the young turks break the numbers down:

'You are here because of your actions, don't blame the corrections dept, or the cops, or the judge...'
He intentionally ignores the fact that the corrections dept is the largest lobbying group in Washington and lobbies for more draconian laws and mandatory sentences because that's how they make money. No inmates, no dough.

'You gave up your rights by committing murder....committing rape....'
He intentionally ignores the fact that most convicts are in prison for non-violent drug crimes, not murder, not rape, not violent crime at all.

'This is prison utopia...for the inmates.'
He seems too dense and set in his 'us VS them' mentality to see that it's prison utopia for the guards too, and society in the long run because this prison doesn't create violent criminals, it creates well adjusted citizens.

Imagine that, treating inmates like human beings, because we want them to act like human beings when they're released. And big surprise, it works! Not only less recidivism, but less problems while they're in the system as well.
Thanks to privatization and profitization of prisons and lobbying by prison guard unions, and a mindset by so many that all 'criminals' are sub-humans that don't deserve proper treatment, we'll never see this in the USA.

It would have been nice to hear more from a Norwegian prison official about why they design their prisons the way they do, and less of the bewildered hardass new yorker. Still, just seeing what they've built is pretty amazing.

I wonder if this is typical or if it's only for the best connected white collar criminals.

I think the bigger issue is not with difference in the facility that's housing inmates, it's the inmates themselves. That and the difference in the number of inmates being housed.

Prisons in America are filled with the closest that human beings can be to wild animals where their primal instincts guide most of their actions at all times. It's a cultural problem, in that such people are also like that before going to prison, so if they were placed into a luxurious retreat as shown in this video, it wouldn't work except with a small subset of prisoners.

Wild animals don't care much about being civil or civilized because that would mean demonstrating weakness, and a man in that position cannot afford to be made to look weak (as Mr. Woltz kind of said in The Godfather).

The primary goal of most prisoners in America with relation to everyone around them is to ensure they are perceived as tough. That means 10 prisoners sharing a living area will only be peaceful as long as it takes for someone to feel someone else is looking at them in a manner they dislike or until one guy bumps into another or one guy simply wants to assert his dominance as an alpha male by beating or shanking or raping another guy.

I don't think American prisoners need to be caged and punished like animals, just that when violent American criminals are being imprisoned, what you're doing in most cases is caging animals, regardless of how well or poorly the cage is designed.

This is also a norwegian prison:
[url redacted]

The thing that many people forget is that spending 10, 15 or 20 years outside of the society is the punishment. Even though you have a nice television or a kitchen, you are still not free. You can`t go out to meet friends, family or wife/girlfriend. Your life is on hold. If you do something stupid as a 19-year old person, I belive that most of the people can change by the time you are 30 or 35. And you still got the punishment of loosing every single thing that every one of us have experienced during our 20`s.

Prison is no utopia for either guard or inmate. It is gross, dehumanizing and worse. If we take that into context, in theory, we should feel sad and understanding for both sides. Guards, like convicts, snap and is it any wonder why?

Also, the jails where I live are quiet, calm, boring. Oh the inmates hate it. It is actually funny to hear how boring it is and that they would rather live out West or somewhere. Like, really? (Boring means more humane btw.)

"Why have 'em in prison anyway?"

Well, you seemed to have missed the word "corrections" in the name of the entity you retired from. I know it's basically a euphemism, but still. It's not named the Department of Punishment.

Recidivism in the NY State prison system, 65%

In Norway, 16%

Which system makes more sense? Sure Norway probably spends 2-3 times more per prisoner-year, but they have a 10th of the US prison population (as a percentage of total population), so in reality they're saving 60-70% of the costs over the US model.

USA is about punishment. Trouble with some small country: bomb it. Trouble with a larger country: economic sanctions. Trouble with crime: destroy their lives.

Nordic countries: rehabilitate so they can have a better lives and return to the tax paying, well behave folks. If it is countries, talk. Negotiate. (of course that last one is a bit different, nordic countries are VERY small so we can't just use force.) But the biggest difference is the need to punish, to make others suffer. This echoes all the way thru USA model: lose your house, fuck you, you are on your own. Get sick, lose your job end up stealing, fuck you, you made that choice.

I know criminals, hell, i am one. Prisoners do not behave badly if you keep them sane. That means giving them something meaningful to do, trust them, give them decent living. Prisons STILL frighten people. My upcoming two months sentence, damn, i haven't slept well in ages. I have done everything i could to reduce the sentence, to stay one more day out here. And i know that the place i will go is like a summer camp. Camp that i can not leave.

Guess which one works? I do have my own business in the works, i work everyday, i study, educate myself and i have full knowledge that once those 68 days are over, i can return back to regular life and continue my healthy plans (and if you wonder what i did, i am homegrower, never have hit anyone in my life, non-violent offender. My only crime is my love for weed, a substance that is going soon to be legal) I know a lot of guys that have been in prison, most of them come out better than they went in. Yes, we do have repeat offenders. That is very small percentage comparing to USA. If punishment would work, if the deterrent of longer sentences worked, there wouldn't be revolving doors. We know that there will always be small minority that will end up in prison, no matter if the punishment would be capital. Always. You have thieves in countries that chop your hands off. But if we treat instead punish, the ones that have a chance for good life, take it...

Guards have the power to make it what they wish. Inmates do not. The guards choose to make it gross, dehumanizing, and worse. We should NOT feel sad or understanding for them, as they did it to themselves intentionally. Feel sad for the one's with 0 power to control the situation, less and less control over their own actions and surroundings, and the one's that are the victims of the system they didn't set up, not the one's perpetrating and perpetuating the one sided system set up to punish and control rather than correct and re-habilitate. Not the one's that lobby to create MORE prisoners for smaller and smaller crimes, including the crime of poverty.
BTW....boring is NOT more humane in most cases. Lack of stimulation leads to psychosis, behavior problems, and does absolutely nothing to re-habilitate. "Idle hands are the devil's tools..." and such. Just look at any study of what happens to those in solitary, a normal 'boring' type of imprisonment today. You don't get well adjusted citizens from that, you get angry, violent, paranoid, psychotic people out of that....and they go right back in. It's perfect for the prisons, but not for anyone else. I think private prisons should have to pay back part of their 'fees' if a prisoner re-offends. (EDIT: or better yet, they should have to re-imprison them for free, since they failed the first time and 'created' the re-offender by not re-habilitating them. Guaranteed, it would change overnight if that was the case.) It means they failed completely in re-habilitation, a large part of what they're paid for, and so they should not be paid in full.
'Would rather live out west'?....as opposed to living in prison? Um...yeah, I think most people would choose that.

@lucky760
um...what?
inmates are wild animals?

i guess i could get on board with your opinion if the parameters were exclusively directed toward extremely violent psycho/sociopaths.

otherwise your comment makes no sense.
2.4 million inmates in american prisons.the majority for non-violent offenses (think pot smokers),70% are non-white and to singularly lump them all as somehow being "wild animals" unworthy of participating in normal society,reveals a serious lack of understanding.

the american penal system dehumanizes and has zippo to do with rehabilitation OR corrections.
which is why i referenced the milgram experiment.

treat someone with humanity,even if they are paying a debt to society,and the results will always be a better outcome than what we do to prisoners here in the states.

the american penal system is a racket,a business.it commodifies the poor and those not deemed "of value" and its a travesty.something we should all be ashamed of,not celebrating.

It's cause fundamental Christianity is punishing and the US zeitgeist is predominantly Christian. It permeates everything.

How many violent criminals are in Norway's prisons? According to TYT, the U.S. has almost 10 times as many homicides as Norway, so I think it's safe to assume that U.S. prisons hold a much higher percentage of violent criminals. Coincidentally, violent criminals are far more likely to be repeat offenders.

Poverty is another factor to consider. Poverty and crime are directly correlated. Many people commit crimes out of desperation. After being released from prison, their situation doesn't change. Regardless of your skills, finding a job as an ex-convict isn't easy (hell, finding a job as regular citizen isn't easy these days) and the likelihood of getting one that actually pays more than minimum wage is pretty low. If "freedom" means living in a shithole apartment and barely surviving by doing tedious, demeaning and low-paying work (or even taking multiple jobs), is incarceration really any worse? You'll still be doing tedious work but you won't have to worry about paying for rent, water, electricity, food, gas, healthcare, insurance, etc.

So, what would happen if we made American prisons as nice and cushy as the ones in Norway? Would crime actually decrease? Or would criminals simply see prison as a mild slap on the wrist? Or even a step up from their current situations? If our current prisons aren't scary enough to deter people from breaking the law, would a spa-like prison be any more effective? Hell, there are already recorded cases of people intentionally getting arrested in the U.S. so they can go to prison and not have to worry about living on the street. If our prisons were as nice as Norway's, these cases would only become more common.

People like to focus exclusively on recidivism rates but those aren't the only statistics that matter. And if you really only care about recidivism, you should be all for the dealth penalty. After all, death row prisoners have a 0% recidivism rate.

Lots of TL/DR here, but I'd just like to say it's funny how the US prison is called a "Correctional Facility" and the Norwegian correctional facility is called a "prison".

@Jerykk
i cant make heads nor tails what you are trying to convey.
are you making an argument for harsher prisons?
or an assertion that if they were less harsh people would WANT to go to prison?
that recidivism is irrelevant so we should just execute prisoners?

i agree that poverty leads to desperation which can lead to criminal activity.there is plenty of statistics to back that up,though interestingly those numbers are dropping in regards to poverty=crime.

as for your deterrence argument.
yeah..no.the numbers obviously dont add up.
right now there are more american citizens incarcerated than the soviet gulags of the 80's.in fact,america incarcerates more citizens per capita than any other nation in the world.

americas prison population=2.4 million..and rising.

which leads me to my next point.
what is the purpose of prison?
well,it should be to remove those violent elements from society and for the offenders who are non-violent a way to pay a debt to the society they betrayed (fill in the offense here ____).

when their time has been served (paid) then they are free to rejoin society and reintegrate themselves back into society.

but what if that system of punishment strips you of all dignity and humanity?treats you like an abandoned dog at the local animal shelter?physically beaten and spiritually shattered,just HOW to you rejoin normal society?

what then?
do you blame the inmate who was thrown into a inhumane system?or maybe..juuuuust maybe..it may be the SYSTEM which is the blame.

let us look at some stats shall we?
the private prison industry is the 9th largest lobbiest in the country.who lobby for stricter sentencing,zero tolerance and mandatory jail time.a new trend in this area is now regarding teens AND pre-teens.they also make contracts with the local government to have a certain % occupancy.(meaning that even if those beds are not filled,the company STILL gets paid).

and lets not forget those kick backs to the local judges.already 25 judges this year got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

the idea that prison is a deterrence has been debunked.
there are over 5000 federal laws NOT including state and local.so at any given time,in any given day,YOU have perpetrated a federal crime.

the idea the prison is for rehabilitation is utter bullshit,another liberal feel-good "look at the good we are doing" trope.

prison is a business.
based on the mafia principle.
it is about making the poor a commodity and exploiting their lack of resources to fight back.
recidivism?
thats just repeat customers.american prisons care zippo about recidivism.

again i reference the milgram experiment.
treat people like animals and they will soon behave like animals.
treat them with humanity and dignity and the outcome is far more positive for a society as a whole..we ALL benefit.

but the private prisons dont want that..it means less profit for them.

the norden is doing it right and the results are impressive.

@enoch

I'm not arguing that American laws are entirely reasonable. I'm simply arguing that, given America's significantly higher violent crime rates, American prisons have a much higher percentage of violent criminals than Norway's prisons. These criminals would love Norway's prisons and would be perfectly fine living in them.

The U.S. and Norway are very different countries with very different cultures, economic situations and crime rates. What works for Norway won't necessarily work for the U.S. One statistic I'd love to know is the recidivism rate for non-violent criminals in the U.S. I imagine it's significantly lower than the recidivism rate for violent criminals.