My heart just dropped... There's no way they lived through that.
Hey MINK - You asked me why I got out?

MG: Glad your home

Thanks, joe.

I mean, I've seen some damn big ones before, but holy hell. That might as well have been a nuke.
I'm just trying to figure out where it came from - it almost looks like it came from the middle of the road - but burying that amount of ordinance in the road is quite a feat - and surely the soldiers/Marines would have noticed the fresh pavement/signs of recent roadwork.
Before you deploy you have to sit through a class on IEDs - how to recognize them and what to do.
Not fun. They (insurgents) may not be the best trained, but they are hella crafty. It used to be just a 155mm shell in a trash bag in a pile of rubble on the side of the road. From there they moved them to hanging on the back side of guard rails. Then they started to put them in culverts under the roads. When that got old, they would actually take out a section of curb, put in a shell, and form a new seamless curb around it. The point being is that anything can be an IED. And they have no regard for human life, so you aren't safe even if you're in the middle of a crowded town. That's when I was the most scared - on patrol and when the traffic gets so slow you have to walk along side of the HMMWV. (Yeah, memorare, I was fucking there. Not just Kuwait.) From there, it's extremely difficult to see if anyone around has a weapon. So not only I had to worry about getting my ass blown off, there was increased possibility of it getting shot off, too.

All in all, I'm just glad to have made it back in one piece, but it saddens me every time I see a clip like this.

*requeue

Re-queueing this video for one more try; last queued Tuesday, October 2nd, 2007 5:28pm PDT - requeue requested by submitter youdiejoe.

Any info on when this was taken?

from what I could find on the net, it happened on Sept. 2nd and was estimated to be a 3000lb VBIED

http://1vb-blacksheep.com/vets/tal/VBIED.wmv

this is a link to a much better copy of the video

when you look at the better copy, you can tell it comes from the trunk that is pulling over.

"Its getting safer" - George W. Bush.

Jaw meet floor. Holy shit!

I'm not sure if this is the same event, but the date and description could be a fit (Sept 2nd, the date on the video, was a Sunday):
Baghdad, Sept 2, (VOI) – Two Iraqi army soldiers were killed and eight others wounded in an attack with an explosive vehicle driven by a suicide bomber in the area of al-Taji, northwestern Baghdad, on Sunday, police said.
"The car bomb went off near a main gate of a camp used by the former Iraqi army as headquarters for military units," a police source, who preferred not to be named, told the independent news agency Voices of Iraq (VOI).
The Iraqi army forces sealed off the area and denied access to civilian vehicles and pedestrians, the source added.

It's probably a truck full of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. That stuff is ridiculously easy to get in large quantities.

Isn't that what McVeigh used in the Oklahoma bombing? The vid was unreal

Umm.. It appears so, but am I really the only person questioning if this should be discarded as snuff? I've always felt certain all of these side-of-the-road-IED-murdering-soldiers type videos fall under our definition of snuff. Right?

*blog

Nothing personal, ydj, but I really think this should be discarded.

This video is being sent to Sift Talk for discussion - blog requested by lucky760.

I am not a supporter of the war, but I do support our troops that are in harms way. With the level of non information coming out of Iraq, a video like this helps to remind people what is going on over there. If anything I should have added a *political tag as well as *worldaffairs

I don't agree that it's snuff, in that a video is intended to show the death of people for the visceral curiosity of humans.

I understand that lives were lost here, and I think that if anything this video shows the level of resolve the opposition force has in Iraq and what our military personnel are dealing with on a daily basis.

I understand your sentiment completely, however, the long and short of it is this specific video is still simply a brief clip of an enormous bomb likely killing a caravan full of soldiers. There are plenty of videos from within Iraq where we can see exactly what they're up against without actually illustrating any fatality.

If this were to be allowed, then it would set the precedent for any video (esp. on LiveLeak) to be allowed where we simply watch soldiers being killed (e.g., the countless other IED clips and enemy snipers shooting Americans from a distance or from a speeding car) because they all "remind people of what's going on over there" and "show the level of resolve of the opposition forces."

In addition of exemplifying your point, this video is a perfect example of death for visceral curiosity a.k.a. entertainment value. Again, there are plenty of videos that can get your message across without violating the "no snuff" guideline, which is precisely what this video is doing.

I'm gonna ask that this video be allowed to stay - Stuff like this does not appear on the news, and it's good for people to know that this shit happens on an almost daily basis.

Someone please * return this so that it can be a testament to what we have to go through.

Here are some examples of videos that demonstrate what our soldiers are going through without the thrilling fun of showing them get killed to pieces or that are more documentary/reporting/informative style and less "hey, watch these guys get blown to shit!" style:
http://www.videosift.com/video/US-Army-fight-with-insurgents-in-Fallujah-from-War-Tapes
http://www.videosift.com/video/Weapons-of-US-soldiers-in-Iraq-plagued-with-problems
http://www.videosift.com/video/IED-blows-up-road-in-middle-of-convoy-no-injuries
http://www.videosift.com/video/Jubilation-as-IED-misses-target-completely
http://www.videosift.com/video/I-get-blown-up-US-troops-and-their-up-armoured-Humvee-get-hit-by-IED-and-everyone-survives-nsfw-language
Etc, etc.

I'm with Lucky on this one. I won't call it, but Joe, I would think that discarding this would be the right thing to do. I feel leaving this on the sift is disrespectful to the men and women who lost there lives in this attack.

I'm waiting for more people to add their .02 worth before I do anything. It seems to have garnered quite a few votes and many of them are top level sifters... so lets keep it here in the talk section for now.

This should really be allowed to stay. The video is not glorifying death and only shows the reality of the situation in Iraq the troops face daily. You never see this on the news, where the Iraq war has been sanitized to the point of no return.

Doing more searching I have found the DOD press release about this incident, the short version is One Iraqi soldier was killed and two others wounded along with 2 civilians. No US forces where involved in this attack.

Here is the press release from the DOD:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
RELEASE No. 20070903-12
September 3, 2007

Iraqi Army stops car bomber from attacking bridge north
of Baghdad
Multi-National Division – Baghdad PAO

CAMP TAJI, Iraq – One Iraqi Army soldier was killed and two other Iraqi Army
troops and two civilians were wounded by an exploding vehicle-borne improvised
explosive device near a checkpoint in Taji, Iraq Sept. 2.

The suicide bomber detonated the VBIED at the checkpoint, after two
unsuccessful attempts to gain access to the bridge guarded by the troops.

The checkpoint was manned both by Iraqi Army troops from the 2nd
Brigade, 9th Iraqi Army Division (Mechanized) in conjunction with members of
the new Critical Infrastructure Security (CIS) unit. The CIS is made up of local
volunteers that were contracted by Coalition Forces and have been vetted by the
local Sheiks in the area.

The vehicle was carrying chicken waste to hide the munitions in the truck.
On the first approach to the checkpoint, the driver was stopped by the Iraqi
soldiers who did not allow his entry because he was not following proper
procedures.

In his effort to breach security of the checkpoint that allows access to a key
bridge, the driver claimed to be the cousin of a local area sheik—a reconciliation
leader that the Iraqi Army coordinates with for vetting legitimate associates – but
the Iraqi Army troops made the man take a U-turn and leave the area.

On a subsequent attempt, the Iraqi troops once again forced the man to turn
his vehicle around and leave the area.

On the third and final attempt, the truck attempted to pull over and
intermingle with an Iraqi Army convoy. Iraqi Army troops suspected a car bomb
and engaged the vehicle with small arms fire by the checkpoint after noticing the
driver was acting very erratically. The truck detonated.

Multi-National Division-Baghdad Soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 82nd Field
Artillery Regiment and the 1st Squadron, 7th Cavalry Regiment both of the 1st
Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, rushed to the scene and assisted
with securing the site and treating the wounded.

According to Lt. Col. Peter Andrysiak, deputy commanding officer, 1st BCT,
1st Cav. Div., the attack is the work of Al Qaeda operatives.

“This attack is just another example of Al Qaeda’s total disregard for innocent
lives whether it’s women and children or Iraqi Security Forces who have chosen
to selflessly defend their nation.” said Andrysiak.
“Due to the local populace’s recent successes in regard to reconciliation efforts that are uniting the people
here against insurgents and extremists, the attack proves that Al Qaeda is
becoming desperate. They have lost support and are seeking any avenue they
can to disrupt the efforts here that are fostering peace and will eventually mean
the end for organizations like Al Qaeda.”

Andrysiak added that the incident shows the increasing effectiveness of
the Iraqi Army and the benefits of working with local volunteers.

“Together they devised a system of checks and balances to prevent AQI
access to key areas and it worked,” he said. “These brave Iraqis saved critical
infrastructure and lives.”

The video is not glorifying death and only shows the reality of the situation in Iraq the troops face daily.

To be clear, I don't think glorification or reality is the point of issue, but the simple matter of whether or not this falls within the posting guidelines or if it violates the no snuff policy.

For the record, I personally find it very acceptable and would like to see all of these types of videos on the Sift. [In fact, my first sift (before I was familiar with the posting guidelines) was of US soldiers blowing away some insurgents setting up an IED, but it was immediately discarded.] My point of contention is merely for adherence to the site's posted rules and maintaining constant precedents.

Currently, all precedents designate that any short/simple clip of people dying, whether in Iraq or not, is defined as snuff and should be discarded. If this video becomes precedent, there will be nothing to prevent all the killings filmed by insurgents from also being allowed since those are exactly identical to this video. It's a slippery slope. (Very over-used phrase and I'm sorry for using it.)

It's really this last point about precedence that's most important here. If we allow some videos of fatality to stay, where do we draw the line? And who's responsibility is it to determine exactly which death videos are okay and which ones aren't? E.g., which of these videos should and should not be considered snuff?

alright, point taken... but if we put that bright white light on all videos then we will need to start yanking 9/11 videos and so on.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Amateur-Video-shot-on-September-11th-raw-footage
http://www.videosift.com/video/Loose-Change-Second-Edition-Recut
http://www.videosift.com/video/911-Flight-93-Footage-Censored-News-Coverage
http://www.videosift.com/video/Inside-Tower-1-During-Tower-2s-Collapse
http://www.videosift.com/video/What-We-Saw-Never-before-released-video-of-the-WTC-attacks
http://www.videosift.com/video/911-News-Footage-The-Ultimate-Con-trailer
http://www.videosift.com/video/911-original-footage-by-amateur-videographer-South-WTC-Tow
http://www.videosift.com/video/911-Pentagon-Crash-Dear-tin-foil-hat-crowd-please-shut-th

I think you're totally right, except with regard to 9/11, a Sift consensus collectively decided that videos of the historic/horrific events of that day should be accepted. I know it seems to contradict what I just said above, but that decision was made not only democratically by a group, but for a specific set of events, all black & white and no fuzzy gray area.

I think the rule exists basically so the Sift doesn't become a Faces of Death fest, attracting all LCD individuals looking for a cheap thrill via bloody gore and naked horniness. This is why the death content that is explicitly permitted is usually only a brief part of a much more lengthy intellectual discussion.

The video doesn't actually show dead bodies, it just shows the explosion. Similar videos of nuclear tests have been deemed "not snuff".

It should *stay, I agree with Farhad that stuff like this needs to get out there to the American public so we can all see what is really happening 'over there' as we sure as hell are not gonna see it on the evening news... also, like you guys are starting to realize, if we start pulling stuff like this, you are going to have to kiss your 9-11 vids goodbye, and I think just about everyone will argue that that would be a tragic loss of content, for any number of reasons...

If a group referendum was necessary to rule that 9-11 vids are okay then I am willing to hold a pow wow for the debate over Iraq videos and where to draw the line in regards to them, because frankly, the war, in many senses, has eclipsed that one day at least a hundred times over, and if we can't be a part of an alternative source of documentation and information, we are only complicit in the sanitization of its coverage.

Furthermore, I still stand by the definition that a snuff vid has to have been produced from the get go with the intention of capturing a death on camera, and in some way, profiting from it. Long shot, filmed by accident or to record massive shit going down (like 9-11) should not count in this category, and therefore should be allowed on this site.

PS I still await a repeal of the Zapruder ban... I will always put forth that it is not snuff... someday, I know y'all will come around

What glorious value does this have? There is a reason why this kind of crap isn't shown on the news, it's called respect. We don't need to see a massive explosion to see "what's really going on." War is hell. We all know this, we know people are dying over there. No news flash, no brilliant light of truth is being shed by this video. If you feel strongly about keeping it, fine, keep it. But don't go pulling this "It shows us what it's REALLY like over there." Because the truth comes just as clear with the names of the dead in your local news paper.

i am so completely 50/50 on this it is unbelieveable.

my heart is with gorgon about respect for the dead, let's face it... watching people die for entertainment at the end of a day's work is not good.

but my head says this isn't an "entertainment" site, this is a video site, and this here video is definitely a video and should be sifted.

i agree with lucky about the liveleak slippery slope, but there's a simpson's slippery slope too and that hasn't been stopped... and i dunno if we want to get into saying what is and isn't snuff/documentary, or saying "please don't post more simpsons it's pointless".

solutions? perhaps *death, and make it filtered out by default... then i would probably leave it filtered out and never see or upvote this kind of video unless i really wanted to. there's a big difference if you actually have to ASK for death rather than just seeing it when you thought it wouldn't be there.

I am with Mink on this; I am still 50/50. I spent much of the day trying to sort out whether I was for against this. I agree that having an iron set of rules makes running the site easier, but ultimately you have been relying on the community to police itself. I see no reason to stop. Although the video is borderline I could see allowing a video like this on a case by case basis, so long as their was a news report or some other write up to go with it. Just throwing the video out there for people to see without any background research does smack of snuff.

Finally I disagree with what GH has to say about it. The Vietnam war was brought into our living rooms every night and there were pictures of death and wounded American soldiers. It most certainly did serve to shine a light on what was going on over there which otherwise would not have hit home as hard coming from the newspaper. If they aren't showing this explosion on the nightly news, then they should.

To state the obvious this topic has struck a nerve. This is what I truly love about the Sift, open, civil discussion of topics.

I still believe that this video should stay, but I would also welcome a classification for videos of a "sensitive" nature to help people filter out having to deal with these post unless they wish to. *mature or *<insert your term here>

In and of itself I don't believe a *mature or *death flag is worthwhile. Liveleak and other sites also have a mature flag but that just makes them a haven to material that would to say the least be questionable here. If you were to ask me, relying on such a flag would be an invitation to some really tasteless and/or violent videos.

Not snuff.

Snuff. Discard. Why I don't upvote LiveLeak vids. They should have never been added as a host. Keep this shit over there.

WIKIPEDIA

The most common definition of a snuff film is of a motion picture showing the actual murder of a human being that is produced, perpetrated, and distributed solely for the purpose of profit. This definition thereby excludes recordings of murders caught by accident, and videotapes of actual murders that were never intended to be released as entertainment films (such as the videos and photos sometimes produced by serial killers like Leonard Lake as "trophies").

This will total eight cents from me, buuuut:

1) I don't think this qualifies as snuff. You can't even see any people.
2) And no hard feelings, Gorgon, but yes, I can use the excuse "It shows what's really going on" all I want. Someone please challenge me on that statement, and when they get bitch slapped with a "Have you ever been there? 'Cause I have.", It will be funny to see them stammer on their own half-words. I've yet to see a local newspaper that actually lists pictures and names of every single American that dies over there. Usually, it's just "8 Americans were killed today" or some non-specific journalistic dribble.
3) This video isn't to entertain, it's to inform. When the "news" reports of an explosion, they certainly never show anything like this. I want people to see what an explosion really looks like, so that way they have no room to bitch about the millions of dollars that we are spending to develop new armor and to equip our troops and vehicles with it. Everyone knows we aren't leaving anytime soon, so we might as well protect them as best as possible.


That's my eight cents.

Not snuff in this context. Anyone that would find this entertaining is sick anyhow. Hey I can appreciate you guys that want to respect the dead. If I was one of those unfortunate victims, I'd want the whole world to know. My .02 is for it to stay.

Hey MINK - You asked me why I got out?

Well I wanna know.

</offtopic>

America is not at war.
The Marine Corps is at war;
America is at the mall.

<offtopic>
Well, lemme start with the big ones:
I like being alive. My chances of staying that way are much higher when I'm not being shot at/mortared at/IED'd and such.
I wanted my own life.
Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in the USMC. Even today I was considering reenlisting. But my life wasn't mine. It was theirs. Sure, that's inherent with the job. It offers a lifestyle like no other place can offer.
I think that had there been a base closer to home (I was stationed almost 1,000 miles away) I might have stayed in. Not that I need to be close to home, but it would be nice to get away every now and then, without an expensive flight or long drive. It's just that being surrounded by a bunch of clones started to wear on me. That's why when I wasn't at work, I hardly ever went out, because I would just be surrounded by more Marines.

And the whole not being shot at thing.
</offtopic>

P.S. - ^That's an awesome photo.

My opinion might not carry much weight among veteran Sifters™ but I personally wouldn't categorize this as snuff. My best friend who was over in Iraq (though he wasn't a marine) for a year stopped by yesterday and we had a long talk (over a smoke) about his fond & not-so-fond experiences over there, among many other things concerning life. It basically parallels much of what MarineGunrock has already said. He went on many foot patrols, set up check points in the middle of no where, and has had many close calls; among everything else that such an experience entails (which I'm sure would easily fill a book)...He has hunks of surprisingly heavy, gnarled & twisted as if it were soft taffy; razor-sharp shrapnel (as if shaved to an edge) as a memento to prove it. Scary stuff & an eye-opener for sure.

I believe videos like this should be able to exist to enrich understanding & show the reality as mentioned, maybe for those who don't have a friend, or relative, or online acquaintance who's actually experienced it or is willing to wax poetic about it. There are many documentaries out there but the news in general is horribly inadequate for showing reality. Plus you don't actually see the deceased as it's being shown from the distant, detached perspective of a surveillance camera.

Sorry to burst your bubble, there, Animals, but that ain't no surveillance camera. The insurgents set up cameras to record this kind of stuff because they are the ones that get off on it.

The video should be here. It's important and real.

Gunrock, what kind of camera is it? I assume you know. I cant imagine you made that comment without knowing.

I've got some hostage beheading videos that I believe are "important and real", too. As well as some videos of stonings, dismemberings, hangings and other assorted atrocities that I think "need to get out there to the American public so we can all see what is really happening". Just because I think they are important and should be seen by everyone doesn't mean that VS is the appropriate place to display them. The question is not whether the video is important or whether it falls under the Wiki definition of snuff. The question is whether VS intended to be a community that embeds these types of videos, and I can only surmise that since it has always had a "no snuff" rule of some kind in effect, it doesn't. Videos that show death are considered snuff here, and VS is NOT the frickin' New York Times, so get off of any bullshit censorship wagons you may be on. The powers that be at VS decided long ago not to allow these types of vids, whatever you want to label them.

If we are going to have this f*cking conversation every time a f*cking vid like this shows up, then just change the damn rule. This IS a slippery slope and it is only going to get worse unless someone makes a goddamn decision and declares that this is allowed and changes the wording in the posting guidelines to reflect that, OR, declares that it isn't allowed and summarily redacts videos of this type without a frickin' ST pow-wow each and every time. If you put every damn issue in the hands of the community, you will just end up with the same sort of vague, trying-to-please-everyone, middle-ground crap that passes for a "no snuff" rule now. One person's snuff is another person's entertainment. Make a rule. Stand by it. This isn't LiveLeak.

set up cameras to record this kind of stuff because they are the ones that get off on it.

Then it is, by definition, snuff - filming of a death for entertainment purposes.

I think it should go, because as lucky points out, it will encourage stuff like this. In other words, even though this particular vid doesn't show a human being torn in half, it might as well have done so for the effect it has.


I've yet to see a local newspaper that actually lists pictures and names of every single American that dies over there.

It's not a newspaper, but the Newshour on PBS has a silent tribute to every soldier KIA at the end of their broadcast. I agree with gorgon that this does not tell us what's happening over there. There are many sources of information about what is happening, and random vids of people getting blown up is not one of them.

I'm surprised the Zapruder film would have been denied a place here, as it is clearly more than random violence. It's a historical document.

Okay if what gunrock said is true and this was not a surveillence or news camera then I have to say snuff. Also I can't believe someone posted the video jonny just linked. Please tell me that isn't the slippery slope in action.

My mistake, was under the impression it was automated/passively filmed. That information sorta changes things.

I think the rule about snuff videos has to be changed. Leave out the word snuff and replace it with something like violent death, bad taste or offensive. This is not snuff as most understand the definition. There is no snuff on video sites.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Yeah - I was under the impression this was surveilance as well. But if the camera was set up to observe the death of a bunch of people - I think it pushes it firmly into the snuff area. *discard and rest in peace.

Discarding this post - discard requested by member dag.

This is a surveillance cam and not an insurgent video of the event, I think MG was generalizing.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

You're right Eric - "snuff" is an appropriated term that we have redefined for use on VideoSift.

In the posting guidelines - we define it as "the explicit depiction of loss of human life displayed for entertainment"

I think this fits that definition.

Fletch is right, the wording needs changing in the guidelines, and all are correct when they say this does not qualify as snuff. Is not seeing an IED, going off, enough to paint a picture of what happens when the same goes off, with soldiers near? Same with Danny pearl viddy, and Sadaam's hanging...the knife against the throat, and the noose round the neck, combined with the news of the results, are enough to illicit a healthy discourse, without taking it to the faces of death level.....

What if we had some scenes of a cruise ship sinking fast, a high-res feed coming from a satellite, in real-time? Could we justify having THAT up here, with good conscience?

Im sorry im not seeing it. Where does it say who filmed it? Anyone?

By sift definition this is not snuff whomever may have filmed it.

(in which the explicit depiction of loss of human life is displayed for entertainment).

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

It's hard to say - but we have to make decisions on this one way or another - these debates can ramp up to the point that they become kind of fracturing. I think we'll err on the side of caution.

It seems that the debate is very defined with little interest in a middle ground, also the civility seems to be dropping from the discussion. As I said before healthy debate is why I enjoy being a part of the sift.

Lets move on.

OK

Am, frankly, a little disturbed that this was discarded given the course of the discussion and how the majority seems to have weighed in on the 'not snuff' side... but anyway, I move we have a formal Sift Talk debate on Iraq War Front Vids and which if them constitute snuff... because frankly, I am still of them mind that we do a disservice to the public by NOT showing them, and would be more than happy to civilly argue for their inclusion on this site. Anyone like to start it off? I have to be getting ready for the going out and getting on with my day in the real world.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Why are you disturbed raven? - the discussion had yays and nays and has been debated pretty thoroughly. However- I'm happy to discuss the broader issue. Why don't you (or someone) make a post on it?

eric and joe:

While I obviously can't offer proof of anything I can say this:
1) This is in the middle of nowhere
2) The camera is centered on the explosion
3) The only places in Iraq with cameras would be embassies and the such. Bases might gave gotten more advanced while I was there, but I've never seen one with a camera on it's gate.

I put my emphasis on two because it's all too convenient to have a security cam get footage that good.

MG, so why say it as if you know? Also Joe posted it and he says its a surveillance cam.

Lets let this video go for now, ok guys?

Maybe disturbed is the wrong word Dag... but I do seriously think we need to have a definitive discussion on the matter, hammer out some rules we can all agree on so this matter does not come up every time someone posts from liveleak... if no one else starts one up in the next day I will probably go ahead and do so, at the moment, however, I am swamped with work and school so it will have to wait another day or two.

It would be better policy to add a tag to this that people filter out by default, than to discard it.

jwray makes a sensible point, that combined with a minor teak or two in the guidelines regarding a succinct, semantic description of people dying on film, could make room for this documentation, whoever filmed it, and for what ever reason.

Mr. Zapruder did not stand there in Dealy Plaza with his super 8, hoping for a head shot that would put his family's name in the history books-

These men who died here, knew that it came with the territory, and the event that ended their lives, happened to be caught on film-we can learn from it, like we did from his footage-(oh and by the by, pretty freekin' clear from even THAT distorted only copy of K-man's assination, that one gunman dinna do it-)

Look man, stop all the fuss, and set some rules in stone-and don't use the goddamn word "SNUFF", in order to amend the rule-simple.

I am a bit late to this discussion, this should stay. We see a lot of explosionms like this in movies, TV shows, etc. This is real life!