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49 Comments
newtboysays...Wow. The bikers made sure the driver would not be prosecuted by attacking them on mass. I would have done lots more, reversing then forwards, and swerving to the side, hitting as many as possible in order to escape the gang rape or murder they threatened. I'm wondering why they accosted them in the first place? From beginning to end, this is an attack by the biker gang, and some of them got what they deserved.
An aside, I like that the land rover suffered no damage whatsoever running over multiple motorcycles. Go Rover!
Draxsays...It's creepy how the guy who originally backs into the RR first pulls up right along side it and peers in. Either he spotted someone who owed him money, or.... something creepy..
newtboysays...According to police reports, a biker cut in front and hit the brakes to be rear ended in the first place, the car stops, and the gang instantly starts to attack the family inside. They flee for their lives and are repeatedly attacked by the gang, ending in the drivers hospitalization...while none of the bikers was seriously injured. Gang got off easy, so far.
I would hope for prosecution...of the bikers. If there is none, it seems to be a good example to use in court as an excuse for why you had to run over every bike in the gang...the cops would have shown they won't do anything to protect you, even after the fact.
HugeJerksays...It looks like they felt the need to "punish" the driver initially for not getting over. Then an idiot tries to brake-check a car where the driver is having his attention split because he's being surrounded.
I read that they've arrested 15 of the guys on bikes and impounded 55 motorcycles.
Darkhandsays...It's so strange because lots of these group rides happen without incident. Why would they single out this driver? If the bikers had a good reason for doing what they did to him surely they would have shown that part of the tape too?
direpicklesays...Mob mentality and a perceived slight.
It's so strange because lots of these group rides happen without incident. Why would they single out this driver? If the bikers had a good reason for doing what they did to him surely they would have shown that part of the tape too?
MrFisksays...*controversy
siftbotsays...Adding video to channels (Controversy) - requested by MrFisk.
Trancecoachsays...Saturday on the H. Hudson Pkwy. What'd you expect?
antsays...http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585 from http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/1ng2tf/range_rover_runs_over_motorcyclist_high_speed/
chingalerasays...Still in New York there's no state license requirement for the possession of a rifle or shotgun...Both barrels from a coach gun (fired into the air even) and this pursuit may have ended before it began.
Uhhh, dumb-ass in the Rover should have simply dropped-out of the biker patch, saved himself a mob encounter.
antonyesays...Bikers are twats.
chingalerasays...No sir, increasingly more and exponentially so, people in general in the United States are twats. Give them vehicles and you have twats with lethal force.
Bikers are twats.
arghnesssays...You're defending this attack by the bikers? They clearly surrounded the car, braked to force the driver to stop, then (according to the article) started attacking the vehicle right there.
The driver did the right thing by trying to get away and I agree that if put in that situation, I would likely be knocking them over as well, to protect my family -- it's a terrifying scenario to be so outnumbered by violent criminals.
Still in New York there's no state license requirement for the possession of a rifle or shotgun...Both barrels from a coach gun (fired into the air even) and this pursuit may have ended before it began.
Uhhh, dumb-ass in the Rover should have simply dropped-out of the biker patch, saved himself a mob encounter.
robbersdog49says...I agree. I'd have been out of there as fast as possible and to hell with the people attacking my family. You pick that fight on a bike while I'm in a car you are going to lose. When they finally stop they should have kept moving, reverse out of there, to hell with the bikers behind. In a car like that, a few bikes aren't going to slow you down much.
You're defending this attack by the bikers? They clearly surrounded the car, braked to force the driver to stop, then (according to the article) started attacking the vehicle right there.
The driver did the right thing by trying to get away and I agree that if put in that situation, I would likely be knocking them over as well, to protect my family -- it's a terrifying scenario to be so outnumbered by violent criminals.
articiansays...Jesus, truly, we now live in the age of Akira.
articiansays...I'm usually not that much of a grammar nazi, but it is "en masse".
Wow. The bikers made sure the driver would not be prosecuted by attacking them on mass.
littledragon_79says...Their door wasn't locked?
littledragon_79says...See also:
Chairman_woosays...So just to throw it straight out there; I'm a massive biker (though mostly solo so I can't really relate to the gang mindset here). You have no idea what this whole debacle does to my priorities!
So on the one hand provoking the man in the big metal cage (no matter how good the perceived reason) is basically never a good idea if your on a bike. And moreover beating someone to within an inch of his life and cutting him up is very very rarely a good or condonable solution to anything, even if he did just run over a couple of your buddies....
On the other hand......well (and this might only really find any sympathy from fellow motor-bicycleists)..........I can fill in some of the gaps that might explain why one biker felt the need to brake hard in front of him etc. from my own experiences.
Some (very few) drivers go out of their way to fuck with you sometimes over little shit, they get a big head tucked away safely inside their big metal cages and they take it upon themselves to cause you grief in some way or another.
On a regular basis for instance I have car drivers deliverately pull their cars out to try and stop me filtering (lane splitting) despite the fact that A. its totally legal and featured on my fucking licence test! and B. It actually speeds their miserable existence in the traffic flow up as we don't have to take up a car's space (and were fucking gone before most cars are even in gear when the lights change anyway)!
Fortunately I have the perfect solution to this problem, I ride a cheapish looking bike and don't show any signs of stopping for them as they veer over deliberately into my path! You'd be amazed how often they just back off :-D (if not I'm only ever doing 5-10mph so stopping is always an option for that odd psycho)
Not saying I remotely condone the bikers responses, but I do understand how this thing probably escalated. I suspect the bikers had a legit frustration but clearly they dealt with it very poorly. The biker side of the story seems to be that this guy had been deliberately blocking lanes and exchanging insults for a while leading up to when the braking biker escalated things,a situation I've witnessed myself before. Normally prudence makes you leave it alone and back off/accelerate away (or if they are being an extra special twatbag knock off a mirror and accelerate into the distance :-D (never actually done that, but it's seriously crossed my mind a couple of times, Kevlar knuckles are the shit!)). In this case the extra courage that only a 1000 or so fellow kinsmen stood at your side can bring had the usual effect..........Mobs will be the death of us all.
@newtboy is right though, bikers totally killed their own case reacting so aggressively. If they'd followed at a reasonable distance and waited for police to show up things would probably have gone completely the other way legally. Sure the dude that brakes in front of him might get charged but it'd be nothing on attempted vehicular murder/manslaughter running over a handful of bikers. Chasing down and then beating a man half to death in front of his family unfortunately rather overshadows your defence.
Sadly the only sensible conclusion I seem to be able to find is this was ultimately douche nozzles with no self control baiting other douche nozzles with no self control. But I do get it. I also totally get the drivers response once it escalated, I'd have shit bricks and maybe made a run for it through them by that stage too!
I really really really wish I could hear what was actually said between them oh well, back to the fence I go!
EDIT: I just wanted to come back and make it absolutely clear that I also acknowledge that bikes in groups (especially sports bikes and supermoto's as featured here) are just as capable of acting like power drunk fucknuts too. It's entirely possible the bikers started it a way's back and the driver was essentially an innocent man driven to extreme lengths by fear (though I'm still going with straight up hot douche on douche action for now)
bcglorfsays...It's hard to judge without what happens before the video here, but from what we can see the bikers are crowding the vehicle in and then one guy forces the rover to stop. Everyone in the whole bike crew, even those in the lead also stop. The rover waits there awhile before something made them try and drive through and out.
With what we see it does NOT look like the rover driver initiated things. What might have happened before the camera was turned on had better have been pretty massive to justify surrounding and forcing someone to stop, and then having a bunch of angry guys approach the vehicle on foot. If my family was int he car I'd have likely done the same thing driving out of there to protect them.
So just to throw it straight out there; I'm a massive biker (though mostly solo so I can't really relate to the gang mindset here). You have no idea what this whole debacle does to my priorities!
So on the one hand provoking the man in the big metal cage (no matter how good the perceived reason) is basically never a good idea if your on a bike. And moreover beating someone to within an inch of his life and cutting him up is very very rarely a good or condonable solution to anything, even if he did just run over a couple of your buddies....
On the other hand......well (and this might only really find any sympathy from fellow motor-bicycleists)..........I can fill in some of the gaps that might explain why one biker felt the need to brake hard in front of him etc. from my own experiences.
Some (very few) drivers go out of their way to fuck with you sometimes over little shit, they get a big head tucked away safely inside their big metal cages and they take it upon themselves to cause you grief in some way or another.
On a regular basis for instance I have car drivers deliverately pull their cars out to try and stop me filtering (lane splitting) despite the fact that A. its totally legal and featured on my fucking licence test! and B. It actually speeds their miserable existence in the traffic flow up as we don't have to take up a car's space (and were fucking gone before most cars are even in gear when the lights change anyway)!
Fortunately I have the perfect solution to this problem, I ride a cheapish looking bike and don't show any signs of stopping for them as they veer over deliberately into my path! You'd be amazed how often they just back off :-D (if not I'm only ever doing 5-10mph so stopping is always an option for that odd psycho)
Not saying I remotely condone the bikers responses, but I do understand how this thing probably escalated. I suspect the bikers had a legit frustration but clearly they dealt with it very poorly. The biker side of the story seems to be that this guy had been deliberately blocking lanes and exchanging insults for a while leading up to when the braking biker escalated things,a situation I've witnessed myself before. Normally prudence makes you leave it alone and back off/accelerate away (or if they are being an extra special twatbag knock off a mirror and accelerate into the distance :-D (never actually done that, but it's seriously crossed my mind a couple of times, Kevlar knuckles are the shit!)). In this case the extra courage that only a 1000 or so fellow kinsmen stood at your side can bring had the usual effect..........Mobs will be the death of us all.
@newtboy is right though, bikers totally killed their own case reacting so aggressively. If they'd followed at a reasonable distance and waited for police to show up things would probably have gone completely the other way legally. Sure the dude that brakes in front of him might get charged but it'd be nothing on attempted vehicular murder/manslaughter running over a handful of bikers. Chasing down and then beating a man half to death in front of his family unfortunately rather overshadows your defence.
Sadly the only sensible conclusion I seem to be able to find is this was ultimately douche nozzles with no self control baiting other douche nozzles with no self control. But I do get it. I also totally get the drivers response once it escalated, I'd have shit bricks and maybe made a run for it through them by that stage too!
I really really really wish I could hear what was actually said between them oh well, back to the fence I go!
EDIT: I just wanted to come back and make it absolutely clear that I also acknowledge that bikes in groups (especially sports bikes and supermoto's as featured here) are just as capable of acting like power drunk fucknuts too. It's entirely possible the bikers started it a way's back and the driver was essentially an innocent man driven to extreme lengths by fear (though I'm still going with straight up hot douche on douche action for now)
budzossays...Have to call you out on a bad read of the situation here. The bikers are entirely at fault for this incident.
Still in New York there's no state license requirement for the possession of a rifle or shotgun...Both barrels from a coach gun (fired into the air even) and this pursuit may have ended before it began.
Uhhh, dumb-ass in the Rover should have simply dropped-out of the biker patch, saved himself a mob encounter.
budzossays...Do you really think the guy driving around with his wife and 2 year-old started deliberately fucking with a group of bikers? Guarantee you the bikers crowded and intimidated him to start this thing off. That's the whole point of what they're doing... to create a large intimidating mass that removes people from their sense of personal responsiblity. I personally loathe bikers (ones with "patches"). I tend not to get along with them. Can you tell?
So just to throw it straight out there; I'm a massive biker (though mostly solo so I can't really relate to the gang mindset here). You have no idea what this whole debacle does to my priorities!
So on the one hand provoking the man in the big metal cage (no matter how good the perceived reason) is basically never a good idea if your on a bike. And moreover beating someone to within an inch of his life and cutting him up is very very rarely a good or condonable solution to anything, even if he did just run over a couple of your buddies....
On the other hand......well (and this might only really find any sympathy from fellow motor-bicycleists)..........I can fill in some of the gaps that might explain why one biker felt the need to brake hard in front of him etc. from my own experiences.
Some (very few) drivers go out of their way to fuck with you sometimes over little shit, they get a big head tucked away safely inside their big metal cages and they take it upon themselves to cause you grief in some way or another.
On a regular basis for instance I have car drivers deliverately pull their cars out to try and stop me filtering (lane splitting) despite the fact that A. its totally legal and featured on my fucking licence test! and B. It actually speeds their miserable existence in the traffic flow up as we don't have to take up a car's space (and were fucking gone before most cars are even in gear when the lights change anyway)!
Fortunately I have the perfect solution to this problem, I ride a cheapish looking bike and don't show any signs of stopping for them as they veer over deliberately into my path! You'd be amazed how often they just back off :-D (if not I'm only ever doing 5-10mph so stopping is always an option for that odd psycho)
Not saying I remotely condone the bikers responses, but I do understand how this thing probably escalated. I suspect the bikers had a legit frustration but clearly they dealt with it very poorly. The biker side of the story seems to be that this guy had been deliberately blocking lanes and exchanging insults for a while leading up to when the braking biker escalated things,a situation I've witnessed myself before. Normally prudence makes you leave it alone and back off/accelerate away (or if they are being an extra special twatbag knock off a mirror and accelerate into the distance :-D (never actually done that, but it's seriously crossed my mind a couple of times, Kevlar knuckles are the shit!)). In this case the extra courage that only a 1000 or so fellow kinsmen stood at your side can bring had the usual effect..........Mobs will be the death of us all.
@newtboy is right though, bikers totally killed their own case reacting so aggressively. If they'd followed at a reasonable distance and waited for police to show up things would probably have gone completely the other way legally. Sure the dude that brakes in front of him might get charged but it'd be nothing on attempted vehicular murder/manslaughter running over a handful of bikers. Chasing down and then beating a man half to death in front of his family unfortunately rather overshadows your defence.
Sadly the only sensible conclusion I seem to be able to find is this was ultimately douche nozzles with no self control baiting other douche nozzles with no self control. But I do get it. I also totally get the drivers response once it escalated, I'd have shit bricks and maybe made a run for it through them by that stage too!
I really really really wish I could hear what was actually said between them oh well, back to the fence I go!
EDIT: I just wanted to come back and make it absolutely clear that I also acknowledge that bikes in groups (especially sports bikes and supermoto's as featured here) are just as capable of acting like power drunk fucknuts too. It's entirely possible the bikers started it a way's back and the driver was essentially an innocent man driven to extreme lengths by fear (though I'm still going with straight up hot douche on douche action for now)
Draxsays...The current report is the driver called 911 due to the eradic behaviour of the bikers. When they realized he was calling the police (I'm guessing that moment is the guy looking into the window which I commented on earlier) they went after him.
newtboysays...I guess that blows Chairman_Woo's theory that the driver MUST have instigated the bikers behavior out of the water.
Reports are that this same group does this ride yearly, and then goes to central park (I think) and causes major trouble...fights, bike tricking, riding on foot paths, intimidating any non-bikers...I'm just sad more bikes weren't destroyed and more fags hurt. (Good on you littledragon_79)
The current report is the driver called 911 due to the eradic behaviour of the bikers. When they realized he was calling the police (I'm guessing that moment is the guy looking into the window which I commented on earlier) they went after him.
newtboysays...I thought the same thing...they had already been attacked with knives, how did they not lock the doors?
Their door wasn't locked?
newtboysays...yeah...I'm good at science and math, not English.
I'm usually not that much of a grammar nazi, but it is "en masse".
TheDreamingDragonsays...This quote is from the Daily News article:
"The commissioner said police had been monitoring the ride — loosely organized by a group that calls itself Hollywood Stuntz. He said about 1,000 riders caused chaos in Times Square last year when they showed up out of nowhere and disrupted traffic."
And a little Googling produced this video:
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/did-hollywood-stuntz-attack-this-prius-driver-in-2011-1430929682
Apparently they do this sort of thing a lot...and the fact that the guy with the helmet cam was right there recording it makes me consider that they find it entertaining,and planned for something to happen. The group was heading through the Lincoln tunnel around 10:30 AM when I was taking a bus into NYC,and there were a LOT of them. I wondered why they were out en masse,but it was a nice day for a ride...I'm just glad my family took mass transit into NY that day.
chingalerasays...Not condoning the dick bikers here peeps, I was assessing the best option for the Rover's crew-The shotgun blast into the air was the, "scare the mob away and make em think twice" scenario-Mind you....It's not wise to fire a long arm through the sunroof into the air, but it beats the alternative should the mob's frustration escalate into a drag-out-and-beat-me scenario.
It wouldn't have gone this way had I been driving the Rover though, I would have not been caught-up in the middle of that pack and would have already let them pass me after-having waved them on.
Best not to rile bikers-The hardcore enthusists and lifetime fans of bikes already hate the fact that most motorists drive like dumbasses and the worst of them pay NO attention to rules of the road regarding motorcycles.
I rode motorcycles off and on for years and know the pain of cycling in both Texas and California, two VERY different vibes as Californians seem to have a better handle on motoring around bikers there being so many more on the road there than in Texas hence, a better consciousness on the roadway with regard to motorbikes.
This is New York. New York is NOT an automobile-dependent state and people there (I imagine) drive like inept, first-timers on pharmaceuticals with anger-management issues.
Have to call you out on a bad read of the situation here. The bikers are entirely at fault for this incident.
bjornenlindasays...Hey guys for the ones who thought that the bikers weren't the bad guys have a look at the link below!!
http://youtu.be/0ujSkztMRrs
bjornenlindasays...By the way these aren't real bikers real bikers don't do such things!!!
ChaosEnginesays...It doesn't really matter who did what. If you're riding a 200 Kg bike and you decide to attack a 2 tonne truck, you're a fucking idiot and you deserve what you get.
Chairman_woosays...If you actually read what I put you will see that I tried (but apparently failed) to make it clear that I was suggesting a scenario where the Car driver MIGHT have been at least somewhat at fault for instigating.
I went to great pains to NOT make a direct statement of fact regarding what happened here, but rather to elucidate my own experiences of angry/dickish car drivers to suggest another possible angle for the disputed events leading up the the video. At no stage did I say this is actually what happened, I don't know exactly what happened (and NEITHER do you for that matter, the build up wasn't filmed and reports understandably conflict).
You might also notice I added a paragraph immediately afterwards to make it clear that I could just as easily envision a sequence of events where the Bikers totally started it (or at the very least acted completely disproportionately).
I actually had a semi argument with one of my best biker friends over this vid trying to make the opposite argument to the one I posted on here (i.e. that under the circumstances driving over the bikes might actually have been a valid response to a direct physical threat just as you suggested).
What I was doing here was trying to introduce a little objectivity and present and angle some may not have considered, clearly I failed in this regard.
I guess that blows Chairman_Woo's theory that the driver MUST have instigated the bikers behavior out of the water.
Reports are that this same group does this ride yearly, and then goes to central park (I think) and causes major trouble...fights, bike tricking, riding on foot paths, intimidating any non-bikers...I'm just sad more bikes weren't destroyed and more fags hurt. (Good on you littledragon_79)
Chairman_woosays...I think he might well have started subtly fucking with a small group of bikers that was actually much larger and more aggressive than he anticipated. Tempers and ego's do deeply irrational things to peoples behaviour and 2-5 tonnes of SUV can have a similar effect to several years of steroid abuse.
I know this because I have had cars/SUV's packed with whole families pull out on me, deliberately block lanes, shout abuse etc. because dad's subconscious knows he's driving a 3T death machine and that makes him feel invincible etc.
You are in no position to guarantee anything here any more than I. I'm not saying you are wrong either, Bikers can be absolute cunts in gangs (especially full on sports bikes and harley's who I generally don't get on with).
Things escalate and while I'm not saying no-one ever got victimised I'm also saying most altercations don't just fall out of the sky.
I'm not for a moment disputing that the bikers largely acted like arseholes, but I am suggesting the SUV driver likely at least did something to garner their ire. Maybe it was just over him calling the police. Maybe he was shouting "i'll show you" etc. and deliberately getting in their way as some of the bikers claim.
Maybe, just maybe....the us vs them mindset many people are displaying in this thread is exactly the same behavioural force that ultimately created the incident in this video . "I hate Bikers they ride like aggressive dicks" "I hate Cagers cause they drive with their head up their arse".
I'm very much trapped in the middle over a lot of things here but I think it's better to try and understand something rather than feeling the need to take sides. It was the unchecked human need to take sides and throw objectivity out of the window that facilitates this kind incident in the 1st place after all.
Do you really think the guy driving around with his wife and 2 year-old started deliberately fucking with a group of bikers? Guarantee you the bikers crowded and intimidated him to start this thing off. That's the whole point of what they're doing... to create a large intimidating mass that removes people from their sense of personal responsiblity. I personally loathe bikers (ones with "patches"). I tend not to get along with them. Can you tell?
Chairman_woosays...Transpose what were discussing here onto this skit. Pretty much sums up everything I'm trying to say here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2L4UUL8TiY
newtboysays...That is why I called what you said a Theory, not a claim of fact.
What you claimed was possible, and perhaps even likely in certain circumstances, but not at all borne out by the facts not in dispute, and the video seems to start as the group starts to pass the car.
It's funny that you got upset that you thought I misunderstood your position, but in the next post you continue to posit the same position, that the driver must have caused it, apparently because it has happened to you.
I point out that this car is not in traffic, so the splitting lane/getting cut off idea can't fly in THIS situation. The video shows the ire was garnered because the driver was calling the cops (or at least on the phone). It was then the bikers who decided it was there right to punish the guy for "snitching" by stopping him on the freeway and attacking him repeatedly with knives. That makes THESE bikers aggressive fags that deserved to be run over...in my opinion. I only hope more of them come to justice and have their bikes taken, or more get run over next time.
I'm not against bikers in the least, I'm against assholes that attack families as inconsiderate fag gangs with knives.
If you actually read what I put you will see that I tried (but apparently failed) to make it clear that I was suggesting a scenario where the Car driver MIGHT have been at least somewhat at fault for instigating.
I went to great pains to NOT make a direct statement of fact regarding what happened here, but rather to elucidate my own experiences of angry/dickish car drivers to suggest another possible angle for the disputed events leading up the the video. At no stage did I say this is actually what happened, I don't know exactly what happened (and NEITHER do you for that matter, the build up wasn't filmed and reports understandably conflict).
You might also notice I added a paragraph immediately afterwards to make it clear that I could just as easily envision a sequence of events where the Bikers totally started it (or at the very least acted completely disproportionately).
I actually had a semi argument with one of my best biker friends over this vid trying to make the opposite argument to the one I posted on here (i.e. that under the circumstances driving over the bikes might actually have been a valid response to a direct physical threat just as you suggested).
What I was doing here was trying to introduce a little objectivity and present and angle some may not have considered, clearly I failed in this regard.
Kruposays...You all read this, right? (Thanks @ant - calling attention to it again)
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585
The SUV driver, making a wild assumption here, doesn't look like the type to irrationally do road rage while driving around with wife and child on their wedding anniversary...
Chairman_woosays...That's a rather speculative argument your making. We don't know exactly what was and wasn't said between the bikers and the driver. The bikers alleged this dude was giving quite a bit of back and forth and we don't know exactly what threat is made to provoke him driving over the bikes and escalating the whole thing. I never said that this was caused by lane splitting I was using it as an example from my own experience to make a point about some car drivers attitude and behaviour towards us.
The impression I get (and this is just a hunch like anyone else's including YOURS) is that this dude was talking shit and the bikers initially stopped him to make it clear he was in no position to be making threats (which lets face it would have been a foolish move for anyone). It's entirely possible that this whole thing could have been diffused at that point (and maybe not we don't get to see or hear the altercation).
Maybe this dude was just scared and calling the police, maybe he was directly antagonizing them as he did so as the bikers claim.
At no point have I done anything but condemn the bikers actions, I was merely trying to elucidate a different perspective and find a more informative angle than just "these bikers be dicks". They are people too (albeit ones of dubious moral character)
Are you familiar with the concept of holding two irreconcilable truths simultaneously to gain a deeper insight?
That's what I was doing here, I'm sorry I failed to make that more clear to you (language alone can be a clumsy way to communicate)
There's a veritable mountain of historic, behavioural and situational factors at work here, one of them is the basic resentment and animosity you subconsciously accumulate against a certain kind of car driver by simply being a biker. Other include mob dynamics, lifelong neuroses and inhibition control etc. etc.
When we say things like "fag gangs with knives" and make no attempt to understand their behaviour we get nowhere. In fact its worse than that, we go backwards as the simplistic black and white level untermensch/ubermensch relationship serves simply to fuel the same kind of situation in the future. That distinction exists but only works if derived dialectically rather than dualistically. (to paraphrase you need to be a bigger less emotionally compromised man/woman than these people or it will continue to happen. It's not a matter of who's right and wrong so much as "what failed and why?".)
I keep trying to not disagree with you because to a large extent I don't, I just don't believe in fixed perspectives. Your not wrong, but it does not invalidate the majority of what I'm trying to say/do. This is how higher synthesees or argument and understanding are derived. Someone had to chime in for the other side otherwise no-ones ideas have a chance to expand, on this occasion the duty fell to me and Chingy (not for the 1st time).
Dialectic logic > Aristotelian Logic
That is why I called what you said a Theory, not a claim of fact.
What you claimed was possible, and perhaps even likely in certain circumstances, but not at all borne out by the facts not in dispute, and the video seems to start as the group starts to pass the car.
It's funny that you got upset that you thought I misunderstood your position, but in the next post you continue to posit the same position, that the driver must have caused it, apparently because it has happened to you.
I point out that this car is not in traffic, so the splitting lane/getting cut off idea can't fly in THIS situation. The video shows the ire was garnered because the driver was calling the cops (or at least on the phone). It was then the bikers who decided it was there right to punish the guy for "snitching" by stopping him on the freeway and attacking him repeatedly with knives. That makes THESE bikers aggressive fags that deserved to be run over...in my opinion. I only hope more of them come to justice and have their bikes taken, or more get run over next time.
I'm not against bikers in the least, I'm against assholes that attack families as inconsiderate fag gangs with knives.
newtboysays...Perhaps I do speculate a bit as to why the biker caused the 'accident', but it seems to me that you continue to speculate that the driver MUST have done SOMETHING to cause the bikers to completely loose their shit and attack the family with helmets and knives. I fail to see how you get that impression without starting from the standpoint that the bikers MUST be 'reasonable' people that would not have attacked without 'proper' provocation. I think their behavior proves clearly they are not reasonable. More than likely, there were some 1%ers in that group that live for that kind of trouble, including the one that started it.
At least according to the police, his tires were slashed and his car hit with multiple helmets, provoking him to drive over the bikes/biker. He was later nearly ripped out of the car (door locks people) and finally at a third location actually pulled out and beaten/stabbed.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but you SEEMED to be excusing the bikers behavior, at least to a point, by saying (in essence) 'The driver provoked them'. I disagreed that he did, (I certainly didn't see it in the video) and also disagree that anything excuses a gang blocking the freeway and teaching a lesson to those that disrespected their road ownership by slashing tires, beating the car with helmets, terrorizing a family with a small child.
My hunch is that this guy didn't follow the gangs directions to stop and kept driving where they wanted to do tricks in the freeway, and they decided to teach him a lesson for messing with their illegal street trick performance...which this group is apparently well known for. They did the same thing last year to at least one other car without the chase or bike climbing, from the videos I've seen today. Surrounded it in traffic and beat on it.
As an aside...the guy was in a great position to talk shit, in a 3 ton 4WD on the freeway...it's when he turned onto side streets with traffic and didn't lock the door that he was in the real bad position! ;-}
I say things like "fag gangs with knives" because that's what they were. Fags and the bike curious. I understand the mindset of gang members, I simply think that most are narcissistic self centered assholes that need their friends around to be tough (for the most part... some are real tough narcissistic assholes). If you're wearing a full patch or ride in groups with others wearing patches, you're in a gang, not a club...at least to me.
And before you get the wrong impression that I don't get the dangers bikers live with, I rode my bicycle 40 miles per day in the bay area for years, and NO ONE sees a bicycle, at least they hear motorcycles. I don't support the people who block the street with bicycles either.
That's a rather speculative argument your making. We don't know exactly what was and wasn't said between the bikers and the driver. The bikers alleged this dude was giving quite a bit of back and forth and we don't know exactly what threat is made to provoke him driving over the bikes and escalating the whole thing. I never said that this was caused by lane splitting I was using it as an example from my own experience to make a point about some car drivers attitude and behaviour towards us.
The impression I get (and this is just a hunch like anyone else's including YOURS) is that this dude was talking shit and the bikers initially stopped him to make it clear he was in no position to be making threats (which lets face it would have been a foolish move for anyone). It's entirely possible that this whole thing could have been diffused at that point (and maybe not we don't get to see or hear the altercation).
Maybe this dude was just scared and calling the police, maybe he was directly antagonizing them as he did so as the bikers claim.
At no point have I done anything but condemn the bikers actions, I was merely trying to elucidate a different perspective and find a more informative angle than just "these bikers be dicks". They are people too (albeit ones of dubious moral character)
Are you familiar with the concept of holding two irreconcilable truths simultaneously to gain a deeper insight?
That's what I was doing here, I'm sorry I failed to make that more clear to you (language alone can be a clumsy way to communicate)
There's a veritable mountain of historic, behavioural and situational factors at work here, one of them is the basic resentment and animosity you subconsciously accumulate against a certain kind of car driver by simply being a biker. Other include mob dynamics, lifelong neuroses and inhibition control etc. etc.
When we say things like "fag gangs with knives" and make no attempt to understand their behaviour we get nowhere. In fact its worse than that, we go backwards as the simplistic black and white level untermensch/ubermensch relationship serves simply to fuel the same kind of situation in the future. That distinction exists but only works if derived dialectically rather than dualistically. (to paraphrase you need to be a bigger less emotionally compromised man/woman than these people or it will continue to happen. It's not a matter of who's right and wrong so much as "what failed and why?".)
I keep trying to not disagree with you because to a large extent I don't, I just don't believe in fixed perspectives. Your not wrong, but it does not invalidate the majority of what I'm trying to say/do. This is how higher synthesees or argument and understanding are derived. Someone had to chime in for the other side otherwise no-ones ideas have a chance to expand, on this occasion the duty fell to me and Chingy (not for the 1st time).
Dialectic logic > Aristotelian Logic
Chairman_woosays...How am I supposed to continue to interact intelligently when you keep twisting my words to imply things I have repeatedly stated I was not saying?
I deliberately chose my words to make it clear that I was not saying the driver MUST have done anything but only that he MIGHT. Simple reading comprehension; trying to twist my words for emotive effect is not going to work on me. (apart from getting a rise which it totally did)
You only seem willing to entertain a single perspective assessment of the situation and appear completely closed off to any other interpretation/speculation I have attempted to present.
The fact you have repeatedly ignored the core argument I have been making (that there is no such thing as one perspective and morality is a relativistic concept) suggests that either A you don't understand what I'm trying to say (in which case I'm happy to explain further) or B. don't want to understand (in which case I can't do shit for you sorry)
Let me put it another way. Do you think we understand Hitler and the Nazi's better by A. calling them racist fags and blindly denouncing their actions as "evil". or B. attempting to understand the mindset and motivations for what they did with a minimum of emotional compromise?
When you take the care to examine life's little unpleasantries like Nazi's or bike gangs or whatever from a less emotive position, you realise that they were/are not just some abhorrent alien force in society. Any one of us has the same capacity to behave like this, they aren't fundamentally different creatures and the belief that they are is exactly what allows people to justify doing this kind of thing in the 1st place. (If you asked one of the bike gangers to describe you and I you'd likely find they used the same kind of derogatory and dehumanising terms and categories, we're just slipping into the reciprocal tribal mindset)
Do I think bike gangs (and for that matter large groups of people in general) generally represent humanity at its worst? Yes totally, they are to my sensibilities 1st class arseholes. That's why I've agreed with you repeatedly on this (from post 1 onwards in fact!) I just like to come at things from more than one perspective because ultimately perspective is all that really exists to us, in this case I shared some measure of perspective with the bikers as I can see how thing thing could have escalated from that POV and how they might well have justified their actions to themselves.
Ethics/morals are little more than deep aesthetic preferences, they have no observable basis of authority in the natural world, only our own minds. While it's an illusion were arguably better off with, it does rather get in the way of objectivity.
All I really take exception to is having my words and meaning distorted and my core argument ignored. It's called a straw-man (reciting a deliberately distorted and weak version of your opponents argument to then tear it down) that shit wouldn't even fly in a high-school debating club and it certainly wont work with me here. Its fine that you disagree but at least get what your disagreeing with right please.
It's not about "good and "bad" "right" and "wrong" but rather "why" and "how". In short it's more complicated than "bike curious fags" and reducing matters only to that does nothing to help the situation other than to illustrate ones deep aesthetic distaste (which in itself is totally valid and I've not contradicted at any stage). I have somewhat more split "deeply held aesthetic preferences" here which is what I originality began talking about, perhaps that's why I'm finding it easier to at least relate to the bikers side of things even if I don't agree or condone.
"....and also disagree that anything excuses...."
^ This phrase beautifully demonstrates the folly of rigid non-perspective based morality. By embracing any arbitrary absolute truth or principle such as this one renders objectivity and transcendence impossible. Justification is a personal thing, what I'm interested in is provocation and explanation, we can argue what's justified until the cows come home because its not an objective concept it's a subjective preference.
This, when all semantics are stripped away is the core of why we are disagreeing I think. You think Ethics/morals are actual things that matter in their own right, I think they are no more than strong preferences who's usefulness is directly proportional to ones ability to understand and sympathise with those of others. Everything else has really been a play around that (by both of us) in less direct terms I fear....
Perhaps I do speculate a bit as to why the biker caused the 'accident', but it seems to me that you continue to speculate that the driver MUST have done SOMETHING to cause the bikers to completely loose their shit and attack the family with helmets and knives. I fail to see how you get that impression without starting from the standpoint that the bikers MUST be 'reasonable' people that would not have attacked without 'proper' provocation. I think their behavior proves clearly they are not reasonable. More than likely, there were some 1%ers in that group that live for that kind of trouble, including the one that started it.
At least according to the police, his tires were slashed and his car hit with multiple helmets, provoking him to drive over the bikes/biker. He was later nearly ripped out of the car (door locks people) and finally at a third location actually pulled out and beaten/stabbed.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but you SEEMED to be excusing the bikers behavior, at least to a point, by saying (in essence) 'The driver provoked them'. I disagreed that he did, (I certainly didn't see it in the video) and also disagree that anything excuses a gang blocking the freeway and teaching a lesson to those that disrespected their road ownership by slashing tires, beating the car with helmets, terrorizing a family with a small child.
My hunch is that this guy didn't follow the gangs directions to stop and kept driving where they wanted to do tricks in the freeway, and they decided to teach him a lesson for messing with their illegal street trick performance...which this group is apparently well known for. They did the same thing last year to at least one other car without the chase or bike climbing, from the videos I've seen today. Surrounded it in traffic and beat on it.
As an aside...the guy was in a great position to talk shit, in a 3 ton 4WD on the freeway...it's when he turned onto side streets with traffic and didn't lock the door that he was in the real bad position! ;-}
I say things like "fag gangs with knives" because that's what they were. Fags and the bike curious. I understand the mindset of gang members, I simply think that most are narcissistic self centered assholes that need their friends around to be tough (for the most part... some are real tough narcissistic assholes). If you're wearing a full patch or ride in groups with others wearing patches, you're in a gang, not a club...at least to me.
And before you get the wrong impression that I don't get the dangers bikers live with, I rode my bicycle 40 miles per day in the bay area for years, and NO ONE sees a bicycle, at least they hear motorcycles. I don't support the people who block the street with bicycles either.
chingalerasays...That link looks like a YT channel of one of the riders in that pack o dicks.
Also, I would agree that 'real' bikers don't do this shit....ride in packs of mix-and-match crotch-rocks on the weekend and fuck with people in cars.
These riders fit a douchebag demographic of 18-30-something, single whitish males who watched Fast and Furious while fantasizing the of blowing cock, but instead went out and bought a rail. No Harley's in the pack, only tits with tats of Chinese, Celtic knots riding shit they can barely control, because of the douchebag.....ALL, because of the douchebag.
Most of these assholes' girlfriends are remote controls, game controllers, and streaming recordings of working girls in the San Fernando Valley who will never realize their dream of the big screen...
Hey guys for the ones who thought that the bikers weren't the bad guys have a look at the link below!!
http://youtu.be/0ujSkztMRrs
budzossays...He didn't though. And you keep insisting that he MIGHT have. Not in this case. So stop already.
I deliberately chose my words to make it clear that I was not saying the driver MUST have done anything but only that he MIGHT.
newtboysays..."I think he might well have started subtly fucking with a small group of bikers that was actually much larger and more aggressive than he anticipated."
Again, I called what you said "speculation" that he "might have done "X
I certainly can understand and see two sides of most arguments, but I can also see when one side is utter BS based on known facts. There is only one side here, no matter what names the family might have called the bikers, there's no excuse for their behavior in the least, and no "reason" for them to attack.
I ignore the core argument of your post because it makes no sense. you seem to conflagrate understanding their behavior and excusing it. I understand why these babies had a tantrum, I don't agree that's it's acceptable, not even in kindergarten.
You seem to misunderstand my position, it's not that I can't understand the gang of fags, it's that I disagree with their self centered, infantile, 'it's all about me' mindset that lets them get pissed off when someone doesn't allow them to take over public places for their dangerous activity.
People who are not in gangs do NOT have the capacity to act like this. Gangs are fundamentally different creatures from individuals.
I agree, if you asked one of the bikers about you and I, they would undoubtedly side with you, because you SEEM to be excusing and explaining their behavior (even though you continue to say you aren't) by saying it's completely understandable and anyone could be pushed to that level of action, and I'm calling that BS excusing, that's what it sounds like to me and others.
In this case you shared a level of one sided speculation in an attempt to 'explain' why the bikers went ape shit crazy on a family. Attempting to explain how it's justified to them is asinine, you need to explain to them how it's not at all justified. No sane perspective excuses them.
Your words lend themselves to twisting when you continue to argue that they 'might' have a legitimate reason (if only in their own tiny minds) then get upset when someone corrects you that you and they are 100% wrong, and they did not have a legitimate reason. Monkeys 'MIGHT" fly out of my butt to do my bidding, should I get angry with you when you say they won't?
When my high school debate adversary makes ridiculous propositions completely based in supposition and having no base in fact whatsoever, I use it against them. If they want to call their lack of ability to get a point across and have it agreed with 'straw man', they may, it won't win the debate for them.
I disagree with your position that they might have had a 'reason' to go nuts and attack...legitimate or not. If you're adult enough to own and ride a bike, you should be adult enough to ignore someone making a face at you or mouthing something nasty...if that even happened....and no one besides the attackers (and their supporters) are even making that claim (probably because it is not a legitimate reason or excuse). Grow up fags.
it is about good/bad, right/wrong...not just "why/how" for 99% of people.
It is also about fags and the bike curious this time.
You are 100% wrong about justification, it's not a personal thing, it's a simple law thing. What's justified and what's not has been argued by professionals and determined to the millimeter. You seem to be arguing that you can understand how it's justified (to the bikers) to surround and attack a family with a 2 year old...and your stated justification is 'he mouthed off to them'...and that's not a justification for 99.99% of people, and certainly not a legal justification. I understand it may be a reason why idiots without any self control lost their shit, I can only hope they think differently every time they visit their now paralyzed cohort and grow the F up.
I think ethics and morals are things society has agreed upon (for the most part) and are not things you can get away with making up for yourself, unless you live like a hermit with no human contact at all, or don't mind spending your life in solitary (again, like a hermit).
How am I supposed to continue to interact intelligently when you keep twisting my words to imply things I have repeatedly stated I was not saying?
I deliberately chose my words to make it clear that I was not saying the driver MUST have done anything but only that he MIGHT. Simple reading comprehension; trying to twist my words for emotive effect is not going to work on me. (apart from getting a rise which it totally did)
You only seem willing to entertain a single perspective assessment of the situation and appear completely closed off to any other interpretation/speculation I have attempted to present.
The fact you have repeatedly ignored the core argument I have been making (that there is no such thing as one perspective and morality is a relativistic concept) suggests that either A you don't understand what I'm trying to say (in which case I'm happy to explain further) or B. don't want to understand (in which case I can't do shit for you sorry)
Let me put it another way. Do you think we understand Hitler and the Nazi's better by A. calling them racist fags and blindly denouncing their actions as "evil". or B. attempting to understand the mindset and motivations for what they did with a minimum of emotional compromise?
When you take the care to examine life's little unpleasantries like Nazi's or bike gangs or whatever from a less emotive position, you realise that they were/are not just some abhorrent alien force in society. Any one of us has the same capacity to behave like this, they aren't fundamentally different creatures and the belief that they are is exactly what allows people to justify doing this kind of thing in the 1st place. (If you asked one of the bike gangers to describe you and I you'd likely find they used the same kind of derogatory and dehumanising terms and categories, we're just slipping into the reciprocal tribal mindset)
Do I think bike gangs (and for that matter large groups of people in general) generally represent humanity at its worst? Yes totally, they are to my sensibilities 1st class arseholes. That's why I've agreed with you repeatedly on this (from post 1 onwards in fact!) I just like to come at things from more than one perspective because ultimately perspective is all that really exists to us, in this case I shared some measure of perspective with the bikers as I can see how thing thing could have escalated from that POV and how they might well have justified their actions to themselves.
Ethics/morals are little more than deep aesthetic preferences, they have no observable basis of authority in the natural world, only our own minds. While it's an illusion were arguably better off with, it does rather get in the way of objectivity.
All I really take exception to is having my words and meaning distorted and my core argument ignored. It's called a straw-man (reciting a deliberately distorted and weak version of your opponents argument to then tear it down) that shit wouldn't even fly in a high-school debating club and it certainly wont work with me here. Its fine that you disagree but at least get what your disagreeing with right please.
It's not about "good and "bad" "right" and "wrong" but rather "why" and "how". In short it's more complicated than "bike curious fags" and reducing matters only to that does nothing to help the situation other than to illustrate ones deep aesthetic distaste (which in itself is totally valid and I've not contradicted at any stage). I have somewhat more split "deeply held aesthetic preferences" here which is what I originality began talking about, perhaps that's why I'm finding it easier to at least relate to the bikers side of things even if I don't agree or condone.
"....and also disagree that anything excuses...."
^ This phrase beautifully demonstrates the folly of rigid non-perspective based morality. By embracing any arbitrary absolute truth or principle such as this one renders objectivity and transcendence impossible. Justification is a personal thing, what I'm interested in is provocation and explanation, we can argue what's justified until the cows come home because its not an objective concept it's a subjective preference.
This, when all semantics are stripped away is the core of why we are disagreeing I think. You think Ethics/morals are actual things that matter in their own right, I think they are no more than strong preferences who's usefulness is directly proportional to ones ability to understand and sympathise with those of others. Everything else has really been a play around that (by both of us) in less direct terms I fear....
newtboysays...Sorry, most of them were 'people of color'...not 'whites'. They are now calling people racist for calling the cops on them! Babies!
That link looks like a YT channel of one of the riders in that pack o dicks.
Also, I would agree that 'real' bikers don't do this shit....ride in packs of mix-and-match crotch-rocks on the weekend and fuck with people in cars.
These riders fit a douchebag demographic of 18-30-something, single whitish males who watched Fast and Furious while fantasizing the of blowing cock, but instead went out and bought a rail. No Harley's in the pack, only tits with tats of Chinese, Celtic knots riding shit they can barely control, because of the douchebag.....ALL, because of the douchebag.
Most of these assholes' girlfriends are remote controls, game controllers, and streaming recordings of working girls in the San Fernando Valley who will never realize their dream of the big screen...
shatterdrosesays...Found the video on another site since YouTube no longer has it. http://www.radiolive.co.nz/VIDEO-Bikers-chase-Range-Rover-through-New-York-City/tabid/673/articleID/38178/Default.aspx
After watching it, I must say, if I was the RR driver, a lot more bikers would be dead. The bikers got off easy from the looks of it. The RR could have swerved into them while they were riding up past him, could have aimed for them etc. Hell, if it had been me, the first guy that came and tried to open the door up wouldn't be alive anymore. And neither would the guy busting open my window.
But hey, that's just the way I'd react to a gang of bikers purposely harassing myself and my kid.
Then again, as a cyclist, I just call the cops and file a report when someone driver slights me purposely. And as many have said, we don't know what happened before the segment posted, but I would wager a fair bit of money that the most the RR would have done was yell at them or honk, or in the midst of a sudden onrush of motorcycles while trying to change lanes freaked out and didn't know what to do.
Darkhandsays...Charges Dropped on one of the bikers:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/02/us/new-york-bikers-attack-video/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
LiquidDriftsays...What probably happened was the rover driver unintentionally did something that the bikers perceived as a threat or a slight and then the shit hit the fan.
Personally I don't know I would have had the fortitude to drive over a bunch of bikers to get out of there, but I like to think I would.
chingalerasays...@newtboy
Yeah, I tend to be much harder on white people-In my twisted mind it's the white man that influenced these folks to start a douchebag motorcycle club of assorted-ethnicity, rice-burner-riders. White people invented sheit sequels to crappy gang-oriented illegal racing films AND the 'century of the self' through monopolistic media domination/ indoctrination.
OH, and I also lived in the bay area when that group-bicycle ride Critical Mass was in it's infancy-An ex-roommate was a motorcycle messenger and a founding member of the event and was killed in a major event ride by an 18-wheeler who clipped him whilst riding through the streets blocking traffic. Tragic and stupid, all for a whiny cause.
CreamKsays..."Stunt" bikers or "bombers" are the worst bunch on two wheels. They are generally jus scared babies going to extreme douchiness when in a group. I'll take 1% any day instead of crouch rocket hooligans.
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