no conclusive evidence of it. The only nation consistently bombing people using high tech is Israel, who wanted to go as far as bombing Iran and destabilizing the region further when no nuclear weapons have been developed.

Which is the only nation in the Middle East with nuclear weapons? Israel.

>> ^Yehoshua:
You're ignorant, Farhad. Yehoshua is Joshua. Which is my name. Yeshua, on the other hand...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_(name)

There is debate about the Hebrew phrasing of Jesus between Yehoshua, Yeshua or Yeshu by references from Numbers, the old testament and writings of the time. But that's besides the point. But lets not get into a theological discussion here.

Do you disagree that the elections that put Hamas in power were free?

Elections are the only form of expression the Palestinians had in opposing the Fatah government, it was their way of showing a loss of confidence in Fatah which at the time was in utter turmoil. Remember at the time Condi Rice and Bush as a whole were pushing for democratic action in the Middle East as a whole (ironically not with Egypt or Saudi Arabia).

When Hamas won Israel and the US basically went around Hamas and started to reinstate Fatah as the power representation of Palestine. Hamas isn't wholly compromised of terrorists, as its cell based, negotiations and concessions would have been better then outright ignoring Hamas and further imposing a blockade on Gaza. Which only solidified extremist elements within Hamas.

The lack of dealing with your enemies is a severe strategic failure shown by both the US and Israel, even during the height of the Cold War there was constant contact and negotiation to avert a possible third world war. Talking to Hamas would have been difficult as Israel does not claim responsibility for many hostile actions over the last 60 years as it never gives a platform to Palestinian interests, its always wanted to deal down concessions to Palestinians.

As to Lebanon, it's my understanding that the head of Hezbollah apologized for the war in Lebanon, until he heard that the Israelis considered it a defeat. Then he proclaimed that it was a tremendous victory for Lebanon. As a matter of fact, the Lebanon border had been very quiet up until this latest conflict, and still remains relatively quiet.

Hasan Nasrallah is an idiot, but one cannot simply brush aside the massive excessive and needless military campaign Israel brought down on Lebanon. This is where the 2006 war was a failure because it painted Israel in entirely the wrong light, when it basically decapitated Lebanon's social and economic structure. Israel won the battle but lost the war.

Israel sets very high goals for itself, and when it does not meet them, it considers that a failure. I don't think that's wrong, but I don't think that means that Israel should stop protecting itself.

On this point I disagree with you as what Israel claims on political channels is disconnected with the reality on the ground, by treating the Palestinians as prisoners, by constantly forcing them through countless check points, taking pot shots at them and over watching them with large towers, bulldozing their homes to build settlements it only further marginalizes and drives Palestinian people to terrorist act which it then claims it defends itself from.

Israeli policy on the ground provokes the very attacks it then uses as a pretext to occupy Palestinian lands. The most apparent of which can be seen on US media which so commonly shows Israeli soldiers fighting civilians with rocks, defending Isreali 'settlements' which they never explain to say that its Palestinian homes bulldozed over. This skewed perception is the reason a recent poll showed that almost half of the US population supports Israeli actions because of differing Media narrative provided.

Something that is explored in this sift http://www.videosift.com/video/Global-Pulse-Analysis-of-Gaza-Media-War-and-Reportage

I say this again and again, terrorist actions in Palestine towards Israel is a symptom not a disease, which can be found in parallel with the independence wars fought by Algerian rebels with France and Americans with the English and many others.

So...ok. What's the other option for Israel? What's the plan?

First pull out, bulldoze the checkpoints and the walls, open the borders, remove all of the settlements, release all of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel, call off any pending assassinations, restore the borders to where they were in '67, then peace?

I suppose the flip answer is "that's a good start," but I think you'll agree that there isn't a hell of a lot of trust on either side.

Let's say for the sake of discussion Israel did all of those things, and then there were a couple of rocket attacks and a suicide bombing in the space of a month.

What do you think the right response for Israel would be then? I'm not saying that I know, and I realize that this is a rather extended hypothetical, but I'd rather have a relatively friendly discussion about how all this is going to end than an endless discussion of blame assignment.

Everyone else has the finger-pointing covered, I think.

I would add that I found one semi-decent pro-Israel clip (not the one I posted this evening) that wasn't war-porn, Faux News, lame propaganda, or softcore of Israel's fighting chicks in 15-odd pages of YouTube. Certainly the "grassroots" media is with the Palestinians, whatever the credentialed journos think.

Edit: Oh, and do I think Israel should have or needs nukes? No. There's no one to use them on, anyway. Do I think they'll give them up, any more than I think India, Pakistan, or China will? No. Do I think they'll ever use them? No. Do I think that there's a far greater possibility of an Iranian nuclear weapon going off? Uh, yes.

Another Edit: As to comparisons with those colonial wars. The salient difference between the colonial struggles you mentioned and the conflict in Israel is that neither side in this conflict has anywhere to go back to. I'd say a closer comparison are the U.S./Native American wars, unfortunately.

Maybe that's a philosophical difference between the typical American response to Israel's actions and the typical European response - some Europeans view the conflict through the prism of their colonial experience, and therefore see the struggle as between colonizer and native population, and most Americans...don't.

It's not just the israeli government but all the zionists are exploiting and cashing in on that (alleged atrocities during WWII). It looks like the mossad and their army is putting the SS and the Gestapo to shame with their current activities...

Solvent, for someone who says "question, think, and understand," you sure seem to eat up the holocaust denial stuff. I mean, did they pay off all of those elderly jews to lie to the Shoah Foundation? No, I forgot, we're all "in" on the conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_Foundation

>> ^Yehoshua:
First pull out, bulldoze the checkpoints and the walls, open the borders, remove all of the settlements, release all of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel, call off any pending assassinations, restore the borders to where they were in '67, then peace?

That would be a good start but this will never be initiated by the Israelis or the Palestinians, the only real power broker that could bring both parties to the table and diplomatic relations would be the US and the EU, without taking the sides of either party.

The US is too pro-Israel and too politically stubborn to stand up to Israel even though bringing this to a finality would resolve alot of middle eastern hostility to America. The Arabs see Israeli pilots in American planes dropping American bombs (even though most GCC states buy arms wholesale from the US themselves a fact under reported in local arab media).

The US should bring forward GCC states to the table as well and enforce their acceptance of Israel as a state. The sheer idiocy imposed in the Middle East against Israel is retarded Kindergarten stuff, simply used to divert public attention away from their own corrupt governments something especially seen in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

UN forces would be needed to arrange security zones and provide disengagement, neither Israel nor Hamas would accept either as a security component in any shape or form. UN Peace keeping forces could be brought in and provide the same middle man entity as it did in the Balkan conflicts. Jerusalem would be best created as a separate state within a state along the lines of the Vatican to prevent religious tensions between both religious groups as there extremist orthodox Jews and Muslims.

With such imposition attacks would be far more rare as the majority of the population would be accepting of these terms and thus these attacks would gain no political or social traction, an unwilling population who sees no benefit and loss of hope through attacks becomes friendly and would oust terrorist themselves, this is not the case clearly now, as IDF bombs them so they support retaliation. Though it would not guarantee it as too much blood has been split, on both sides. But this is what happens when you let a conflict fester for 60 years.

Am surprised you think that hostile actions could only come from Palestine and not Israel. Israel is not exactly saintly when it comes to being rational in its application of force.

Even within Israel and Jewish communities around the world there is large dissent over IDF actions in Gaza as they have seen this happen time and time again and know that such hostile actions coupled with large civilian deaths (a third of which are children) would only create blow back.

The problem with Israel's arsenal of Nukes is that its a secret and was only discovered when an Israeli brought forth information about it. Your claim later on is false I believe, I don't trust any nation with nukes I do not believe one nation or the other is more sensible when it comes to the application of nuclear weapons.

To say Iran would detonate a nuke is to take that situation and not go into the details of what actually occurred, the IAEA has stated time and time again that Iran has no nuclear weapons programs. Iran as a whole is in economic straits and possess none of the technology to actually create a nuclear weapon. Iran's stance and progression and threats towards those means however is simply a symptom of the hypocritical notion that some nations can be trusted with nuclear technology and not others, not to mention the sudden international attention acquisition of nuclear arms creates. Look at how the US rushed to North Korea to placate it to disarm its nuclear programs. But I digress.

However I know full well that the scenario you and I propose will never see the light of day. Because no one gives a shit really.

>> ^Yehoshua:
Solvent, for someone who says "question, think, and understand," you sure seem to eat up the holocaust denial stuff. I mean, did they pay off all of those elderly jews to lie to the Shoah Foundation? No, I forgot, we're all "in" on the conspiracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_Foundation


I believe Solvent's point is that the holocaust has been used countless times to justify extremist action by Israel. The "Never again" idea, when in effect Israel is committing the very actions itself towards another set of people.

Anti-semitism is also used to nullify any criticism put forward against Israel. Countless authors and commentators have been labelled as such when all they were doing was looking at Israel foreign policy. I have been called anti-semitic countless times because of my stance towards this issue. Even though am a misanthrope.

Being labeled anti-semitic is a very effective way of mislabeling and nulling valid concerns brought forward, just as much as being labeled anti-American, communist, liberal, and so on. As it brings preconceived notions in the audience.

I'll just disagree briefly with your interpretation of what Solvent said - he said "alleged atrocities." There's no "maybe there was an atrocity or two, maybe there wasn't." At this point in history, given the staggering amount of documentary and testamentary evidence of the premeditated murder of millions of civilians for reasons of religion, race, politics, and sexual orientation, there can be no denying of the Holocaust.

As to applying the label of anti-semitism. I do think that someone is anti-semitic when they call for the destruction of the State of Israel. Now, I feel that plenty of people bandy about the anti-semitic label in the context of political criticism too easily - certainly the State of Israel is deserving of critique in a number of areas, none of which rise to the level of advocating its destruction.

Still, when people tell me that the Israelis are behaving like Nazis, or that Zionism is Nazism, I consider them anti-semitic, because I know what makes a Nazi a Nazi, and that practically everyone agrees that the Nazis were as pure evil as you can get, and had to be crushed with violence. If Nazi=Pure Evil and Israel=Nazi, then they must think that Israel=Pure Evil, then it seems evident that they think Israel should be destroyed.

If Israel is destroyed, many many many Jews die, who are not pure evil, and that, again, is anti-semitic.

Tomorrow I'll write up a response to your prior post, because I think you give a shit, and I know I give a shit, and probably some other people on here would actually prefer discussion instead of jingoism.

It seems unfortunate to me that people of a narrow minded militant ideology perpetually remain in power in Israel. While enforcing a population as subjects void of their own self determination, Israel is increasingly losing any moral authority they propose to have. Israel's proposed goals and it's actions have been on a self-defeating path for a long time now. Blaming civilians for being bombed isn't working as well anymore. I've never seen such a worldwide shift of opinion against Israel's actions.

here here

Ok, so you added some good details to this unilateral plan for peace; the UN comes in and enforces it, the US and EU broker the agreements.

Then there would be far fewer attacks on Israel; I agree. Still, what does Israel do when one or more of those attacks occurs? I feel like you didn't answer my question earlier. If no one dies, I presume you'd say Israel should sit tight and continue to maintain a peace. At what point would Israel be justified in ending a peace in response to an attack?

I also can plainly see the potential for some whackjob Israeli showing up in a mosque with a rifle; it happened once before. However, there's a large difference between one murderous, identifiable zealot unconnected to the Israeli government, which is the kind of attack that has never met with the approval of the Israeli people, and a suicide bombing or a rocket barrage, which has been accepted as a valid tactic by the vast majority of the Palestinian people.

To Geo, if you've never seen such a "worldwide shift of opinion against Israel's actions," then I must ask if you've ever read the news before? Israel has always been castigated for military action, this reaction by the international community looks like nothing new to me, except insofar as it was possibly more supportive than it has been in the past of Israel's right to defend itself.

Furthermore, you might as well flip your first statement around and apply it to Gaza and the West Bank - Israel has rotated through various governments that push land-for-peace, aggressive peace talks, and of course military action. The Palestinians have, in my experience, more often had leadership interested in pursuing military action.

semetic does not equal jewish.

claiming to have divine right of your race to take something away from others is about as close to nazi as you can get. both sides go that route as the heart of the argument, but israel is in the wrong now.

now it's just a numbers game with body count. pretty cut and dry. a person is dead no matter how you kill them or what your intent is.

there is no solution in any of their (islamist/jewish) minds except total destruction of the other side... so the solution is to swat both of their behinds equally. i vote the chinese settle this. they have the manpower.

In this context, yes semitic means Jewish.

Are there Israeli settlers? Yes. Have they sometimes had government support and sometimes not? Yes. Do some of those settlers think they have a divine right to settle in the West Bank and Gaza strip? Yes.
However, the State of Israel has never claimed a divine right to take something away from the Palestinians. Israel does claim a right to exist, which is not recognized by Hamas.

The Nazis weren't about "taking something away from others" - that's simply thievery; they were primarily focused on the extermination of inferior races and persons, even to the detriment of their war effort.

Yes, if someone is dead, they are dead, but it does matter how they died.

And finally, there are certainly plenty of individuals involved in this conflict who believe that peace is attainable without the "total destruction of the other side."

what drugs are you on?

german word for war ´krieg´, means to steal(invade and take away)! so you are sayin that the goal of all of hitlers invasions were "extermination of inferior races and persons"? you need to remove what ever is stuck up your arse, so you might start to think clearly one day....

This MP is an idiot with a long history of supporting Palestinian causes. The BBC are protraying it a s a split in jewish opinion brought on by the conflict in Gaza like he's suddenly found a conscience. usual drivel.

"german word for war ´krieg´, means to steal(invade and take away)! so you are sayin that the goal of all of hitlers invasions were "extermination of inferior races and persons"? you need to remove what ever is stuck up your arse, so you might start to think clearly one day...."

What loony planet are you on tofu? Seriously, you dont think the nazis were all about roungding up and exterminating inferior races in the occupied terrtories? Go and read up on the invasion of russia, to claim anything else is right up there with holocaust denial.

jeez, I dont know why im bothering, looking for serious political insight on videosift is like trying to learn about the migration patterns of geese by reading a daffy duck comic.

>> ^Yehoshua:
...Then there would be far fewer attacks on Israel; I agree. Still, what does Israel do when one or more of those attacks occurs?

Perhaps we can take note of the civil rights struggle during the 60's in the US by employing civil disobedience in the form of nonviolent opposition, it really removes the ammo (so to speak) from the "other side" of an argument. Opponents to Israel would find it a lot harder to rally support if Israel was not aggressive in it's defense or acquisition of land.

While nonviolence has limitations and may not result in a quick fix, I feel in the long run it is the more admirable, and arguably the more effective tactic overall.

>> ^Thumpa28:
This MP is an idiot with a long history of supporting Palestinian causes. The BBC are protraying it a s a split in jewish opinion brought on by the conflict in Gaza like he's suddenly found a conscience. usual drivel.
"german word for war ´krieg´, means to steal(invade and take away)! so you are sayin that the goal of all of hitlers invasions were "extermination of inferior races and persons"? you need to remove what ever is stuck up your arse, so you might start to think clearly one day...."
What loony planet are you on tofu? Seriously, you dont think the nazis were all about roungding up and exterminating inferior races in the occupied terrtories? Go and read up on the invasion of russia, to claim anything else is right up there with holocaust denial.
jeez, I dont know why im bothering, looking for serious political insight on videosift is like trying to learn about the migration patterns of geese by reading a daffy duck comic.


so now we have another 'P'member that thinks the nazis motivation for war was "extermination of inferior races and persons". im lost. is it just me or have there been a lot of ´P´members defending israel in here recently. strange.

Lets not get too fixated on conspiracy theories. Both Farhad and Yehoshua (and others) have made their points eloquently whilst other sifters, both P and non-P, have made brutish remarks without much thought.

I for one hope they go a few more rounds. More entertaining and in general better informed then most news channels about the same topic.

"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity."

Getting back to the video, Gentlemen and Ladies...

It does seem the fellow, is quite aged, and may not quite a bit more then any of us. Its called, wisdom of years. He explained his thoughts on the subject. The subject, is one in which, no one will win. But isn't that the real meaning of war?

Both sides, Hamas and the goverment of Israel, have a long list of crimes. They are represented of their people. Neither side will come to the table, sue for peace, and apologize for their crimes. They do not feel they have to. They explain this every day of this conflict, and years if not decades before hand. Their explaination can be summed up as "The other guy punched me more, therefore, I'm within my right, to punch back."

The reference of the Nazi War Party of Germany, to Israel, does have a scary list of similarities then differences. It may be a sad fact, for all of us, who had hoped, Israel, would become a good country.

Both goverments (the Nazis and Israel) have:

1) A people who have been beaten, for years prior, with their backs to the wall, and no where to run.
2) Have at their arsenel, the lastest weaponry and tactics known to mankind.
3) An arrogance that anything within their realm of power and control, is their business and not the World's.
4) Do not feel they have to abide by any rules or laws, regardingly, importantly, towards civilians caught in conflicts.
5) Their news agencies report the 'truth' and disallow independant review by outside reporters.

Given this conflict, I think Israel, may have lost a good deal of 'good will' from many countries that took decades to build. What the UN will do or not, is an irrelavent subject at best, ladies and gentleman. What any one country or group of countries will do, is not very likley to suceed. The two sides in conflct have lost their soul to a demon. Its the civilians, both in Palestine and Isreal who suffer right now. Do not belittle their plighty, fighting over pathetic and useless exchanges of words, in an infantesmal display of 'who's dick is bigger'.

Pray for those, who wish peace in lands caught in hell. Regardless of their religion, their skin, or even the cloths they wear. Pray for the mothers, who's children die from hatred. Pray for the children, who will never see their parents, aunts and uncles for the next holiday.

And when your done, come back, and hold back your negative emotions to those in this forum, or the views they hold. Write your words with thought, understanding, compassion and most of all, wisdom. Apologize, if it seems, you offended other's views. Because, that is indeed how this conflict arouse from.....

....a long, long, time ago.

Petty, conflict is petty.

c-c-c-c-comb breaker.

Its all bullshit, and a waste of atomic energy.

>> ^Yehoshua:
Ok, so you added some good details to this unilateral plan for peace; the UN comes in and enforces it, the US and EU broker the agreements. At what point would Israel be justified in ending a peace in response to an attack?

This is a wrong way of looking at the situation as you are searching for some kind of allowance to when Israel can use it's military power in response to an attack when we are discussing a peace deal. Such terms can never be defined and have never formed any part of a peace deal. Cessation of terrorist activity yes but not a stipulation of when retaliation can occur. Its unrealistic.

I find it best to look at parallels in other conflicts and how the peace treaty was worked out, in Northern Ireland you had a concrete disengagement from both sides, an agreement to end hostilities, a firm declaration of no favored status from the UK which ultimately lead to peace. This is now the kind of situation we require in the Middle East peace process.

Previous peace engagements have failed due to forced concessionary actions by Israel towards Palestine. In the 2003 Road map for peace article 1 stipulated an end to settler expansions in the West Bank, this was refused by Sharon who claimed that settlements cannot stop in the West bank. Then we had numerous 'reservations' put in place by Israel towards the peace plan - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=297230

One of which was a complete dismantlement of terrorist organizations before the implementation of the rest of the articles of the Road map to peace, something I always found an unrealistic expectation as its impossible to control the numerous groups that hold extremist views against Israel ranging from pure jihad against Jews to complete annihilation of the State of Israel. The Palestinian people do not have the refined policing force that could prevent and guarantee such action.

Furthermore it stipulated the complete need to disarm the Palestinian people, which is a completely unrealistic thing to ask towards a people that have been fighting a war against occupation. You cannot expect them to suddenly trust your 'word' that you will remain committed to the articles that relate Israeli concessions to Palestinian. All of which were laced with phrases like "Subject to security conditions, Israel will work to restore Palestinian life to normal: promote the economic situation, cultivation of commercial connections, encouragement and assistance for the activities of recognized humanitarian agencies."

This is not a peace process, this is forced concessions on the Palestinians. Bush left the region, the IDF entered Gaza and killed a Palestinian and the cycle of violence escalated again.

Suicide bombing or a rocket barrage, which has been accepted as a valid tactic by the vast majority of the Palestinian people.

Unfortunately the Palestinian people do not have the military assistance and help of the US to allow them to purchase F-16s, Apache attack helicopters, M-16s and other weapons. Israel launched countless rocket attacks over the areas designed to essentially assassinate leaders. What kind of impression does this create in the Palestinian people?

The Palestinians have, in my experience, more often had leadership interested in pursuing military action.

The Palestinians support these attacks because they exist under Israeli occupation, I find it fascinating that you do not look into the sheer conditions that Israel imposes on the Palestinian people which to me explain their armed resistance, from the separation wall, to check points, to arbitrary incursions, to open air prison, to blockades, to home bulldozing, to large scale bombings and destruction that we have witness over the last few weeks.

As I said again terrorist action is a symptom not a disease in Palestine, the Israelis gave no other option to many Palestinians who resist the occupational actions. To us this may seem like lunacy but then again we haven't lived most our lives under occupation.

I don't condone alot of their actions, I believe alot of it is counter productive, but am not living in those conditions and I cannot simply brush aside these attacks and claim that they are simply being stubborn, that they are all extremist or all are seeking martyrdom. Because we have seen such sacrifices and terrorist actions in previous conflicts.

Furthermore we must remember the political time frame of these attacks in Israel, with the failure to form a coalition government Kadima leader Tzipi Livni informed President Peres in October, that general elections will have to take place on February 10th 2009.

Likud (Benjamin Netanyahu) and Kadmia (Tzipi Livni) are the major contenders to win over the Knesset, both are trying to replicate the momentum of change generated in the US elections. Both have the problem of seeming old and tired without the necessary 'change' aspect, Bibi had lead Israel before and Livni is number 2 in Olmert's office. Though Livni edges out being a woman and a new face.

One of the major striking points that Likud pushed forward was that Kadima being the Sharon party that imposed the Gazan withdrawal and is committed to the road map to peace would be too soft on Palestinians as a whole and endanger the Israeli national security. Likud also refuses to negotiate over Jerusalem.

With the recent military actions there is no longer a question of softness with regards to Kadima and the Palestinian people. This would work favorably towards assuring a victory in the Knesset for Livni.

But at what cost to the peace process?

However recent polls show that Likud is still in the lead with 29 seats. Not surprising since the Gaza pullout and the corruption charges leveled at Olmert. But we need to see how the international pressures that Livni is reaching out for will shape the public perceptions.

We shall see, there is disengagement taking place now, and truce has been declared with Israel withdrawing from Gaza soon.

Americans are a fiction. There's no such things as a American language or culture and no unique genetic American makeup.

The American language is English and its unique culture of freedom and commerce allows many disparate groups of people to live as one nation. Anyone can become an American. There are both Jewish and Arab-Americans and lo, they're not killing in the streets.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side..

Arab nations have no interest in getting in a prolonged war with Israel, its political and economic suicide. Both Saudi Arabia and Eygpt have normalized relations with Israel through American policy of paying people off.

Arab nations could easily absorb ALL the "Palestinians" if they wanted to. Why would Israel object to people who want to kill them moving away? And if your cynical idea that the Saudis and Egyptians were "paid off" to have peace is accurate, isn't that better than the endless war and "Israeli cruelty" bemoaned here?

Palestinians have been allowed to flee into GCC states for years even though there is no firm Palestinian government or passport. There are huge Palestinian populations and refugee camps in every GCC state.

"Refugee camps" implies that the Palestinians aren't welcome in their new countries. They're still being used as pawns, victims of "Zionism". Seems a lot of Arab monarchs depend on hatred of the Jews to keep their power. Old habits die hard.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

By your logic you should move out and give back all the lands to American Indians which were murdered by colonists. The land of Jerusalem was occupied by every religious and ethnic denomination over the course of time, its fallacious to claim one ethnic group deserves the land more then the other. This isn't the time of the Crusades.

The American Indians were not "native" to the Americas but crossed the land bridge that used to exist between Russia and Alaska. Not only do American Indians have full American citizenship but their own nations. There is no mandate among the American Indian nations to attack and kill Euro and other Americans. Unlike the Jews, Indians of the Americas were not spread across 80 countries with no homeland to speak of.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

Israel isn't surrounded by enemies on every side, a common myth peddled by Israel's apologists, American dollars have bought the tacit tolerance and indifference of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Lebanon simply wishes to be left alone to be able to rebuild after it was punished for the actions of Hezboallah. Syria was bombed by IDF planes about a possible nuclear site of which details are murky and under reported because there is no conclusive evidence of it. The only nation consistently bombing people using high tech is Israel, who wanted to go as far as bombing Iran and destabilizing the region further when no nuclear weapons have been developed.

Which is the only nation in the Middle East with nuclear weapons? Israel.

If "Palestine" had nukes they would've already have used them. There is no way a Palestinian 'state' can ever be allowed to exist, because it would become just another launchpad for hamas attacks.

>> ^quantumushroom: The American language is English and its unique culture of freedom and commerce allows many disparate groups of people to live as one nation. [...] The American Indians were not "native" to the Americas but crossed the land bridge that used to exist between Russia and Alaska.

Contradictory arguments. Native Americans come by land bridge, and European settlers arrived there by sea, by historical definition that you use to claim Israeli rights to settle, the Americas thus belong solely to the Native American people who were there beforehand.

Furthermore you conveniently ignore the conflicts between Native American Indians and Europeans/Americans who at the time believed in 'Manifest Destiny' of the formation of the United States of America.

Racism and intolerance with a generally misunderstanding of the plight of American Indians still exists today both in Canada and the US. But no one really cares about Native American Indian issues.

THEIR land 5000 years ago.

Your claim of Israeli ownership is false with a through reading of history which shows the land being occupied by various ethnic and religious backgrounds.

So Israel could in effect belong to the Ottomans, Persians, Muslims and so on and so on depending on how far in history ones goes. You also omit the often mentioned reason for religious Jewish belief in holding Judea and Samaria, the belief of the 'Land of Israel' promised by God to the Jewish people in the old Testament.

Arab nations could easily absorb ALL the "Palestinians" if they wanted to.

By that logic you are basically stipulating that any and all conflict and civilian death is justified if there is avenue for people to be forced to flee, and should be absorbed by neighboring states. Which stems from your belief that Palestinians have no claim to the land when they in fact do, the original agreements, subsequent treaties and UN resolutions always outlined a two state solution something agreed to by Israel and the Jews themselves.

Your hateful attitude towards ALL Arabs and Muslims is documented thoroughly in the Sift. You used to talk how all of Iraq and the Middle East should be turned into a glass parking lot. Your ideas have no firm ground in reality and application in real world situations.

wow. This guy is great. it seems realpolitik has a human side. I couldn't have thought it possible.

Boy some of you are naive. Do you really think that if Isreal bulldozed its security measures and retreated like good little kids to whatever borders you THINK would satisfy the Palestinians that anything would change? You think the Palestinians would be good little boys and girls if the UN was there as a 'peacekeeping' force? Just as the Africans what they think of the UN as a 'peacekeeping' force. The things you think would bring peace would be a bloodbath of Khamir Rouge proportions.

I stick to my original thoughts on this matter. All Palestinians should be forcibly relocated to British or American territory because those countries 'took' thier land away. All Isrealis should be forcibly relocated to Sicily because it was Italy's fault the Jews lost thier land hundreds of years ago. Isreal, 'Palestine' and the surrounding area will be unpopulated and turned into a big international museum where no one is allowed to live.

No one ever learns from history...

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Friday, January 16th, 2009 3:48pm PST - promote requested by campionidelmondo.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'israel, war crimes, nazi, zionist, gaza, mp' to 'israel, war crimes, nazi, zionist, gaza, mp, gerald kaufman' - edited by Deano

The MP is veteran politician Gerald Kaufman. I didn't realise he had been knighted. I agree with every word he says.

Admittedly my reading of middle-east politics is primitive compared to many commenters but the utter futility of what Israel is doing just boggles the mind. I guess the agenda is simply to bring war and destruction to the Palestinians and Hamas and sod what anyone else thinks.

I guess the agenda is simply to bring war and destruction to the Palestinians and Hamas and sod what anyone else thinks.

If this incredibly ignorant statement is indeed your interpretation of the events, then yes - your comprehension of the situation is indeed primitive.

Well what else are they bringing? Love and kisses? I doubt Hamas will change their agenda now and they're the ones who are in power.

Israel as a country was established by the invasion of a piece of land that had been owned by the Arabs since the 7th century AD. The Jews lost it to the Roman's.

It was established in bloodshed by forcibly taking away the land of the Palestinians (who objected of course) and bought with US dollars which built and armed the armies they used to defend themselves in the war of independance.

Just 3 years after the end of the holocaust, Jews were perpetrating similar crimes to the Palestinian people and that has not stopped.

Originally 56% of Palestine was to be ceded to the Jews (the UN mandate), does the West Bank + Gaza look like 44% of the country?

As for "why don't the Arab's help them", take a look at Afghanistan and Iraq... America is the muscle behind Israels "independence". We all remember the patriot missles parked in Israel in the 90's to stop the scud missles? When the Arabs can safely ignore the American gun to their head, Israel will cease to exist and I assure you, will turn the country in to a glass crater before they let the Arabs take it back

You want to see how brave the Israeli's are, stand America down, remove the military subsidies and let them stand on their own.

Hear hear to the minister, his speech is spot on and further more, he has the credentials to actually say what he said without being tarred as anti-semetic. Laughable that such a lauded and long time friend of Israel has called them out for what they are. The jackbooted neo-fascists of the new millenium.

Nah - Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, whatever. Name your Palestinian terrorist regime du' jour. They're all the same animal. The objective is the removal of the state of Isreal by whatever means necessary. Isreal could be as armed with only drinking straws and gentle as a Kleenex and it wouldn't matter beans to the Palestinians or other terror states.

And the Arabs DO 'help' the Palestinians... By arming them with rockets, rifles, and bombs. Iran, Syria, Lebanon - they're all funnelling weapons to the Palestinians. Maybe if the Isrealis can safely ignore the Arab gun to thier head, a peaceful solution can be found. Maybe the Arabs would be better off halting the weapons and giving more food & jobs. But the dirty secret is that the Arabs hate the Palestinians too. They just hate Isreal more and are keeping the Palestinians poor and angry so they can have a useful tool of angry terrorists to do the dirty work they're too afraid to do themselves after Isreal gave Egypt such a spankering.

That last paragraph I agree with.

But Israel has made generations worth of enemies with this latest campaign. They started it by triggering the end to the cease fire. They don't live up to their end of agreements, such as allowing in a certain number of aid trucks. They certainly don't want peace or they could have tried to maintain the last cease fire. THey no longer deserve any sympathy. They certainly do no deserve any more $$$ or weapons to keep up their wars of aggression.

You don't think it odd that they publicly stated they were going to pull out all their troops by the time Obama stepped into office? Death from bombing and white phosphorous cannot be used as a political tool to shore up your party's support. The Israeli leaders might be just as bad as Hamas in terms of peace for its citizens.

Israel lost this conflict. It didn't destroy Hamas. It didn't stop the attacks. It only fermented stronger resistance against itself. That is a strategic and political failure.

It's main weapon of psychologically scaring the Arab world with superior firepower has again amounted to nothing, first with Hezboallah and now with Hamas.

A superior technologically sophisticated armed forces could not destroy a small guerrilla army within an enclosed area. Israel pounded Gaza, a third of the causalities were civilians. It was essentially teaching the 'natives' a lesson.

To simply state that all Palestinians want nothing but perpetual war is to ignore what Israel has continuously done for the last 60 years. It's not surprising. It reaps the seeds that itself has sowed over the many years of unilateral military actions and assassinations.

I have no problem with a country using whatever means are necessary to protect its population from attack. I'm not a hypocrite, so that right is extended both ways. But, if you aren't prepared for a response from a far superior military force then you then DON'T ATTACK. Duh.

Is the position of the Palestinian people unfair? Sure. But in the past Isreal has shown it is more than willing to let Palestinians live and work in Isreal as long as they behave themselves. But to keep the people safe, they took some pretty draconian steps. From the Isreali perspective it is necessary to defend its citizens and I don't blame them for it.

Until Isreal pushed the Palestinians out of Gaza and built thier big wall they were getting hit with car bombs regularly. The bombing has all but ceased. Unfair or not - like it or not - the defense measures were effective. Hamas knew this all too well and the terrorist goons were reduced to lame rocket attacks because they can no longer drive bus bombs into nightclubs, schools, and crowded markets.

Boo hoo hoo. What a shame. The Palestinians made thier bed. Now they get to sleep in it. If they find the accomodations are not to thier liking, they need to stop being stupid and start living peacefully. The choice is their. Attack and get completely wiped out by vastly superior Isreali forces, or give up on thier dream of 'wiping out' Isreal and learn to live where they're at.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
The choice is their. Attack and get completely wiped out by vastly superior Isreali forces, or give up on thier dream of 'wiping out' Isreal and learn to live where they're at.


Yes, they should learn to live in the ghetto that Israel created, controls, and maintains.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

Ha.

I love the hypocrisy of "Don't fight someone stronger then you" arguments. That kind of thinking justifies just about every kind of oppression known to mankind.

Go tell that to the Jews circa 1939.

I'd say that it is a ghetto created, controlled, and maintained by the intolerance of the Arabians around them and that Isreal's defensive measures are a convenient scapegoat. The difference is that Isreal has very good reasons for implementing its defensive measures, and the surrounding Arabians have NO excuse whatsoever beyond thier political goal to have a bunch of angry Palestinian stooges do thier dirty work.

Israel is trying to create secure borders. The Arabs are equally at fault for not allowing the Palestinians to cross borders, get jobs, or make a living. Don't focus myopically on the rock and completely ignore the hard place.

Isreal is there, and isn't going anywhere, and that is the only excuse these Hamas and Hezbo thugs need to instigate violence. Isreal is entitled to defend itself in any way it sees fit from aggression. Comparing Jews in 1939 to what Isreal is doing to defend its citizens is patently absurd. Jews in 1939 were not lobbing rockets at Germans, and Isreal today is not marching Palestinians into gas chambers.

Ha. Trying to spin it like that are we?

Yeah lets make it all sound like this whole conflict started just in 2000. You know let's ignore every UN resolution shot down by the US for its buddy Israel, the incursions of Israelis on Palestinians lives. The creation of apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza.

Such an apologist for Israeli actions. Israel created Hamas and Hezboallah through its own policy actions, a blow back effect that can be seen in the way the West and Israel dealt with the Arab world in the past.

For your information the Arab world has provided jobs and living for the Palestinians all over the Middle East.

Stop trying to disassemble historical facts. If Israel wanted peace it would actively pursue it, not force concessions on the Palestinians, assassinate its leaders and target its civilians.

There's no spin. It's an accurate and fair assessment of the situation. There are more players in the game than just Isreal and the Palestinians. There's plenty of blame to spread around and the situation is not the sole pervue of any one side.

I have more historical perspective than you perhaps, but I recall quite well the peace efforts of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and early 00s where Isreal made concession after concession after concession. But it was never enough. The objective of the militant Pals is not peaceful coexistence. It is the complete elimination of the Isreali state.

Therefore you and others like you are operating from a false position that only exists within the confines of your fantasies. You probably haven't been around long enough, and so you don't remember that this is all ground that has been covered before over and over and over.

You think that Isreal is to blame for this mess because you think there is some mythical 'concession' Isreal could make that would make the Palestinians happy. Baloney. The so-called 'peace' talks of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and early 00s proved unequivocally that there are NO concessions Isreal can make that will satisfy the Palestinians. The only thing that will satisfy them is when Isreal is booted out of 'thier' country.

So your argument is an utterly false magician's choice, and I think even yo know this deep down. Isreal is doing what it thinks it needs to do in order to prevent the deaths of thier citizens. That's the right of any country, and the main duty of a government. I don't blame them for that. They want security from a bunch of uncompromising, half-insane terrorists. Who doesn't?

What the Palestinians need to do is reign in thier extremists and show they are willing to give Isreal a peaceful option that will actually work. Frankly, I don't think that is possible because there are too many factions in the Middle East (Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, et al) that are too intent on keeping a bunch of poor, angry Palestinians around as a stable of useful idiots to funnel bombs to.

Personally, I see no difference between the militants that the Israelis claim to be trying to snuff out, and the Israelis. They are both using violence to beget more violence. And I do have to agree that what the Israelis are doing is VERY much like the Nazis in many, many ways. Propaganda, censorship, senseless killing for political and material gain...In fact, while on that subject, the land that they occupy was taken from the Palestinians without any regard for how they might feel about it. Are we surprised that they aren't happy? If anyone should be pissed off enough to become violent, I don't think it is the Israelis. They've made out literally like bandits. They were given land that didn't belong to them, proceeded to procure more land that didn't belong to them when those who originally owned said land fought back and, to boot, they treat the original inhabitants as if they are subhuman.

They act without humanity, humility, or regard for anyone else or anything else. They don't even respect any of the countries without who's support they'd be wiped off the face of the map. I am still reeling from shock that they had the audacity to bomb three UN sites in Gaza. And are they gonna actually see any charges for war crimes for the use of illegal weapons? I doubt it with the way the world treats them like overindulged children. What they really need is a good smack on the rear to teach them their place in this world, and perhaps a little respect for other human beings.

Personally I am sick to be American when I think about how much money we give them to maintain their unscrupulous military! I say we pull their funding for a while and see how humble that makes them...that is if they aren't obliterated without us funding their military.

Actually, you cant sue Israel for warcrimes since they are 1 of the 2 countries in this world who do not recognize the international war tribunal. The other being the US BTW ;-)

And before I forget, an oldy but goody:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Palestine-Is-Still-The-Issue-award-winning-documentary

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
There's no spin. It's an accurate and fair assessment of the situation. There are more players in the game than just Israel and the Palestinians.

Oh blah blah blah, there is no point reading the rest of it.

You say the Arab world is supporting Palestinian efforts but don't acknowledge the large military and political help the Israelis receive from the US. Who they circumvent by attacking Palestinian areas anytime their big brother isn't looking. Note how vicious attacks got post 9/11 (under guise of fighting global terrorism not local oppression) and before transition of power in the US.

The Israels making concessions is a facade, the Road map to peace which I mentioned in my previous comments clearly was a progress to peace that Kadima's Sharon perused. The Palestinians at the time agreed to it, what happens next? Israel unilaterally imposes 'reservations' on the peace process and dismantles the no expansionary Israeli settlement clause in the articles. One of the key arguments Palestinians have with Israel.

Israeli demands and their concessions are out of balance, a 1% adjustment in Palestinian lands to Israelis remove all economic and political areas out of Palestinian lands. This is all while more lands in the West bank are criss crosses and ceded back into Israel with walls, towers and troops moving in to defend these new settlements from people whose homes just got bulldozed.

Israel doesn't want peace, all it wants is to keep the peace process in formaldehyde. The seeming appearance of perusing peace while it builds walls, sniper towers, blockades, and walls the Palestinians in further and further. That's why Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world do not really take their declarations of seeking peace seriously because it's always the same bullshit.

But you know I can see why you would think otherwise, Israel has AIPAC, WINEP, MEMRITV and a thousand other media apologists to fight the media perspective on how this conflict is read out in the rest of the world. I quote:

"Simultaneously, the Israeli media has been towing the government line to such a degree that no criticism of the war has been voiced on any of the three local television stations. Indeed, the situation has become so absurd that reporters and anchors are currently less critical of the war than the military spokespeople. In the absence of any critical analysis, it is not so surprising that 78% of Israelis, or about 98% of all Jewish Israelis, support the war."
http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon01162009.html

"The Immigrant Absorption Ministry announced on Sunday it was setting up an "army of bloggers," to be made up of Israelis who speak a second language, to represent Israel in "anti-Zionist blogs" in English, French, Spanish and German."
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html

""We used to hold signs at protests reading 'The occupation will corrupt'," she told me. "Now, we can see that it has [come to pass]. As a society, we have lost our ability to see clearly; we have let fear blind us. Once, calling someone a racist was the harshest accusation you could make. Later, you began to hear people say 'I know I'm a racist, but...'; nowadays [during Cast Lead], we heard 'I know I'm talking like a Nazi, but at least the Nazis knew how to deal with their enemies'."" Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know. But I don't like those analysis which refers to 1967 as the year when Israel "lost its soul"--whatever that means. It never had a soul to be begin with.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/21/gaza-protest

But most disturbing of all was the graffiti they daubed on the walls of the ground floor. Some was in Hebrew, but much was naively written in English: "Arabs need 2 die", "Die you all", "Make war not peace", "1 is down, 999,999 to go", and scrawled on an image of a gravestone the words: "Arabs 1948-2009".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-israel-samouni-family

"Estimates for the proportion of civilian deaths among the 1,360 Palestinians killed range from more than half to two-thirds. Politicians, diplomats and journalists are by and large shying away from the obvious, namely that Israel has been deliberately targeting Palestinian civilians and the very infrastructure of normal life, in order to – in the best colonial style – teach the natives a lesson."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/20/gaza-israelandthepalestinians

You say the Arab world is supporting Palestinian efforts but don't acknowledge the large military and political help the Israelis receive from the US.

I acknowledge it, but I consider it non-germaine to the topic. The issue is whether countries have the right to defend their citizens? In Isreal's case, there is a large population of armed partisans, geurilla fighters, terrorists, and agent provokateurs right at the door. Sadly, among the population of bad guys are a lot of innocents who don't have anywhere else to go. It is grossly unfair.

But suppose Isreal makes nice, gives Gaza to the Palestinians, pulls down the walls, and disbands the border security. Now the Palestinians can move freely. What happens next? History has proven for the past 60 years that if Isreal doesn't have walls, checkpoints, buffer zones, and blockades then they get car explosions, suicide bombers, and dead citizens. Past treaties made MANY concessions to the Palestinains but the violence never stopped.

Clearly some of you are of the mind that the Isreali government should put its citizens at risk from the bad guys so as to relieve the pressure on the innocent Palestinians. You may also believe that doing this will make the bad guys less prone to violence, and make the Palestinian people in general 'more favorable' to Isreal. I would ask you to supply the logic and evidence that leads you to that conclusion, because it runs counter to over 50 years of evidence.

The kicker is that you want to put the most incompetent organization on the planet (the U.N.) in charge of Isreal's security. No one in thier right mind could believe that is a good idea.

Personally I still think my solution is best. 1. American gives Rhode Island to the Palestinians and relocates them. 2. Italy gives Sicily to Isreal and relocates them. 3. Jerusalem and all the surrounding region is turned into a historical landmark where no one is allowed to live.

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Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, January 19th, 2009 1:17pm PST - promote requested by campionidelmondo.

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Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, September 7th, 2009 8:01pm PDT - promote requested by campionidelmondo.