There is nothing left to say, you've just pegged it entirely. You totally rock

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TL;DR version please!

London rioters are just bored and spoiled brats who want to break shit and steal stuff. The middle-eastern uprisings are people freeing themselves from oppression.

That's a lot of words.

Well, during the Rodney King riots in the U.S. it was basically the same situation as in London... people (including some of my friends, I'm ashamed to say) saw it as an opportunity. The police were overwhelmed and couldn't be everywhere at once, so throngs of (mostly young) people headed down to their local strip mall and grabbed anything they could carry. The justification my friends gave? Those places were being looted by other people anyway, so you might as well get something for yourself in the process. Plus some of them felt they were "sticking it to the man." They saw themselves as protesting the Rodney King verdict. If cops could get off for killing someone why shouldn't law abiding citizens get off for stealing a couple of items?

The rationalizations were, of course, ludicrous. But I think the whole rioting thing is a complex issue. My friends aren't thugs. Aside from the riots, the most trouble they've ever been in with the law since then are parking violations. Certainly there were genuine gang-bangers and other thugs out during the riots looking for trouble, but I think a lot of the rioters (both in London and Los Angeles) were just normal kids who succumbed to the excitement and temptation of mob mentality (see this article about the psychology of mobs).

A voice of reason.

The bottom line is, will they address the root cause of this issue? They really have to, we need some control and if the parents can't/won't instil it in their kids then it starts with schools. There is very little consequence in school, or outside for that matter. They have nothing to fear, they ignore detentions, most of the ill-behaved don't want to be in school anyway so would love to be excluded and they talk to the staff and teachers exactly how they want to. And I work in a nice area! Fuck knows what the inner-city school system is like. Worse, clearly.

Somehow they need to get it back to consequences. If you get excluded, you do community service until you're old enough to find a job or you go back to school and get some qualifications. SOMETHING, other than this crap where you know without doubt that if you drop out of school you can sit on benefits and wait til something better comes along. Or dare I say it, National Service? Anyway, this country is going to shit and they better start acting NOW.

Unjustifiable as their actions are, calling it mindless destruction by spoilt children does no good in my book. There is a reason, there always is a reason, and I highly doubt it is as simple as it is presented to be in most articles I've read so far. They are criminals, yes, but what's their motivation, what's their reasoning? Without knowing the deeper cause, any actions -- crackdowns as many suggest -- will only suppress the problem for the time being, making a later outbreak all the worse.

Particularly if law enforcement plays dirty, pushes the boundaries of the rule of law -- and the use of billboards and social media by the police as a modern pillory, that's on the fucking edge, if you ask me. If one of those bonehead militias acts upon it, the shit could turn ugly real quick.

Anyway, there's no wisdom, no insight I can claim to have from within the isolation of what is commonly known as the middle class; only impressions and thoughts.

However, the violence cannot come as a surprise, given the unrest last winter caused by a raise in tuition fees; it cannot come as a surprise, given the sheer volume of social cuts, particularly small programs. How can anyone be caught off guard by their blatant disregard of the law given how disenfranchised many of them are, and given how the crooks working in the City of London walked away scot-free after the damage they caused, which was magnitude higher. Who speaks out on their behalf? Politicians? Unions? Seems to me, they're on their own, destined to remain invisible -- until they lash out. They appear to be farther removed from the democratic process than anyone would like to admit. Politics, society, community, whatever you want to call it: they have no stakes in the game.

And how surprising is it, really, to find them looting expensive comsumer products -- you are what you wear, right? It's in your face, everywhere, all the time, particularly in a city like London. So now the folks who were cut off from this just snapped and went for it, no matter the rules? I'm shocked!

As for their treatment by the coppers: are ASPOs still handed out left, right and center in certain districts?

But hey, like I said, I'm too far removed from their reality of life to make any meaningful statements, much less suggestions. Just poking in the dark, that's what this is.

@SDGundamX

I don't think this can compare. First: no one got off with murder. If anything, Western Europe is extremely harsh on its law enforcement officers, which doesn't help them want to protect the community, especially when the latter seems to loathe them so much. The Duggan case was nothing but an alibi for the majority of these looters.

Second, any person who thinks that they are entitled to loot from the livelihood of their neighbours, or burn their homes, has a serious problem, especially if they find the "well-other-people-are-doing-it" excuse acceptable. I fully understand the concept of mob mentality, and it seems it is because our society is such a lenient and dismissive "parent" that these youths fall prey to it. Why do these spoiled brats think it's okay to let of steam in such a destructive manner? Because they know they can get away with it, and that people will bend logic and common sense over backwards in order to find excuses for them. The government and society does have some responsibility, only not necessarily what people are accusing it of. A loving parent will care for its children, and that includes punishing them when they do wrong, not going all "you poor baby" on them. Kids need to learn that civil rights cannot be separated from civil responsibilities.

You make an excellent point in this comment by comparing with Japan: what is it that they have that makes them pull together instead of riot and pillage? A sense of community, and respect for authority. I'm not for blind respect, mind you, and the Japanese have good reason to be distrustful of the government's treatment of the Tepco scandal (amongst other things), but that certainly didn't keep them from helping each other.

Every action has some form of motivation, even a psycho's mass murdering spree; it's all good and fine to look for it, but in the meanwhile it's the protective action that counts, something the police force in GB took ages to do. As for the "bonehead militias", most of them were simply groups of neighbours and friends trying their best to protect their livelihoods. Most of them were immigrants who had worked hard to build a life for themselves abroad, only to find everything ruined because of unruly misguided youths high on violence.

As for blaming the violence on the bad decisions concerning social services, I beg to differ. Look at the protests/riots in Greece, Spain, etc. All of them had major peacefull counterparts, with actual demands being made. It's not like the so-called "disenfranchised youths" (and they were not all poor, nor young btw) of London and elsewhere did not have recent examples of protests that did not involve using social networking to best loot the fashion shop, and burning people's homes (Arab Spring anyone?).

I agree about the ridiculous consummer identity we have going on in society... "you are what you buy" really sickens me to the bone. As does the corporate criminels going on with their billionaire, society-crushing lifestyles. But is it possible to send a more counterproductive message than the one we've seen in England?

p.s.: what's and ASPO?

>> ^radx:

Unjustifiable as their actions are, calling it mindless destruction by spoilt children does no good in my book. There is a reason, there always is a reason, and I highly doubt it is as simple as it is presented to be in most articles I've read so far. They are criminals, yes, but what's their motivation, what's their reasoning? Without knowing the deeper cause, any actions -- crackdowns as many suggest -- will only suppress the problem for the time being, making a later outbreak all the worse.
Particularly if law enforcement plays dirty, pushes the boundaries of the rule of law -- and the use of billboards and social media by the police as a modern pillory, that's on the fucking edge, if you ask me. If one of those bonehead militias acts upon it, the shit could turn ugly real quick.
Anyway, there's no wisdom, no insight I can claim to have from within the isolation of what is commonly known as the middle class; only impressions and thoughts.
However, the violence cannot come as a surprise, given the unrest last winter caused by a raise in tuition fees; it cannot come as a surprise, given the sheer volume of social cuts, particularly small programs. How can anyone be caught off guard by their blatant disregard of the law given how disenfranchised many of them are, and given how the crooks working in the City of London walked away scot-free after the damage they caused, which was magnitude higher. Who speaks out on their behalf? Politicians? Unions? Seems to me, they're on their own, destined to remain invisible -- until they lash out. They appear to be farther removed from the democratic process than anyone would like to admit. Politics, society, community, whatever you want to call it: they have no stakes in the game.
And how surprising is it, really, to find them looting expensive comsumer products -- you are what you wear, right? It's in your face, everywhere, all the time, particularly in a city like London. So now the folks who were cut off from this just snapped and went for it, no matter the rules? I'm shocked!
As for their treatment by the coppers: are ASPOs still handed out left, right and center in certain districts?
But hey, like I said, I'm too far removed from their reality of life to make any meaningful statements, much less suggestions. Just poking in the dark, that's what this is.

>> ^hpqp:

Every action has some form of motivation, even a psycho's mass murdering spree; it's all good and fine to look for it, but in the meanwhile it's the protective action that counts, something the police force in GB took ages to do. As for the "bonehead militias", most of them were simply groups of neighbours and friends trying their best to protect their livelihoods. Most of them were immigrants who had worked hard to build a life for themselves abroad, only to find everything ruined because of unruly misguided youths high on violence.
As for blaming the violence on the bad decisions concerning social services, I beg to differ. Look at the protests/riots in Greece, Spain, etc. All of them had major peacefull counterparts, with actual demands being made. It's not like the so-called "disenfranchised youths" (and they were not all poor, nor young btw) of London and elsewhere did not have recent examples of protests that did not involve using social networking to best loot the fashion shop, and burning people's homes (Arab Spring anyone?).
I agree about the ridiculous consummer identity we have going on in society... "you are what you buy" really sickens me to the bone. As does the corporate criminels going on with their billionaire, society-crushing lifestyles. But is it possible to send a more counterproductive message than the one we've seen in England?
p.s.: what's and ASPO?
Judging by the public statements of officials, the "protective action" is bound to overshoot. Like I said, pillories, assembly-line-justice, the calls for harsher sentences, the calls to have the rioters' housing/benefits stripped, the thought of using the military -- civil liberties are put on notice, and that's putting it mildly. Let the rozzers do their job within the regular frame of the law, play it by the book, don't give them any reason whatsoever for another backlash. Take the kettle off the stove. Forcing a lid on the spout will only make matters worse sooner than later.


As for the Greece/Spain comparison, I would like to submit this: UNICEF 2007: An overview of child well-being in rich countries. Prior to the economic meltdown, Greece and Spain were paradise for kids, compared to the UK. I wouldn't dare to make comparisons nowadays, not with 40%+ youth unemployment in Spain and Greece. But it's clear that the UK has been growing worse over years and years. The lid was bound to blow someday. I figured it would be mass protests, nonviolent ones I might add. I certainly didn't see it taking the shape it has, but in retrospect, signs were abundant -- and ignored. The alarming streak of suicides among kids in recent years alone should have been more than enough.

These are long-term developments, long-term failures, not just the recent cuts. But they sure as hell didn't help, and neither does the prospect of even more cuts down the road. Small example: youth centers are closed down, so now you have kids bored out of their minds who are not allowed to loiter (see: ASBO).

That's what I meant when I said disenfranchised. The state has been on the retreat since Thatcher, the educational system is focused on testing, intolerance for kids in public places has been on the rise for decades and the social gap is wider than anywhere else in Europe. So the ones who drew the short straw are fucked. And so are their children. And theirs, until the cycle is broken. Look at the UN report, page 22: "Relationships" and page 26: "Behaviour and Risks". That doesn't appear overnight, it's at least two generations of failure. No stable relationships, no communities, no values, no respect, no prospect.

As for ASPOs: that's a typo. Or more precisely, a brain failure, because typing a P instead of a B is not an error I can blame on my fingers.

ASBO or anti-social behaviour order is the tool of choice to stop kids from loitering. Anywhere. The street, the park, the yard, the staircase, you name it. It is the formalized dislike for children in the public space. There are, of course, reasonable uses for it, but in certain areas it is used to harass kids. At least it was, no idea if it still is.

Quasi ein Platzverweis, der keines Anlasses benötigt.

@radx

Excellent reply, thank you.

yeah well said and http://www.forbes.com/sites/shenegotiates/2011/08/09/the-london-riots-are-neither-political-protest-nor-mere-hooliganism/

>> ^alien_concept:

I can't quality, see? But I would if I could!

Here, let me fix that for you: *quality

Awarding hpqp with one star point for this contribution to VideoSift - declared quality by Ornthoron.

Thank you!

>> ^Ornthoron:

>> ^alien_concept:
I can't quality, see? But I would if I could!

Here, let me fix that for you: quality

btw, they've apparently recently determined that law enforcement lied about his having a gun. he was supposedly unarmed now, and they lied to make it look better.

russel brand wrote a pretty good editorial on the whole rioting situation. noone would destroy their own community unless they felt soooo very very alienated and disconnected from it, and their neighbors.
so what's making feel such a disconnect with the places they're from? capitalism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/uk-riots-four-years-disorder-facebook

Truth enough here aplenty. All riots are started out of money grabs and power--it is the ends and goals of the actual people that differ. They can be sheep, or they can improve their surroundings.