Olbermann is wrong here. "Ground Zero" is not the place to build any kind of religious center. A place demolished by religion shouldn't be a place for religion to grow.

Put a swanky office building up already.

No "Prayer Space" in a place demolished by religion, please. I don't care what religion it is. None of it should be there.

Sorry Lore, I disagree. *promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Wednesday, August 18th, 2010 7:27am PDT - promote requested by darkrowan.

>> ^lore_weaver:

Olbermann is wrong here. "Ground Zero" is not the place to build any kind of religious center. A place demolished by religion shouldn't be a place for religion to grow.
Put a swanky office building up already.
No "Prayer Space" in a place demolished by religion, please. I don't care what religion it is. None of it should be there.


Can't help but get the sense that you didn't really watch the movie at all. Like Olbermann said it's not ground zero at all, it's just another part of freaking Manhattan that is totally uninteresting to anyone at all until someone decides to build an Islamic center there. Then shit hits the fan.

And should they then also close down the current Islamic prayer space and tear down the several Churches there? That doesn't seem realistic, fair nor right in any sense at all.

@Lithic maybe it's just because I'm always posting politics, but it seems like lately a lot of the people who come by to express their dissent with whatever I'm posting just respond to what's in the title, without watching the vid.

It's so funny, because they usually present an argument the video specifically refutes.

Olbermann is a very smart and rational guy. His points are all spot on. I'm not as smart, educated or politically informed as him but...

In regards to his pointing to the goals of the founding fathers, that shit is just about out the fucking window. It went out the window when we circumvented, misrepresented and distorted the views of the founding fathers countless times to get where we are now.

As far as religious tolerance. I donno... it sounds good and righteous... but maybe it's fucking not.

Though it's pretty darn close to ground zero, that's barely the point. One thing worth considering, is that we don't know what they're preaching and praying for in these places. Doesn't their official doctrine, the Koran call for the abolishment of all other forms of worship? Sure, we don't know what they're preaching and therefore ought not act upon information we can't know. But it worries me a little.

Lastly, I wish there was this level of outrage against damned churches being built anywhere. I'm fucking sick of the church wasting our resources. The average salary of a priest is 'bout 30k a year. That's as much as a teacher.

Also, muslim people reproduce like crazy. A lot of these women are fucking baby factories. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 kids easy. That's nothing. I mean, haven't/aren't they pretty much taking over europe? And then demanding seperate legal systems to settle their crimes?

Where will humanity be in 50 years when 80% of the population belongs to a fundamentalist anti science cult.

And aren't most muslims fundamentalists? I could be wrong here. I know the extremists are the minority, but as far as those who try and follow the Koran's teachings to the T, they are the majority, no? I'm saying a greater percentage of muslims are fundamentalists compared to the percentage of christians who are fundamentalists, no?

How long after they are 50% of the pop. will they be 100% of the pop?

Make no mistake about it, christianity might be just as much of a cult, but it's entered the modern era. Islam is a dark ages cult.

No rights for women like that... we cannot tolerate that. As much as I sometimes wish I lived in the 1850's and could command my gf around, that's not right.

So ya. No rights for women, no rights for mosques?

I donno. You decide.

@Matthu: There are over 600,000 muslims living in NYC. Do you see the place blowing up every weekend? There is already a mosque one block from this one. Should that now be demolished because it hurts Gingrich's fee-fee's? What about the mosque that's INSIDE THE PENTAGON?

And no. Most muslims aren't fundamentalists. If they were, they sure as fuck wouldn't be living in NYC.

Muslim's do have lots of kids. But so do catholics! My family has 6 of us, and I have some 48 cousins. Are you fearful of the be catholic takeover of America?

Last: People keep saying "a mosque near ground zero!". Well, the USA have been building Ground Zero's around mosques in Iraq for over 7 years now.

@Matthu : Oh lord and lady where do I start with you.

1) The founding fathers wrote The Constitution as a living document. They realized, 234 years ago, that shit changes. Mountains move, rivers redirect their flow, and the prevalence of a thought changes. When they wrote "All men are created equal" they meant, at the time, "All white land owning men are created equal." If you want to go around touting an unreasonable idea that our current or future freedoms are explicitly stated in the document you set yourself up for failure just on that note.

2) Preaching and Prayer are too different things. It's the difference between a fire and brimstone sermon and "As I lay me down to sleep." One would, yes, be happening at Park 51, but not the one you fear.

3) Are most Muslims fundamentalist? No, just as most Christians aren't either. And if you have to say "I could be wrong" 99% of the time you will be. Just a little Pro-Tip for ya.

4) Christianity is mainstream, I will admit this. But I rally against stopping this community center for the same reason you seem to want to ban churches: We have freedom of religion, yet we are acting intolerant of anything that isn't the mainstream. We claim to fight for minorities while at the same time trying to limit them or outright eliminate them.

5) I got new for you: Despite your claims Christianity is still King of Kings in terms of religion. Where do you get 80% by 2050, and what sources to they cite? Please, enlighten me!

6) I am, however, going to agree with you on what is happening to women. But it's not Islam's fault. It's our (men) meat heads, not religion, that is the cause. You see it in America where it's a monumental even to have some position filled by a woman that isn't a sexual one. Islam.is.not.to.blame. We are inherently fucked up as a species, driven both by sapience and instinct.

I posted to my blog earlier my other thoughts on this so I'll just leave that link there .

@Matthu...
oh nevermind.
i dont have a big enough shovel to dig through your post.
read a book..please,
and i say that with all the humanity and compassionate sincerity i can muster.

>> ^Matthu:

Olbermann is a very smart and rational guy. His points are all spot on. I'm not as smart, educated or politically informed as him but...
In regards to his pointing to the goals of the founding fathers, that shit is just about out the fucking window. It went out the window when we circumvented, misrepresented and distorted the views of the founding fathers countless times to get where we are now.(@darkrowan's argument summed it up pretty nicely)
As far as religious tolerance. I donno... it sounds good and righteous... but maybe it's fucking not.('What if?' arguments are never strong, and only used to scare people into agreeing with you)
Though it's pretty darn close to ground zero, that's barely the point. One thing worth considering, is that we don't know what they're preaching and praying for in these places.(Sounds like you should do some research and find out) Doesn't their official doctrine, the Koran call for the abolishment of all other forms of worship?(Ask any moderate Muslim if this is true) Sure, we don't know what they're preaching and therefore ought not act upon information we can't know. But it worries me a little.(You just contradicted your own argument in the same paragraph. Islam has been around a relatively long time, it's the second largest religion. Under your assumptions we would be facing one hell of a holy war, but we're not! Also, using the "worries me" argument is another form of fear mongering to try and get people to agree with you. People usually fear what they do not know/understand.)
Lastly, I wish there was this level of outrage against damned churches being built anywhere. I'm fucking sick of the church wasting our resources. The average salary of a priest is 'bout 30k a year. That's as much as a teacher. (Religion can be considered the world's oldest Corporation. They get great perks, have great real estate, and even have their own banks! I don't necessarily disagree with you on this one.)
Also, muslim people reproduce like crazy. A lot of these women are fucking baby factories. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 kids easy. That's nothing. I mean, haven't/aren't they pretty much taking over europe? And then demanding seperate legal systems to settle their crimes?(@volumptuous pretty much tore you up on this one)
Where will humanity be in 50 years when 80% of the population belongs to a fundamentalist anti science cult.
And aren't most muslims fundamentalists? [citation needed] I could be wrong here.(And you might well be without doing any research and just playing off assumptions) I know the extremists are the minority, but as far as those who try and follow the Koran's teachings to the T, they are the majority, no?[citation needed] I'm saying a greater percentage of muslims are fundamentalists compared to the percentage of christians who are fundamentalists, no?[citation needed]
How long after they are 50% of the pop. will they be 100% of the pop?(More fear mongering)
Make no mistake about it, christianity might be just as much of a cult, but it's entered the modern era. Islam is a dark ages cult.(Christianity is only 600 years older than Islam)
No rights for women like that... we cannot tolerate that.(We shouldn't tolerate it anywhere) As much as I sometimes wish I lived in the 1850's and could command my gf around, that's not right.
So ya. No rights for women, no rights for mosques?(Maybe you should ask a moderate who believes in Islam his thoughts on this? His views on the matter might surprise you.)
I donno. You decide.
Arguments made are always better when research is done and you can source them. You might even answer a lot of your own questions while looking up this information. Just to clarify, I'm not a Muslim. I don't consider myself a follower of any religion, but I'm not "worried" about what might happen if they "have lots of terrorist babies and breed everywhere".

*quality post by Olbermann. Below is a slight critique of your arguments (in bold), @Matthu.

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by Tymbrwulf.

I can't believe this is an issue up for debate. Fox news is killing our nation.

>> ^Truckchase:

I can't believe this is an issue up for debate. Fox news is killing our nation.


The entire farce that is the right-wing political machine that cultivates this kind of shit for their own purposes is what's killing our nation.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^Truckchase:
I can't believe this is an issue up for debate. Fox news is killing our nation.

The entire farce that is the right-wing political machine that cultivates this kind of shit for their own purposes is what's killing our nation.


Enlighten me then, why is this something that is worthy of intelligent debate? In an environment free of the political machine you're inferring doesn't exist, how does this continue to get (inter)national attention?

Olberman / MSNBC and all it Leftest GE ilk controlled media outlets are so misleading. Go drink the Kool aid. Thank God there are clear thinking accurate fair and balanced news and commentary on FOX.

This is the kind of misleading "news" that fools the un intelligent and let them think they are correct.

The placing of the mosque anywhere near this area is an insult to America.


Hey nerunner do you even know what America is?

>> ^Truckchase:

Enlighten me then, why is this something that is worthy of intelligent debate? In an environment free of the political machine you're inferring doesn't exist, how does this continue to get (inter)national attention?


Uh, maybe we got our wires crossed somewhere -- I'm in vigorous agreement with you, I just think blaming "Fox News" is far too narrow, it's the whole political right in America that's to blame.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^Truckchase:
Enlighten me then, why is this something that is worthy of intelligent debate? In an environment free of the political machine you're inferring doesn't exist, how does this continue to get (inter)national attention?

Uh, maybe we got our wires crossed somewhere -- I'm in vigorous agreement with you, I just think blaming "Fox News" is far too narrow, it's the whole political right in America that's to blame.


My bad, for some reason I read your post as sarcastic, which is especially odd because I've read alot of your posts previously and didn't really have a basis to think as such. I need 1>more coffee and 2> to stop multitasking so much.

You're right, I'm just particularly miffed at Fox for this one because of the continued devoted coverage.

Here's a large part of the over-arching issue as I see it: There now seems to be some sort of inherent equity in ideas in our culture. When any news outlet can create two sides to an issue, they do, regardless of the strength of the "sides". To see the world in such a way is scary; very few things are inherently "right" or "wrong", there are all sorts of variables that must be weighed. Since we've (we as a society) begun splitting what once were relatively complicated issues into polarized opposites we unintentionally enabled the side effect of this sort of equity of voice, in that people entirely unqualified to weigh in on a topic now feel empowered to do so by hitching their wagon to whichever "side" more closely resembles what they believe to be their set of values. People who at one time would have been laughed out of a public forum now fall in line behind an overly-simplistic rallying cry.

Don't let that first sentence be misleading however, I would never condone silencing any idea. I'm simply stating that when a decision point is boiled down to two competing extremes, it's generally one extreme or the other that will prevail. Right now the conservatives in the US aren't afraid to take their message to a (what I believe to be) unreasonable extreme on a regular basis because of the vocal support of persons who formerly didn't take part in serious political discussion for fear of being mocked due to their lack of education, ability, or downright anti-social tendencies.

And that's why I love Videosift, because most of the people aren't like that.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm undecided on the issue, and as such, am not propagating any particular side. Nor am I trying to fear monger, though I may be expressing my own concerns of the unknown, when I speak of Islam, I'm speaking of Islam as it is proscribed by the Koran. Though there certainly are many moderate muslims, the Koran's demands are worrisome:

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)"

"Strive hard (Jihad) against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (66:9, See also 9:73)"

"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." (8:12-13)"

In regards to my comment on the founding fathers' views and expectations having been corrupted, I was referring specifically to the power given to the banks. Here's Thomas Jefferson's view on banks:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The
issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to
whom it properly belongs."

As far as my worry about what they're preaching and praying for in mosques, how can I know for certain? Shall I infiltrate them? There's a mosque right around the corner from my house. Shall I attempt to gain entry? My best bet would be wearing a full cloth bag and pretending to be a chick! Yes... 'tis an excelent plan. Or maybe I'll just walk in and see how they react to my curiosity.

Funny story about that mosque actually, when I was a young kid I was biking around with a muslim friend and he needed to go to the mosque for a bit, he wanted me to come with said it wouldn't be long. I was pretty hesitant as I didn't feel it was appropriate, we biked to the back of the mosue where everyone was happy and cheerful and smiling and random muslims were coming up to shake my hand, lol, until my friend said nono he's not muslim. Anyhow, it was a little awkward. His holy book says this about me:

"Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe(8:55)"

Regarding the Koran demanding the abolishment of all non-muslim religions, why would a moderate muslim have a different answer than a non-moderate muslim? The Koran either says it or it doesn't say it. Oh wait, I forgot. Religious words can be interpreted, misinterpreted and reinterpreted. Religion is so convenient and easily defended that way.

Also, Atheists are, or should be, fighting holy wars all day long. Fighting for better spending of resources, fighting for good science, and fighting against religion when it seeks to undermine, conceal, distort, exaggerate or otherwise abuse the truth to the great detriment of people.

And lastly, you defend Islams oppression of women by purporting that I should troll the streets in search of self-proclaimed moderate muslims and ask their opinions on the conditions of women? That's just silly. I can only speak on what I see, and what I see are TONS of women psychologically manipulated into roles of subordination. They gladly don their cloth bags in my neighborhood, if I were to spend the day on my stoop, in 35ºC weather, counting how many women walk by fully concealed, I would count many dozen.

One last thought: I'm not even American, I'm Canadian, but it seems Americans expect a lot of themselves. It's strange. You've got tons of people saying, "Hey, we'll be righteous and good, we will let them build a muslim community center a couple hundred feet from where muslims flew planes into our buildings and murdered close to FOUR THOUSAND of our brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers, in one fell swoop."

But then when Americans invade other countries, some undevelopped and third-world, murder, rape and pillage resources, everyone stays quiet. There's no outrage. It's funny to me is all, America portrays itself as some morale bastion of freedom, justice and righteousness when it's not. And that's fine. It doesn't have to be.

Quit being hypocrites and tell them to go fuck themselves. Maybe next time their brother knocks down your sand castle at the beach they'll speak the fuck up a bit louder and tell him to quit ruining their good thing.

I'm sorry if this has been inflammatory or offensive in any way. It's a very contentious issue, and I'm happy I'm not the one having to make a decision on this. I don't hate any group. I have a lot of disdain for religion in general, but I am not so ignorant that I would hate blindly, nor should the ignorant be hated upon.

“The tax which will be paid for the purpose of education is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance” -Thomas Jefferson

>> ^Truckchase:

Here's a large part of the over-arching issue as I see it: There now seems to be some sort of inherent equity in ideas in our culture. When any news outlet can create two sides to an issue, they do, regardless of the strength of the "sides". To see the world in such a way is scary; very few things are inherently "right" or "wrong", there are all sorts of variables that must be weighed. Since we've (we as a society) begun splitting what once were relatively complicated issues into polarized opposites we unintentionally enabled the side effect of this sort of equity of voice, in that people entirely unqualified to weigh in on a topic now feel empowered to do so by hitching their wagon to whichever "side" more closely resembles what they believe to be their set of values. People who at one time would have been laughed out of a public forum now fall in line behind an overly-simplistic rallying cry.

That's a big part of what's keeping these kinds of hateful and misguided ideas from being squelched -- the media has become entirely dominated by false equivalence (aka "Opinions on shape of Earth differ" journalism). There's no attempt to illuminate truth, and call bullshit when they see it, instead they just give a megaphone to "both" sides' bullshit, and refuse to validate or invalidate what's being said, at risk of offending either party's supporters (and thereby risk losing their subscription/viewership).

Some blog I read put it really well about how the mindset of business of mass media has changed. It went something like: It used to be that the programming was the product, the listeners were the customer, and advertising was the vehicle that made it possible. Now the listeners are the product, the advertisers are the customers, and the programming is the vehicle that makes it possible.

That essentially sums up the entire reason why we've seen mass media turn into what it has across the board, not just in journalism.

@Matthu

In all of your rant you make a couple of valid comments but they are completely nullified by the rest of your crap. I can't be bothered to comment on most of it (others have already done so) but I would really like to see your source for the comment "murdered close to TEN THOUSAND of our brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers, in one fell swoop". By what system of logic does 2,976 count as close to 10,000? Just asking.

BTW to paraphrase Natalie Mainse, I am ashamed that you're Canadian.

At one point in the US, it was reasonable to hear someone say something along the lines of "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to say it."

Now we've got Newt Gingrich et al throwing every soundbite they can muster at this. It is "hallowed ground". Muslims are universally fundamentalists and extremists. They just want to train more terrorists. We can't trust them. It would be like holding a neo-nazi rally next to the holocaust museum.

At one point Americans had the integrity to refrain from trying to quash any opinion, belief, or statement contrary to their own. We had the balls to stand up for freedom of speech, religion, and assembly even when they stood for something we disagreed with. Now we've got Newt Gingrich, who if given the chance to be "emperor for a day" of the USA would apparently spend his day wiping his ass with the constitution and causing more harm to the key tenets of our country than 1,000 Osama Bin Laden's could ever manage.

However I'll stand up and say that I'm glad Newt et al are saying these things, and glad they have the right to do so, because otherwise people might not have such abundant direct evidence of what a bunch of fascist, constitution-undermining dirtbags they are.

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