"The key is to remember that the surveillance and the abuse doesn't occur when people look at the data. It occurs when people gather the data in the first place."

This is what we've been trying to get into people's heads for years and years in this country as part of our fight against data retention by telecoms. As soon as data is gathered in a machine-readable format, you have crossed the Rubicon. End of story.

Also, fuck my government for not offering asylum to brother Snowden.

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I'm annoyed at Snowden and the journalists. I want them to release everything in one big swath. Just everything, it's our information. Fuck the government and fuck being nice. They're bastards take them down.

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I'm conflicted about Snowden..on one hand I'm glad the abuses were revealed..on the other hand, I have a hard time believing that China and Russia didn't get copies of all the files, or that he just ended up in Russia. There is definitely something fishy underlying the story he is giving us.

I wish there were a better link; this daily motion link has ads every five minutes.

Does no one remember that he was flying somewhere else and got trapped in Russia because they found out and it was one of his stops? Also it makes sense to chose a place that wouldn't turn him over out of fear immediately.

As for the files I don't see why he wouldn't delete them after turning them over. If he wanted to give secrets to people he could sell them. Also we simply have no evidence that he gave them anything so condemning him would be wrong. What are we anyways, the US Government?

Yogi and radx make the only real point necessary here and that's that information, DIGITAL information especially, is floating about and cannot be contained exclusively, EVER. It 'IS'....You can't control the never-ending, ever-present flow of it BUT-

Certain people will use information for good, some for evil, some to control, some to enlighten and with a view to evolution and meaning, and LIFE.

Death to those who would that information be used for anything but what it is: The free-flow of bits and bites and the purest life-energy.

In the beginning, was the word.

Oh and for shinyblurry: We'll probably never know the 'need-to-know' factors involved in making a decision for ourselves about Snowden and you are correct in intuiting that there is something fishy with Snowden and with all of this. The righteous or, average folks on the planet simply DO NOT have the appropriate clearance to 'know.'

ANY president does not even have this clearance and this is why he wants Snowden back, to face a mock-trial under the mock government's 1918 Espionage act allegations and why the mock so-called journalists can continue to disseminate information that protects and promotes the machine. All are basically being blackmailed into serving this beast, which protects and insulates the most egregious and vile of humanity, so that they may be free and you may be not.

@Yogi

Releasing everything in one big pile didn't get us anywhere in case of the Afghan War Logs, the Iraqi War Logs or the Gitmo Files. Piece by piece keeps it front and center, at least over here in Europe. Not to mention the fact that it also nullifies all criticisms of careless dumping of sensitive info, which reduces his risk of lead poisoning.

@shinyblurry

He wouldn't be stuck in Russia if a) the US hadn't canceled his passport and b) the entirety of Europe wasn't such whipped dogs. If, for instance, Germany had offered him asylum, he'd probably be in Berlin right now, just like Laura Poitras, Sarah Harrison and Jacob Appelbaum.

And no, I don't think the Russians, the Chinese, or anyone for that matter, have gained access to his hardware before he handed everything over to Greenwald amongst others. Snowden knows what he's doing.

If, however, you don't think that crypto works, then I can't convince you otherwise.

@zor

The copyright owner, a German public broadcaster, made sure it's geofucked on YouTube. By the time I submitted this, DailyMotion was the only source available without a German proxy. That said, Adblock Edge + Ghostery + NoScript and you don't have to endure any ads on DailyMotion.

Yeah and I agree that's how to keep it in the news and be responsible with the information. I'm saying that I don't give a shit anymore, I'm tired and cranky and I want all the information dumped, like a nuclear fucking bomb. I want everyone in government to get scared enough of their population that they barricade themselves and lets have a decade of fucking War trying to lynch every one of those mother fuckers.

I'm sick of it, release all the spys names all over the world, all the troops positions. Fuck them, fuck everyone, let's finish this shit.

@Yogi FOR PRESIDENT!

You might be ahead of the curve on that one.

I agree that a bit (or a lot) of fear might force our representatives all over the world to realize that even the richest donor cannot provide you with a replacement for your head after it was chopped off by the mob. Hell, we might find out soon enough if the troika keeps choking the life out of Greece, Spain and Portugal.

Similarly, the damage being done by secrecy of all kinds, particularly to core elements of democracy (see: deep state), might very well outweigh potential damages caused by putting an end to it entirely.

But I'm not there yet. Iceland and, to some degree, Switzerland are showcases that shit can be turned on its head much quicker than anyone thought. Nationalising banks, jailing bankers, referendums about maximum wages and basic incomes... if the Swiss can openly discuss the "1:12" initiative, a disbandment -- or at least a complete restructuring -- of intelligence services is not as impossible as one might think.

I trust you American's who doubt Snowden's intentions remember your own war of independence, when "patriots" committed illegal acts to escape the tyranny of England?

That the tyrants are your own government now doesn't matter, people who fight that oppression are still patriots, not traitors...

Amen.

Releasing it in smaller packets not only makes those smaller packets easier to understand but it also defeats the "100 day rule", ie the time it takes for any news to be "not news" and every loses interest. If the whole thing was released at once, the whole thing would already be a small column in the page three.

Not even Greenwald wants that. There are genuine reasons for some information to be kept secret, both moral and practical.

On the moral side, everyone involved has said there is information in there that could lead directly to people being killed.

On the practical side, the second they do that and someone is killed, they instantly lose all credibility.

I don't give a shit if Joe Bloggs is a CIA agent undercover with Spectre. It's not relevant to me. I DO care that the NSA are spying on everyone. Snowden is doing the right thing.

This is my point I don't give a fuck what Greenwald or Snowden wants, I want a Nuclear Fucking Bomb. I want every little secret from every administration to come out and I want to plant a baseball bat into the side of every bastards head who has supported the evil that is done around the world.

You want to talk about morality? Not killing everyone involved in this is immoral.

Yeah, god forbid we approach this like rational adults.

Snowden should be in prison for life, if not shot. Sure, he did a good thing by revealing the spying on American citizens. That is true whistleblowing. Good on him.

But then he dwarfed that good act by giving away our (I am speaking as an American, here, obviously) secrets, in the form of the terabytes of data on those 4 laptops, to our biggest rivals, China and Russia. He has also revealed tons of national secrets and techniques to the whole world that have absolutely nothing to do with Americans' 4th Amendment rights. His acts have put American lives and American industry at risk and has definitely harmed American stature and American industry.

So, yeah, give him the Nobel prize and the Medal of Honor. He can admire them in his Supermax cell.

I cant salute Snowden as much as he deserves it. A true hero, but some people are still too stupid to see it, even when they get the facts into the face with a frying pan.
Einstein was right about stupidity.

Your namecalling says more about you than those with whom you disagree.

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And here I thought the claims around his four laptops were put to rest in July of last year or, at the very latest, after his meeting with Ray MacGovern, Jesselyn Radack and Thomas Drake in October.

There was nothing of substance on those laptops and to suggest otherwise with any credibility demands extraordinary proof.

Why?

Because of two primary reasons, as far as I am concerned:

- Any of Snowden's claims has yet to proven false. The entire apparatus is trying and they failed miserably so far. Probably because Snowden actually knows what he's talking about, unlike such cranks as Rep. Peter King.

- Snowden spent years working within the intelligence industry (CIA, NSA, private contractors) and he has proven to be careful and meticulous. Unlike the public (or the British MoD), he'd know better than to transport any sensitive information on a device like a laptop or a smartphone. Or an external harddrive. Or a disk. He'd use flash memory, possibly a thumb drive, probably an SD card -- the less embedded controllers a device has, the better. Heavily encrypted, of course, and if anyone doesn't believe that crypto works... tough luck, I'm done trying to convince people otherwise.

So, the only people who received data from him are Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. American journalists reporting on American issues, just like he said.

As for the the revelation of "tons of national secrets and techniques": he has revealed nothing. Let me say that again: Snowden has revealed nothing.

He has empowered members of the press, the fourth estate, to do their bloody jobs and fullfil their role as watchdog over the government, something they failed at miserably in this particular regard. All revelations happen at the discretion of those journalists who are now the sole proprietors of the Snowden-documents.

If, however, you don't subscribe to the notion of a free press as a line of defence against government abuse, then I can't change your mind.

By the way, "putting American lives at risk" should have received a trademark by now, the way it has been waved around to kill uncomfortable conversations. I vividly remember how desperate they were to find proof that the Afghan/Iraqi War Logs and the Gitmo Files were endangering lives. As far as I know, they never found any. And as far as I know, all releases based on Snowden-documents were carefully chosen and redacted where neccessary to protect the identity of human assets. All claims to the contrary need to provide evidence.

But I'm glad to see that the "American industry" has found its way into the argument. At least we don't have to pretend that this is solely about terrorism anymore. Industrial espionage, diplomatic advantages and... keeping your own population in check.

Yay! It's just like the old days.

Oh wait, I forgot. My country has been under full scale surveillance by the US, the British and the French since the late '40s, so it's actually business as usual.

People like you just dont want to hear the truth, and thats why you are trying to discredit everyone who says the truth. You just did it again on me.

What are you talking about? I acknowledge what he said was the truth. Doesn't make him a freaking saint, nor forgive his treasonous acts.

No, they were not put rest. To prove that the terabytes of data Snowden stole did not end up in the hand the Chinese and Russian intelligence agents is actually what requires the extraordinary proof.

Your two reasons seem really naive.
-So what he has told the truth so far? He has an ocean of stolen secrets, all of which are true to draw from. This guy who has lied and stolen and sold out his country is now some trustworthy figure? OK.

-Snowden has actually proved quite sloppy and stupid. He was an IT contractor, not some mastermind or strategist. That's why he indiscriminately grabbed all the data he could and scrammed to the two paragons of freedom and human rights: Russia and China. What a careful thinking genius Snowden is.

He could have allowed the press to do it's job without disclosing a much of what has been released.

Lastly, I wouldn't expect a non-american to care about the harm he's done to my country. Just try not to be so gleeful about it.

-

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually. "
-James Baldwin

“The difference between treason and patriotism is only a matter of dates.”
- Alexandre Dumas

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
- George Orwell

Snowden, like Manning before him, spoke truth to power. In a difficult situation, he saw something that was wrong and took the incredibly brave decision to do something about it, even at the cost of his life as he knew it.

If you found out something you knew to be immoral (and on a massive scale), would you have the bravery to follow his example? When it meant probably never seeing your friends and family again?

I suspect history will ultimately come to see him as more a patriot than a traitor.

Actually, the proof that something did not end up in the hands of the Chinese, the Russians, or myself for that matter, is quite difficult, given that evidence of absence is impossible to obtain. However, the absence of evidence to the claim that they have gained access to information through Snowden himself is reason enough for me.

You want proof that nothing was transfered to them? Might as well try to prove the non-existance of the famous tea pot in orbit.

So the basic argument boils down to motivation as well as credibility of claims.

His motivation to keep access to his material restricted to the selected group of journalists is apparent from his own interviews. They are supposed to be the check on the government, they lack the information to fullfil the role, they need access to correct (what he perceived to be) a wrong, namely a grave breach of your consitution on a previously unheard of scale.
Providing access to Russia or China would instantly negate all hope of ever not drawing the short straw in this mess, as the US is the only country on the planet who can provide him with amnesty and therefore safety.

So why would he do it? For a shot at asylum? You know as well as I do that (permanent) asylum in China/Russia is worthless if the US is after you. Europe could guarantee one's safety, but given the lack of sovereignty vis-a-vis the US, it would not be an option.

That leaves credibility of claims. And that's where my first reason comes into play, the one you put down as "naive". His opponents, those in positions of power, be it inside government or the press, have a track record of being... let's not mince words here, lying sacks of shit. James Clapper's act of perjury on front of Congress is just the most prominent manifestation of it. The entire bunch lied their asses off during the preparation of the invasion of Iraq, they lied their asses off during the revelations triggered by Chelsea Manning and they lied their asses off about the total und unrelenting surveillance of American citizens in violation of their constitutional rights.

If you think supervision of the NSA by the Select Committee on Intelligence is actually working, I suggest you take a look at statements by Senator Wyden. The NSA even plays them for fools. Hell, Bruce Schneier was recently approached by members of Congress to explain to them what the NSA was doing, because the NSA refused to. Great oversight, works like a charm. By the way, it's the same fucking deal with GCHQ and the BND.

So yes, the fella who "stole" data is actually a trustworthy figure, because a) his claims were true and b) his actions pulled off the veil that covered the fact that 320 million Americans had their private data stolen and were sold out by agencies of their own government in conjunction with private intelligence contractors.

What else...

Ah, yeah. "Sloppy" and "stupid". Again, if he was sloppy and stupid, what does that say about the internal control structure of the intelligence industry? They didn't notice shit, they still claim to be unaware of what precisely he took with him. Great security, fellas.

"He could have allowed the press to do it's job without disclosing a much of what has been released."

He disclosed nothing. He is not an experienced journalist and therefore, by his own admission, not qualified to make the call what to publish and how. That's why he handed it over to Barton Gellman at the WaPo, Glenn Greenwald at the Guardian and Laura Poitras, who worked closely with Der Spiegel.

If Spiegel, WaPo and Guardian are not reputable institutions of journalism, none are. So he did precisely what you claim he should have done: he allowed the press to do its bloody job and released fuck all himself.

As for the cheap shot at not being an American: seventy years ago, your folks liberated us from the plague of fascism, brought us freedom. Am I supposed to just sit here and watch my brothers and sisters in the US become the subjects of total surveillance, the kind my country suffered from during two dictatorships in the last century?

Ironically, that would be un-American, at least the way I understand it.

And there's nothing gleeful about my concerns. I am deeply furious about this shit and even more so about the apathy of people all around the world. You think I want Americans to suffer from the same shit we went through as a petty form of payback?

Fuck that. It's the intelligence industry that I'm gunning for. Your nationality doesn't mean squat, some intelligence agency has its crosshairs on you wherever you live. It just happens to be an American citizen who had the balls to provide us with the info to finally try and protect citizens in all countries from the overreaching abuse by the intelligence industry.

In fact, I'd rather worry about our own massive problems within Europe (rise of fascism in Greece, 60% youth unemployment, unelected governments, etc). So can we please just dismantle all these spy agencies and get on with our lives?

Sorry if this is incoherent, but it's late and I'm even more pissed off than usual.