I can sympathize with this, and of course, of course, there should be the same checks and balances in this industry as in all other industries. Because the work is what it is, there are many "abusers" who are attracted to it, which is terrible, but porn in itself as an industry is not an abuse, in my opinion anyway.

Just like words are not inherently bad, but can certainly be used badly.

*humanitarian

Adding video to channels (Humanitarian) - requested by gwiz665.

Approxamately one suicide per year? She uses that as a mark against the porn industry? How many dentists kill themselves every year? We should shut down the dentistry industry!

In all seriousness, I agree with gwiz; there need to be checks and balances to make sure the workers are treated properly, but the porn industry isn't something we should (or even can) shut down.

she experienced prostitution? whoa. what a scandal! so she went on a set, got naked, had it with 12 different guys, got dressed again, took her paycheck and went home. technically, doing porn movies IS prostitution. you give your body and you get paid for doing so. in my eyes prostitution is not something that you can charge against the porn industry.

if you want to play rambo and choose to go to war, don't complain when you get killed.

I'd hit it. She's making a good points but I don't think she'll find a sympathetic audience outside of gummint busybodies and religious crusaders (wait, that's all one needs).

I tend to think the pr0n people would fight against legal prostitution.

It would be so interesting to see if there are any negative effects on the men in the industry, or even the general mindset of those guys and what they think about the women they work with

I get the fealing that she is not very bright.

However I am all for people setting up sport groups reducing STD,s putting in varouse laws for porn businesses.

I would not want the law to affect couples that upload there own videos,


I don't understand why women that work in porn don't just set up there own website, there r plenty of free streaming technologies cheep hosting and pre done billing systems. Maby the government should help women that do crap porn into decent porn that thay can run themselves.

as with most problems the real solutoin is just education and redistribution of wealth.

^Education yes, but redistribution of wealth? Only slackers ask for that. With education, you don't need "redistribution of wealth".

Like anything, if you prohibit something (or in this case pretend it doesn't exist), you're going to end up with a lack of regulation and that's when people get hurt.

Some of these comments make me want to punch someone in the throat.

Only "gummint busybodies and religious crusaders" are going to be sympathetic? I think that you have spent too much time on the internet. It doesn't take crazy people to realize that nothing good comes from porn and that it is a destructive, disgusting, immoral industry. The majority of sane people believe this. It is not an unusual, backward, or unfounded notion. I don't think that people of my parents' generation realize the extent to which their sons and daughters are falling victim to the lie and becoming involved in or addicted to porn.

"If you want to play rambo and choose to go to war, don't complain when you get killed."

If we create a market for this filth, someone is going to do it. You remind me of those people during the industrial revolution that benefitted from child labor and deadly, abusive working conditions and said, "The poor dears." But, of course, the poor always have the faculties to raise themselves out of their situations. They choose to lead lives of poverty, right?

I realize that sex workers have more options than 19th century factory workers, but there is no way that working in the sex industry is psychologically healthy. Someone is always going to do it as long as the industry continues to grow.

Just like Lubben says, those who are involved defend the industry. I find that porn users defend porn like it's their firstborn. Regulate and make as many laws as you want. Porn is and always will be a plague on society.

^I disagree. That argument can be made about pretty much anything else too: nothing good comes from [pleasure], and I don't think that's a very good argument. Sure it's not psychologically healthy, but alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, fatty foods etc. etc. are not healthy either.

Also I don't think we don't create the market, the market is there. I mean the market for porn in general is there and is not "created". It's a tiny little market (if any) that exists for "porn with terrible working conditions and abused women and/or men off set". The bad thing is that we cannot tell the two apart, for the most part. If there were proper checks and balances, then we could in a sense make sure that it is done in a "good" way.

"Porn [beer, cigarettes, mcdonalds, videosift] is and always will be a plague on society."

We do have a choice. Our choices define the market. Videosift has a "market" for people who want to use time on sifting videos and debating, for instance. If we didn't want this, then the market would disappear.

Alcohol, cigarettes, and fatty foods are very, very different from porn. Cigarettes aren't as addictive as porn. 8-year-old don't often access alcohol from their computer chairs and become addicted for the remainder of their lives. Fatty food manufacturers aren't emotionally scarred and degraded. The only comparable example that you gave is drugs, and the illegal drug industry is almost as bad as porn. It is destructive to both creator and consumer.

Nothing good comes from fatty foods? I LOVE fatty foods! I can eat fatty foods without becoming addicted. My pizza consumption doesn't hurt anyone but me. The same cannot be said of porn.

And porn is not a self-existing principle. Perhaps "create" wasn't the right word to use. Porn users encourage, promote, and expand the porn industry. They don't create it.

I think making any argument for or against pornography right now requires that you make a lot of assumptions about the psychological impact that working in the sex trade has on people. For instance, I'm pretty sure I'd be emotionally scarred if I had to slaughter cows for a living but that doesn't mean the emotional impact would be the same for everyone else. I deal with this by not getting a job that requires me to kill cows. For the record, I don't even like cows.

The point is, there's a lot that needs to be carefully considered and we don't have answers to most of the major questions. It's likely that any gut emotional instinct you have for either side of the argument is probably somewhat incorrect.

Try taking a step back from your preconceived ideas on this issue and consider carefully how well founded your arguments are. As soon as I'm personally no longer being sodomized daily by coporate America to earn a paycheck I plan to really think about this issue myself.

>> ^thepinky:
Alcohol, cigarettes, and fatty foods are very, very different from porn. Cigarettes aren't as addictive as porn.

Citation needed. If you're going to make such wild claims, then I for one, need some really reliable evidence before I'll take you seriously.

The only problem with porn is weak-minded idiots that don't know their own legal rights and can't take responsibility for their own actions. Nobody can abuse you just because of a contract...no contract that requires illegal actions is legally enforceable. But it's so much easier to be a victim, isn't it?

I'm no expert, but as far as I know porn is only psychologically addictive, which cigarettes also is, and cigarettes are also physically addictive. I really disagree that porn is more addictive than cigarettes, but that's just my own observations.

pinky, you love fatty foods.. some people love crack-cocaine, that doesn't mean it's good for you.

As far as I know, the majority of female porn actors don't experience such psychological scarring. Infact it's one of the very few industries out there in which women are paid much more than men.

"Most, if not all of the scientific studies undertaken to document the effects of porn on society demonstrate various social benefits directly attributable to its availability. Drastically lower rates of sex crimes is one benefit that has been enjoyed in Sweden, Denmark, and Japan, as the porn studies listed below demonstrate."

http://solomonsrefuge.com/PornStudies.htm

^Very interesting site.

Like it or not, porn saves lives.

The systems needs enforced regulation...massively.

>> ^videosiftbannedme:
^Education yes, but redistribution of wealth? Only slackers ask for that. With education, you don't need "redistribution of wealth".



Yes because its always been the case that the people with money worked harder to get it ,

i think you will find the people that earn the most money often do the least amount of work,

Doesn't she know that Stormy Daniels is already running for Senate?

Seriously though, while I'm all for improving the working conditions of any worker, but I think mostly they just need a Porn Actor's Guild/Union, and they'd be fine. Employee Free Choice Act, anyone?

As for banning porn itself, bad, bad idea.

How about dropping our puritanical discomfort with our own bodies, and one of the more important and wonderful parts of human relationships?

Porn caters to people's sexual fantasies. Getting rid of the porn doesn't get rid of the fantasy, it just removes a safe outlet (or alternatively, a convenient instructional video for your significant other).

I think our prudish behavior about sex leads to a large variety of our society's sex-related issues, be it unwanted pregnancies, the transmission of STDs, and possibly even some subset of sexual harassment or sexual assault.

>> ^NetRunner:
How about dropping our puritanical discomfort with our own bodies, and one of the more important and wonderful parts of human relationships?
I think our prudish behavior about sex leads to a large variety of our society's sex-related issues, be it unwanted pregnancies, the transmission of STDs, and possibly even some subset of sexual harassment or sexual assault.

I think this is spot on. America is really the only non-Islamic theocracy where someone pushing for the end to porn would be taken seriously, and I think NetRunner and QM are spot on in that it stems from a puritanical religious streak. Further, I have no proof but I'd bet my last pair of pants that this is also the reason why porn is such a huge business in America.

The sickening hate for the human body evidenced by so many religious people is, I guarantee you, more psycologically damaging than porn.

>> ^thepinky:
Alcohol, cigarettes, and fatty foods are very, very different from porn. Cigarettes aren't as addictive as porn. 8-year-old don't often access alcohol from their computer chairs and become addicted for the remainder of their lives. Fatty food manufacturers aren't emotionally scarred and degraded. The only comparable example that you gave is drugs, and the illegal drug industry is almost as bad as porn. It is destructive to both creator and consumer.
Nothing good comes from fatty foods? I LOVE fatty foods! I can eat fatty foods without becoming addicted. My pizza consumption doesn't hurt anyone but me. The same cannot be said of porn.

There's so much wrong with this post. First, alcohol and nicotine develop physical dependency. Alcohol withdrawal, unlike many drug withdrawals, can actually kill you. A person can be psycologically addicted to porn but it is exactly that, psychological. Don't even compare those.

Next, a good parent is aware of what their child is looking at on the internet. An 8 year-old getting porn is a sign of bad parenting. That said, I'd much rather an 8 year old saw the completely natural sight of a naked body, even in the act of sex, than see half of the violence in the average movie/video game.

Third, your pizza consumption (or at least some people's) does hurt people besides you... America is dying at continually younger ages of early onset heart disease, diabetes, etc., largely thanks to unhealthy diets. I guarantee you that fatty foods are not only physically responsible for more deaths in America than porn but also lead to more psychological problems in the people who develop negative body image thanks to that bad nutrition.

Well, I looked up some stuff for you.

"Mary Anne Layden, co-director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program at the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Cognitive Therapy, called porn the 'most concerning thing to psychological health that I know of existing today.'

'The internet is a perfect drug delivery system because you are anonymous, aroused and have role models for these behaviors,' Layden said. 'To have drug pumped into your house 24/7, free, and children know how to use it better than grown-ups know how to use it -- it's a perfect delivery system if we want to have a whole generation of young addicts who will never have the drug out of their mind.'

Pornography addicts have a more difficult time recovering from their addiction than cocaine addicts, since coke users can get the drug out of their system, but pornographic images stay in the brain forever, Layden said.'"

This woman's opinion is rather extreme, but to an extent I agree with her, based on things that I've seen.

I didn't say that porn addiction is worse than alcoholism. I compared it to nicotine addiction. I admit, my assertion was based on purely subjective personal opinion. I have known several people who have overcome a nicotine addiction with no lasting physical or psychological affects. On the other hand, I have known people who have tried to beat a porn habit and either failed or are still tempted, even years later. A very good friend of mine married a guy who lied to her about his porn habit. She found out about it and went through some serious trauma. He bawled like a baby when she told him that she was emotionally incapable of having sex with him unless he quit the habit. He tried and failed to quit and the marriage ended. I know no less that three other guys who quit using pornography for personal reasons. Two of them, years later, expressed to me how difficult it was to quit. At times it felt impossible. And they are both still tempted. I have another friend who is manic depressive and he says that he can't get over his emotional dependency on porn, though he has been trying for years. One guy I talked to compared porn addiction to "chasing the dragon," a phrase that is used in reference to heroine. Another guy said that porn images still haunt him.

I admit that experts can't agree on whether or not porn is "addictive." Most of them agree, on the other hand, that it is a compulsion, habit-forming, and that the effects are lasting.

Skeeve, you said that my "pizza consumption (or at least some people's) does hurt people besides you... America is dying at continually younger ages of early onset heart disease, diabetes, etc., largely thanks to unhealthy diets. I guarantee you that fatty foods are not only physically responsible for more deaths in America than porn but also lead to more psychological problems in the people who develop negative body image thanks to that bad nutrition."

I started writing a response, but then I realized that it isn't worth my time to try and explain why your porn vs. pizza comparison is bogus.

I chose selections from an article about male porn habit that addresses the subject for your reading pleasure. I have a few problems with the article. It seems to assume that only lonely and hurting people use porn, and that isn't true. Still, it makes some good points:

"How addictive is pornography?

‘I'm frightened of real sex, which is unscripted and unpredictable so I engage in pornography, which is totally under my control. But it brings intense disappointment because it is not what I'm really searching for. It's rather like a hungry person standing outside the window of a restaurant, thinking that they're going to get fed.’ That’s how one man described his porn addiction to Edward Marriott...

...Like many men, I first saw pornography during puberty. At boarding school...long before my first sexual relationship, porn was my sex education....Being away from home, my friends and I longed for love, closeness, acceptance. The women over whom we masturbated - surrogate mothers, if you like - seemed to be offering this but, of course, were never going to provide it. The untruths it taught me on top of this disappointment - that women are always available, that sex is about what a man can do to a woman - I am only now succeeding in unlearning.

...'Just like drugs, pornography provides a quick fix, a masturbatory universe people can get stuck in. This can result in their not being able to involve anyone else.’

...Men, as much as women, hunger for intimacy. For many males, locked into a life in which self-esteem has grown intrinsically entwined with performance, sex assumes a freight of demands and needs...

...It is into this troubled scenario that porn finds easy access. For in pornography, unlike in real life, there is no criticism, real or imagined, of male performance...

...Women in porn are always, in the words of the average internet site, ‘hot and ready’, eager to please...

...Men, say psychologists, also feel threatened by the ‘emotional power’ they perceive women wielding over them...they are at the same time painfully aware that their only salvation from isolation comes in being sexually acceptable to women. This sense of neediness can provoke intense anger that, all too often, finds expression in porn...

...The porn industry, of course, dismisses such talk, yet occasionally comes a glimmer of authenticity. Bill Margold, left, one of the industry's longest-serving film performers, was interviewed in 1991 by psychoanalyst Robert Stoller for his book Porn: Myths For The Twentieth Century. Margold admitted: ‘My whole reason for being in this industry is to satisfy the desire of the men in the world who basically don't care much for women and want to see the men in my industry getting even with the women they couldn't have when they were growing up. So we come on a woman's face or brutalise her sexually: we're getting even for lost dreams.'...

...As well as ‘eroticising male supremacy’, in the words of anti-porn campaigner John Stoltenberg, pornography also attempts to assuage other male fears, in particular that of erection failure. Pornography answers men's fetishistic need for visual proof of phallic potency...

...Pornography, in other words, is a lie. It peddles falsehoods about men, women and relationships. It seduces vulnerable, lonely men with the promise of intimacy, and delivers only a transitory fix. Increasingly, though, men are starting to be open about the effect of pornography. David McLeod, a marketing executive, explains the cycle: ‘I'm drawn to porn when I'm lonely, particularly when I'm single and sexually frustrated. But I can easily get disgusted with myself. After watching a video two or three times, I'll throw it away and vow never to watch another again. But my resolve never lasts very long.’

Like many men, McLeod is torn. Quick to claim that porn has ‘no harmful effects’, he is also happy to acknowledge the contradictory fact that it is ‘deadening’.

Extended exposure to pornography can have a whole raft of effects.
By the time Nick Samuels had reached his mid-20s, it was altering his view of what he wanted from a sexual relationship. ‘I used to watch porn with one of my girlfriends, and I started to want to try things I'd seen in the films.’ Married for 15 years, he admits he has carried the same sexual expectations into the marital bedroom. ‘There's been real friction over this: my wife simply isn't that kind of person. And it's only now, after all these years, that I'm beginning to move on from it. Porn is like alcoholism: it clings to you like a leech.’

...Even when in a loving sexual relationship, men who have used porn say that, all too often, they see their partner through a kind of ‘pornographic filter’. This effect is summed up by US sociologist Harry Brod, in LynneSegal's essay Sweet Sorrows, Painful Pleasures: ‘There have been too many times when I have guiltily resorted to impersonal fantasy because the genuine love I felt for a woman wasn't enough to convert feelings into performance. And in those sorry, secret moments, I have resented deeply my lifelong indoctrination into (pornography).’...

...Running through all pornography use, according to David Morgan, is the desire for control...

...The user of pornography is also psychologically on the run.
Welldon says: ‘people who use pornography feel dead inside, and they are trying to avoid being aware of that pain. There is a sense of liberation, which is temporary: that's why pornography is so repetitive - you have to go back again and again.’...

...For John-Paul Day, an Edinburgh architect, the experience of being a small boy with a dying mother drove him to seek solace in masturbation. He says he has been ‘addicted’ to pornography his entire adult life. He has attended meetings of Sex Addicts Anonymous for 12 years...

...Like drugs and drink, pornography - as Day has realised - is an addictive substance. Porn actor Kelly Cooke says this applies on either side of the camera: ‘It got to the point where I considered having sex the way most people consider getting a hamburger. But when you try to give it up, you realise how addictive it is, both for consumers and performers. It's a class A drug, and it's hell coming off it.’

The cycle of addiction leads one way: towards ever harder material...

Morgan believes ‘all pornography ends up with S&M’.
The myth about porn, as a witness told the 1983 Minneapolis city council public hearings on it, is that ‘it frees the libido and gives men an outlet for sexual expression. This is truly a myth. I have found pornography not only does not liberate men, but on the contrary is a source of bondage. Men masturbate to pornography only to become addicted to the fantasy.'..."

Read the whole article here: http://www.malehealth.co.uk/userpage1.cfm?item_id=2302

Other articles on the sibject of porn "addiction":

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772

http://men.webmd.com/guide/is-pornography-addictive

So, Pinky, I read those articles and they completely cemented my opinion for me, thank you.

I didn't disagree that pornography is addictive, just that it is psychological and not to be compared with real physically dependent addictions. Just as you said, "the panelists themselves acknowledged, there is no consensus among mental health professionals about the dangers of porn or the use of the term 'pornography addiction.'"

I also love the generalizations in these: "people who use pornography feel dead inside" right... how about: "Pornography does damage because it encourages people to make their home in shallow relationships," I know that one is bogus.

This quote is my favorite: By the time Nick Samuels had reached his mid-20s, it was altering his view of what he wanted from a sexual relationship. ‘I used to watch porn with one of my girlfriends, and I started to want to try things I'd seen in the films.’ Married for 15 years, he admits he has carried the same sexual expectations into the marital bedroom. ‘There's been real friction over this: my wife simply isn't that kind of person. And it's only now, after all these years, that I'm beginning to move on from it. Porn is like alcoholism: it clings to you like a leech.’

If his wife wont do these things with him then that is her problem, not his and definitely not porn's fault. My girlfriend and I love to watch porn together. Part of the fun is trying new things out and it keeps the sex interesting. Sex is an intensely important part of a relationship, and a marriage in which the partners don't agree on matters of sex is a marriage that shouldn't last. This is something that had been known for thousands of years by nearly every civilization... until Christianity started forcing itself into the bedroom.

As for your personal experiences, they are what they are, but a few examples of porn addiction cannot make for a suitable base for a consensus. Consider how many people are users of pornography and compare that with the number of people who have a serious problem and you will no doubt find that there are much more important issues to worry about (including America's obesity - a point which I stand by).

Anyway, I am done with this discussion as neither of us will sway the other. I'll just leave you with one more fact. The only concerted efforts to stop pornography (not including the obviously harmful child pornography), whether in the US or worldwide, have come from religious groups or feminist groups. No one else wants pornography to end.

This is a fascinating topic, and I just want to point out a few things:

Women who enter the porn industry are already psychologically damaged. Dr. Drew Pinsky, of Loveline and Celebrity Rehab, has worked with pornography actresses for many years. He says that every single one of them was abused as a child. Of course they are entering an environment that will cause more damage, but don't assume the damage starts in the industry.

All men watch porn. It's normal. It's also normal to claim otherwise when questioned by women. Women should not probe into this area of a man's life if they don't want the "disgusting" truth. Many women simply can't relate to the persistent need that visual stimulation will temporarily satisfy. Single men do it, men with girlfriends do it, married men do it, even dead men probably do it. Women have no right to judge us in this regard. That is only increasing the psychological damage that is started by our Puritan society by bringing it to a very personal and direct level.

Like the women who are psychologically damaged before doing porn, men who feel negative emotions about their desire to watch porn have other problems already. Whether it's from society's disapproval, religion's disapproval, their girlfriend's disapproval, or some combination, added to past emotional trauma and an addictive personality, those are men who have a lot of problems, not just something caused by porn. Oh, and that guy who felt bad because he had to fantasize about someone other than his sex partner... it is tragic that nobody told him that's normal, at least occasionally.

Shutting down the porn industry is impossible. Regulating it is impractical. However, I applaud anyone who provides help to women (or men) who feel "trapped" in the industry. But it's like going to skid row to help homeless people. There's nothing inherently wrong with that street, it's just where you find people who need help. It's where those people feel pressure to go, and where they feel trapped. Shutting down that street will not help anybody. Building a support system there for people to get healthy is the only intelligent action.

That's one amazing doctor, to be able to state as a fact that every single porn actress was abused as a child. Based on such idiotic statements, I'll assume he got his degree from Phoenix University Online, or out of a crackerjack box.

Wild claims really don't help either side in a discussion like this.

Skeeve, to me this statement is evidence that your perception of sex has been warped (possibly by porn?): "If his wife wont do these things with him then that is her problem, not his and definitely not porn's fault."

I don't know what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that women should consent to doing whatever a man wants to do in the bedroom? Couples have to compromise about sex as with anything else. He is saying that he can't be satisfied without doing these things, and that IS porn's fault, not his wife's.

"...a marriage in which the partners don't agree on matters of sex is a marriage that shouldn't last. This is something that had been known for thousands of years by nearly every civilization... until Christianity started forcing itself into the bedroom."

What does this even mean? And what's up the whole part about Christianity? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Christianity ruined sex or something?

If a couple can't agree on matters of sex, it's just like everything else in a relationship. They have to work it out. I agree that sex is extremely important for healthy relationships, but it isn't the MOST important thing. I know a lady who was sexually abused as a child. She remained a virgin until after her marriage. The couple soon realized that her sexual abuse had seriously undermined her ability to have a good sexual relationship. He loved her, so they went to counselors and therapy and they worked it out. They've been married for over 30 years now.

In my culture, porn is discouraged. Believe it or not, many men and women don't use it. Also, many people are virgins when they get married. Sex is kind of amazing in that if you're attracted to someone, it usually works just fine. It's as if people have been having sex for thousands of years! It's almost like it's a natural thing that people do, even without porn! It's amazing!

To me it seems obvious that if you use porn and need to fantasize about other women to perform, sex in general isn't going to be as satisfying or as intimate. I would venture to say that most people who use porn think that fantasizing about someone other than your partner is normal, even necessary. And, actually, it may be more common than not. This is the result of a diseased, confused society. It's emotional infidelity. It is neither natural nor necessary. Porn makes thousands of women feel inadequate. When guys don't use porn, their sexual partner (and perhaps some useful ideas on how to keep your sex life exciting) is all that they need for a good sex life. It worked that way for thousands of years.

MaxWilder,

I am not saying that all porn users are weird or confused or sexually deviant. I'm sure that many decent people watch porn. I do, however, believe that a world without porn would be healthier, happier, and less confused.

Not all men use porn. It's amazing to me that so many people of my generation seem to believe that. It's almost as if your comment is a checklist of lies that porn has taught you.

Most men seem to believe that women aren't as sexual as men. This is a chauvenistic idea that has been used for hundreds of years to repress the sexuality of women. It is true, however, that men are more drawn to visual stimulation.

I don't even know why I'm typing this. I'm not going to make a dent.

^And neither are we.

A man's view will always differ from a woman's on this topic.

I have male friends that have no use for Porn and can't be bothered. I have female friends that love porn (books, magazines or video) and love it as a natural progression to their tastes.

It is truly a personal thing. And I think the industry satisfies a huge sexually frustrated population out there. (Male and Female). I'm sure it eliminates allot of sex crimes. Sexually frustrated people need to relieve their tension. Not everyone has a partner in life. Face the Fact!

On the same token, Porn can also be a marriage/relationship breaker in the same way "World of Warcraft" ruins relationships. It provides an escape in an already troubled relationship. When this happens, the true problems within the relationship never get resolved and things begin to crumble.

I'm sorry but I have to take the side of "both sides" here.
1). The porn industry is demeaning to women. Checks and balances will never filter out the scum. Some companies value their “actors” and treat them professionally. Some actors are self employed and run their own websites. Pornography is a multi-million dollar a year industry and where there is that much money, there will always be filth around the edges. Porn can be offensive and disgusting when people are taken advantage of and encouraged or forced to do something that is out of their comfort zone or when things are drastically out of it’s original intent or context.

2). Sex itself is neither filthy nor ugly. When it is between two consulting adults, that’s their business whether they want to be filmed or not. Some people just seem to like filming themselves (Male and female). I personaly, would never film myself or someone else but that is just me. Porn can be sexy when both sides are enjoying it. To even imply that sex is wrong in any form is based on literature originating from Chritianity. Sexual Desire was powerful and could not be controlled by the church and was therefore deemed against God’s will.


“Obedient Christians as sexually active children of God’s will refrain even from the irrational appetite, because otherwise they are heinous fornicators.”
The making of fornication By Kathy L. Gaca
The incubus was sexual desire made real and labelled a demon before god and people were put to death by the church for having sexual thoughts.

I could go on, but like any argument like this it is not “This” is right and “That” is wrong!
There is not light without darkness and after darkness there shall always be light. Ying Yang!

I am outright shocked to see that, while marginally moving towards a more moderate position on other topics, apparently thepinky hasn't learned a single thing from the 'discussion' she 'started' almost a year ago.

Madame, I'll repeat bits of what was said in what I honestly think is the best comment regarding pornography that I've ever read online and say that it is completely and unequivocally apparent that you've been misled by the people that assigned pornography the role of the culprit in the unfortunate experiences that you've been subjected to. This was pointed out to you by many, using a variety of arguments. How you've managed to ignore all of that is beyond me.

P.S. And apparently she's still quite the troll.

>> ^thepinky:
I started writing a response, but then I realized that it isn't worth my time to try and explain why your porn vs. pizza comparison is bogus.

EDD - "The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word, because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them.

But why should you keep your head over your shoulder? Why drag about this corpse of your memory, lest you contradict somewhat you have stated in this or that public place? Suppose you should contradict yourself; what then? It seems to be a rule of wisdom never to rely on your memory alone, scarcely even in acts of pure memory, but to bring the past for judgment into the thousand-eyed present, and live ever in a new day. In your metaphysics you have denied personality to the Deity: yet when the devout motions of the soul come, yield to them heart and life, though they should clothe God with shape and color. Leave your theory, as Joseph his coat in the hand of the harlot, and flee.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day." - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

I don't stand by everything I've said about porn in the past. I think I've changed a lot. If you have read my posts in this thread it should be obvious to you that I've made some very different points.

I'm sure you know this, EDD, but while I may change my mind on certain points, porn is something I'll never really change my mind about. You know that feeling that you get when you're trying to explain to a Christian that God doesn't exist? Like they just don't get it because they're indoctrinated and willfully ignorant and stubborn? Like you're threatening their favorite pet and they need to defend it with everything they've got? It feels kind of like that. I am completely convinced that porn is useless, destructive filth. I may not have all of my facts straight. I may not know all of the pros and cons. I don't understand everything. But I think that the rest of you are either delusional, confused, indoctrinated, or in serious denial about how hideous porn is. I'm sorry for this condescendig attitude. I don't disrespect your intellect. I just think that you have an incredibly false and convincing set of beliefs that are virtually impossible for you to discard.

And I don't know why you think that I haven't taken a more moderate stance on porn. I definitely have. Did I mention sexual crime even once in this thread? Nope. I don't blame pornography for sexual crime, but in some cases it probably doesn't help. False schemas and lies about sex and relationships that are told by porn (especially the degradation of women and the idea that sex is something men do to women) may have the power to influence the weak-minded and borderline insane people that commit sexual crime. I don't really know.

I don't have a vendetta against porn because I've been personally hurt by it, I hate porn because it is the repulsive, cancerous, deceptive opposite of art.

Only "gummint busybodies and religious crusaders" are going to be sympathetic? I think that you have spent too much time on the internet. It doesn't take crazy people to realize that nothing good comes from porn and that it is a destructive, disgusting, immoral industry.

The quantum side of the mushroom is that I agree and disagree at the same time. Pr0n is a con, a tease and an addictive surrogate for a great many men. But it also fulfills a biological need (if women wanted to fark as much as men, there'd be no one doing anything else) as well as a need for illusion and fantasy. One could also make a pretty convincing argument that all the romance crap that women willfully subject themselves to creates an unhealthy and unrealistic view of men and relationships. Many a man has suddenly found himself in the doghouse for not being able to telepathically read a woman's mind.

The majority of sane people believe (pr0n is bad). It is not an unusual, backward, or unfounded notion. I don't think that people of my parents' generation realize the extent to which their sons and daughters are falling victim to the lie and becoming involved in or addicted to porn.

Billions are being spent on pr0n, but watching pr0n is just one of those things that people do that they see no reason to admit to. Sexuality cannot be separated from humanity and it's been around awhile.

http://india-travel.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_erotic_temples_of_khajuraho

If we create a market for this filth, someone is going to do it.

It's economics. The human sex drive came first (sorry) and pr0n is just the latest incarnation of market forces fulfilling a need...and it's only going to get worse (or better). To paraphrase (and update) Dennis Miller: If some unemployed construction worker in Trenton, New Jersey, lying on a sofa with a bong, can jack in to his computer and make love to Megan Fox for $19.95, this virtual reality stuff is going to make crack look like Sanka."

I realize that sex workers have more options than 19th century factory workers, but there is no way that working in the sex industry is psychologically healthy. Someone is always going to do it as long as the industry continues to grow.

Just like Lubben says, those who are involved defend the industry. I find that porn users defend porn like it's their firstborn. Regulate and make as many laws as you want. Porn is and always will be a plague on society.

Pr0n has its place in both society and life itself. A great many religious people can and do watch it.

It would be wonderful if everyone found the love of their life and had a committed relationship, etc., but that's not how the world works.

Prostitution should be legal the world over. The Europeans are light years ahead of us on this, and Jerusalem is the prostitution capital of the world.

The internets must be used for more than witty political remarks and sifting!

That's the key, isn't it? This so-called "need". If you don't find the love of your life and a committed relationship, is porn your only option? I don't really see what need it's fulfilling. Indeed, it seems more like an exacerbation of the problem. It is neither emotionally nor sexually satisfying. I'll be honest and say that I can't relate. To me it seems logical (but then again, I'm a girl) that if you can't get laid, you avoid sexual arousal instead of actively seeking it out. Porn is not just the release of sexual tension, it is the augmentation of it. Or so I should think? Is the need for sex such that men need to both arouse and release in order to feel fulfilled? Or could they release sexual frustration only when it happens on its own? I have a hard time believing that men are sex machines that just can't function without regular porn use. And if they are, is it a learned behavior? Not that we aren't meant to have and desire sex, because we are. But porn itself is so perverse and psychologically damaging (because of the lies and the degradation it thrives on) that I cannot believe nor accept that men are wired to need it. What did single people do before prostitutes and pornography? I'm guessing that they lived in a world where sex was something that you do with a partner, and something that you hold in cold storage as much as you possible until it's needed.

I don't think sex is bad. Sex is great and good. I just don't think that anyone truly needs to participate in sexual perversion (the porn industry) to be healthy, happy, and (reasonably) satisfied.

I hereby propose that everyone just stop talking to thepinky on this matter as there is not getting through the carbon fiber shell of absolute belief in the evilness of porn with nothing substantial to back it up.

There will never, ever be any getting through to her on this topic as she point blank REFUSES to even consider how porn can and does get used in completely healthy ways.

Amazingly hate filled words from her and not an ounce of logic.

(And you have to love the '(reasonably) satisfied' bit at the end, as if we should all just make do with merely OK in life. Do not pursue anything that makes you really happy and satisfied as it's probably evil and perverse, be content with 'reasonably' satisfied and be done with it.

Geeze, and I used to think thepinky was reasonable to have a discussion/argument with... not any more... not any more.

pinky, one of the major points where you err is that you perceive porn to be 'opposite of art'. Do you, really? Because it's quite absurd. It's not 'the opposite' - it's something else entirely. Porn and art (if seldom) may overlap, yes, and while erotica may overlap with art almost completely, those are also two different things. I think part of the problem is that you're still looking at pornography through this warped lens that other people and the culture you were a part of created for you, so it's no wonder that what you see is all bad.

But porn itself is so perverse and psychologically damaging (because of the lies and the degradation it thrives on) that I cannot believe nor accept that men are wired to need it.

Pornography itself is not perverse. It may be (fetishes, etc.), but by default it isn't. It's people fucking, ffs, there's very little less perverse and more natural than that. As for the latter part - yes, it CAN be damaging (albeit more so damaging to a relationship, not one's psyche as you claim), but 99.9 times out of 100 it's not. If it really were, why do you think many governments around the world would have subsidized porn on national TV channels?

And could you please elaborate on what the 'lies and the degradation' you mentioned are? What lies? That women fake orgasms on screen? They do it off-screen at least as often. Degradation? I'm sorry if I'm striking a personal note, but from my experience and from what every single one of my acquaintances with religious upbringing have told me, statistically religious men abuse their spouses a lot more often than we can see in porn movies.

You still seem baffled by this 'need for porn' for men, which is purely a pleasurable habit. It's been spelled out for you many times over - for men, masturbating to porn movies is both pleasurable and convenient, and again, in 99.9 cases out of 100 there are no ill effects neither in the short or the long term, neither physical, nor emotional/psychological. It's THAT simple.

>> ^thepinky:
I know no less that three other guys who quit using pornography for personal reasons. Two of them, years later, expressed to me how difficult it was to quit. At times it felt impossible. And they are both still tempted. I have another friend who is manic depressive and he says that he can't get over his emotional dependency on porn, though he has been trying for years. One guy I talked to compared porn addiction to "chasing the dragon," a phrase that is used in reference to heroine. Another guy said that porn images still haunt him.



serious question thepinky (i know nothing about you so apologies if this should be common knowledge): are you a counseller? if not, how the hell do you know all these guys with extreme porn dependency? it's not common enough for them to just be your friends. i could maybe understand it coming from a 60 year old with 30 years experience working in therapy but not someone your age. i'd honestly like to know.

personally, porn is fucking awesome. pornhub is actually on my bookmarks toolbar, and for good reason. regarding regulation though: what gwiz said.

>> ^quantumushroom:
The internets must be used for more than witty political remarks and sifting!


ie.: porn..

i finally seperated out love from sex.

now... it will take me.... as long as it takes.... until I commit to a relationship and share all aspects of life, including that, with someone/thing/people i "love".

i finally get it. i had an ok time randomly fucking people, too... but now i don't see it as fun. that doesnt mean i dont want to splurt all over my keyboard now and again... but that is sexual desire... a part of, but not even a main component to, "love".... just a .. bonus. an awesome, awesome sticky smelly bonus.

hmmm.... any guy who is talking to a "friend" who is a girl... about how much they masturbate... is probably trying to sneak a fuck in.. and the girl will probably let them if they already deign to "listen"...


"To me it seems logical (but then again, I'm a girl) that if you can't get laid, you avoid sexual arousal instead of "actively seeking it out" -- see you at the nunnery. please inform the catholic priests of this fact for us k...



porn as art or art with porn... or both... hmm tricky tricky these opinions
http://www.amazon.com/Baise-Moi-Raffa%C3%ABla-Anderson/dp/B00005U12T

Bah! Nothing substantial to back it up? Okay, maybe not, but QM and I are the only ones who have cited any actual scientists in this thread. EDD (who HATES it when I make claims based on my own experience) made up his own statistics, and the rest of you guys are throwing around generalizations like it's nobody's business! It's almost laughable that you ask me to back up my claims when no one who agrees with you is doing so. I just searched my college academic article resources and Google for about 30 minutes looking for studies that show that pornography is healthy. Guess what I found? Studies that show that it's unhealthy. The only scientific conclusion that I found is that occasional porn use isn't harmful. I can't find anything that says it's good for you. I found lots of proof, however, that regular porn use is unhealthy on multiple levels. I don't even have to give you links. Just do a Google search and you'll be bombarded with this stuff.

Spoco, when have I ever been reasonable?

When I say "reasonably" satisfied, I mean that you can't be fully sexually satisfied without actual sex imo. I'm just saying that you don't need porn in order to be reasonably satisfied. Porn isn't totally satisfying, and I should think you would agree with that.

You're mad at me for being stubborn, but my opinions about porn have become far more moderate that they used to be, if you remember. And what about you? Are you really listening and trying to find value in anything I say? I doubt it. Because you think that I'm incredibly wrong, and that's okay. Despite what you may think, I read and understand what you guys are trying to explain to me. Why should I be blamed for being as convinced of my opinion as you are? Because I am the only woman and only person arguing this side?

DeputyDog, I'm not a counseller or even a counselor, but why is it so hard to believe that I know three guys who have talked to me about their porn dependency? I talk about serious topics with lots of people, not just you guys. One of my good friends told me this after I knew him for about 2 weeks. I'm very open with other people about my own experiences, and they often confide in me.

I'm really sorry that I got sucked into this discussion again. I wish that the other people on this website who agree with me would come in and comment instead of making private comments on my profile. That would be really nice.

I wish that the other people on this website who agree with me would come in and comment instead of making private comments on my profile. That would be really nice.

oh... and dangit... I said we should all stop, and look what I just did, wrote a bloody novel.

*amazon http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Annabel-Chong-Story/dp/B000077VR2

Oh, I friggen give up with the amazon tag, too damn hard

why does anybody argue with thepinky about porn? She's not going to shut down a multi billion dollar industry nor is she going to keep us pervs from beating off to it. Nor is she going to keep me from photoshopping her avatar picture onto naked bodies and distributing it on the internet...

I don't think you're pervs.

Spoco, every time I've had this argument people have come out of the woodwork and made private comments congratulating me on arguing against porn. I don't think that this discussion has attracted enough attention, though.

>> ^thepinky:
DeputyDog, I'm not a counseller or even a counselor...


are we pouncing on spelling now ms pinky? ok then. 'heroin' is a drug, whereas 'heroine' is the word used to describe a female character much admired for her heroic actions.

you should clean your own stinking kitchen before reporting my cockroaches to the authoritays.


>> ^thepinky:
...but why is it so hard to believe that I know three guys who have talked to me about their porn dependency? I talk about serious topics with lots of people, not just you guys. One of my good friends told me this after I knew him for about 2 weeks. I'm very open with other people about my own experiences, and they often confide in me.


it's not impossible for you to know that many porn addicts by chance, that much i admit, but it's extremely unlikely. either a) you're incredibly 'lucky', especially at your age, to have randomly met these guys, b) you haven't met these guys, or c) they're feeding you a lot of bullshit (maybe through fear after realising you want to end porn's life).

if you have somehow met all these tragic porn addicts, please realise that this is not the norm. it's very much the opposite. i also talk to people about serious topics (it's not whoopee cushions all the time) but don't know a single man, or woman, who has a problem with porn, and that includes friends of friends of friends (and so on).

i'm actually surprised you haven't boycotted the sift anyway. i take it you've seen pornbumper?

it's illogical to propose one can control arousal effectively, woman or man.

you want a healthy relationship, which will probably include sex as it is intended: between persons who have the maturity to commit fully and understand the intensity and complexity and almost paradoxical nature of the commitment.

you want points for being egregious or something? downvote these nuts and reread what i said.

anytime its you + QM.. that should be a big hint.. about something...

i dont think you're pervs dont expect anyone to be so naive.. you do think it, and i am.

objectification is the only problem here... and sometimes....*surprise*... it may occur without exposure to "teh porn". so leave the porn alone brittany!

thepinky, the reason you didn't find any studies on Google regarding how healthy 'porn use' is is pretty much the same why you wouldn't find any studies on how healthy cars are - that would be illogical and pointless. That, and because you should have replaced 'porn use' with 'masturbation' - it couldn't get any more obvious that people who "research" the effects on health of 'porn use' are the ones "researching" with an agenda, which nullifies what they're doing for the scientific community and ought to do so for the community at large, too. Instead, folks with a personal vendetta eat it all up

Nicely, nicely said EDD.

And as you say, the number of papers showing that regular masturbation is indeed very healthy and good for you. And while it's true you can do it with no visual stimuli, it's a whole lot more fun if you have some.

Hell, Ernest Borgnine knows it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0172518/

Like any job, there's always a down side.