*debunked is the way polite people say bullshit.

Adding video to channels (Debunked) - requested by NetRunner.

Someone needs to tell Jim Carey and Jenny McCarthy.

Excellent * debunked submission. Stop by the channel sometime. Gonna doblepromote this when in leaves 1st page.

What about all the superbugs that vaccines are now responsible for? What I don't like about Penn and Teller's Bullshit, is when they pick a subject they choose what they want to talk about too narrowly. It's like the point of this show isn't to educate but to lash out at those who make some false claims...it's missing the script completely.

Super bugs aren't bread by vaccinations, but by mutations in existing strains through the process of evolution and survival of the fittest against immune systems and drugs. Vaccines eliminate you from that entire process by removing breeding grounds for this evolution to take place. Over and under medication are more in line with a topic of mutation in virus's and Bactria, not vaccines. In reality, not getting vaccinated aids in the cause of breeding super virus's, what looks like a normal flu season could just be the next pandemic if the flu virus mutates in just the right way. If no one could get flu, then it wouldn't matter.

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.

EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.

*nsfw

This video has been flagged as being Not Suitable For Work - declared nsfw by ant.

>> ^Yogi:

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.


Aye, you benefit from heard immunity. The fact that many of us can't even be infected means the amount of time the virus has to find a suitable host without a vaccine is very limited. We are basically your buffer state in the game of chess you are playing. And that works, for a time until heard immunity is destroyed.

And there are some very potentially lethal side effects to certain shots for certain age groups. Kids are the most resilient to shots and typically just bypass most of the negative effects. Not like us old timers, as many flu shot recipients can tell you, sometimes it is almost as bad as the real flu. For some, you get all of the minor symptoms of the sickness without the illness factor (it is your body overreacting to the inactive virus). They aren't perfect, no science ever is. But case study after case study has found no credible difference in general health in groups that have and haven't taken them. Medicine is a form of science after all, so you have to play by its rules if you are debating it with its rules.

We definitely take for granted that before vaccines, throughout human history, sickness was the overwhelming cause of death. For me, I generally error on the side of caution, and therefor don't want to die from my penis rotting off...so I get vaccines for myself. Laws requiring you to get them is a whole different can of beans, and a subject of a different story.

Penicillin is a bit different as it is a substance that is actually fighting the bacteria, where as vaccines are jump starting our own body to defend itself. Bactria are also living cells where as virus's are not. They are a dumber enemy is other words.

>> ^Yogi:

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.


Vaccines are not perfect, but they do the job of keeping 20-40% of our kids from ending up as dead or crippled for life.. (...on second thought, vaccines are perfect.)

Penicillin is "biting us in the ass" because the viruses bacteria it kills (you know the viruses bacteria that kills us if we dont kill them) develops resistance, or more accurately, the descendants of a tiny percentage of them that are immune to penicillin become more numerous down the generations. This is not an ideal situation for us humans, but penicillin is the best we've got. The one weakness of penicillin is that when we use it too much, viruses bacteria evolve to become resistant.

This is similar to why HIV patients, for instance are given medicines in "waves". One month on medication, and two months off, and so on, because during the course of medical treatment, the virus evovles resistance, and when its stopped, the non-resistant strains take over again, and you can start medicating again., this way you can keep the virus level down to a minimum.

Vaccines are a completely different matter. Vaccines work by triggering our immune system towards specific attacks, which means that they dont attack an evolving virus, but they prepare our bodies for attacks against them. Polio, for instance does not evolve to circumvent this protection, because it is denied access to evolve in the first place with mass-vaccination.

EDIT: correction on the bacteria/virus confusion. Thanks GeeSussFreek

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

I should point out that Penicillin has nothing to do with fighting virus's and everything to do with bacteria. Bacteria are a good thing to fear as they have always been a problem, and will most likely continue to be one for sometime. And in years to come, might become a serious problem. Virus's, however, could be completely eliminated once a vaccine is developed. Cold pox is no longer with us as evidence, and when was the last Polio victim? When talking about pathology, you have to understand that all things are not created equal. Just because Penicillin is loosing effectiveness doesn't mean vaccines do. And even if they do, that does negate the thousands, dare I say, hundreds of millions of lives they saved in the meantime.

By the way "Mr.healthy as a horse" the polio vaccine also blocks the transfer from patient to patient, which means that you might have the strain, and you might have infected others with it, and while they might suffer eternal crippledness from it, you could be among the lucky who never actually develops the disease, so enjoy your horsey healthiness.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
when was the last Polio victim?



Actually 413 in April this year, 19 dead, in Tajikistan. Thanks to vaccinations, the entire thing was over by June. Science: 1* , Jenny/antivaxx: NOT A FUCKIN THING.
Story:
http://vaccinecentral.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/tajikistan-polio-outbreak-halted-via-vaccines/
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/08/04/antivaxxers-take-note-vaccines-stop-polio-outbreak-in-tajikistan/
*actually roughly 500 each month and rising, but whos counting, we all just depend on it, after all.

Yes, I meant in a country that actively vaccinates. That is the flip side of the coin, and worth pointing out that a sickness that is basically dead in American is alive and well, and killing, people in other countries.

Penicillin is not a vaccine. It's an antibiotic.>> ^Yogi:

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.

>> ^Yogi:

even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.

How is it biting us in the ass?

At most, some strains of bacteria develop an immunity to antibiotics, so those particular antibiotics are less effective on those strains.

Resistant strains aren't stronger than normal strains, they're just harder to kill with antibiotics. How is that worse than not using antibiotics to begin with?

>> ^Yogi:

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.


1. Penicillin is an antibiotic, not a vaccine. (Whoops, looks like I'm not the only one to point this out.) Are you against medical science and progress as a whole? Too fancy for ya?

2. Correlation is not causation... I thought everyone could grasp that concept by now. Seriously.

VACCINES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! Goodnight.

>> ^Yogi:

What about all the superbugs that vaccines are now responsible for? What I don't like about Penn and Teller's Bullshit, is when they pick a subject they choose what they want to talk about too narrowly. It's like the point of this show isn't to educate but to lash out at those who make some false claims...it's missing the script completely.


>> ^Yogi:

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.

Wow looks like I really pissed off some people. Can vaccines trigger autoimmune diseases? I think they can...you know why I think this? Cause I've seen it...you can trust me...I'm a doctor.

And I really REALLY Hope I give everyone Polio.

>> ^Fletch:

Penicillin is not a vaccine. It's an antibiotic.>> ^Yogi:
Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.



I never said it was a vaccine. Did you see how I started a new sentence...and I put an "even" there after the ellipsis because it's a different subject related to the vaccine subject. In other words sometimes our science tends to come back and bite us in the ass.

No. Anecdotes ≠ evidence.
http://www.everydayhealth.com/autoimmune-disorders/can-vaccines-cause-autoimmune-disorders.aspx

>> ^Yogi:

Can vaccines trigger autoimmune diseases? I think they can...you know why I think this? Cause I've seen it...

>> ^BicycleRepairMan:

No. Anecdotes ≠ evidence.
http://www.everydayhealth.com/autoimmune-disord
ers/can-vaccines-cause-autoimmune-disorders.aspx
>> ^Yogi:
Can vaccines trigger autoimmune diseases? I think they can...you know why I think this? Cause I've seen it...



AHEM I think I've already said that I'm a doctor...not sure if you know what that means but it should completely end the argument right there. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

LOL! Of course you are. Ok, doctor, then you should have at least some basic understanding of evidence as it relates to scientific method, and realize that appeals to authority don't cut it. And since doctor can mean many things, your attempt was lazy and conceited at best. >> ^Yogi:
AHEM I think I've already said that I'm a doctor...not sure if you know what that means but it should completely end the argument right there. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As a student of medicine, I'd just like to point out the blatant trolling @Yogi is performing here. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE who has studied Immunology, Medical Statistics and Pharmacology wouldn't even make the arguments Yogi has because they would absolutely know better.

You call yourself a "doctor," I say you're an absolute quack.

Telling that you respond to my tiny, eight word comment, and not to the excellent, more verbose comments of BRM and GSF.

You compared/related two completely different things. While new influenza vaccines are required every year because of new strains constantly evolving, the influenza vaccine doesn't cause these new strains. Yes, science can indeed come back to bite us in the ass, but, so far, vaccines haven't, certainly not in the way antibiotics have. P&T never claimed vaccines were perfect (in fact, no one had claimed it when you raised this red herring). They are simply espousing the ridiculousness of the anti-vaccine movement when taken against the incredible amount of good vaccines have done for mankind, even if the claims of said movement were true. They weren't defending a thesis. They were simply, and succinctly, making a "big picture" comparison of universally known vaccine benefits and claimed vaccine detriments.

BTW, has anybody heard anything new as far as this research is concerned? I damn near cried when I watched this talk. It just blew me away. Then, recently, I read this, which seemed to be something similar. Is quorum sensing just smell?>> ^Yogi:

I never said it was a vaccine. Did you see how I started a new sentence...and I put an "even" there after the ellipsis because it's a different subject related to the vaccine subject. In other words sometimes our science tends to come back and bite us in the ass.

To be fair, this episode of P&T Bullshit! does have a doctor on it who, wrongly, argues against vaccinations. Turns out, that he's the same doctor Jenny McCarthy uses.

Just as we all know there are good police officers and shit police officers, the same applies for doctors( of medicine). That's life.

God you people really are a bunch of whiny bitches. Shut The Fuck Up. I don't care about your stupid little evidence and your stupid little posts. I was trying to start a debate and apparently I didn't do anything but unite everyone against me. Fuck off you self righteous assholes.

Quorum sensing seems like a more mechanical version of smell. Smell doesn't cause anything to directly occur (though it has very potent indirect triggers like nausea). Though, they could be exactly the same if the bacteria are counting the presence of communications. I want to know if the receptors are unable to take in signals unless the volume of communications cause a pressure that forces the receptor in the slot. In that case, it would be kind of like smell, but more like a trigger. If, however, the cell is just keeping track of how many communications is receives (keeping track of the volume of communications), then it is a programed response that resembles our own feelings of illness when a foul smell is in the air. In other words, from what I got out of that video, I think you are right; quorum sensing is nearly identical to smell.

What they pointed out rightfully in that other video, current antibacterials actually bread for stronger bacteria. If you could dumb down, bread out, or otherwise interfere with their order you wouldn't encourage such evolutions. That was a very great video there flech, I thank you for it.

And everyone take it easy on Yogi. I think a healthy dose of skepticism keeps us from making bad assumptions. Look at all the people that took radium as a cure all then later died. Vaccinations came in and took over without a real study to show if they had negative long term or unexpected consequences. They were adopted rapidly because the results of less kids dead from polio was viable. And, because of the recent speculations, we have real data now that shows they are indeed, mostly benign. If it wasn't for people being skeptical, we wouldn't have put the science forward to finding the answer to a question we should of asked a long time ago. Since then, we have about 3 different good studies that show vaccines are a non-factor in cancer, and other more neurological disorders.

>> ^Yogi:

God you people really are a bunch of whiny bitches. Shut The Fuck Up. I don't care about your stupid little evidence and your stupid little posts. I was trying to start a debate and apparently I didn't do anything but unite everyone against me. Fuck off you self righteous assholes.

If you wanted a debate were you never actually loose to people who counter bullshit with actual facts and evidence, go visit the
http://videosift.com/video/Monty-Python-The-Argument-Clinic-Full-Version">Argument Clinic.

>> ^BicycleRepairMan:

>> ^Yogi:
God you people really are a bunch of whiny bitches. Shut The Fuck Up. I don't care about your stupid little evidence and your stupid little posts. I was trying to start a debate and apparently I didn't do anything but unite everyone against me. Fuck off you self righteous assholes.

If you wanted a debate were you never actually loose to people who counter bullshit with actual facts and evidence, go visit the
http://videosift.com/video/Monty-Python-The-Argument-Clinic-Full-Version">Argument Clinic.


Ok you didn't get it so I'll ask nicer. Please PLEASE Shut the Fuck up. I'm tired of you talking...please for me just shut up.

>> ^Yogi:

>> ^BicycleRepairMan:
>> ^Yogi:
God you people really are a bunch of whiny bitches. Shut The Fuck Up. I don't care about your stupid little evidence and your stupid little posts. I was trying to start a debate and apparently I didn't do anything but unite everyone against me. Fuck off you self righteous assholes.

If you wanted a debate were you never actually loose to people who counter bullshit with actual facts and evidence, go visit the
http://videosift.com/video/Monty-Python-The-Argument-Clinic-Full-Versi
on">Argument Clinic.

Ok you didn't get it so I'll ask nicer. Please PLEASE Shut the Fuck up. I'm tired of you talking...please for me just shut up.


What a useless twat you must be, if you are "tired" of people on a public internet forum, then why the fuck would you keep reading it? Go do anything else then.

I can't believe I'm missing a new season of Bullshit!

Wow, this thread. Or Yogi at any rate. Are we getting comments from Youtube now or what?

Anyway, over here there's some hoopla right now about suspicions of the H1N1 vaccine Pandemrix causing narcolepsy. Apparently there's been a noticeable increase in new cases among children who received the vaccine (15 cases in the last half a year, where the average rate is 6 cases a year), and the health authorities are recommending discontinuation of the use of the vaccine until the cause can be ascertained. It's not know at this time if the vaccine is actually behind the increase or if some other factor or factors are at play, but the papers of course are reporting it as the vaccination scandal.

It may well turn out to be the vaccine causing this, and in general the whole H1N1 vaccination program seemed very rushed at the time considering the underwhelming mortality outside Mexico, but if I had been in a position to start the gears running for the program when the first outbreaks were seen, I can't say for sure I would have been against it. What pisses me off most about this is the miserable state of the debate around the whole issue. If it turns out the vaccine can cause narcolepsy, there's going to be a lot of people saying "I told you so" when their anti-vaccine position was based entirely on emotion and a decided lack of research. If it turns out something else was the cause, a lot of the same people are not going to believe it and still say it was the vaccine anyway. And since the vaccine has been blamed in the papers for ruining kids' lives for a week now, no amount of corrections will fix the damage done if the vaccinations aren't to blame after all.

Overall, people suck, debating skills seem to be at an all time low, I'm out.

>> ^Yogi:

>> ^BicycleRepairMan:
No. Anecdotes ≠ evidence.
http://www.everydayhealth.com/autoimmune-disord
ers/can-vaccines-cause-autoimmune-disorders.aspx
>> ^Yogi:
Can vaccines trigger autoimmune diseases? I think they can...you know why I think this? Cause I've seen it...


AHEM I think I've already said that I'm a doctor...not sure if you know what that means but it should completely end the argument right there. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


A doctor that doesn't understand the difference between penicillin and a vaccine is like a chef that doesn't understand the difference between a knife and a spatula.

AFAIK the current belief is that "superbugs" have arisen from people taking, for example, HALF of a course of anti-biotics. Of course, the more resilient bugs survive against the onslaught of the anti-biotic the longest, people think they're better and they stop taking the medication.

Meanwhile, the more resilient bugs are still alive because you didn't take the whole course. They breed with other more resilient bugs and create a host of "more resilient bugs".

Then, someone takes a nice strong antibiotic for those more resilient bugs. Same happens. Then the same happens again, and before you know it you've got bugs that are virtually impervious to antibiotics.

I was led to believe that "superbugs" weren't an inevitable side-effect of the use of antibiotics, but rather an effect of people not medicating correctly + time.

It's selective breeding, like we do with animals.

Alright, we've had a good laugh here. Ban him.

Just read yogi's comments. You'll get a full dose of bullshit!>> ^blankfist:

I can't believe I'm missing a new season of Bullshit!

Man, what kind of doctor is Yogi, anyway, if that's his attitude?

Any doctor that tells you, "I'm right because I'm a doctor," hasn't been paying attention.
Any doctor that tells you, "Shut up I don't want to hear your argument," is dangerous.

We're not perfect or infallible just because of our education, training, or experience.
The answer is never, "Because I'm a doctor," because I guarantee I can find a hundred doctors who disagree with you on just about any point you care to make. Thousands when it comes to controversial topics like vaccination risks.
A doctor should be able to explain the whys and the hows and understand the evidence for whatever claims they make. Current evidence, no less, because our fields are constantly changing. Attitudes shift as our understanding increases and situations change.

Getting down to the argument at hand (although only tangentially), case studies are weak evidence because they're very susceptible to pollution by coincident factors. Correlation ≠ causation and all that.

I like that they threw in* a lesson on statistics too.

Orange you glad you're vaccinated?








*Pun Intended.

My wife recently had an interesting vaccination related conversation with someone we know. This lady was incredulous that my wife had our 11 yr old daughter get the HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccine. Now this lady is very religious (most of you probably saw that one coming) and her argument is that it promotes sexual promiscuity. When my wife told me this all I could do is shake my head in disbelief. Apparently this is a widely held view in our area because when my wife told the nurse that she wanted our daughter to get the vaccine her eyes lit up and she said "Oh thank goodness! The huge majority of mothers who come in here won't even discuss it". My wife tried to explain to her that even if her daughter had no sexual activity until she was married, that would MAKE NO DIFFERENCE on what her future husband had done before getting married. Her hypothetical future husband could have all sorts of good stuff flying around in his body, and then her daughter is going to catch every thing he has because her mother was too fucking clueless to get her daughter vaccinated.

[redacted]

CDC Whistleblower Admits MMR Vaccine Autism Link has been added as a related post - related requested by ChaosEngine on that post.