Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Well, this was kind of a pointless flame-out.

I'm not sure from that what he finds distasteful.

After being bashed by good ol' Glu for announcing that I use homeopathics (back in a Randi thread), I was conscious of the fact that posting anything with Deepak Chopra or some kind of alternative healing would basically be an invitation for his attack.

It was a relief when he left. You know what it's like when 5 minutes after you post something, the same person leaves the same kind of comments to the same kind of posts? Here are some of my favourites:

quantum flapdoodle
woo woo new age

I'm actually pretty grateful for his consistency in attacking my posts. It helped me learn to take things less personally, if even only a little bit.

I'm still glad he's gone.

i also disagreed with him almost 100% but that's sooooo not the point.
it's much better to have your thoughts challenged by someone like that, and to see how they post.

anyway his sifted list is worth 10000000 lolcats.

and his "pointless flameout" is in the top rated comments.

I'm not glad he's gone, and the Science Channel will miss his presence. Gluonium, for all I disagreed with his way of presenting his thoughts, I found to be on target and interesting on many issues, and I was glad he was there to make life interesting. His perspective, as I remember it, was something along the lines of, "It doesn't matter if I call you names or not, the science is undeniable and you're an idiot if you don't see that." Don't know how much I bought into the beginning and end of that sentence, but he at least kept all the scientific revisionists on their toes and in line.

In a specific case, I found the way in which he spoke to Persephone out of line and totally uncalled for, but he was on the money with his argument, because I do in fact share his thoughts on the matter of homeopathics et. al. And I do. I think - rather, I know - that homeopathics do not work, but I know that I'll never convince everyone all at once, and it's not exactly the most damaging of antiscientific beliefs, so I let it slide, something Gluonium didn't do. I'm pretty sure I pissed him off when I said as much, but what's done is done.

I still would be happy if he came back. If not...guess I'll just go back to watching House MD.

He was definitely an asset to the Sift, in terms of videos and comments. I was disappointed when I read his 'flameout'.

For the love of BABY JEBUS, can we please stop the inane "we must sift the sift and siftusers" and stupid ghey, whiny calls for witchhunts.

MINK, you are not going to get a special ribbon which makes you Executive Decider of Cool Users. You are not going to get special banning powers, but if you so desire, please constantly email your complaints to the admins. But please, please take this shit offline. I'm sick of reading daily about it in SiftTalk.

Online communities are ephemeral. I haven't been here long enough to know who all the admins are, but short of admins, users will come and go. When I paged through the top 100 users, I think 80+ of them had zero unsifted vids. That doesn't mean they won't have 3 unsifted vids tomorrow, but it might. People come and go in any vibrant community, and sometimes the exits are flamboyant.

I can certainly tell you that if the sift stopped wallowing in free speech, I would stop wallowing in the sift, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

I also think this site has about the lowest ratio of ad hominim attacks of any online community I've been a part of, and I've been wallowing in online communities since 1980.

someone bump down some coin for MINK to have a blog.....hell, I know-MINK!!, Come on over to my page, I'll give you my login, and you can use my Blog Space Area......Goooooooo,JOE!

I agree with oxdot who says things nicely without being a jerk.

Hell, MINK, he said his password was garbled, so why don't you play the single white female of the sift community and be gluonium.

Glounium was male? Why would Mink being gluonium be playing the single white female? I suddenly feel lost.

lol

MINK, you are not going to get a special ribbon which makes you Executive Decider of Cool Users.

it's SO funny that u would think i want that.


anyway i am pissed on russian vodka in lithuania.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

When I say it was pointless- I mean that I can't tell from his comment what his beef is. Did he disagrree with the thrust of the comments in the thread? Did he think the general level of comments were dumb? No clue.

For me, that kind of flame-out is a self-indulgence and says more about the user than the community.

look at his sifted vids dag.

Hang his number to the rafters, he will be missed, lots of good contributors have gone missing, but then again lots of new sifters have arrived.

another MIA sifter who's jersey should be retired.
http://bl968.videosift.com/member/bl968/published

dag, there are 3 comments in a row, just before gluo's, that I think make it pretty obvious (well, at least to me). Tie that in with the information trail from his sifts and comments. All his 'flame-out' tells me is that he'd reached The Homophobic Limit, no more nor less. I worry that it will happen to me one day, which will be sad for me because this is one of the only nice communities I've *ever* found on the interblags.

In any case, I'm glad this sift talk is here. I don't usually browse sift talk but I was going to make a post about gluonium leaving, and noticed it'd already been done (thanks, MINK!). Now I have an appropriate location to say this:

gluonium, you and your sifts are awesome, and I'm sorry you're gone.

Berticus, and anyone else who is listening and cares, there are plenty of LGBT-friendly folks on the sift. I'm one. I'll say it loud, I'll say it proud: I speak queer. I know not everyone feels that way, but the sift is a reflection of the world--even if a rather left-leaning reflection of the world. Personally, I'm glad the sift doesn't just reflect my own views: what good would it be to come and play in a mirror?

But there are many friendly voices out here, and if you need some anti-homophobe comments to remind you of the overweening support and acceptance of the vast diversity of human beings, shout out. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would leap to...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Well, I'm sorry he's gone. Tolerance is hard- and it's a two-way street. The people most effected by comments are also the most likely to lash out IMHO. They are usually very passionate, sensitive people and the Sift needs them.

I'm pretty athiestic but I'm a follower of Jesus- love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek- all that stuff.

It's easy to get your feelings hurt on the net. We will continue to deal with people posting extreme racist, sexist or homophobic content. We might ban them- or we might talk to them. Sometimes people are just having a bad day. As humans- we're all pretty fucking imperfect. "Let he who is without intolerance invoke the first ban" and all that.

Oxdottir: "Glounium was male? Why would Mink being gluonium be playing the single white female? I suddenly feel lost."

Like the movie, Single White Female (1992), where Jennfier Jason Leigh takes on Bridget Fonda's identity. Too obscure of a reference?

One name - Snakeplissken!

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

^ Exactly. He will return in the end days - if we prove ourselves worthy.

I miss Gwaan too... but he's in Saudi Arabia and they just block everything there...

sorry to joedirt, for starting yet another pointless discussion, perhaps you would like a ribbon for "President of Telling MINK to STFU".

good points oxdottir.. but everyone goes on about tolerance and the Sift reflecting the real world... when actually many people are intolerant and the Sift is a totally skewed place where argumentative people with interesting and authoritative points of view are discouraged. oh. that is the real world i guess.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I don't think argumentative people are discouraged. I do think MINK - that you are quick to point out the negative in most things. That's OK- your points are sometimes valid - but damn, is Lithuania that depressing?

I care very much about this community - but if I adopted your sky is falling attitude I would be afraid to log-on. I'm just glad comment voting didn't cause the Internet to explode.

it doesn't matter what you "think" dag, i am discouraged right here in this thread and you didn't even notice. your response is often "i don't think that"... well, yes, obviously you don't think bad things, if you're a hippy and you know it clap your hands.

about "pointing out the negative"... well, i am a designer, it's my job to fix problems so something runs smoothly. i can't do that by posting constant congratulations to the Dear Leader, can i?

i know that the problem with MINK's style is people think MINK is a negative person. but isn't fixing things a positive action? might MINK not be an idealist searching for a better way? is it constructive or destructive to call * dead on a bad idea? think about it. Fixers have to sound negative in order to push things towards positive. Positive people just sit around being positive, and throwing rocks at the fixers and boatrockers, while benefiting from their fixes.

Anyway this is gluonium's thread, he was a good Sifter IMO, RIP.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I will concede that you and Gluonium are both passionate people - the world and the Sift needs them - you are free to make your passionate speech.

However, just because someone is really fired up about their ideas and convictions doesn't make them right. You are right some of the time, other times you are dead wrong. Of course that's my opinion which is also right some of the time and wrong much of the time as well.

That's why discussion & consensus isn't a bad thing- and listening to people and responding thoughtfully is the way to go. Gluonium chose to bow out without even explaining what his issue was - I've always thought those kinds of dramatic departures are a conceit and don't serve much purpose.

true, i have flounced out of many a room and then regretted it, nearly flounced out of here a couple times, still trying to stick around and contribute

i take pride in my sifted list, whatever you think about me, i add to the sift, i don't just throw rocks in here or post obvious crap for star points. i guess that's why i felt some affinity with gluonium, even if i thought he was ruder than i try to be, he might just have been frustrated that SiftLove is mainly directed at boring nice people.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I don't think VideoSift needs a "strong-arm" type administration to take care of the troublemakers that are discussing things distasteful to others. Those kinds of "AdminSift" sites suck royally.

And I have read all of your posts to date- and that seems to me what you are pushing for.

It's not going to happen. Unlike other sites, the admins are here, every day, every hour. If there's blantant crap on the site- let us know. Otherwise, down vote it and move on.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Well, please don't flounce out of here. You're presence is welcome even if I don't agree with you. you've definitely started some good discussions.

hmm that's interesting, i am really not advocating strong arm admins, not even sure what you mean there... glad to clear that up for you

but i do advocate being snobbish about what's on here, trying to encourage the more colourful and interesting things, because too much generalisation and lolcat leads to grey soup. i can go to youtube for that.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Well, if we are "wallowing in free speech" now, I would view the opposite of that to be a "strong arm" type system where free speech is curtailed.

If we prevented people from talking about their homophobias - I'm sure Gluonium would still be with us.

by "wallowing in free speech" i mean "congratulating yourself on being free while interesting people leave" or perhaps "being directionless and happy about it".

there is a difference between INSPIRATIONAL leadership and STRONG ARM.
i believe a community needs leadership. that's all i am saying. leadership isn't necessarily restrictive or stalinist. Ghandi was also a leader.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

OK MINK - you created this thread- How would you have prevented gluonium's departure?

What changes would you make around here to keep the interesting people here?.

I don't understand what you mean by "being directionless and happy about it". Do you mean we're too light on moderation? Do we need to provide more positive feedback to the people we think are inspirational?

Would you sack Lucky, James and I and replace us with more INSPIRATIONAL leaders?

Please share.

re: flameouts

fuck 'em if they don't want to dance.

oh man, dag, that's not it at all.

i don't believe there is only authoritarian vs libertarian. i believe leaders have to inspire in an atmosphere of freedom. that was a general point, not an attack on you. it's a bit vain of you to take it personally and respond with so much sneer, i might say.

the leadership here is inspirational in that you are friendly, open, responsive, intelligent, altruistic. that's great. i am still here because of that.

perhaps i am talking more about the direction. At the moment your goal seems to be to get bigger, and therefore better. I dispute that bigger is better. And i don't think growth is a direction.

So, please share... answer the question "why videosift?" without waffling about various vague nice things. Try to pin it down. Getting the slogan was the first step. I like the slogan "online video quality control". Everything we do should follow on from what you set as the aim of the site. Then we can all rally round and react to that aim, and measure our success by how close we get to the aim, rather than how many active members there are. e.g. if quality control is the aim, and users who submitted high quality clips leave, that is not a success according to the motto.

Of course "why videosift?" is different for everbody, but you guys are the admins, and some of us sheeple would like to know what the hell we're doing here, so shine a light

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

We don't need a "why videosift" answer from me. That sounds perilously close to a mission statement. My favorite places on the web are the self-organized phenoms that don't necessarily have a pigeon-holed purpose but are great anyway.

We're not a single-task valley start-up looking to fix something.

People invest themselves in VideoSift for lots of different reasons- and that's great. I'm not a pied piper looking to get everyone to pull together for a single goal.

So no, I'm not going to answer "Why videosift" for you - but you spend a lot of time here - so why not answer it for yourself?

@MINK as this is clearly a discussion about VS and the leadership there of, and with dag in particular atm, it's not vain to think that a comment about leadership (even one that is generalized) is aimed at him. If it isnt, its your place to clarify that, as you now have.

On the specific of it being a failing of VS if a quality video submitter leaves, I disagree. I disagree because the diversity of humanity/people/human nature means that there can be all kinds of reasons why someone like that may feel the need to leave, infact, too many for VS or any community to be 100% insulated against.

Now, it may be, that the specific case of a quality sifter leaving might illustrate an issue about which VS could do something, and thus perhaps prevent or diminish the chance of another quality sifter feeling the need to leave for that reason in the future. But I don't believe it will be possible in all such cases. Moving off of theory to this specific, im far from sure of the exact reasons of gluonium going. I know possible reasons have been suggest in this thread, but i wont put other peoples words into his/her mouth by assuming that they are 100% accurate.

Not knowing that, i dont see that there is anything concrete to discuss around. A possible, "rock the boat style" this smells bad to me, and might indicate something wrong we could fix, IS reasonable, but if we cant pin down what the problem was, it wont advance anything. (discussing Why VS might get to concrete points of value and lead to interesting discussions, but thats a different issue).

Anyway, taping a leap, and assuming that the tipping point/final straw, for deciding to leave, was a sequence of several comments in a row by different sifters with which he/she disagreed, can NOT be legislated against/planed against. If that was the reason, VS is not responsible and cannot BE responsible, for guarding against it occurring in the future. People disagree a lot on the sift. Thats healthy. But seeing several people disagree with your viewpoints in a row and have that be the final straw to leave, well, that may be human nature but tis not VS's place to pick up the dummy from the floor and putt it back in the pram, or to slap people's wrists for expressing a personal opinion on a controversial matter, or saying that if your view gets expresed, you cant chime in in agreement until another person has disagreed, so as to maintain a balance in the force.

Anyway, this was interesting, so i'll butt back out.

Oh, and as my view Why VS, im an anarchist i expect (nothing else pins me down enough, and theres enough in anarchist to resist any pinning down of it for it to appeal on those grounds alone) so i probably would answer it similar to dags view, namely, that theres no flag to run too, or direction we must all go, and there ain't nothing wrong with all sitting around a campfire, some people leaving over time, some people joining, and sharing stories by the firelight.

Whats wrong with community, why must something beyond that be achieved.

Thanks Thylan that was a good read.
And dag, that answer IS an answer, and an answer is what I needed, so thanks.

Unfortunately my favourite places on the web are places that have an aim, so it's annoying that i am addicted to this place which has no aim. i don't actually believe in "self organised platforms" but it's interesting to watch it unfold.

So anyway good luck, this discussion has cleared my head a lot and if this is the way you want it then I am man enough to respect that. Dunno where to go next though so you're stuck with me for a while.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Self organized platforms are pretty damn fascinating. My two favorite sites on this earth besides here are MetaFilter and Wikipedia. Both pretty laissez faire.

As an admin I see my job here as getting out of people's way and helping the collective run the site.

I'm glad you're sticking around MINK - don't Gluonium on me man. That's my new word.

I hope Gluonium appreciates all the virtual hand-wringing for his benefit. Maybe he'll rise again. I sent him an email with a link to this thread.

And with that- I'm off to the sack- 1:30 AM in Oz.

Mink: I would suggest that you just learn to accept that this site is never going to be exactly what you want it to be, nor is it ever going to be exactly what I want it to be, or exactly what Thylan or anyone else wants it to be... such is the nature of the interwebs, and I commend Dag for being a leader without restriction.

Just try to find yourself a good little niche within it that you can be happy in, that is what I have done, because if you were to ask me, I would tell you that I completely share in your dislike of LOLcats, mashups, fanvids, and prefer that people sift thoughtful, informative content. But, I've learned to accept that there is little that can be done about this without completely changing the nature of the site, which I don't think would be good at all and would be contrary to everything I love about its open ended egalitarian format. So, I've just learned to ignore that which I find trivial, and I don't even notice most of that stuff anymore because I've gotten so damn good at ignoring it... as well as certain comments or topics that I personally do not want to get involved arguing over or perhaps find offensive. As others have pointed out, thick skins are essential to hanging on to an online community for any amount of time.

Also, I don't think you have been here long enough to fully grasp just how much things have changed, it used to be, way back before channels and collectives, that getting anything other than lolcats or people injuring themselves published was nigh impossible. Since the implementation of new features, there is definitely a broader range of content, so just be patient, things are changing for the better.

I'd also like to ask you to please cut the admins, dag especially, some slack, because it just seems to me that every time they make a move to change anything or offer an opinion or idea of their own, you jump all over them demanding all kinds of explanations or accuse them of going about things the wrong way... its their site man, be thankful for them that they've put all this work into it and given you a place to play and the free speech to even question them in the first place... because if they really wanted to, they could strong arm that away too... and I, for one, am glad that this site is run the way that it is.

whatever raven, i suggest you learn to accept that MINK isn't going to do what you suggest, and doesn't expect you to change either.

We all come here for different reasons, I come here to argue sociological theory with the admins and increase my knowledge of internet communities and how they work. It's done out of love and curiosity. Dag understands better than you. He has never indicated to me that he needs any slack, and when I tell him to take more of a lead and have less discussions he disagrees. Now you know.

Have it your way, just cease to be so surprised when the rest of us, less generous individuals, lose patience with your constant griping.

now who's griping.

Glonium has some quality sifts. Politics religion, and a smart opinionated heterogeneous mix of folks are going to produce conflict.

I just listened to the No Asshole Rule, a biz book about the ill effects of jerks in the workplace. An example is Intel teaches/taught a style of argument, creative conflict. Basically to attack ideas instead of people. Some good principles IMO--

1. Sometimes the best management is no management at all -- first do no harm!
2. Indifference is as important as passion.
3. In organizational life, you can have influence over others or you can have freedom from others, but you can't have both at the same time.
4. Saying smart things and giving smart answers are important. Learning to listen to others and to ask smart questions is more important.
5. Learn how to fight as if you are right and listen as if you are wrong: It helps you develop strong opinions that are weakly held.
6. You get what you expect from people. This is especially true when it comes to selfish behavior; unvarnished self-interest is a learned social norm, not an unwavering feature of human behavior.
7. Getting a little power can turn you into an insensitive self-centered jerk.
8. Avoid pompous jerks whenever possible. They not only can make you feel bad about yourself, chances are that you will eventually start acting like them.
9. The best test of a person's character is how he or she treats those with less power.
10. The best single question for testing an organization’s character is: What happens when people make mistakes?
11. The best people and organizations have the attitude of wisdom: The courage to act on what they know right now and the humility to change course when they find better evidence.
12. The quest for management magic and breakthrough ideas is overrated; being a master of the obvious is underrated.
13. Err on the side of optimism and positive energy in all things.
14. It is good to ask yourself, do I have enough? Do you really need more money, power, prestige, or stuff?
15. Jim Maloney is right: Work is an overrated activity