Christ, what an asshole.

Hey asshole, why aren't you speaking Native American?

Edit: that was aimed at the senator btw

I'm pretty sure if both you folks had lived in Mexico or any other country for a quarter century you'd have the decency to address people in the language of the land. And if you were illiterate I'm sure you wouldn't clamour on about stuff that is owed to you.

This Mestizo's insolence is insulting, but we are the fools who permitted and encouraged his insularization.

This may be news to many Americans, but you guy's don't actually have an official national language. This man has brought along an interpreter, what's the problem!?

while i certainly dont think speaking the "unofficial" language of america should be a requirement for citizenship, it does say something about the individual who has lived in the states for two decades and still cannot speak english conversationally.

similarly it would be foolish of me to move to mexico (or any non english speaking country for that matter), live, work, and commute for 20 years and still not be able to speak enough spanish to have a conversation with a native

if you ask me, theyre both assholes

american immigration issues are far more complex than "speak english or get out/speak spanish and accomodate me" but that, sadly, has become the narrative

SPEAK ENGLISH

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Oh sorry.

El liberalismo es un trastorno mental.

>> ^Ti_Moth:

This may be news to many Americans, but you guy's don't actually have an official national language. This man has brought along an interpreter, what's the problem!?


Taking twice as long to deliver the testimony, for no reason?

Isn't he representing an immigrant community that may not understand him if he only spoke english? I figured that was why he was doing it.

He is an American citizen, and not an English native speaker. No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never. He wants to deliver his deposition (or whatever) accurately, which he knows he can only do in Spanish. He isn't participating in a conversation with friendly responsive interlocutor who will ensure that he was properly understood, so he's doing it in Spanish with the help of a native speaking interpreter.

Also, the fact that he brought an interpreter speaks to how important accurate communication is to him. It's the same with fully fluent but non-native speakers in courtrooms, who often use interpreters. No matter how high my level of another language is, I would never want to use any language but English for something official like this.

Further, some people simply cannot learn second languages well, no matter how long they work at it. I'm a teacher of English as a second language, and though it's rare, I have seen several students who simply cannot learn the language no matter how hard they study. One highly intelligent friend of mine has been in full-time English language classes for three years (over 3000 hours) while living in an English speaking country, but is only comfortable with basic "How-are-you-my-name-is" type of conversations. He just has a block, and if he ever wants to give a deposition in Canada, he's going to have to do it through an interpreter.

He's not an asshole.

>> ^Pprt:

This Mestizo's insolence is insulting

I don't feel like addressing the rest of your comment but I am curious, how do you know he's Mestizo?

>> ^quantumushroom:

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Tribalism is a mental disorder. You're at least as sick as anyone else on this site.

Also just because you live in a country does not mean that country is where you are. There are parts of America where it's basically it's own country. They have their own laws, language, and social requirements. If you don't ever leave that area I don't see the problem.

The man is a Mestizo because Hispanics looks like this: http://videosift.com/video/Carving-the-Mountains

As for messenger: your complacency is precisely why the West is spiralling into a nonentity.

I'll throw in the same argument as above: if you have lived in Korea for 25 years and failed to learn the language, would you consider yourself Korean? Would you have the gall to go before a government body and provide testimony that you expect more be done for "your people" in English or French?

>> ^messenger:

He is an American citizen, and not an English native speaker. No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never.

bull fucking shit. My interpreter in afghanistan who has never left the country spoke fluently 6 languages and when he spoke english with us, he spoke it like an american (slang, etc). There was literally nothing that we could say to him that he wouldnt understand or not be able to interpret. he learned pashtu from growing up, he learned dari, english, oordu, and arabic from school, he learned to be fluent in those languages from speaking with native speakers of those languages.

its completely irrelevant that english is not the official declared language of america when it is the de facto national language.

but....reviewing the video again, it appears, i can only speculate, that he may very well speak and understand english perhaps fluently (given the exchange between him and the senator). Also given the nature of the hearing, that he is speaking on behalf of mexican immigrants who may not speak english well or at all, it would seem natural to me that some sort of interpretation be present so all parties could be accommodated.

personally i find it embarrassing that incidents such as this one have become the narrative for US immigration issues.......as if theyre that simple. If everyone, including immigrants, spoke english, immigration issues (particularly illegal immigration) are not gonna up and disappear

>> ^messenger:

Further, some people simply cannot learn second languages well, no matter how long they work at it. I'm a teacher of English as a second language, and though it's rare, I have seen several students who simply cannot learn the language no matter how hard they study. One highly intelligent friend of mine has been in full-time English language classes for three years (over 3000 hours) while living in an English speaking country, but is only comfortable with basic "How-are-you-my-name-is" type of conversations. He just has a block, and if he ever wants to give a deposition in Canada, he's going to have to do it through an interpreter.
He's not an asshole.


In the army, if your mos requires language training you take a Defense Language Aptitude Battery. The DLAB is designed to test ones affinity to learn languages. The scoring is done in a way that if you score low, it does not mean you are not apt to learn languages but rather that the more complex ones are out of your aptitude. similarly if you score high you are more able to learn complex languages such as chinese, arabic, or, in this case english.

english is a difficult language to learn fluently with its complex grammar rule systems. throw in local slang and colloquialisms and youve got a recipe for a difficult language to master.

my point being, your friend who has taken 3000 hours of english instruction and is still not comfortable with anything more than common greetings and such may have much more success and be more comfortable with a simpler language such as french or german

You met one guy once who was brilliant at languages, and somehow that proves... what?

Why are you so angry anyway? >> ^smooman:

>> ^messenger:
He is an American citizen, and not an English native speaker. No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never.
bull fucking shit. My interpreter in afghanistan who has never left the country spoke fluently 6 languages and when he spoke english with us, he spoke it like an american (slang, etc). There was literally nothing that we could say to him that he wouldnt understand or not be able to interpret. he learned pashtu from growing up, he learned dari, english, oordu, and arabic from school, he learned to be fluent in those languages from speaking with native speakers of those languages.

Wow. You really know nothing about languages. English is much easier than German, and about the same as French.>> ^smooman:
my point being, your friend who has taken 3000 hours of english instruction and is still not comfortable with anything more than common greetings and such may have much more success and be more comfortable with a simpler language such as french or german

>> ^messenger:

You met one guy once who was brilliant at languages, and somehow that proves... what?
Why are you so angry anyway? >> ^smooman:
>> ^messenger:
He is an American citizen, and not an English native speaker. No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never.
bull fucking shit. My interpreter in afghanistan who has never left the country spoke fluently 6 languages and when he spoke english with us, he spoke it like an american (slang, etc). There was literally nothing that we could say to him that he wouldnt understand or not be able to interpret. he learned pashtu from growing up, he learned dari, english, oordu, and arabic from school, he learned to be fluent in those languages from speaking with native speakers of those languages.



that was just my interpreter. almost all of our interpreters were that apt for language. I also knew two mexican immigrants who joined the army to gain citizenship that were in my squad who didnt speak a word of english when they joined. 2 years later they were fluent. and what it proves is that your stance that one could never achieve native speaker level is bullshit.

furthermore in what way is my annecdote different from yours? (what, so you know one guy who has taken 3000 hours of english and just cant learn it so therefor almost every immigrant must find speaking english "natively" impossible?)


PS: im always angry =(

>> ^messenger:

Wow. You really know nothing about languages. English is much easier than German, and about the same as French.>> ^smooman:
my point being, your friend who has taken 3000 hours of english instruction and is still not comfortable with anything more than common greetings and such may have much more success and be more comfortable with a simpler language such as french or german



ni shi da bian =P

If I lived in Korea for any length of time and were given citizenship, I would consider myself Korean by virtue of my citizenship, and if I were giving a deposition to my government there, I would do it in English and bring an interpreter. It wouldn't require any gall to do so because it's not insulting to anyone who doesn't hate foreigners.

Now if I did it in English without an interpreter, that would show some gall.>> ^Pprt:

I'll throw in the same argument as above: if you have lived in Korea for 25 years and failed to learn the language, would you consider yourself Korean? Would you have the gall to go before a government body and provide testimony that you expect more be done for "your people" in English or French?

@smooman
Your anecdotes show that some people can learn the language to near native speaker level, and you seem to infer from that that everyone should be able to (otherwise, why mention it?). You're also indirectly suggesting that the guy in this vid has some obligation to be that good (otherwise why mention it?). I disagree on both points.

My anecdote shows that some people really can't learn the language, and infers that this guy may be one of them.

Also, being able to hold up a fluent conversation is not the same as displaying language mastery. My Mexican students in particular speak fluently, but are mostly unconcerned with accuracy as long as their point is conveyed. In a deposition, there's no way to ensure that your point is conveyed because it's not a conversation. So, bring an interpreter.

>> ^Pprt:

The man is a Mestizo because Hispanics looks like this: http://videosift.com/video/Carving-the-Mountains

Hispanics don't look like anything in particular. Anyone who lives in a country that was once conquered by Spain is considered Hispanic; it's a term of culture and language, not race. That being said, this guy is definitely Hispanic but he may or may not be Mestizo.

I thought maybe you knew something I didn't but apparently I had it backwards.

On the subject, though, why hasn't Texas got an English name? It's been a state since 1845. You're telling me nobody could come up with an English name in 165 years?

@messenger

Any sincere person who wants to learn a language is able to give a prepared statement in that language after living there for decades. Don't waste people's time, and set a good example. Answering questions following the statement can be done in the native tongue if preferred.

If you're going to be importing workers from other societies, it's in your and their best interest that you import them from societies that will have little problem learning your language.

For example, import people from any Asian society that's much poorer than the comparatively wealthy Latin America, and which has a language from which it's far more difficult to learn English than when learning from Spanish or Portuguese, and they'll do comparatively well.

Not to take either side necessarily, but the translations spoken here were not all accurate. The last remark in particular mentioned Arizona's anti-immigrant legislation and suggested Texas should be different from Arizona. But the interpreter translated this only as 'Texas can do better' with no mention of Arizona at all. I'm left guessing he felt it wise to avoid inflaming the xenophobic old white guy who might very well support Arizona's law. That's not honest. And dishonest translations are like jet fuel for racism-based bigotry.

I did feel a tad bad about my first response, but this is one of those issues where there is simply no gray area (or if you live in Britain, grey area).

Without common borders, language and culture, (and common sense) there is no nation, period.

It shouldn't have to be explained why plundering invaders are bad for any nation's survival, even to liberals.

The only thing I'm 'sick' of is being RIGHT 98% of the time!

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^quantumushroom:
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Tribalism is a mental disorder. You're at least as sick as anyone else on this site.

So... I can't help but think this whole scenario is BS.

1) That senator is a dick. Speaking in Spanish isn't offensive. That was the dumbest thing he could have possibly said.

2) Let's say I lived in France for 23 years. I'm pretty sure I'd be a rockstar at speaking French after that long. If I wasn't, I'd be pretty embarrassed with myself. I'd especially be a rockstar at giving a prepared statement, since I could practice ahead of time. So, if I were to give a statement in English, instead of French, it would likely be for other reasons than my personal comfort level. (Or I could be a smacktard... there's always that possibility.)

>> ^messenger:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/smooman" title="member since October 28th, 2008" class="profilelink">smooman
Your anecdotes show that some people can learn the language to near native speaker level, and you seem to infer from that that everyone should be able to (otherwise, why mention it?). You're also indirectly suggesting that the guy in this vid has some obligation to be that good (otherwise why mention it?). I disagree on both points.
My anecdote shows that some people really can't learn the language, and infers that this guy may be one of them.
Also, being able to hold up a fluent conversation is not the same as displaying language mastery. My Mexican students in particular speak fluently, but are mostly unconcerned with accuracy as long as their point is conveyed. In a deposition, there's no way to ensure that your point is conveyed because it's not a conversation. So, bring an interpreter.


*sigh* i mentioned it as an exception to your rule: "No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never." thus disproving the rule.

you are suggesting that he has some obligation to me. I couldnt care less that this particular man cannot or will not speak the de facto language of the nation he's been a citizen of for over two decades. I think its telling quite a bit about any person who could live in a foreign nation for over 20 damn years and not pick up the language but beyond that, i really dont care what language they speak

Parochial nitwits .. the lot you!

>> ^quantumushroom:

It shouldn't have to be explained why plundering invaders are bad for any nation's survival, even to liberals.
The only thing I'm 'sick' of is being RIGHT 98% of the time!

This guy is a citizen and you're calling him a plundering invader. You are quite sick, but most certainly not of "being right 98% of the time".

Texas is a Native-American word for "friend." The senator clearly doesn't know his demography.

Where to start?

Well, speaking English isn't setting a good example. Also, he's nobody's father nor mentor, nor leader. He's a representative. You're the one who has decided it's bad for him to speak Spanish. I disagree.

Next, you seem to think this guy is into human trafficking or something, "importing" labour from other countries at random. He's not. He's just a guy who has decided (possibly on a volunteer basis) to help out the people in his own immigrant community who need support from government. He doesn't choose which country to "import" people from. He just represents whoever's there.>> ^chilaxe:

set a good example

...

importing workers from other societies

[edited]

It's not a rule. It's him. That on guy. If he (that on guy) is still that weak in English after he (that one guy) has spent 25 odd years in America, he (that one guy) will never be a native speaker.

You say you don't care, but then you fly in full of piss and vinegar and "fucking bullshit" and "...cannot or will not speak ... it's telling.... 20 damn years..." and so on. It's no impartial. You clearly feel strongly that he should speak English, that he was wrong to speak Spanish. I disagree. I think it was fine. He has no duty nor obligation, legal nor social to speak anything but the language of his choice.

@smooman said:
> > *sigh* i mentioned it as an exception to your rule: "No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never." thus disproving the rule.

you are suggesting that he has some obligation to me. I couldnt care less that this particular man cannot or will not speak the de facto language of the nation he's been a citizen of for over two decades. I think its telling quite a bit about any person who could live in a foreign nation for over 20 damn years and not pick up the language but beyond that, i really dont care what language they speak

So Canada isn't a nation because not everyone speaks the same language? Switzerland isn't a nation? India? Spain? China? Singapore? Hong Kong?

What do you think will happen to a nation if it allows speakers of other languages to give depositions in that language? How does that eliminate the nation?>> ^quantumushroom:
Without common borders, language and culture, (and common sense) there is no nation, period.

^messenger:

It's not a rule. It's him. That on guy. If he (that on guy) is still that weak in English after he (that one guy) has spent 25 odd years in America, he (that one guy) will never be a native speaker.
You say you don't care, but then you fly in full of piss and vinegar and "fucking bullshit" and "...cannot or will not speak ... it's telling.... 20 damn years..." and so on. It's no impartial. You clearly feel strongly that he should speak English, that he was wrong to speak Spanish. I disagree. I think it was fine. He has no duty nor obligation, legal nor social to speak anything but the language of his choice.
@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/smooman" title="member since October 28th, 2008" class="profilelink">smooman said:
> > sigh i mentioned it as an exception to your rule: "No matter how long he spends in the country (with no official language), he will never achieve native speaker level. Never." thus disproving the rule.
you are suggesting that he has some obligation to me. I couldnt care less that this particular man cannot or will not speak the de facto language of the nation he's been a citizen of for over two decades. I think its telling quite a bit about any person who could live in a foreign nation for over 20 damn years and not pick up the language but beyond that, i really dont care what language they speak



meh, i took "he" as the infinitive plural i guess. however at best all you could do is speculate that he cannot speak the language no matter what (any absolute statement such as yours is a bold one)

in either case, my overall angst is this: anyone who spends over 2 decades in a foreign nation and still cannot speak the language tells me one of three things:

1) that he has, in over 20 years, never left a community that speaks only his language and has thus had zero interaction with anyone outside the community.

2) that he really doesnt care to learn the language

3) or he is one in the probably tens of thousands that has some sort of innate inability to learn a foreign language

i find 1 and 2 to be far more probable, so much so, that number 3 is all but dismissed. furthermore i find number 1 to be quite rare in itself (itd have to be a small, entirely self sufficient community of which very few exist and would mostly be found in the desert and mountain regions)

therefor option 2 becomes the most likely explanation by orders of magnitude



NOW HAVING SAID THAT, after my second viewing of the video, it is my speculation that this particular man does, in fact, speak english, and probably quite well. It is also my speculation that he is choosing spanish primarily so those who he is representing can understand what he is saying, although i suspect it would be more effective the other way around: if he spoke english to the board or whatever and his interpreter translated what he and the board were saying to the non english speakers. As far as i could tell the interpreter was only translating what the rep was saying, he didnt translate anything anyone else was saying so its kind of like listening to one persons phone conversation; you know what one person is saying but cant understand anything the other is

Why does anyone would have any angst at all? So what if he doesn't care to learn the language? He's an American citizen, and can do as he pleases. There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to suggest that he should speak English. He could be a tenth generation American, and a native speaker of English, and he could choose to give his testimony in broken high school Spanish. That's his prerogative.>> ^smooman:

in either case, my overall angst is this: anyone who spends over 2 decades in a foreign nation and still cannot speak the language tells me one of three things:

1) that he has, in over 20 years, never left a community that speaks only his language and has thus had zero interaction with anyone outside the community.

2) that he really doesnt care to learn the language

3) or he is one in the probably tens of thousands that has some sort of innate inability to learn a foreign language

i find 1 and 2 to be far more probable, so much so, that number 3 is all but dismissed. furthermore i find number 1 to be quite rare in itself (itd have to be a small, entirely self sufficient community of which very few exist and would mostly be found in the desert and mountain regions)

therefor option 2 becomes the most likely explanation by orders of magnitude
I've been a teacher of English as a second language for seven years, and from this clip, I'd say he's probably proficient, but he's not native.
>> ^smooman:

NOW HAVING SAID THAT, after my second viewing of the video, it is my speculation that this particular man does, in fact, speak english, and probably quite well. It is also my speculation that he is choosing spanish primarily so those who he is representing can understand what he is saying, although i suspect it would be more effective the other way around: if he spoke english to the board or whatever and his interpreter translated what he and the board were saying to the non english speakers. As far as i could tell the interpreter was only translating what the rep was saying, he didnt translate anything anyone else was saying so its kind of like listening to one persons phone conversation; you know what one person is saying but cant understand anything the other is
Do you have any comment on the senator saying, "It's insulting to us"?

Right, why should we care whether or not society is functional and minimally intelligent?

People like you and the decay you cause (thank you for turning California from one of the best places in the world into the worst US state according to some metrics) are the reason it's rational for the smart fraction to be capitalists and let society sort out it's own endless self-caused problems.

You have more to lose from such an arrangement than the smart fraction does, and there are workarounds for them to minimize their personal costs from your dysfunctional society.
>> ^messenger:

Where to start?
Well, speaking English isn't setting a good example. Also, he's nobody's father nor mentor, nor leader. He's a representative. You're the one who has decided it's bad for him to speak Spanish. I disagree.
Next, you seem to think this guy is into human trafficking or something, "importing" labour from other countries at random. He's not. He's just a guy who has decided (possibly on a volunteer basis) to help out the people in his own immigrant community who need support from government. He doesn't choose which country to "import" people from. He just represents whoever's there.>>

>> ^smooman:

while i certainly dont think speaking the "unofficial" language of america should be a requirement for citizenship, it does say something about the individual who has lived in the states for two decades and still cannot speak english conversationally.
similarly it would be foolish of me to move to mexico (or any non english speaking country for that matter), live, work, and commute for 20 years and still not be able to speak enough spanish to have a conversation with a native
if you ask me, theyre both assholes


Возможно, он может говорить по-английски достаточно хорошо, но не очень хорошо и красноречиво достаточно, чтобы выступить перед сенаторами.

I'm insulted. You must speak English. If you don't, Videosift will simply cease to exist.

And you have the gall not to bring an interpreter!>> ^mxxcon:

>> ^smooman:
while i certainly dont think speaking the "unofficial" language of america should be a requirement for citizenship, it does say something about the individual who has lived in the states for two decades and still cannot speak english conversationally.
similarly it would be foolish of me to move to mexico (or any non english speaking country for that matter), live, work, and commute for 20 years and still not be able to speak enough spanish to have a conversation with a native
if you ask me, theyre both assholes

Возможно, он может говорить по-английски достаточно хорошо, но не очень хорошо и красноречиво достаточно, чтобы выступить перед сенаторами.

I don't equate everyone speaking one language with being functional (a smart capitalist like you can certainly think of several countries with more than one official language), nor do I equate intelligence with the ability to speak English.

I'm sorry you're so afraid of "people like me". I don't understand. Can you tell me how letting someone speak Spanish in a deposition is going to cause "decay"?>> ^chilaxe:

Right, why should we care whether or not society is functional and minimally intelligent?
People like you and the decay you cause (thank you for turning California from one of the best places in the world into the worst US state according to some metrics) are the reason it's rational for the smart fraction to be capitalists and let society sort out it's own endless self-caused problems.
You have more to lose from such an arrangement than the smart fraction does, and there are workarounds for them to minimize their personal costs from your dysfunctional society.

@messenger

One of the purposes of society is communication. Not having access to sophisticated culture because you don't speak the language needed for success is bad. (Doesn't it seem like being able to communicate with your boss would be useful? Why does that have to be pointed out?)

Many of humanity's capitals for intelligence, like Silicon Valley and Cambridge, Mass. speak English, and it's a professional disadvantage to not have good English skills.

Encouraging people to not assimilate into successful habits promotes decay because long-term low education levels, poverty, etc. are part of decay. Your self-caused decay doesn't personally affect me as much for the reasons stated in my previous comment, but I think it's good to want society to move closer to success rather than farther away.

I know this is the internet and all, but please take these as sincere questions, because I don't understand your point of view, and I'd like to:

We agree that knowing English is a massive professional advantage.

Do you think Anton (I think that's what he said his name was) has a moral obligation to America or society in general to speak English at all times? If that's not your opinion, how would you phrase it to include what he did at this deposition?

Or are you only disagreeing with my assertions that as an American, he ought to be able to speak any language he chooses? If so, do you think that government should make it as uncomfortable as possible for people to speak another language, and should government make life more difficult for uneducated and poor people as an incentive to change? Or how would you phrase it?

@messenger

1. Yes, if speaking English is the path toward success, reading a prepared statement in English after living here for 20 years is a prosocial obligation both toward the larger society and toward his own subculture. (That's assuming the good of anyone beyond ourselves matters at all.)

2a. Yes, any American can do whatever he wants, even if it's antisocial and anti-success, but if that's the case, the good of society probably no longer matters.

2b. Asking a 20 year resident to read his prepared statements in the language of success (he can do this) doesn't seem comparable to the things you described.

1. So you believe a person's decisions should never reflect their own preferences or comfort where they conflict with society's, even so slightly as reading a single prepared deposition in a different language with an interpreter? What if he believed that lack of inclusion of people from other cultures was a greater social problem in America --he represents a group of immigrant workers, so we can assume he strongly holds that belief-- and he was in a position to represent his own culture in a public place? Wouldn't that mean he's doing exactly the right thing based on his own opinions of what's important?

2a. Dealt with above.

2b. How would you phrase what you believe then?

I have no idea how government handouts suddenly entered this conversation, so I'll just ignore that. Prosperity comes through a combination of hard work and social services, in that order. I'm guessing you think greater prosperity = greater success. I don't agree that prosperity is the only measure of success. I think happiness = success and prosperity is almost always a factor in happiness. Having to reject your own culture publicly is not. Maybe that's where we're disagreeing.

I was referring to the 12 million illegal plundering invaders. This guy has a right to His Own Private Mexico but not on my dime or time.


>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^quantumushroom:
It shouldn't have to be explained why plundering invaders are bad for any nation's survival, even to liberals.
The only thing I'm 'sick' of is being RIGHT 98% of the time!
This guy is a citizen and you're calling him a plundering invader. You are quite sick, but most certainly not of "being right 98% of the time".

Multi-lingualism is another barrier to understanding and unity. E Plurius Unum. From Many, One.

What will happen to a nation is what's happening now. Government agencies must prints forms in multiple languages. Businesses have to spend money to make multi-lingual everything. And Senator Who-is-100%-Correct (and us) has to listen to everything twice.

Without common borders, language and culture, (and common sense) there is no nation, period.

Too bad there wasn't this fount of liberal wisdom back in the 1920s. Imagine! All those immigrants flowing into Ellis Island learning English as quickly as possible. What were they thinking?


>> ^messenger:

So Canada isn't a nation because not everyone speaks the same language? Switzerland isn't a nation? India? Spain? China? Singapore? Hong Kong?
What do you think will happen to a nation if it allows speakers of other languages to give depositions in that language? How does that eliminate the nation?>> ^quantumushroom:
Without common borders, language and culture, (and common sense) there is no nation, period.

>> ^quantumushroom:

I was referring to the 12 million illegal plundering invaders. This guy has a right to His Own Private Mexico but not on my dime or time.

>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^quantumushroom:
It shouldn't have to be explained why plundering invaders are bad for any nation's survival, even to liberals.
The only thing I'm 'sick' of is being RIGHT 98% of the time!
This guy is a citizen and you're calling him a plundering invader. You are quite sick, but most certainly not of "being right 98% of the time".



Why are you referring to them when they have nothing to do with this video? Try to stay on topic.

@messenger

@quantumushroom is right that previous immigrant groups learning the language and assimilating into the culture allowed for the creation of a coherent society in which cooperation and sacrifice for the common good was often reasonable.

Since liberals don't care about the good of society enough to do things like, in this case, ask immigrants to adopt even the tiniest of successful habits, preferring instead to create social decay like that which you created in California, I stand by my initial statement: it's rational for the smart fraction to be capitalists and let society sort out it's own endless self-caused problems.

>> ^messenger:

1. So you believe a person's decisions should never reflect their own preferences or comfort where they conflict with society's, even so slightly as reading a single prepared deposition in a different language with an interpreter? What if he believed that lack of inclusion of people from other cultures was a greater social problem in America --he represents a group of immigrant workers, so we can assume he strongly holds that belief-- and he was in a position to represent his own culture in a public place? Wouldn't that mean he's doing exactly the right thing based on his own opinions of what's important?
2a. Dealt with above.
2b. How would you phrase what you believe then?
I have no idea how government handouts suddenly entered this conversation, so I'll just ignore that. Prosperity comes through a combination of hard work and social services, in that order. I'm guessing you think greater prosperity = greater success. I don't agree that prosperity is the only measure of success. I think happiness = success and prosperity is almost always a factor in happiness. Having to reject your own culture publicly is not. Maybe that's where we're disagreeing.

Clearly, printing forms in two languages has not crippled the Canadian economy. Microsoft publishes their software in (guessing) a hundred different languages. Hasn't hurt them either. And the poor, poor senator who once or twice in his career (this clearly isn't a common occurrence in his presence) has to hear a short deposition twice. Really? That's all you've got that's going to destroy nations?

You didn't answer me about whether Switzerland is a nation, with its four official languages.>> ^quantumushroom:

Multi-lingualism is another barrier to understanding and unity. E Plurius Unum. From Many, One.
What will happen to a nation is what's happening now. Government agencies must prints forms in multiple languages. Businesses have to spend money to make multi-lingual everything. And Senator Who-is-100%-Correct (and us) has to listen to everything twice.
Without common borders, language and culture, (and common sense) there is no nation, period.
Too bad there wasn't this fount of liberal wisdom back in the 1920s. Imagine! All those immigrants flowing into Ellis Island learning English as quickly as possible. What were they thinking?

>> ^messenger:
So Canada isn't a nation because not everyone speaks the same language? Switzerland isn't a nation? India? Spain? China? Singapore? Hong Kong?
What do you think will happen to a nation if it allows speakers of other languages to give depositions in that language? How does that eliminate the nation?>> ^quantumushroom:
Without common borders, language and culture, (and common sense) there is no nation, period.

@chilaxe

Agreed with your summary statement of what qm said (dunno if it's a good summary, just I agree with your statement). What's that got to do with one guy who speaks English giving one deposition in Spanish?

False assertions flow steadily in the last part. Liberals do care about the good of society. They not only ask, but require immigrants to demonstrate lots of successful habits and traits. Liberals to not prefer to create decay. All that is your own bias against people you clearly don't understand, and by "understand", I mean, if you characterized their viewpoint to them, they would agree with it.

(edited)

@messenger

QM and I are arguing it was good that previous immigrant groups learned the language and assimilated into successful culture, but it seems like your argument is that it's fine for Americans to be divided up into multiple mutually incomprehensible linguistic/cultural groups, just as Switzerland and Canada are.

I was raised liberal and I was liberal until I began to study the human sciences, so I understand liberalism pretty well.



1. Liberalism doesn't prefer decay, but it does prefer the conditions that cause decay.

1a. I don't think anybody's arguing liberalism didn't cause California's decay. We have some of the highest taxes and most liberal policies in the country, but we're still bankrupt because liberalism advocates decay-causing conditions. For example, liberalism advocates endless immigration from less skilled societies, indeed, from the least-skilled tier of the less skilled societies, then encourages immigrants to not learn the language that leads to success.

1b. Once things begin to decay, liberalism then complains that employers aren't willing to pay more for jobs that we don't even need to be done. California doesn't automate jobs in e.g. agriculture that other societies automate because liberalism brought us enough unskilled labor to last for hundreds of years. Automation is getting better every year, but the skill-level of the population is going to stay at the same low level, so know that underemployment and poverty are probably going to steadily get worse, just as they've done since when California was one of the best places in the world.


This mess has nothing to do with the smart fraction, and they're right to excuse themselves from it.


Sources:
• Immigration decreases farm automation
• Immigrants' descendants on average show little improvement in educational attainment even after 4 generations.

@chilaxe
I wish I knew more about the situation in California so I could agree or disagree. The only things about California's problems that I've heard is that someone made horrible financial decisions based on a fortune teller's guidance, and that Enron bilked California out of billions of dollars, which contributed massively.

Anyway, from your comments and links here, I'm gathering that you don't see one guy making a deposition in Spanish as a problem as much as you see it as a symbol of everything you think is wrong about liberalism and the problems you perceive it to cause. Is that a fair statement?

(edited)

@messenger

1.
It was never possible for the Calfornia government to avoid becoming the least-skilled state in the country (#50 out of 50). Enron simply cost money, but our schools have always been well funded nonetheless --better funded than states that have better test scores than we do.

The reason for all this is that importing low-skill workers gives you a low-skill populace for the long-term. We might call it the "Call a Place Paradise and Kiss It Goodbye Effect," and someone thought California's decline was a good enough idea that it should be repeated on the national level, so you'll get a closer view of it yourself this century. However, you'll have to look for it yourself, because newspapers and academics aren't generally going to discuss it, probably for good reason (1, 2).

2. Yeah, your summary is a fair statement. I view the deposition in Spanish as the culture embracing anti-success habits.

@chilaxe

1. I'm not going to see it up close as I'm Canadian and live in another continent now anyway.

2. Cool. Agree to not agree for the time being. It's been pleasant locking horns with you.