Yeah... this is funny. Avenue Q rules! Anyone who hasn't seen it needs to make plans to do so immediately. I'd also like to add that one should not ever compliment an asian person's appearance by saying, "You look like a geisha doll." Yes, this has happened to me.

Vote whore.

Vote whore? Natch, but you must admit the humor value of sifting this today would be priceless.

calling a christian a moron isn't racism, nor is an "irrational" hatred of Hip-Hop.

On an interesting side note I've noticed after working on the ranch for a couple years that cows are racist. Amazingly enough they tend to stick close to those of the same breed or color. The darker ones keep fairly separate from the lighter colored cattle.

Anyway, my main point is, eat cows the're stupid.

(P.S. there will be no apology to PETA, vegans, or Hindus for that last comment. Seriously cows would either get slowly and painfully mauled by a pack of wolves or have a quick and fairly painless death and used to feed humans who need the protein and essential amino acids to live.)

Jlowen,

Irrational hatred of Hip Hop is racist, calling Christians morons is prejudiced.

Thanks! I love Avenue Q!

Now if I could only find an acceptable version of "I'm not wearing underwear today."

...Get a job!

racist <> prejudiced

racist <> ignorant

one can be all combinations of the three, but it's a fallacy that "everyone's a little bit racist" - believe it or not, some people are NOT "a little bit racist"; some are merely ignorant of other cultural aspects and some are prejudiced because of ignorance etc etc
That is not the same as being "a little bit racist"

On your list of "racisms" I only come anywhere near the calling Christians Morons one, but I assure you that I reserve that for morons who happen to be Christians. While I do agree that we all have racism "issues" I find that they are more often systemic, rather then interpersonal.

Since I will be assumed to be more competent then somebody else because I am white, or male, or from an upper middle-class family I find the unaknowledged affirmative action of racism a much more prevalent form of racism then crass bigotry, which you seem to think everyone is prone to.

GH: I don't know if I'm the token vegan who needs to respond to your jab, but allow me to assure you that a cow who has not had her horns snipped would happily impale you, or a wolf any day of the week. I say this as somebody who was once charged by a horned overprotective momma cow, I would not mess with her.

P.S. since GH wants to eat others on the basis of intelligence how about everybody post your IQ/SAT scores so we know who to roast over the spit next

IQ: 135. (This is a response to the the above comment, not bragging.)

I have no research to back this up, but I do believe that living in a racist culture rubs off on EVERYONE, even smart, compassionate people like you, dgandhi (and Smibbo). I'm talking about subtle, internalized, culturally acceptable racism that you might not even recognize as racism if it were pointed out to you.

Take the NAACP for instance. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, an organization dedicated to fighting racism, uses the racist term 'colored' in its name. The word was culturally acceptable at the time, but that doesn't make the implication that black people are 'colored' people any less offensive.

This is internalized racism, and I'd wager that even an intelligent, forward thinking person like you has internalized racism/sexism/classism locked away somewhere in your brain.

It doesn't make us bad people, we are a product of our time.

Remain vigilant.

By definition I dont think all people are a little racist.

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


Do you cross the street to avoid Mexicans? Yes,If they look like thugs. No,if they dont. Same with all groups.
Have you ever said "You speak good English" to an Asian? No
Do you think Homosexuality "Isn't natural"? No
Do you have an irrational hatred of Hip-Hip? No
Do you call Christians on the internet morons? No
Do you often suspect Muslims are sleeper cell agents of Al Qaeda? No

dystopianfuturetoday,
Please clarify how an "irrational" hatred of Hip Hop is racist.
I suppose calling Christians "morons" is a bit harsh...how about ignorant?

^Maybe atheist are also ignorant? Here's a proposal, everyone is ignorant, since God is not something that can be proven or demonstrated to either side I'd say Atheists and Theists are both ignorant. After all they both hope for things they can't see.

Take the NAACP for instance. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, an organization dedicated to fighting racism, uses the racist term 'colored' in its name. The word was culturally acceptable at the time, but that doesn't make the implication that black people are 'colored' people any less offensive.

The issue with "colored" is not that the word is magically offensive, but that it, in the current cultural context is an anachronism to a time when people were considered property. Since the NAACP was named when this connotation did not exist, it is not offensive, because it lacks the context that would make it offensive.

I don't have a problem with analyzing the words people use to discover how they think, but you can't do that, such as in your example, when you disregard the context. Words are not racist, but they do, at times communicate, either intentionally or unintentionally, racist beliefs.

This is internalized racism, and I'd wager that even an intelligent, forward thinking person like you has internalized racism/sexism/classism locked away somewhere in your brain.

While I find your examples lacking I don't declaim internalized racism, I made the point to aknowledge that in my experience it takes forms more subtle then crass words. Sociologists do all sorts of studies to measure how much we undervalue certain members of our society, this is a race/sex/classism that benefits people in my privileged position at the expense of others. I have never turned down a job because I knew I got it over someone else largely on the basis of my race or sex, but it has happened.

My only real disagreement with your position is that the institutional form of racism, the one that gets me jobs other people are better qualified for, is more common and more difficult to deal with then the word play that you are focusing on. People in the anti-racist movement tend to call what you are talking about "bigotry" and the institutional form "racism", I think it confuses the issue when people equate racism with nasty words when it's most profound effect is on the inequality of opportunity.

It doesn't make us bad people, we are a product of our time.

Remain vigilant.

I agree that we should remain vigilant, that is why I wanted to mention institutional racism on your post, as that is the form I most often encounter, and people most often ignore.

GH: I think it is absurd to argue that atheists hope for the nonexistence of god, we simple extrapolate the nonexistence of god. Many atheists in fact wish that there was a god, but they can't bring themselves to believe that there is one.

While everyone is ignorant in the broadest sense, I find it disingenuous to argue that "god" is unfalsifiable. Many holy books make deity based cosmological claims which we can prove to be false, these aspects of the deities in question are falsified. The claim that some parts of the official definition of a given god can be discarded when convenient is not a particularly intellectually honest position. Moving the goal posts is more ignorant(or dishonest) than accepting the disproof.

This is the definition of a "concern troll". You sound really dumb citing the "C" in NAACP is somehow racism. So is the Holocaust museum then. Also, I love how much of the world is moving quickly to thoughtcrimes. Facial recognition is being used by airports to give you the special treatment. It literally won't be long before highschools have special facial recogition / lie detectors to counsel bullies and racism in students.

Can we just start with railing against racist actions and ignore thought crimes and "gee my introspection tells me a harbor racist and homophobic thoughts". Let's keep it to actions and words, like those of the author. (before some idiot tells me words are thoughts. No, your diary that no one reads is thoughts. Things you publish in emails and on the internets are actions).

What's with the thoughtcrime rant, joedirt? So having awareness and being introspective about where our racial stereotypes and prejudices come from might bring on the thoughtcrime police? Uh oh! Why does that term THOUGHTCRIME keep coming up? QM used it in his outlandish arguments, and here it is again. "I love how much of the world is quickly moving to thoughtcrimes." Please cite me examples of this, because I don't understand what you are saying.

Oh, and calling someone dumb and a troll in their own Sift Talk Post is uncalled for and makes YOU seem like an asshole. I could appreciate the point you were possibly trying to make, except for your off-putting rudeness.

I said "sound dumb" and it is pretty lame to tied NAACP to self-hating racism. It's not even on a level worth discussing. What is next? Discussing sales figures for KFC and time of the month?

Look up concern troll because that is exactly what this post is. And I cite an example in the very sentence following the word thoughtcrime.

I think off-putting is my trademark. It depends if someone sets me off by saying how NAACP is a racist term, also my general response to people who brag about their IQ. (Most people with a 135 IQ know better than to post it on internet forums)

You're not getting it Joe, we are talking about internalized and institutionalized racism, not intentional racism. Go ahead and look those terms up.

I'm not sure if the 'Joe Dirt' thing is a character like BillOReilly, so perhaps you are putting me on, but the thought crime canard was already put to bed in another thread -(http://www.videosift.com/video/Devout-Christians-beware-Teh-GAYZ-are-coming-to-your-town#comment-293179) -if you care to read it.

Here's the short version:
You are entitled to whatever racist thoughts you like in your own head. That is not a crime. But, once you commit an actual crime with the intent to terrorize a particular group, you've entered the realm of hate crime. Actions aren't thoughts, Joe.

Capiche?

The IQ thing was part of my response to dgandhi, not a random brag. I'm sure it looks weird without reading the context.

Dgandhi, I totally agree. Word.

You set yourself off there, joedirt, maybe by watching a bit too much Spielberg or something, I don't know. That is why this post deserves a *quality for bringing out a troll like you.

Awarding dystopianfuturetoday with one star point for this contribution to Sift Talk - declared quality by Issykitty.

Oh my aching ass... Ok, I'm going to come back to this and fully read this thread when I have time. This is a great thread, but I have to get working damnit

Racism is not equal to having prejudices. Oh, and it's so funny to call someone irrational if they dislike something that's somehow tied to a particular culture..like hiphop is to rap culture.

I don't like rap music. At all. I also dislike modern country/western music. My reasons are not irrational either, I simply have a cultural bias.

I compare today's C&W music to my preference for traditional country/bluegrass/mountain folk music and see that the C&W come up short..WAY short. My reason is rational. Country and Western today does not have the same level of musicianship as as bluegrass.

Also compare Jazz to Hip/Hop and Rap. Both genres are rooted in African American culture. I prefer Jazz to Rap for the same reasons as above. Jazz requires a higher level of musicianship in my opinion. Also (IMO) Jazz portrays a much more positive message than Rap music.

Are those reasons irrational? No. Prejudice? Yes.. Racist? Clearly NO

See? Can't the PC champions here tell the difference?

dystopian,
I still don't get how a hate of hip hop is racist.

Disliking hip-hop doesn't mean you are racist, that's why I included the word 'irrational'. It's far more complex than the simplistic argument a presented above. I'm going to come back later and answer that question in more depth, but for now I've gotta go to work.

you're all retarded. equally.

btw my IQ was "measured" as 176 when i was 10 years old, by a shape recognition and manipulation test.

so i guess i am really good at shape recognition and manipulation tests then.

people who believe in IQ are the most retarded of all.

/\ LOL. Yeah, I always wondered how that could make such broad assumptions about a person's intellect by how they interpret a few logic puzzles. There are many different types of intelligence.

"I'm not sure if the 'Joe Dirt' thing is a character like BillOReilly"


1. Never question the integrity of my VS account.

2. Leave me out of this racist war of attrition, I love everybody, especially Hillary.

3. I would never brag about having an IQ of 35, but that's just me. Everyone's different.

I think I may have a prejudice against atheists. I always just assume they lack imagination.
(ducks and covers)

Of all the feelings I've hurt these past few days, Bill O'Reilly's are the ones I regret hurting most.

Sorry Bill. David Spade's got nothing on you. You are a prince among men.

My sincere apologies,

dft

Linz: hehe, reason > imagination, see "wendy, I can fly.." splat

SG,

Oh, and it's so funny to call someone irrational if they dislike something that's somehow tied to a particular culture

You've misunderstood. Your criteria for disliking something may be rational or irrational. Disliking something doesn't make you irrational.

On Country

You don't like 'modern' country, but you do like country, which means you haven't written off an entire genre of music (I'm not judging, it's just an observation).

I happen to agree with you on country, but there is some decent stuff out there if you look for it. If you don't already know Abigail Washburn, then she is soon to be one of your favorites. Other acts to look for are Old Crow Medicine Show, Wilco and Nickel Creek. None of it but the AW stuff really stack up to Patsy Cline or Johnny Cash, but it's a helluva lot better than the drivel on the radio.

In general, music on commercial radio is horrible.

Jazz and Hip-Hop

Jazz and Hip-hop are actually more similar than you think.

-They both use the same types of rhythmic syncopations. This point is made clearly by an excellent mashup of an Eminem song and an old piano rag. The track is called 'Snookered' by a DJ named Freelance Hairdresser. You can follow these syncopations from ragtime to Dixie Jazz, to Swing, Rock, Bop, Soul, Funk, and eventually Hip-Hop.

-The co-opting of popular tunes is also shared between the two genres. Rappers are much maligned for their use of samples and get little credit for the creative ways in which they reconstruct the source material. Jazzer's would also co-opt the popular standards of the day, tweaking the harmonies/ melodies and adding their own improvisational ideas.

-Both types of music place a large emphasis on improvisation. In Hip-Hop it's called freestyle.

-Like Hip-Hop, Jazz was an outlet for a culture largely shut out of the mainstream. Both styles of music were marginalized, maligned and generally considered lewd, crude and disgusting.

-Jazz was eventually co-opted and accepted by whites, which is happening as we speak in the hip hop world. This isn't a bad thing, as white folks had/have some nice things to add.

Finally, I must say that your characterization of Hip-hop as negative is as bad a generalization as saying all Christians are as lame as Pat Robertson. There is plenty of positive Hip-Hop out there. I'd suggest MeShell Ndegeocello, Eryka Badhu, Outkast and M.I.A. for starters.

The media spends much time attacking Hip-Hip, and buying into media distortions don't make you a racist.

The racism I speak of is subtle and internalized. If you were to recognize this racism in yourself, it would evaporate instantly upon recognition. I'm not trying to brand anyone with a scarlet R, this is just a plea for folks to be introspective and constantly in a state of self improvement.

We are all a product of our time, and although things are getting better, we have a long way to go before we are free from racism/sexism/classism/homophobia to name a few isms (and one phobia). If it exists in culture, it exists in you too.

Finally, I know I pissed many people off with this thread. It was intended to be light-hearted. I have arrived at these ideas after doing quite a bit of thinking, and didn't bother to fill in the space between A and B. In other words, I blurted out some unconventional, controversial ideas without telling you how I got to them.

Some of got it right away, but apparently others thought I was calling them Klansmen, and apparently others still ACTUALLY ARE KLANMEN (just kidding you know who.)

It probably would have been better to present these ideas as things I've discovered about myself, without forcing anyone to have to take a critical look inside their own soul. Forcing introspection is not polite.

Still, I think this discussion will be rattling around in sifty heads for some time, and at the very least, we've breached that most taboo of American taboos, racism. Maybe we should move on to classism..........

These debates, though useful in their own way, they tend to drive me nuts. With all the huge problems and examples we could examine we always hit the little ones.

As far as the NAACP goes they have had the debate over the name and left it the way it is partly out of inclusion, not exclusion or prejudice of any sort. Colored didn't and doesn't mean just black, it means non white and the group though mostly associated with the black community isn't focused just on them and wanted to be open to all who face similar issues. I'm sure there were other arguments and reasons but that's at least one of them.

If we wanted clear examples though of both institutional racism and of our own guilt in it as a society it's damned clear and easy to draw. Almost one young black man in eight between 25 and 29 years of age is behind bars right now, today. We lock them up at a rate almost 6 times higher than South Africa did at the height of apartheid. Not always due to worse crimes but all too often due to things like safe school zones being so close they overlap where they live while our kids spend little time in one. Or the 100 to 1 disparity between rock and powder cocaine which offers the same penalties for 5 grams of rock and 500 grams of powder, putting real dealers in the same cell as a stupid kid shopping for the weekend party. Add the problems associated with trying to fight any charge from the perspective of poverty and they never had a chance.

Almost one in eight between 25-29 and most of us don't even know, or if we do we don't think about it much. If that was in our neighborhoods we'd care fast enough but it isn't us so it isn't in our news, in our thoughts, or in our minds when we vote on these issues. Sure looks racist in effect even if not intent, why else is it so easy to ignore? Intentions didn't change the results any.

There are a lot of different types of prejudice, from institutional to society wide, but the least of our problems is what we think of someones taste in music or what we think of a groups name. Personally I think too much emphasis on the little things while we ignore the huge screaming issues just makes the whole subject easier to ignore entirely. I often sympathize with the arguments and those making them, I just don't see it as helpful.

Great, after reading this thread I find out I'm a racist

Might as well go all out eh?

Screw you all genders and colors of the world. Conform under one united character or ye shall face underhanded social prejudice and artists stealing your work and taking the credit!

jazz and hiphop... you don't have to debate that at all. it's like blues and rocknroll.

separating music up by genre is a good comparison to racism actually. really you have to understand there's good and bad in every genre, and it's not the genre that's at fault it's the musician. i have favourite genres, but i prefer quality and new discoveries over sameoldshit, regardless of genre.

you're genrist!!

and you end up generalising... thinking you know what rap is when you only heard a slice. that's your loss.

sorry but I take issue whenever someone patronizingly assumes "everyone" is/does anything and tells everyone how to be btter. The only thing EVERYONE does is breathe to stay alive.

I like you fine DFT but who are you to assume that anyone here is NOT introspective and vigilant and on guard against their own prejudices?
And lastly, I really think its rude to try to talk someone into liking a particular art/cultural standard. First you say "just about everything on commercial radio is drivel" yet you make a long fine argument for hip-hop/rap? SOrry but the hip-hop and rap that is on commercial radio is usually drivel too. It doesn't get a pass just because it's music for the non-majority. Plenty good rap and hip-hop I'm sure, but doubtful it's being played on the radio.

Smibbo,

These are just words. You are allowed to think and feel anything you want to. You are free to take my words anyway that you like, or dismiss them outright. I won't hold it against you.

I happen to believe that we are part of a unified culture, meaning that we all share the good and bad aspects of our culture. I believe that although I attempt to rid prejudice from my mind, that it still exists. It comes from the culture I was born and raised in, and it is unfortunately part of me. I believe this about everyone, including you. I could be wrong.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything, I'm just sharing my thoughts and ideas on subjects I care about.

IMO 85% of EVERY genre is crap, no special exceptions for Hip-Hop. I'm not even a big Hip-Hop fan, I just like to stick up for marginalized styles of music, like Hip-Hop and Country. I'm a music person and can find something to like about every genre.

No offense, but maybe your defensiveness means something. Please don't be offended by this sentence! I find that defensiveness in myself is usually a sign of some type of internal conflict. No assumptions, no accusations, just words from my brain. I could be wrong.

Are we cool, Smibbo?

separating music up by genre is a good comparison to racism actually. really you have to understand there's good and bad in every genre


I couldn't agree more.

And................... SCENE! See you all at the cast party.

I got one for you dtopianfyturetio....Am I "homophobic" (word created by homosexuals afraid of themselves) if I understand and find most homosexuals majorly FUCKED in the head?...In their half-assed sensibilities?
Am I trailer-trashphobic, if I don't want to hang with folks who live in their own filth and share their living arrangements with cockroaches and rats?
Am I racist, if, in the normal course of the day, I do not have relations, a meal, or share a doobie with a black man?
Am I a Nazi, if I collect Hitler memorabilia?
fuck man, what is the point of this, if not but to confound semantics, in order to make a filtered tunnel reality look the best it can for oneself?

Do you shudder when you read the word "nigger" written? Does it lessen your opinion of someone who types it? It's a fucking word in the lexicon used in the context of a discussion, eh? In your perfect world, do we all travel on a star ship, all races and creeds, breeding and discovering a perfect, faraway galaxy together, in search of a world where happy people think happy thoughts?
Sounds like your call to act and think without judgment just hit some bumps.....some white people are truly fucked up-not saying there isn't hope for ya, keep on truckin'!

In reply to this comment by choggie:
I got one for you dtopianfyturetio....Am I "homophobic" (word created by homosexuals afraid of themselves)...........Am I trailer-trashphobic...........Am I racist.......Am I a Nazi, if I collect Hitler memorabilia?

It's nothing personal, but I do believe that you and I both share the strengths and weaknesses of our culture, and homophobia, classism and racism are counted among those weaknesses. If I may be blunt, based on my experience, I do find that older generations are less accepting of gay people than younger generations.

I don't think you are a Nazi.

Do you shudder when you read the word "nigger" written?

No, I actually have a fascination for powerful and taboo words.

Does it lessen your opinion of someone who types it?

Depends on context.

It's a fucking word in the lexicon used in the context of a discussion, eh?

Natch.

In your perfect world, do we all travel on a star ship, all races and creeds, breeding and discovering a perfect, faraway galaxy together, in search of a world where happy people think happy thoughts?

I've never been a Star Trek fan. I have no perfect world for you Choggie. These are just observations. I could be wrong.

Sounds like your call to act and think without judgment just hit some bumps.....some white people are truly fucked up-not saying there isn't hope for ya, keep on truckin'!

You just lost me. Did I miss an epiphany?

I like you Choggie.