*politics

Adding video to channels (Politics) - requested by NetRunner.

Sorry, are we meant to care for these suv making ass wipes.
Let them fail.
The US need robust forward thinking companies and new jobs, not these dinosaurs.
This piece of propaganda was obviously put together by the oil / car industry.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

There's some truth in this video - and if the big 3 failed - things would get a lot worse before they got better, but damn it - I give you the Escalade. Has ever a more wasteful, irresponsible piece of mechanical hubris been manufactured?

The big 3 screwed the pooch because they didn't learn the lesson of the 1970s gas crunch. You could say that they were just responding to customer demand for blingy SUVs - but so are crack dealers. It doesn't make it right to supply an immoral product. Yes, I think Hummers and Grand Cherokees are immoral.

I'd like to see Obama take about 100 billion or so and invest it in high speed and light urban rail instead. Time for America to get over the automobile.

(yes, I take the bus to work so I get to be a preachy bastard)

Once again, this exploitation of disaster for corporate gain--free money for the CEOs--gives Bush the excuse he needs to use the bailout of the automakers as collateral to get the Dems. to ratify a free trade deal with Colombia... brokered by none other than our very own Rahm Emmanuel.

Just when you thought democracy couldn't get decimated any further.. or that the cynicism couldn't rise any higher... yet so typical of the way Washington seems to work, the place where all the wealthy line up at the trough to feed on the taxpayers' expense.

Actually its the reverse, the Democrats are pushing for an auto industry bail out, and the republicans are resisting claiming rightly that the government is not responsible for the failures of the auto makers.

The auto makers did not learn their lesson as Dag said correctly, the 1970s crunch saw the auto industry push for high protectionism along the age of the gas guzzlers to continue for several years. It has time and time again failed to be a technological and innovation leader in the free market.

The companies should not be rewarded for being shit at what they are supposed to do, you can't simply bailout companies all the damn time, this is why nationalized airlines fail consistently.

However its a difficult decision, the auto makers do employ alot of people, but I believe a solution lies within the market to alleviate the crisis, either by merger or buyout by other companies.

I think the government should be in the business of allowing successful companies (Toyota, Honda, which also produce in the US now) flourish not be tied down to fulfill the needs of failures (the big 3).

Give them $25 billion or cost $156 billion later? So where's the capital behind this $25 billion? Or are we talking about just printing it out based on nothing, as usual? And I agree that the U.S. auto industry doesn't need to be bailed out just to give us more gas guzzlers.

You international folks aren't privy to our stupid commercials, so let me share one with you. It's for GM or Chrysler, and it features voice-over by Jeff Bridges. In it, we see a mid-sized SUV and Jeff is talking about how green the thing is and at the end, they reveal the big gun: 27 mpg.

I swear, they were bragging about 27 mpg.

Fuck that! Let them fail. Sure, it may be tough but it'll teach them in a way that a bailout never will.

Part of me wishes that GM would hire Lee Iacocca to show them how the hell to run an automaker down in the slumps. (Yes, I know this wont happen)

The other part of me would like to see GM go under as punishment for poor predictions of the market and the happy-go-lucky model of pumping out inefficiency for the past half decade. To see that SUV/Truck sales were skyrocketing again with petrol prices plummeting in this country made me sad. We have not only forgotten about the 1970s but we have also forgotten about 3 fucking months ago. We need a good swift kick in the ass.

Toyota might be having less *profit* this year but they are still making a profit and are sitting on a fat wad of cash. The correctly gambled about hybrids and efficiency by starting planning a decade ago. They put in the hard work to earn our money with tighter petrol budgets and for GM to be rewarded for the exact opposite makes my heart sink.

I don't feel sorry for the companies, not the least bit. I do feel for all employees but it's the companies responsibility to adapt and survive. If they can't, too bad for them.

Some asian and european car companies have small and efficient cars that appeal more to me if I were to buy a car. I would just be worried about SUVs totally mangle my the car if I would happen to crash with one of them.
I hate how they are huge and bloated, endangering us in smaller cars and blocks my view just as good as any truck.

>> ^shuac:
You international folks aren't privy to our stupid commercials, so let me share one with you. It's for GM or Chrysler, and it features voice-over by Jeff Bridges. In it, we see a mid-sized SUV and Jeff is talking about how green the thing is and at the end, they reveal the big gun: 27 mpg.

LOL! Ford always uses Kiefer Sutherland.

Bah, same shit on this side of the atlantic.

*fear

Adding video to channels (Fear) - requested by Sarzy.

I won't miss Virginia and Minnesota.

One thing to think about (and not agreeing with a bailout) but if you add up all the tax you would collect from the big 3 and all of the employees in their employ over the course of a year it would be in the billions. So the argument is if they fail the government would lose those billions anyway. Also if this crisis has shown us anything its the "ripple" affect is real. What ever happens to American (and its shitty worthless car companies) will in fact hurt the rest of the world. It sucks but its true.

Sorry, but the big 3 can go suck an egg. America is a Capitalist country. If someone else does it better, then you either adapt or die. They failed to adapt, now they can die and let someone else take their place. Yes, there will be hard times for a little while, but we'll recover like we always do, and along the way we'll learn more and better lessons than the ones we learned while having a triopoly.

Evolution is a harsh mistress.

This is coming from someone with relatives in the auto industry. My cousin is a mechanical engineer for GM, who supplies parts to companies worldwide. She'll find another job. The other companies will find other suppliers.

just so everyone knows... this is complete horseshit. Sales of these vehicles are down for a REASON. too many brands with too many crap models, these 3 companies are too big to be competitive and they need to go the way of the dinosaur to make room for more competent and FORWARD THINKING manufacturers.

Let it Burn! That did not scare me in the least bit. Because without their market influence, and buyout power it gives america the oppurtunity to once again lead the world in the auto industry. By being able to develop and manufacture CHEAP, enviornmentaly friendly alternatives to transport, and being able to put them in the hands of consumers within months. The technology exists, It's the auto companies that suppress it from being available. Yeah people are not buying a bloated sedan or suv for 30,000 Because everyone's broke. I bet they would buy a car that costs 2,000 and dosen't use a drop of gasoline. These technologies have already been developed, All that's left is for the dinosaurs to die off so that we can evolve with our world. (damn that other guy just used the dinosaur analogy)!.....and the evolving bit....damn it

Tags for this video have been changed from 'cars automobiles gm ford' to 'cars, automobiles, gm, ford' - edited by lavoll

Bailouts = Corporate WELFARE.

Say NO. If they can't compete in a FREE AND FAIR market, then they deserve to fail.

Here is the problem. The US did not participate in a true open free and fair economic model. Still, with government protections on many key industries, many are STILL failing. They expected government bailout. Rather than innovate, they pushed to continue focusing on gas guzzling vehicles. Too bad. Japan kicked your ass USA. They were simply smarter and more innovative.

Time to rethink the business model Go bankrupt. Restructure, and come back with a more open mind.

In reply to this comment by Farhad2000:
Actually its the reverse, the Democrats are pushing for an auto industry bail out, and the republicans are resisting claiming rightly that the government is not responsible for the failures of the auto makers.

If you re-read what I wrote, you'll see that that is what I said. The Bush administration can use the Democrats support of the bailout as collateral to push through its own agenda. I think we're gonna seem some administrative "horse-trading" as a result of this calamity.

I agree with the rest of your comment.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

*promote for the discussion.

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, November 17th, 2008 6:32am PST - promote requested by dag.

Will letting the big 3 fall lead to smaller operations with progressive ideas and technology being able to step up and shine? I'd say it opens up the doors. From what I know, the big 3 have been used as leverage by big oil to swallow up the small companies with big plans in alternative fuel.

Maybe we'll feel it in the bowels, but nothing a good case of capitalistic diarrhea won't fix. Just remember to wipe front to back.

This video fails to mention that Toyota, Honda, Nissan as well as some German auto makers all have factories here in the US and they are doing very well. They, however, make fuel sensible cars that have a much higher reliability and much better resale value.

I, for one, would like to see a massive shake-up in the "Big 3". Flush out some of those highly overpaid executives and their multi-million dollar bonuses.

Sadly, there will be some people out of jobs and some pensions will be lost, but those money grubbing execs are the ones to blame for this. Why is it the taxpayer's responsibility to fix this mess they created? Where were the millionaire execs when I lost my job and almost lost my house? Oh, that's right, they were golfing.

Interesting discussion, but this was not a video. It was a poorly animated text from a propaganda leaflet.

This does not deserve to be sifted.

I will upvote for the discussion, not for the video.

Absolutely hate this bail out mentality. Once a company/industry gets big enough it can apparently stop caring about whether it's making sound decisions anymore as it'll just get bailed out if it's about to collapse.

The auto industry has had AMPLE time to change. AMPLE time to develop and build green cars that we actually want to buy.

But have they? No.

So... f*ck em.

I guess you could give them money on the huge proviso that it ONLY be used to develop and build alternative fuel/electric cars. All finances must be fully reported, cars must be available to buy in a short timeframe etc.

Do NOT give them money just because the do this crying 'oh, look at how many people will be out of work' crap. If you did this all the time there'd still be horse drawn cart manufacturers making carts that no one wants to buy because they keep being bailed out.

Maybe they could ask Big Oil for a loan?

There's some truth in these claims, but let us not be persuaded by fear. Has no one noticed this video was posted by GM? Companies that aren't sustainable will go out of business. GM has been struggling for years. This is not news.

I've had my Toyota since a month after the WTC attacks, and I've never had to take it in for repairs. My friend just bought a Ford Mustang last year and has already taken it in for a major repair.

As this industry suffers a collapse, others will take its place - possibly smarter American auto manufacturers? As people lose their jobs, they will find employment in other industries. We can't expect an industry to always be profitable and on top. Sometimes they cannot remain sustainable, and disappear. Here's an example: trains. When's the last time you (Americans) opted to take a train instead of flying or driving? Not often enough to keep that industry profitable, and this was the industry that helped build this country.

No bailouts. We need to stop.

I was listening to CNN on the way home from work and they did a story on this video. It is an officially produced video from GM. CNN was playing it directly from GM's Youtube channel.

That fact adds a whole lot of perspective to this discussion.

Great catch, blankfist.

I've owned a Toyota, a Ford and a Honda in my lifetime. Guess which of the 3 needed repair on a monthly basis. The Toyota truck lasted me 10 years, was stolen twice and ran great until the day it was gutted by thieves. The big 3 need to take a lesson from Japan, and begin to produce reliable, inexpensive, easy to repair, fuel efficient vehicles.

The numbers in this video are not impressive anyway. The Big 3 have been assembling garbage automobiles for decades, and people finally realized they were getting ripped off. Their deadline to move towards quality is long overdue (the gas crisis was the straw that broke.... the...gas guzzler's tow hitch?). This is supported by the fact that Chrysler, the least affected by escalating fuel prices, was the first to run into trouble - because of their long-standing tradition of poor quality. Same thing happened with Jaguar and Land Rover: poor quality - I don't mean initial quality (they ARE comfy at first)... I'm talking about holding value - overall longterm quality (ie, answering "No" to the question: "Will I be embarrassed to drive this car in 10 years?").

They need to learn how to design and assemble the damn thing correctly the first time, so the consumer isn't pissed off every time they need to replace something, even if it's the small shit: window motor, radiator fan, dashboard backlight and/or the gauges it illuminates, water pump, fuel pump, or some $300 A/C flap thingamajigger that controls air flow between vents which remains working yet makes a terribly irritating noise lasting 32 seconds every time you start or stop the engine.
Clearly, I have digressed, and have absolutely no experience with such matters anyway.

And so it was that with the rise of globalization (and fall of the dollar), foreign companies opened up shop here...
Take for example BMW's impact in Greenville, South Carolina: 23,050 jobs paying $1.2 billion, etc. (source) from one such plant. Where's BMW's whining video?? Where's BMW's bailout?? They don't fucking need one because they do quality work - much like Honda, Nissan, Toyota and all other brands who are devouring Big 3's piece of the pie - and rightfully so.

I recently enjoyed an article about how American car companies can't lease cars anymore because they don't hold their value - when people turned their leases in, the company was stuck with a depreciated piece of shit and lost money by the truckload (no pun intended). So now they only sell them (or lack thereof), sticking the consumer with the piece of shit in 3-5 years, who subsequently will purchase a different brand the next time around - one that will not only run forever (provided they keep the oil changed), but the A/C and power windows will too.

Imagine that: Bush actually got it right when he told them to learn how to compete.
In short, we are witnessing the evolution of an industry in the face of capitalism, the excitement and effectiveness of which will be ruined by a bailout. Sorry for ranting.


And remember - if you see a car approaching with a foglight out, it's made by GM.

I'm still up in the air about the bailout. I'm well aware that this one is dividing down party lines, and that's always what makes me suspicious about things like this.

The bailout for the Financial industry was called the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP). It was intended to buy, well, Troubled Assets from financial institutions, and now Paulson and the Bushies are saying, $350 billion already spent, "oops, let's try buying stock instead"...which liberals like Paul Krugman had been saying from the beginning.

What pissed me off about that whole mess was that Democrats didn't even try to push Krugman's plan, they just acquiesced to the Bushian demands for $700bn, no strings attached.

What Paulson seems to have done is handed the cash over to his friends on Wall Street, and placed no conditions on the use of the money, or the management structure of the recipients.

It's the same old Bush strategy -- execute Big Govermnent intervention as poorly as possible to try to sour people on the very concept, in the hopes that it drives people into the waiting arms of the "conservative" Republican party, and their radical socialist agendas to redistribute wealth from the middle class to the top .5%. Joe the Plumber^TM is a poster-boy for what "success" looks like for these asshats.

So here's my deal. GM sucks, the Escalade wasn't really offensive to me, what was offensive was that GM's first foray into Hybrids was to add 2-3mpg to their SUV's, not to try up the mpg of their small cars into a Prius-like 45mpg. They had a working electric car, and they killed it, and now they want to make a hybrid for $40,000 called the Volt and say "see, we're modern".

That said, they employ 3 million people directly, and countless millions more via their suppliers. I don't want those people unemployed. I want GM to survive, even if it takes taxpayer support -- but I want Wagoner and Lutz's heads on lances. Failing that, I want them fired without benefit, and stocks & options confiscated. Same goes for anyone whose fingerprints are on the killing of the electric cars.

So here's what I want Democrats to do: force GM into Chapter 11-style restructuring, but use taxpayer money to make sure they keep operating throughout and don't let them slip into outright liquidation. No golden parachutes, no shareholder dividends, no bonuses and no retention at the executive level.

Then, we take the other $350 billion and do across-the-board single-payer universal healthcare, so GM, Ford and Chrysler don't have to worry about healthcare benefits for their employees anymore.

If the Republicans go into a froth, and fillibuster it, let 'em. We'll just pass it in January to the loving applause of the entire Great Lakes region, and Indiana and Ohio will both stay blue states for the forseeable future.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

^Don't forget that the auto unions were large contributors to the Democrats and Obama. I don't think letting them go into chapter 11 would be an option.

Around the time of the financial bailout a lot of people pointed and said "this is why we need government regulation" and "the free market doesn't work." Bullshit. Let those morons go under and see if anyone who's left standing will make the same irresponsible decisions. You're far more likely to make good decisions if you're held accountable for them.

While the collapse of the big 3 would certainly hit hard, some of the claims in this video don't seem to hold water. They mention parts and material suppliers as well as dealership employees losing their jobs. The faulty logic is the assertions that people who buy American cars now won't buy cars at all if there's no Ford, GM or Chevy. That's not likely, of course. If you need a car, you're going to have to buy something.

Parts and material suppliers can recover at least some of their business with the remaining manufacturers, who will see sales increases as people 'migrate' from American cars. Likewise, dealerships can start selling other brands. If I owned a Ford dealership, you could be damn sure I'd at least be looking into adding a more stable line of cars to my product line.

>> ^honkeytonk73:
Say NO. If they can't compete in a FREE AND FAIR market, then they deserve to fail.

I wanted to point out that it's not even a free and fair market; We impose tariffs on foreign automakers, raising their cost to help keep our cars competitive. These no-talent ass clowns can't even compete in a fixed market.

change we can believe in.

the US is already 50% of the way to the USSR. come on America we can get there if we try. Yes we can!

>> ^Trancecoach:
In reply to this comment by Farhad2000:
If you re-read what I wrote, you'll see that that is what I said.

You are right I misinterpreted what you wrote.

These numbers are full of conflation and misdirection. They want you to imagine that the "big 3" equal the US auto industry. As others have said above, that's a complete falsehood. So all "auto industry = $X" claims above should be halved, at least. Second, it's not like the money spent on theirs cars will just magically disappear if they go under. Not at all, it will just go elsewhere in the economy. And where that money goes, so also go new jobs for those laid off. Yes, Michigan would be terribly hurt, but them's the breaks sometimes. I'd rather spend $5 billion to help re-employ those workers elsewhere, than $25 to keep them working for failing companies.

And let's not leave out the UAW union. Their greedy contract negotiations are another key piece to why the "big 3" are failing. Things like "Job Banks" that force the automakers to keep fired workers on 90% pay are insane. This has fixed labor costs for those automakers and helped to put them in the bind they're in. This lock-in of their labor costs is part of why it made more sense for them to keep pumping out SUVs with rising gas costs, than to re-tool or cut back production.

Change hurts, but this path is not sustainable and having the government take on another $25 billion in debt is only going to deepen and prolong the pain by causing either inflation or increased tax burden down the road (to pay the interest). Things must change. Let's rip the band-aid off and stop mortgaging our future for some vain hope of fixing things now.

NO MORE BAILOUTS! STOP SCREWING UP THE ECONOMY!!!

>> ^dag:
There's some truth in this video - and if the big 3 failed - things would get a lot worse before they got better, but damn it - I give you the Escalade. Has ever a more wasteful, irresponsible piece of mechanical hubris been manufactured?
The big 3 screwed the pooch because they didn't learn the lesson of the 1970s gas crunch. You could say that they were just responding to customer demand for blingy SUVs - but so are crack dealers. It doesn't make it right to supply an immoral product. Yes, I think Hummers and Grand Cherokees are immoral.
I'd like to see Obama take about 100 billion or so and invest it in high speed and light urban rail instead. Time for America to get over the automobile.
(yes, I take the bus to work so I get to be a preachy bastard)


Well, you can't argue with group think. I personally don't agree with gas consumption being the reason for the "big 3" doing poorly. All of them offer cheap, gas economical vehicles. Even during that "1970s gas crunch" my father had a Ford Fiesta, because, well, Ford offered it as an option. I think those manufacturers make shit cars, and that's why they are suffering.

That aside, why would it be okay for Obama to take 100 billion more of our tax dollars to invest it in anything, let alone a horrible high speed rail system? You say urban, so I assume you mean it would be a fund only available for the cities, and therefore I assume you figure it fair for our government to forcefully take money from all citizens, even those in the fly over states who won't benefit from such a tax hijacking, and distribute the money to the larger cities to fund a train system that so far no private investor has found a way to make profitable (else there would be rail systems all over this country). Boy, do I disagree with you there.

In California they passed a terrible proposition to fund a highspeed rail system from San Diego to San Fran. It's a multi-billion dollar initiative that was forced upon tax payers thanks to a majority vote. It's a worthless piece of legislation because they don't even know if the billions they are allocating will be able to finish the project. It will never make its money back, and therefore never be worth the large cost. If it was A PRIVATE CAPITALIST WOULD'VE MADE IT ALREADY! But, why have the private sector invest their money when we can pay for it?

I think those who vote up our taxes for bullshit like this should pay for it. My not so humble opinion. There, I said my peace. I will now immediately hop off of my soapbox.

>> ^dag:
^Don't forget that the auto unions were large contributors to the Democrats and Obama. I don't think letting them go into chapter 11 would be an option.


Haven't forgotten.

The way I understand it, under Chapter 11 they would keep operating. There'd be a big negotiation about how to reorganize the company, but they'd be forced to get new leadership. There probably would be layoffs at lower levels too, but it wouldn't be like GM suddenly closing its doors, which we're on track to see happen in a few months if things don't change.

Normal Chapter 11 bankruptcy probably wouldn't work, due to the credit crunch -- nobody's willing to loan GM (or anyone else) billions for them to keep operating while settling debts with creditors. Without that, they'd do Chapter 7 bankruptcy, where they cease to exist as a corporate entity and sell off their assets to recoup what they can to pay off creditors.

I don't think having GM go kaput like that would be a good idea right now.

But I'm just parroting my understanding of what I've read from people with PhD's in this topic.

Here's a good article from The New Republic that gives the topic a good shake: http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4893b49-36df-4784-9859-2dfa3a3211bf

>> ^dag:
There's some truth in this video - and if the big 3 failed - things would get a lot worse before they got better, but damn it - I give you the Escalade. Has ever a more wasteful, irresponsible piece of mechanical hubris been manufactured?
The big 3 screwed the pooch because they didn't learn the lesson of the 1970s gas crunch. You could say that they were just responding to customer demand for blingy SUVs - but so are crack dealers. It doesn't make it right to supply an immoral product. Yes, I think Hummers and Grand Cherokees are immoral.
I'd like to see Obama take about 100 billion or so and invest it in high speed and light urban rail instead. Time for America to get over the automobile.
(yes, I take the bus to work so I get to be a preachy bastard)


I read your post as saying "Id like to see obama invest 100 billion dollars in light speed..."

And I thought, Tesla would be proud!

Please note that Jack & Suzy Welch (who just might know a bit about this stuff) recommend letting them go into bankruptcy as the best path forward.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_48/b4110000545461.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_top+story

>> ^spoco2:
I guess you could give them money on the huge proviso that it ONLY be used to develop and build alternative fuel/electric cars. All finances must be fully reported, cars must be available to buy in a short timeframe etc.


I think this is the wisest solution.

The concept of simply slashing at the very least 1 million jobs, not including the vast amount of jobs that rely on the US auto industry, is not something to take lightly.

The entire midwest could be tossed into a bleak nightmare world, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Especially since 90% of my family works either at one of the big-3, or for a supplier.

Where are these people supposed to go find work? What other industry could all these people look toward? Are we just gonna tell all these people "hey, WalMart and McDonalds are hiring!"

I'm completely torn on this. I do NOT want to subsidize these bloated and outdated giants, but I also don't want to force millions more people onto welfare, meanwhile completely throwing away our entire automotive industry for possibly our lifetimes?


Spoco is correct.

>> ^blankfist:
distribute the money to the larger cities to fund a train system that so far no private investor has found a way to make profitable (else there would be rail systems all over this country).

Nah.

Walk around in downtown Los Angeles, or downtown Detroit and you'll notice dead, rusted-over traintracks embedded in the streets.

At one point in time, most major cities had profitable, reliable and usable mass transit train systems. I don't want to start a history lesson here, but as the story goes; the Big-3 bought up all the rail and the companies that operated them, and demolished it all to prop up their new congolmerates.


>> ^blankfist:In California they passed a terrible proposition to fund a highspeed rail system from San Diego to San Fran.

Actually, WE passed it, with smiles on our faces.

And everyone I know, up and down this coast, is very excited about this. Which is precisely why we voted for it (I thought you were a left-coaster blanky?) And just because its funded by taxpayer revenue, doesn't mean small communities won't benefit from it. I mean, I don't use every bridge in some podunk town that my tax money paid for, but I'm not crying about it. Bridges, trains, roads, schools, etc etc etc, benefit everyone. If not directly, then so be it. That's how shiz werkz.

The idea of taking a 200+mph train, only 2 hours, from LA to the Bay Area is unfunkingbelievablyawesome to me. To not have to waste so much gas and time driving the 7 hour trek, or take a horribly wasteful plane ride (also too expensive, then with the take-off-your-shoes-cant-bring-water-aboard nonsense) is very exciting.

>> ^volumptuous:
>> ^spoco2:
Spoco is correct.

The sooner everyone can just work that out, the better off we'll all be.

I say give the money to whoever kissed the politicians asses the most, to those who lined their pockets in order to make the senate a house of millionaires !!

The day shitheads stop driving around with cell phones glued to their ears will be the day that my 4.5 ton Suburban Armored Family Transport is immoral. Until then, it's all the better to run over their non-paying-attention asses with. Driving is THE most dangerous thing any of us (typical people) do. Until everyone agrees about what doing that safely means, I'm driving a really large, really heavy truck, and doing so defensively and safely.

>> ^deathcow:
I say give the money to whoever kissed the politicians asses the most, to those who lined their pockets in order to make the senate a house of millionaires !!


hell yeah, a system I can get behind.

by the way guys, you realize I'm a government representative right? my coworkers laugh pretty hard at everyone arguing against my satirical "free market" "freedom" comments here.

stuff like this is what pays my bills. more money flowing through my hands, more opportunity to skim a little off the top. thanks for the re-election, btw.

>> ^nadabu:
Please note that Jack & Suzy Welch (who just might know a bit about this stuff) recommend letting them go into bankruptcy as the best path forward.
http://www.businessweek.com
/magazine/content/08_48/b4110000545461.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_top+story


Oddly enough, they're suggesting the same thing I was: a government-financed Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Not so sure I like the idea of GM and Chrysler merging, but they may as well start figuring out what to do with Chrysler, since I bet they're in some pretty bad shape too (worse cars than GM, and very low international sales).

All those numbers, and all they had to say was "losses would be comparable to a little while longer in Iraq."

I have to say though, my 14-year old Ford runs great and spends almost no time in the shop. New tires and a brake tune-up for inspection are the only times it's been in for more than 5 years (and to be honest I can't remember anything before that). It is solid and tough, even after some unfortunate mistakes it has endured over the years (think dry radiator... oops). ~200k miles. My brother's mustang went to ~300k before being retired.

The Chevy I had before it was another matter. Everything that could fail, did: transmission, cooling, electrical, suspension, exhaust, power steering, fuel injection...

My sneaky-Obama hunch is that he supports a bailout of the industry in order to control the re-formation of their brands over the next four years.

Otherwise I see no strong counter to the 'let them file for Chapter 11' argument.

(under chapter 11 bankruptcy any of these companies will have 18 months of independent structural review and remodeling while they still employ folks and crank out products on the government's dime)