Pretty obvious Bush had just made up the story about the first plane on the spot.

Obviously he saw, at the time, the burning tower we were all looking at, and CNN saying "A plane crashed into the WTC" triggering his "terrible pilot" thought, though the images we all remember from that day, is ofcourse the second plane, and he mixes them up, like most witnesses do, I'm sure we've all said similar things about that day.. ie: "I saw the first plane.." etc. without thinking about it.

Yet more conspiratorial nonsense.

Anyway, what BicycleRepairMan said. Either that or he meant "I saw an airplane had hit the tower..."; he's hardly renowned for his public speaking abilities.

I think you lefties with hard-ons for Bush need to take a deep breath...

Par, the only way to know for sure, that 911 was not orchestrated by folks other than the rocket-scientist, fully capable jumbo-jet pilot zealots from the desert, is to have all the goddamn facts, you don't, we don't, and to draw conclusions based on incomplete information, is GODDAMN INSANE......Continually reel from the head-in-ass way, that most people in the world, satisfy their fear, and their inability to process information, are satisfied with...... perhaps theo47, has some clues as to how crazy, how stoned, or how ready to believe the worst case scenario, choggie is.....seriously, Rotty is right, the scapegoat program should be as crystal clear to you monkeys as a plate-glass fucking window.....One of the first tools to come out of the wool-over-the-masses-eyes bag, when the npowers that be, want to fist-fuck your mind , wearing a wristwatch witha can of Crisco........

And you thought yer vote counted for something.....keep dreaming meatbots.....

Buncha teenager know-it-alls.......

We should have the black box records from the planes released (at least in part) to coroberate something, certainly not everything on those is classified material.
AND
the release of tapes of the pentagon hit, that would be nice.
The government could deal a fatal blow to the conspiracy theories in a flash.
conspiracy or idiocy? probably idiocy but...

yeah, Rotty's one liner got them lefites screamin' for the hills...
all hail the Rotty, my new teacher, koan master, arhat...

great rotty dead and turned to clay
might fill a hole to keep the wind away

Choggie:

We don't have all the facts about evolution. There is, however, overwhelming evidence in support of it and absolutely no compelling evidence in favour of any alternative theory. So, do you think that the conclusion that evolution exists is "God damn insane"? Further, I have no idea why you're referring to pilots "from the desert." The hijacker pilots were mainly from Saudi Arabia. They were all commercially licensed and instrument rated. Many were university educated.

Bluecliff:

Flight 77's Flight Data Recorder has been released. Those belonging to Flights 11 and 175 were destroyed and never recovered.

As far as I'm aware, there were only three security tapes capturing anything of the Pentagon impact sequestered at that time. A few frames from the Pentagon helipad tape were released immediately, but the rest of the footage remained confidential as it might have been needed during the Moussaoui trial. Since his conviction though, all three have been released.

Further, you claim that by releasing such-and-such, the government could "deal a fatal blow to the conspiracy theories." With respect, that is a naive thing to say. The conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 subsist on simply no evidence and also in the face of overwhelming counterevidence. It's not like a few further pieces of counterevidence are going to change anything.

The real problem with the "Bush Lied" crowd is the denial that fanatical Muslims exist.

I have never met someone who believes what quantum is complaining about. I don't even know where an idea like that would come from.

bluecliff,

I'm merely pointing out the insanity of looking for a monster behind *every* tree, bush (haha) and stone. What possible conspiracy could there be here? Oh, Bushy himself remotely piloted the first plane...of course! That's how he saw the crash! With nonsense like this, you tend to weaken the credibility of more substantial possibilities or "conspiracies". As in battles, be wise when selecting your conspiracies.

are the tapes on the net? It would be interresting to see them, or post them on videosift.

With respect, that is a naive thing to say. The conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 subsist on simply no evidence and also in the face of overwhelming counterevidence. It's not like a few further pieces of counterevidence are going to change anything.

Also with respect;
That the conspiracy persists on no evidence is your view or A perspective, but what I meant with the fatal blow was -
most (common) people who still refuse to go along with the official story, or a version of the official story, and still hold some doubt, would at least have a better vantage point - they would have something concrete.
It's not about evidence but more about openness. Evidence in itself isn't much, it has to be put forward and released in a manner which shows the character of the people and ideology involved.


The conspiracies are , I think, fueled more than anything by the shadowy and stupid steps of officials. And, perhaps, by the incompetence and commercial ways of the media.


edit: yeah, I agree, there still would be some people who would never believe, but their number would be, I presume, greatly reduced...

Well, Bush is a moron, so of course he's going to have trouble remembering the "where were you when..." moment of our generation. I'm sure he has no idea where he was when JFK was shot or the Challenger exploded. Probably drunk.
Doesn't mean there's a conspiracy.

Oh, and I'm getting real tired of the couple of right-wing tools here doing their little drive-by comments telling me what I think. I "think" a lot more deeply and often than both of you put together.

Bluecliff:

Yes. The tapes are on the net.

The idea that the conspiracy theories subsist on no evidence is not merely a matter of opinion. Unless you're an epistemological relativist, I can't see what basis you can have for claiming that it is. It's an empirical question. It's either true or it is false. If you know of any compelling evidence that 9/11 was a conspiracy, then, by all means, please reveal it.

It isn't really those who "still hold some doubt" I'm referring to (having some doubt, within reason, is perfectly sensible); it's those who are convinced of a conspiracy. In my experience, the only people who persist in espousing such ideas are either (sometimes willingly) ignorant of the facts (possibly because they've been intentionally misled by other conspiracy theorists), politically motivated by their ultra-left or ultra-right ideologies or are simply irrational or insane.

You state that the persistence of the conspiracy theories is "not about evidence" and that "evidence itself isn't much." Well, that is something we can certainly agree on.

This seems like pointless nitpicking..agree he fabricated a memory, intentionally or not.

What matters is he went on to attack the wrong country. The "surge", for instance - has cost 600 lives, and 60 billion dollars in 6 months.

err, I was asking you (in a roundabout sort of way though) if you could possibly send a link. Or post the video yourself.

if you want to convince those who are utterly certain then your damned to begin with.

Oh and I was talking about the persistence of conspiracy theories in the minds of 'common' people, who still have some doubt or believe that there is a real possibility of some kind of conspiracy scenario.

ANd that's the problem, and the more dangerous one I believe. It's you're prerogative (and a better tactic) to supply the people to whom the theorists are talking too with clear evidence of the manner of the attacks. A historical and scientific overview.
(

It's better to educate the church goer than to try to convince the priest, isn't it?

"We don't have all the facts about evolution. There is, however, overwhelming evidence in support of it and absolutely no compelling evidence in favour of any alternative theory."


roflbbqroflcopterwootbikelol (translated: bullcrap)

Bluecliff:

Since you mention the religious, according to a 2004 poll, 55% of Americans believe in literal biblical creationism. I sincerely doubt that this majority is due to any shadowiness or secretiveness on the part of the scientific community. The fact that creationism persists in the minds of "common people" is not a good reason to think there must be something to it or something we're "not being told" (just as the persistence of conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 in the minds of such people is not a good reason to think that the government is hiding something or that those theories are in any way rationally justified).

Incidentally, "If you want to convince those who are utterly certain then your damned to begin with" is something else with which I wholeheartedly agree; as Jonathan Swift said, "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into." This applies to both our subject and its aforementioned analog.

PS: Apologies for being dense -- here are the Pentagon videos: Citgo; Doubletree. (There's little of interest and they're not worth posting, in my opinion.)

Wow, this used to be such a nice little site to come to, now it's just filled with morons.

RIP VideoSift.

Drive by theo47???? On the contrary, You don't really seeing me doing that, do you?? Shit man, that would sort of imply that I duck in and out, here and there, like the other "couple of right-wing tools"....look just say qm and choggie, cause that's the reference....You can lump us both together conveniently, because you seem to see some tattoo or mark, that tells you which box we fit in-(God are you ever wrong)I .....Like you have commented before, when you attacked the very idea that I may have a formulated an opinion about you from your input here, ....I AM, formulating, each time, it is a dynamic thing....not static....it grows flows and evolves, like any healthy organism.....I would miss you if you were gone, just like I miss poor, ego-bound lilitu, since her little episode.....
Now, and again,..... Your sophomoric tendency, to place convenient labels on things, to make yourself comfortable that you are sure of your position on subjects you are not, and that most are not, qualified to comment upon, Make you the very Hit-and-run expert you say you are tired of

-Do you consider your filter to be a better qualification than my filter, his filter, or her, perception-bound, symbol-addicted filter??? The things you do have going for you is some pretty well-developed sarcasm and wit, and intelligence, which I must say, I enjoy most of the time.......Except in cases like this, when your inability to consider the possibilities of the plausable, or the probable, reduces to the "That which seems impossible, is,.... or improbable, is"...then quickly turning to derision and guffaws, as you assert the back-assward ways folks argue, or express themselves.

Things aren't always what they seem....skim milk masquerades as cream-


and Par, same thing, ya' seem to have believe that which makes you feel comfortable, and that which makes the world linear. Black is black, white is white-The arguments you use point-by-point, are based on that information that has been promulgated, from others who don't want to know.....by a bought and paid for media machine....similar to an audience member at a magic show, who needs only to be fooled, to have a good time..... And, as sure as rain in Malaysia, there will always be those, who deny anything they may experience with their senses, should THAT become an inconvenient reality......

"Wow, this used to be such a nice little site to come to, now it's just filled with morons.

RIP VideoSift."

Can anyone else imagine, a more moronic statement?...if it was sarcasm, it sucked-If sincere, then hope ya vomit blood on a date......

Choggie:

For around the ninth time in a row you've left a post that basically equates to "You're naive and believe everything you're told, whereas I'm enlightened and know the real truth." Yet again, however, you've simply presented no argument; yet again, you've cited no evidence whatsoever. It appears that you're nothing more than a narcissist and a charlatan.

So, once again, do you have any evidence that 9/11 was a conspiracy or do you not?

devils advocate here:

do you have evidence that it's not? open-mindedness works both ways.

That would be an attempt to shift the burden of proof. It's not my responsibility to prove that there wasn't a conspiracy. It's the conspiracy theorists' responsibility to prove that there was. Further, it's an example of the argumentum ad ignorantiam logical fallacy; analogously, I don't have any direct evidence that the tooth-fairy doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean that it's reasonable to believe that it does.

Well I really disagree with you there Par.
The burden of proof really works both ways.
We have two conflicting scenarios. Both have to give proof that theirs is the legit one.

The problem is that American's will believe whatever they are told by the major media and the government. They have been conditioned to fear their own government. They are like sheep. Quit believing everything that is spoon feed to you.

Meh... hate conspiracy theories. Wouldn't it be obvious that the time of taping would be in synch with the planes hitting?

Bluecliff:

No, we don't disagree. That both sides "have to give proof that theirs is the legit one" is exactly right. However, when the conspiracy theorists say "We think there was a conspiracy; so, what evidence do you have that we're wrong?" the responsibility of presenting evidence to support their claim is exactly what they're trying to avoid; they’re attempting to shift the burden of proof.

"I invented the internet"
Al Gore
Since he said it maybe he did invent the internet just like Bush lying about when he learned of the attacks?

" "I invented the internet"
Al Gore
Since he said it maybe he did invent the internet just like Bush lying about when he learned of the attacks?"


Gore was lying! I CREATED THE INTERNET! MUHAHAHA, NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW! BOW TO MY MAGNIFICENCE, AND TREMBLE AT MY GLOBAL WARMING DEVICE, MY ULEV AUTOMOBILE!!!

the burden is not to prove any goddamn thing, t'wood be nice, if all could be proved, and put to bed, unfortunately, that is a fantasy realm of desire-bound ego.....

The burden, of humans being and not reacting, is to call a spade a spade, with regard to what kind of world we all really want....ask any Iraqi, any yank, any Canadian, Shinto priest derelict, freeman, or Mennonite, they will all at their core, a resounding a ":No Bullshit" answer,...I am tired of the motherfucking bullshit, I want a world free of it, and full of meaning......

We don't have anywhere near closure, on the bullshit to come, and it will come in exponential waves......

I don't believe the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11.

But this video shows that GW Bush was lying his ass off (pandering) to this crowd and the media let him get away with it. If this video was filmed on 9/11 he "could" have mispoke, If this video was not filmed the day of 9/11 one can't use the excuse "he was caught up in the moment" and mispoke.

8:32 a.m.: Bush’s motorcade leaves The Colony Beach and Tennis Resort on Longboat Key, Florida for Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota.

8:46:26 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 impacts the north side of the North Tower (1 World Trade Center) of the WTC between the 94th and 98th floors. American Airlines Flight 11 was flying at a speed of 490 miles per hour (MPH).

8:47 a.m.: NYC Fire Battalion Chief Joe Pfeiffer from the 7th Battalion puts out an emergency call stating that American Airlines Flight 11 impacting the north side of the North Tower (1 World Trade Center) was no accident. The plane's impact was clearly a deliberate attack an intentional act of mass death and devastation.

As the small video crew (who shot the only video of American Airlines Flight 11 impacting the WTC – the fireman video) and firemen that had eye-witnessed the first plane hit the WTC were racing to the location, Chief Pfeiffer sounded red alerts over the radio and phone; specifically stating that what they witnessed was a "direct attack" and that the airliner was clearly being directed straight at the WTC and the incident was definitely not any kind of accident.

8:48 a.m.: The first news reports appear on TV and radio that a plane may have crashed into the WTC

8:51 a.m.: Bush arrives at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida for a photo op with 16 second graders. He is there to promote his administration's new bill on education.
___________________________

I think when one looks at the multitude of facts on the timeline of this infamous day, one see's an overwhelmingly incompitent government caught off guard, from the president on down.

There are enough conflicting stories from the government and our media that I think that the truth of that day has been lost in the dust, so to speek, from the confusion and of people trying to cover their asses.

if this timeline is off in anyway please let me know and I'd be happy to make adjustments.