Well done!

Not scathing enough.

This the internal dialogue I must fight every time I want to make a polite post in rebuttal to a faither.

Inverse correlation??

Agree but I don't think he's going to convert people with that attitude. I'm not really interested in continuing or escilating arugments. You'll never change someone's opinion unless you can display empathy to their position... this strategy will just steele the resolve of those opposed to you.

Progress takes time. I think we've shifted and will eventually evovlve through this nonsense, (what he's railing against) but I admit waiting is difficult. Organized religion has been with humanity for thousands of years, and shedding it's influence on our reasoning will take time. The lack of a guidance structure puts much more responsibility on the individual. This can't be achieved overnight by condemning those you disagree with.

I do think it important to speak out, but I prefer we do so in an more approachable manner.

Patience, we'll get there.

^@Truckchase

I'd say he's more likely venting. I've had this same conversation with faithers so many times it drives me crazy, especially when they make one of these stupid arguments and I don't have the refutation on the tip of my tongue. I've often wished I had all my thoughts collected somewhere at once. Making a video like this would be quite cathartic for me, as I imagine it was for him.

I hope you're right, but I don't think we'll ever "get there", not even with more "approachable" manners. There's simply no way to talk someone out of a faith without insulting their intelligence by suggesting that you know better, which makes them not want to listen to you. Even that "Think" video will have no effect on faithful. I don't think people like the suggestion from outsiders that they're not thinking much more than they like being insulted and sworn at.

The only campaign that I think has any teeth is Atheist advertising campaigns, like in the UK, simply stating that lots and lots of atheists exist, and that if you're doubting your religion (probably because you're thinking for yourself), you're not alone -- you're in very good company. Those people are reachable.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

Personally, I'm fed up with having the same f'ing argument with creationists over and over again, blowing their pathetic arguments out of the water, and having them still desperately scramble to make any and every lame excuse as to why they shouldn't stop believing in their fairy tales. F@#k creationists. I'm done trying to have reasonable conversations with the unreasonable.

@messenger, @Sketch

I don't disagree with your sentiment at all; I find it quite frustrating at times as well, but I stand by my assertion that it won't help to be confrontational. I expect this shift will literally take generations to come about. Arguing with individuals in an effort to "convert" (perhaps de-convert) them rarely works, regardless of how sound your reasoning is.(as you have both noted) Everyone wants to win. Everyone wants to make up their own mind. For a lot of adults, it's quite simply too late to make such a radical change in their concept of existence. The young aren't as rigid, however, and this belief structure can diluted from one generation to the next. I assert the most effective way to change minds over time is to change our culture, and we're well on our way. The beacon of truth shines brightly on its own, while lies take significant maintenance. The more (effectively) open our society becomes the more difficult it will be to spread the influence of obvious lies. This will require work on our part, however, to call out specific, organized and systemic deception efforts over the course of our lives. We've got a long road ahead of us, but it should be interesting if nothing else.

That ad campaign is interesting; that's the sort of effort that we can aspire to in our daily lives. Not confrontational, but when the situation arises, let others know they're not alone with their doubts. Movements need leaders, and we're all capable of that role if we can be disciplined and patient enough.

I don't normally do quotes because it's easy to take someone out of context for your own purposes, but I especially like this one as I interpret it to pertain to this situation:

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." -Sun Tzu

Edit: Example of more constructive, (in terms of construction and delivery) yet just as scathing (in terms of content) criticism. Starts @ 8:07... man I envy the Hitchslap ability...

>> ^Fusionaut:

Inverse correlation??


Seems correct. He's saying as educational level goes down belief in creationism goes up. Or do you mean he should have said 'negative correlation'? I'm not really sure if 'inverse correlation' is proper terminology, but it's common enough.

*quality *doublepromote

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by gwiz665.

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haha, thanks, entropy. My comment was a lame attempt at a joke. I think inverse correlation is correct >> ^entr0py:

>> ^Fusionaut:
Inverse correlation??

Seems correct. He's saying as educational level goes down belief in creationism goes up. Or do you mean he should have said 'negative correlation'? I'm not really sure if 'inverse correlation' is proper terminology, but it's common enough.

Trust me, Truckchase, I used to think that way too, and I still make reasoned arguments whenever possible. I was all full of hope that people could be reasoned with, but my experiences have soured me on humanity's capability to grasp reality. So now I go the other route.

Humanity is fully capable of grasping reality. You've just got a group of people who just don't any better..and don't WANT to know any better because that means accepting that life isn't as simple as they want it to be.

Life is hard, life is complex, life just really fucking sucks sometimes. I can't really fault someone for saying they've had enough and are willing to put blinders on for the sake of feeling comforted by things that simply aren't true.

The problem is, the rest of the world wants to move forward and not be held back by fear and ignorance, but there will always be people who are afraid. That's just being human.

@Truckchase

You and I agree, I think. I especially like what (I believe) your quote is getting at, which is that we need to understand our enemy. I don't think we do. If we did, then we'd never get mad at them, nor even frustrated like a teacher at students who aren't catching on to the easy stuff. We would understand where they were coming from and why they continue to oppose us. Anyone who still thinks that a logical argument is going to achieve anything is as ignorant in their beliefs as the faithers are. The fact that we have no idea how to bridge the intellectual gap shows we don't understand their motivations.

For example, let's say this rigorous fixation on creationism stems from the belief that not to accept the bible as the literal truth will result in their eternal damnation in hell. If that's the case, then telling them their bible is provably false isn't going to wash with them -- they're going to believe it anyway because they don't want to go to hell. If, on the other hand, we disprove that belief instead, the others will fall like a house of cards. Interestingly, accepting that that belief is not true doesn't result in damnation, by definition.

the 'Jesus-turned-into-a-chicken' metaphor is excellent

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You know Napoleon Dynamite has had enough when he replaces gosh with fuck.

@Truckchase, @messenger: Those that have followed my posts on here know that I'm firmly in your camp in general. In this particular case, I think shouldn't be too hard on what is an obvious "rant," and not really an attempt at reasoned debate, or what have you. It's intended purpose seems to be the psychological benefit of atheists, not spreading reason. It's basically an atheist circle-jerk, and that's fine for what it is. I actually felt for his frustration. I've been there.

However, since I'm really interested in how we can change minds, I'm more interested in your discussion than the video itself. I think one of the traps we fall into is assuming that they're attitude is consistently coming from a fear of damnation. I agree it exists, but more often I find this equally "superior" attitude coming from them. They seem to act more saddened that I would choose to miss out on this great joy, than fearful of the punishment their god would doll out. The loudmouths are a completely different story. I'm talking more about the common, quiet, friendly, generous, and quite often otherwise reasonable religious folk I usually encounter. While our study bibles might be heavier than their pamphlets, they don't usually come across as utterly incompetent, fearful individuals. More frequently they've just been sold on the happy angle.

It's easy to turn someone against a tyrant. The perceived benevolent ruler is harder to overthrow. Personally, I find the best way to turn someone on the Christian God, is to make them actually read Leviticus. I find most of them haven't.

Oh man, this video had me rolling. Hilarity in the form of debate ensues.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

This is being discussed pretty furiously be our friends over at Reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/g72ho/

>> ^messenger:

@Truckchase
You and I agree, I think. I especially like what (I believe) your quote is getting at, which is that we need to understand our enemy. I don't think we do. If we did, then we'd never get mad at them, nor even frustrated like a teacher at students who aren't catching on to the easy stuff. We would understand where they were coming from and why they continue to oppose us.

That's not AT ALL what Sun Tzu is getting at. He was a pragmatist. A pragmatist Chinese war strategist. If you understand yourself and you understand the enemy, then you crush the enemy under your boot like the worm he is.

In this case doubly so. The creationists started the war against evolution and they will pay sooner or later. Reason may have started the war against religion, but since it's got reason on its side (duh) it will prevail too. Unfortunately, reason can be used even when you're religious, so it may take a while.

I'm a pacifist, but this is a war that we must see through or we will never be able to live true to ourselves. The war is truly against mental slavery, and just like physical slavery religion is the first enemy we must face.

Seen on reddit:

As much as you believe you're right, they believe they're right. Honestly, neither of you KNOW. One side's has more brains than the other, the other side has more heart than the other, but no one KNOWS. 150-200 years ago modern science KNEW that blood-letting would cure your diseases. Hell, 100 years ago science KNEW that there was no reason to wash your hands before surgery. They probably have a very good idea, but who knows what we'll discover in the next 100 years that makes us look like cavemen did 6000 years ago. (intentional date troll there, calm down)

2:42 - Personal attack on Ben Stein? Why? I stopped it there.

>> ^pavel_one:

2:42 - Personal attack on Ben Stein? Why? I stopped it there.


Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein#Views_on_evolution_and_science

It's interesting that you're okay with seeing a crucifix come out of a cow's butt, yet you get upset about a whispered comment directed toward a comedian.

@Truckchase @bmacs27

I'd love to see a discussion among atheists (or at least non-faithers) to discuss practical strategies to stop this bullshit. Is that happening anywhere?

*dead as in Removed By User.

This video has been declared non-functional; embed code must be fixed within 2 days or it will be sent to the dead pool - declared dead by CrushBug.

>> ^CrushBug:

dead as in Removed By User.


Man what a bummer! This was a good one too!

And googling "evolution is not" is futile.