I like explanations in british voices.

If only he talked a lot faster, he could review games!

Excellent analysis!

Adam and Eve really tell the story of a creature gaining awareness and sentience. It is the answer to - why are we not like the animals?

It says: We were. We were innocent, naked, not knowing morality, the law of the jungle. We miss that innocence - it was paradise. We were in harmony with nature. We gained knowledge (ate the fruit) other animals did not.

But why do we wear clothes? Well the real reason is that we get jealous an competitive about our mates. We need clothes and a sense of morals to avoid the conflict of being naked and stimulated by anyone else's mate.

The whole good / evil / serpent / die if you don't obey me. Well that reinforces the personal power of the religious leader so it's a nice fit in the story. But Eve deceived Adam right? Women are bad? Well that reinforces the prejudice of the religious leader telling the story. Also in a primative society. If your Mate is promiscuous - it's much easier to blame the weaker female to avoid conflict rather than have to fight with the male.

It is much simpler explained as a oral narrative passed along by ancient cultures at the dawn of pre-agricultural human civilizations. Read some Daniel Quinn to understand why Adam and Eve is really an oral tradition much like Christmas is a pagan ritual. It's a story told by non-Judeo peoples as a warning against these religious conquerers and the story eventually gets swallowed up by the virally propagating agricultural Judeo civilization. Adam and Eve story makes zero sense in the context of JudeoChristian scriptures. It is actually a warning to avoid these people who introduce ideas like clothing and that they have eaten from the tree of knowledge.

>> ^joedirt:
It is actually a warning to avoid these people who introduce ideas like clothing and that they have eaten from the tree of knowledge.

The story of Adam and Eve sounds to me more like an idiot's attempt at rationalizing year-round clothes wearing. Or more precisely, a rationalization of the shamefulness one feels when not wearing clothes in a society that wear clothes year-round. Clothes were at first a purely functional item whose meaning has been perverted by centuries of ignorance and unscientific thinking. And the same mechanism perverted the meaning of being naked, from simply "being naked" to "being sexual", because in a society where you wear clothes year-round for no apparent reason, the only time you're naked is when you fuck (or at least when you're being "intimate"). The Ancient Greeks, at least for the men, reversed the trend for a while until the desert monotheisms brought us back to the last ice age in terms of morality.

where did God say they would die THE DAY they ate the fruit?

This and other stories is why I do not take the bible literally. Do I believe in a god still? Well yes, I have a hard time letting that go. To me life would be too depressing if there was not one. To me without a god life becomes meaningless. So for my own sake I hope atheists are wrong but I also hope Christians are wrong and, that god is more like a father figure who forgives even the worse of us or that sin was made up to keep people in line. I also tend to believe that life is a lesson that we must learn to move on.

>> ^White:
where did God say they would die THE DAY they ate the fruit?


Genesis 2
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That was an interesting analysis of a story I've heard since my childhood.

Very well put together. My only problem with it? It never happened; so you're essentially psychoanalyzing a fairy tale.

Unless of course, snakes lost the ability of speech...in what do they say? 6000 years.

How does it matter where it came from? It's crap. And it only gets worse the more you assume that it's true.

ctrlaltbleach,

I can understand how you could come to the conclusion that without a god, life would become meaningless. For in the end, we are but a tiny spec in the vast wasteland that is the universe, and in the long run our impact on the grand scheme of things will most likely be very close to negligible.

However, while looking very far into the future paints a bleak picture, looking towards the near term you can find meaning everywhere. From making the world a better place for our friends, family, and future generations. You can find meaning by doing what you feel will improve this world that you live in now, instead of finding meaning that has to do with the next world (if there is an after-life).

Also, being an atheist doesn't mean that you can't have hope that there is an afterlife and a god, anymore than the belief that you won't win the lottery doesn't prevent you from hoping that you will.

This is perhaps one of the strongest arguments against the validity, veracity, authority, etc. of the bible:

Since God tested Adam before Adam had the knowledge of good and evil, ie the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, then by definition it was unjust for God to punish Adam, because Adam didn't know that disobediance was "wrong", Adam didn't even know what "wrong" was.

And then there's the bit about how god must have known this would happen before he even created man because he's like, God, you know and not only that but this whole disobediance thing happened once before with another of his creation, lucifer, and his angelic rebellion which god must have forseen before he created the angels because he's like, God, you know and didn't he learn anything from the first time around and and and...

man the guys who originally wrote this stuff down really portrayed god not only as a big meany but also not very smart.

Heres another one that always gets me. Somewhere in the bible it says god created man in his image. This statement to me means we are as capable as he is as a living being. Obviously were not perfect beings which then equals to god not being a perfect being.

Um, question. Where does it say that Adam didn't know right from wrong, they are only commanded not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad? that doesn't even imply that they didn't know right from wrong. Even if they didn't, all it means is that they had a choice to follow god's rulership or not...

what injustice are you talking about?

he's god,he can do whatever the fuck he wants...like a sociopath or bully or some shit...

"I am the Alpha and the Omega bitches" -GOD

>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
To me life would be too depressing if there was not one. To me without a god life becomes meaningless.


Why? To me, I'd much rather be in a universe where I am an evolved creature capable of pondering its own existence. In a way, we humans are the universe understanding itself. its such a beautiful concept to me. Beats being at the mercy of some invisible mysterious puppetmaster's plan of some kind

More importantly, the fact that you feel this way is no argument for it being true. The universe does not owe you meaning or purpose, How does your bad feelings about a godless universe make God more LIKELY to exist?

I really cant stand seeing children getting their limbs ripped off by bombs, that doesnt really change anything in Gaza, does it?

I never said that it proved he existed. There is no proof that he does. Its depressing to me however to believe that some people were born to live a miserable life just to die and show nothing for it. Some people don't even make it past childhood thats not fair and its very disheartening. And what about people who are enslaved and tortured their whole lives by cruel masters? I cant stand to believe that it was all for nothing. I think my main reason for believing there is a god is that my mind cannot cope with the thought of their being nothing when I die. That all my thoughts all my dreams and all my memories will just fade away. Sorry I can go on and on its just inconceivable to me. LOL

>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
Its depressing to me however to believe that some people were born to live a miserable life just to die and show nothing for it. Some people don't even make it past childhood thats not fair and its very disheartening. And what about people who are enslaved and tortured their whole lives by cruel masters?

Isn't it more depressing to believe in a God who would sit around and let that shit happen?

I think my main reason for believing there is a god is that my mind cannot cope with the thought of their being nothing when I die.

What was it like before you were born? It wasn't that bad was it? I wouldn't mind going back to that state when I die. Also, living in heaven for eternity would suck. You'd get bored after a few million years and the rest of eternity would be fucking hell.

Also, anyone read what Nietzsche had to say about the death of God, Nihilism, and the Ubermensch?

I like the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful god. It means that when he created me that he already knew exactly what I would do and think throughout the entire course of my life.

In essence, the omnipotence of god reinforces my comfort with my own atheism. "He" knew that I would seek information that was supported by evidence rather than by anecdotes, and also that I would spread my observations to others, yet he chose to create me anyway.

I guess that means my lack of belief in religion is, by default, "God's will."

Yes thats exactly how I picture it Psychologic.

allegory -- useful and even enlightening until people get it in their heads that their interpretation is the only one. I wish I was clever enough to recognize more!

ctrlaltbleach: I can understand the way you feel, but I don't think that has any place in a proper discussion about religion, or at least it is a poor argument. The world we live in has nothing to do with what we consider to be "fair" and people do suffer.

I like the idea that the world is what it is because of what is in it.

I think the alternative, that there is an all-knowing and all-powerful God watching over us is much more depressing, because if he indeed were there, then he is allowing unfairness and suffering to happen. If he is all-powerful he could end it just fine, but he never ever has, so in essence he would immoral and cruel.

I sorry to offend you now, because I probably do, but I think the "it must be true, because otherwise I can't bear it" is the coward's answer. Things are not true because we want them to be. Just because many people want them to be, that doesn't make them true (or false) either. I would rather live in this life than to gamble on a possible afterlife - what if it's not there? You would essentially have wasted your life.

^ I don't know that I would call Bleach's belief in God "cowardice". I would call it "unsupported" and I think he would agree with that, but when you start talking about our understanding of modern psychology (which is a large part of beliefs like this) then terms like "coward" are far too simplistic in their meaning.

Being comfortable in secular beliefs is far more complicated than understanding the logic behind it. Comfort and "existential meaning" are as much biological as they are psychological. We are hardwired to be very uncomfortable with the idea of no longer existing, and overcoming that takes a very long time for many. Bleach doesn't seem to believe anything that is contradicted by science, so I have a hard time condemning his reluctance to let go of the idea of an afterlife.

He didn't say God exists, he said that he's having trouble letting go of his personal belief, and I think that is something that a lot of people go through (I certainly did).

Either God does things like the girl born without a face or natural biological processes do it.

Whichever one it is, it doesn't really matter. The solution is for humans to sooth these intrinsic injustices with technological advancement.

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, February 2nd, 2009 11:30am PST - promote requested by EDD.

"I'm afraid of [foo], therefore [bar] must be true" is not an intellectually sound position and I would call it cowardice. Believing because you're afraid of the alternative is is just being a coward.

I'll totally give you that people have trouble giving up personal beliefs, but mostly these beliefs have never been really challenged be the person (that's why they call it faith) and when they start doing that, the belief must stand on its own or fall. Some people just go "no, it stands" in spite of the evidence, which is just idiocy, stubbornness and/or regret.


>> ^Psychologic:
^ I don't know that I would call Bleach's belief in God "cowardice". I would call it "unsupported" and I think he would agree with that, but when you start talking about our understanding of modern psychology (which is a large part of beliefs like this) then terms like "coward" are far too simplistic in their meaning.
Being comfortable in secular beliefs is far more complicated than understanding the logic behind it. Comfort and "existential meaning" are as much biological as they are psychological. We are hardwired to be very uncomfortable with the idea of no longer existing, and overcoming that takes a very long time for many. Bleach doesn't seem to believe anything that is contradicted by science, so I have a hard time condemning his reluctance to let go of the idea of an afterlife.
He didn't say God exists, he said that he's having trouble letting go of his personal belief, and I think that is something that a lot of people go through (I certainly did).

This video clearly shows that taking the early chapters of Genesis as a straightforward account is deeply flawed.

But where both most atheists and Fundamentalist Christians go wrong is that the passage is very clearly not intended to be read that way. Part of the reason this is obscured in the modern consciousness are the translation choices made. "Adam" and "Eve" are just transliterations from the original Hebrew. If the names were actually translated, we would be reading about Man and Life.

Another part of the reason is that we moderns tend to be unused to the mythical mode of expression and thought. Just as Hades' kidnapping Persephone was intended by the Greeks to be symbolic and allegorical of the changing of the seasons--and of deeper truths revealed in the Eleusinian Mysteries--and not a literal truth, so too is Genesis intended other than as an account of factual events.