I need to go buy some of their dvds

Awesome I can't believe so many idiots buy this stuff.

Here's a sad indictment of the UK's NHS;

http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/Our+hospitals/Royal+London+Homoeopathic+Hospital.htm

Count my mom in the group that buys homeopathic crapz. She swears by it and takes it for things like headaches and car sickness. {shakes head}

>> ^JiggaJonson:
Count my mom in the group that buys homeopathic crapz. She swears by it and takes it for things like headaches and car sickness. {shakes head}


No, you've got to {shake your head, dilute it, shake head again, dilute some more, and then more shaking} or it will never work!

belief in an individual 'vital force' brought us real things like acupuncture... looks like this science branched off into the not so neat category.

wierd i pretty much equated homeopathic with "natural" remedies (you know, things that work... even if we dont know or care why... like various unnamed plants...*cough cough*)... clearly that was not correct.

^
Homeopathy is the main thing they are destroying here, but there are a lot of other modalities mixed in. Plenty of nonsense to make fun of.

Technically, homeopathy is not a branch of "vital force" beliefs (I'm not sure if that's what you were saying), it was independently cooked up on the basis of a few scanty observations by this German guy Hahnemann in the early 1800's (it's been around for so long: that's how you know it works!).

And I have to call you on "real things like acupuncture". Acupuncture is in the same category as Homeopathy for me. Just like most bullshit treatments, it can only treat subjective symptoms: pain, stress, "a vague sense of unease, a touch of the nerves, or more money than sense" and doesn't work at all on REAL diseases.

So how many people here also listen to the "Skeptic's Guide to the Universe" podcast?
This is where I found the video. Well, on their forums.

Vairetube: acupuncture isn't real. That is, it doesn't do what acupuncturists say it does. It consistently performs no better than placebos or sham acupuncture in controlled trials, and can only relieve pain in cases where any kind of attention-diverting sensation (such as rubbing the affected area or administering electric shocks) would have the same effect. It's baloney too, even if you take the life-energy qi bullshit out of the equation.

home run

naw ... whatever they "think" is making acupunture work.. there is science behind manipulating the nervous system and pressure points and shit.. they just didn't have it when they started stickin needles in people... so... ill disagree there. so do you, i think.

"[acupuncture] can only relieve pain in cases where any kind of attention-diverting sensation (such as rubbing the affected area or administering electric shocks) would have the same effect"...

ok so? so it works but .. what is your point again? thats what im saying. it works.

some things dont work. like heaven and stuff. but needles in the skin actually do DO something... even though the system came from a belief that had no science to explain it....just observational reality. however they got there.. they got there. lucky acupuncturists.

dont make me puncture u. where the fuck did i say it cured any disease?? cmon now get real.

Acupuncture works with pain, sure.... it's as effective as rubbing your skin where it hurts. If you wanna pay someone to waste a couple hours and gas and stick needles in you to get no more effect than you could by rubbing your skin, be my guest.

Doctors know how pain works and they know that acupuncture does nothing except fill the nerve pathways with a sensation other than pain. Rubbing your skin does the same. As Flowers said, it's distraction.
They've done trials where they poke the subject with sticks (but don't break skin) to make them feel like they've been acupunctured. The effect is the same as traditional acupuncture.
Or they poke needles in random places that don't match the pressure points or qi-flow or whatever. The effect is the same. The patient "feels better".
I'll bet having your mum kiss your boo-boo would do just as well.

If a placebo of any kind (acupuncture, aquamarine crystals, kissing it better) works, then well.. it works, right? Maybe spending ridiculous money is part of the placebo effect for people that believe in it.

Although there should probably be a law requiring big "THIS STUFF DOES NOTHING" stickers on all these products.

Why don't you even bother to research anything yourself Henn

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/nccaminfo.html


I am lucky enough to have a mom who can indeed kiss and make it better. It changes something in my brain chemistry to talk to her. What's your point again? You're stupid?

It's obvious you're niether a medical professional nor have ever had acupuncture. So keep trying to make sense by agreeing that it works but not to your satisfaction... how would YOU know?

This sounds pretty plausible to me, rather than the rantings of some random idiot.

It's not based on smoke and mirrors, and spirits and "humours"... but results.. and results are results. Everyone's body is different, and we dont even fully know how it all works yet. I'm not going to get acupuncture but i'm not going to rule it out because you're being a spaz.

----------------------------------


Several processes have been proposed to explain acupuncture's effects, primarily those on pain. Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system (the brain and spinal cord) to release chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain. These chemicals either change the experience of pain or release other chemicals, such as hormones, that influence the body's self-regulating systems. The biochemical changes may stimulate the body's natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being.13 There are three main mechanisms:




Conduction of electromagnetic signals: Western scientists have found evidence that acupuncture points an strategic conductors of electromagnetic signals. Stimulating points along these pathways through acupuncture enables electromagnetic signals to be relayed at it greater rate than under normal conditions. These signals may start the flow of pain-killing biochemicals such as endorphins and of immune system cells to specific sites that are injured or vulnerable to disease.14,15


Activation of opioid systems: research has found that several types of opioids may be released into the central nervous system during acupuncture treatment, thereby reducing pain.16


Changes in brain chemistry sensation, and Involuntary body functions: studies have shown that acupuncture may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones in a good way. Acupuncture also has been documented to affect the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes whereby a person's blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature are regulated.3,17,18
---


It sounds to me like a very refined method of manipulating bio chemistry. I suppose you think meditation and exercise are useless as well. Stay in school.

Harry and I said pretty much the same thing... he gets an upvote while I get snubbed and called an idiot? I'm saying it has an effect: it's pure placebo, but that's an effect.
The point is... what stimulus (from rubbing to needles to mommy-kisses) DOESN'T change your brain chemistry?

I'm more than convinced Pressure Points exist, im more than convinced our body contains chemicals that can induce altered states, and im more than convinced there is more than one way to release or manipulate those chemicals.

The only point is acupuncture deals with real, identifiable phenomenon in the body and not strictly ceremony or placebo. It does not appear to be strictly placebo, its an ancient practice that holds water, the same way maggots can clean a wound ...or leeches do whatever the hell they do, even in modern day medicine.

I really have no comment on the actual homeopathy presented here outside of i dont think its very neat.

vaire, what convinced you, exactly? The countless studies that show acupuncture to be nothing more than a placebo? Or the total lack of evidence for any of the systems that acupuncturists claim to exploit?

>> ^vairetube:
I'm more than convinced Pressure Points exist, im more than convinced our body contains chemicals that can induce altered states, and im more than convinced there is more than one way to release or manipulate those chemicals.
The only point is acupuncture deals with real, identifiable phenomenon in the body and not strictly ceremony or placebo. It does not appear to be strictly placebo, its an ancient practice that holds water, the same way maggots can clean a wound ...or leeches do whatever the hell they do, even in modern day medicine.
I really have no comment on the actual homeopathy presented here outside of i dont think its very neat.

COOL! I believe in unicorns and if they touch you with their magical horn you will be healed from whatever ails you.

Herbal remedies clearly are not going to bring a dying man from a car accident back to perfect health, but they do work for a great many other 'non-life threatening' ailments.

>> ^Xaielao:
Herbal remedies clearly are not going to bring a dying man from a car accident back to perfect health, but they do work for a great many other 'non-life threatening' ailments.


Homeopathy has nothing to do with herbal remedies. Homeopathy is a complete and utter fraud on every level.

As far as "herbs" go, sure there are some that work. Marijuana, for example. But these so called natural remedies are not inherently better than man made ones.

Homeopathy is all bullshit. That's not really anything you can argue. It's very clearly bullshit. Same with cleansing auras, crystals and horoscopes.

Acupuncture, pressure points and other actual "massaging" things do exist to some degree, what their actual effect is, is still hotly debated (as we can see above). I'm not convinced that it is entirely placebo. In fact I would think that there is a beneficial effect to that, but them I'm not an expert so I don't know the finer details.

Also *promote

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I don't think it's all bullshit. I think a lot of it probably works.

That "Ice Man" they found in Swiss country many years ago had tattoos on the pressure points well known to accupuncturists. He had herbs in his belly that were very useful for a common sickness (something to do with worms, I think).

Are there hucksters in homeopathy? No doubt!

Are there hucksters in the FDA & AMA approved modern drug makers?

You know the answer to that.

I'm sorry, rougy, you're conflating homeopathy with acupuncture and herbal remedies. Homeopathy is a complete and utter scam from top to bottom.

Acupuncture, at best, is a placebo. No one has be able to demonstrate that it works as advertised.

And of course there are herbs that work and "natural" substances that work. And there's things like ground tiger penis that do not work. But it has little to do with homeopathy.

Making fun of people who "believe" in homeopathy feels like disinformation to me. Turn them all into loons so that no one demands alternatives. Most drugs are derivatives of plants, herbs, trees etc. They were all "homeopathic" at one point. If he said "isolate the salicylic acid from the bark of a willow tree" that would sound funny too. Unfortunately now it takes upwards of a billion dollars to get something through the FDA. I don't know what that answer is, we can't have people selling dangerous and ineffective crap, but that doesn't mean that everything "homeopathic" doesn't work.

>> ^rougy:
I don't think it's all bullshit. I think a lot of it probably works.
That "Ice Man" they found in Swiss country many years ago had tattoos on the pressure points well known to accupuncturists. He had herbs in his belly that were very useful for a common sickness (something to do with worms, I think).

Right well... it didn't work for him then, did it?

But seriously... you're not serious right?
Pure fallacious argument from antiquity. Just because an idea like acupuncture has been around along time doesn't mean it is correct. We don't exempt it from testing and possible scientific invalidation just 'cause some Ancient culture has done it for thousands of years.

>> ^burdturgler:
Making fun of people who "believe" in homeopathy feels like disinformation to me. Turn them all into loons so that no one demands alternatives. Most drugs are derivatives of plants, herbs, trees etc. They were all "homeopathic" at one point. If he said "isolate the salicylic acid from the bark of a willow tree" that would sound funny too. Unfortunately now it takes upwards of a billion dollars to get something through the FDA. I don't know what that answer is, we can't have people selling dangerous and ineffective crap, but that doesn't mean that everything "homeopathic" doesn't work.


You're talking about Naturopathy... herbs have effects, yes... it is plausible.

The thing about Homeopathy though, is that if it's truly homeopathic according to the rules set down when it was invented... there really is no way it could work. Any active ingredients are diluted to the point that there is only water left.

Some products are labeled homeopathic, but actually have enough drugs in there to still do something. The only difference, then, between these falsely-labeled homeopathic treatments, herbal remedies, and the drugs you get from your pharmacy is that the homeopathic treatments and herbs are "alternative" and therefore, not regulated for safety by the FDA. Given the choice, I would go with the mainstream drugs which have been tested more thoroughly.

Zicam users recently fell afoul of a dearth of safety testing. Zicam was falsely labeled homeopathic, but it actually had measurable levels of zinc in it. People shot it up their nose and lost their sense of smell.

I'm not saying that a homeopathic root is going to cure a gunshot wound.

I am saying that all of our drugs are derived from a plant or mineral.

I am serious.

I don't see acupunture as a cure-all. It has its limits.

But where the cessation of pain is concerned, yes, acupuncture works.

I can't believe that you're saying "just because it's worked for thousands of years" it's bullshit unless you're being sarcastic.

And this is especially tragic to any American who has been in an emergency room without insurance.

Homeopathy is a fraud on two levels. On the first level they apply chemicals that have an effect opposite to the one you actually want. I.E. taking the active chemical in poison oak/ivy(urushiol)as a cure for a skin rash. This effect is allegedly achieved by diluting the chemical in water. This is the second level of fraud in homeopathy. Common homeopathic treatments are so diluting that the chance of there even being a single molecule of the active ingredient in the dosage is astronomically small.

Now, about acupuncture. There is no evidence that it works as advertised. That is by redirecting qi at your meridians. In fact, there is ample evidence that these meridians were actually a very recent invention and a massive fraud. Any perceived effect acupuncture has is either coincidental or a placebo effect. Which is what many, many recent studies have shown.

>> ^rougy:
I can't believe that you're saying "just because it's worked for thousands of years" it's bullshit unless you're being sarcastic.


C'mon rougy... who said that?
I said just because it has been AROUND for thousands of years doesn't mean it has worked the way it's purported for thousands of years.
Plenty of old ideas are still working, like immobilizing a broken limb; plenty of old ideas don't work anymore, like phrenology. Longevity does not validate the idea, testing does.

I don't argue that there are liars, frauds, swindlers and dangers in homeopathy. I'm saying the term homeopathy has been made so broad as to encompass anything that is not federally funded or approved. There is a problem with the FDA here in the US. And how they define and handle "homeopathy" is part of it. There are plenty of FDA drugs that have killed or substantially ruined the lives of many people. There are many doctor approved techniques that have done the same. Those drugs and techniques were a fraud too. Not every drug is safe and effective. Not every homeopathic practice is unsafe and ineffective. That's the facts.

We should have a reliable government agency that does due diligence to bring safe and effective drugs and medical treatments to people who need them at a cost that doesn't prohibit new emergence into the market. But we don't. Pharmaceutical companies would like to treat homeopathy like UFO's and make a lot of press over certain cases, brainwashing people into ignoring their own past, and lumping everyone who "believes" into the loony bin, preventing anyone without a billion dollars from getting into your medicine cabinet. There are other drugs being prescribed regularly to patients in other countries that would be considered "homeopathic" here.

>> ^anyprophet:
Now, about acupuncture. There is no evidence that it works as advertised. That is by redirecting qi at your meridians. In fact, there is ample evidence that these meridians were actually a very recent invention and a massive fraud. Any perceived effect acupuncture has is either coincidental or a placebo effect. Which is what many, many recent studies have shown.


"Recent examinations of Ötzi, a 5,000-year-old mummy found in the Alps, have identified over 50 tattoos on his body, some of which are located on acupuncture points that would today be used to treat certain ailments. Some scientists believe that this is evidence that practices similar to acupuncture were practiced elsewhere in Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. According to an article published in The Lancet by Dorfer et al., "We hypothesised that there might have been a medical system similar to acupuncture (Chinese Zhenjiu: needling and burning) that was practiced in Central Europe 5,200 years ago... A treatment modality similar to acupuncture thus appears to have been in use long before its previously known period of use in the medical tradition of ancient China. This raises the possibility of acupuncture having originated in the Eurasian continent at least 2000 years earlier than previously recognised."

I don't know about you, but pre-history doesn't indicate "recent" to me.



Again, I'm not saying it's a cure-all. I'm not saying that modern technology hasn't zeroed in on the real cause of many immediate problems, or ailments.

But I think to toss aside what is apparently a form of "healing" that predates our written history is more than a little smug.

The people here who are defending homeopathy obviously do not understand what homeopathy is. A solution prepared under homeopathic guidelines has one part of the "curative" substance to 10^20th water or more. I say again: the active ingredient is one in 10 to the 20th power OR MORE. 1:1000000000000000000000. The chance that there is a single molecule of the "curative" substance in the "medicine" is absolutely astronomical. Homeopathy is a scam and has no effects whatsoever.

This conversation is over. You aren't even reading any of what I said. Nothing of what I said is even disputable.

Pressure Points exist. IE spots on the body where the nerves are especially sensitive to physical manipulation.

Chemicals in our body that can induce altered states do exist. IE hormones. I did not specify which altered state.

There are also many ways to release the chemicals and hormones in the body. Dying releases a chemical. Eating a hot pepper releases a chemical. Drinking suppresses a hormone. Exercise releases causes chemicals to be released.

Perhaps acupuncture can as well.

I said nothing about the validity of the beliefs behind it.. just that they do seem to coincide with the science of the body we know by other terms.

Stay in school, and stay on videosift. Maybe you'll learn to read.

I donwnvoted you because I'm an asshole and I dont like your tone, plus what you say is contradictory and false.

>> ^Skeeve:
The people here who are defending homeopathy obviously do not understand what homeopathy is. A solution prepared under homeopathic guidelines has one part of the "curative" substance to 10^20th water or more. I say again: the active ingredient is one in 10 to the 20th power OR MORE. 1:1000000000000000000000. The chance that there is a single molecule of the "curative" substance in the "medicine" is absolutely astronomical. Homeopathy is a scam and has no effects whatsoever.


This definition of homeopathy is part of the problem. Who made that definition? I hope it wasn't the people who approved Fen-Phen et al. I truly wish for you that you never have a family member go to a cancer treatment center because the first thing they start prescribing is "positive thinking" and other "homeopathic" treatments. Many of which have profound effect on the outcome of their patients. Yes, get chemo, of course! Do whatever you have to do .. but don't count out the power of your own mind and body to fight disease. Homeopathy is a lot more than watered down drugs.

What the fuck is wrong with you people? Homeopathy has a very specific definition.

And there is no evidence that acupuncture works as advertised. Quit the opposite, actually.

I mean, shit. Look at fucking wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

nice link to ur evidence. here's mine. it's u.



almost!

here's u on the news at :47

>> ^burdturgler:
This definition of homeopathy is part of the problem. Who made that definition? I hope it wasn't the people who approved Fen-Phen et al. I truly wish for you that you never have a family member go to a cancer treatment center because the first thing they start prescribing is "positive thinking" and other "homeopathic" treatments. Many of which have profound effect on the outcome of their patients. Yes, get chemo, of course! Do whatever you have to do .. but don't count out the power of your own mind and body to fight disease. Homeopathy is a lot more than watered down drugs.


Wow, a new level in stupidity. Instead of just looking it up you continue to argue what you know nothing about. Who made that definition you ask? Well, it was the inventor of homeopathy, Samuel Hahneman. HE INVENTED HOMEOPATHY! It is defined as: A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy individuals similar to those of the disease itself.

There is no alternative definition.

Positive thinking and placebo do have an effect on the body, that is undisputed. THAT IS NOT HOMEOPATHY and that has nothing to do with homeopathy. Homeopathy is a very specific practice, it is NOT a catch-all word for "positive thinking" or any "new age" treatments.

Do your research. Stop being stupid.

I think the terms are being obfuscated here. Homeopathy is not all "alternative medicine". Homeopathy is what skeeve wrote, dissolving something into water that has the ill effect of what you want to cure - poison ivy for rash, for instance - and dissolving it many, many times, and then drinking it. The more dissolved, the more effective is the hypothesis.

In actuality, you're just drinking water.

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What was with the triangle clock ? was that just a joke or was it an actual time piece ?

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