If people who see it daily call it a heart beat, then clearly reading a book is better, because you can't get a heart beat without a heart, and a valveless, chamberless tube that doesn't pump isn't a heart. If you look at a straw day in and day out and you start to see it as a heart, actually seeing it is worse. If you go to school and say you see the heart at 6 weeks, you fail.

Jebus. Double negative and heart best? Are you drunk?

I do think +-90% of them know, 10% believe they hear a heart beat because they can now detect a faint nerve signal, but no heart. That 10% are fooling themselves to avoid contradicting their beliefs with medical fact.

What bubble? Did I say they didn't? That doesn't make them doctors. Lab techs do the same...mri techs, even x-Ray techs in some places. Would you let a tech determine your treatment plan, or even diagnose you without a real doctor involved? They aren't even nurses, they know how to run the machine and spot certain results for further investigation/treatment. The doctors review and often edit the reports. If a report of a 6 week pregnancy talked about the heart, that tech would be let go for incompetence. There is no heart.

Dumb fuck, you asked me how many I've talked to. I answered, with an explanation of why I’ve met many. Now you act like I brought it up to say I know some, so I am one?! Are you on meth?

Mom worked at Texas Children's hospital and Methodist hospital in Houston, so yes, those specialists and many many many more, and being curious I asked them lots of questions.

Because my mom worked at a childrens hospital means I knew sonographers and ultrasound techs, there's a difference, which was your question. Jesus, you're like Ritalin kid from smoking aces....to yourself you're fighting this amazing fight with spinning kicks and flips so amazing it gets you hard, but to everyone else you're flailing wildly and are just annoying, not a dangerous opponent to be feared or respected.

I'm from Texas. I support Abortion. No contraceptive is 100% effective, not even if you combine them. If you don't understand that, study how percentages work.

Secondly, kids are hormonally driven creatures. They are literally under the influence of natural chemicals driving them to procreate.

Not every school or parent teaches them about contraceptives. In fact, you will find most 'Christians" only support abstinence. This is the equivalent of telling a chemically dependent addict to "Just Say No!" How well did that work in the drug war back in the day? (Hint: However, despite DARE's bold claims, research has shown that the program has failed spectacularly.)

Third, the people who are most affected by this new law are the people that can least afford the better contraceptives or having a child in a non-stable family environment. This won't bother a middle class or rich family at all, they can just send the kid off to an "aunt" in another state until the issue is resolved. Those kids from poor families will just be forced to have the kid and likely it will ruin their lives. This doesn't even take into account that the new law doesn't have ANY exceptions for rape or incest.

Fourth, the USA was founded on religious freedom. In other words, you get to believe what you want and others get to do the same. This means that if a religious person tells another person that something they are doing is forbidden due to morality contained in their religion, that other person can tell you to fuck right off. Church and State are supposed to be separate, but the Christian right think they should be able to legislate their religious ideas on others. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

I'm nominally a conservative. Sadly that means that I get lumped in with you ultra far right wackos that want to turn the USA into a religious state like Iran or Afghanistan. I'm not leaving my home state because some religious nut jobs think it is OK to kill adults by lethal injection but that it is BAD to kill some cells that are multiplying.

Btw, the cardiac activity detected on ultrasound at six weeks is not a true heartbeat. It results from electrical activity, but the valves of the heart have not yet formed. And the sound does not indicate the pregnancy is viable. Women typically don't notice they are pregnant until they miss a period. So if they are unlucky, they may already be close to four weeks pregnant. That leaves them two weeks to confirm it with a doctor, since home tests are not 100%, get together money for the abortion, find a clinic, and schedule an appointment that falls within the remaining time period. Since this law will cause even more clinics to close in Texas, you can add travel and patient backlog to the time. A teen could do everything right and still miss out on the lottery for an appointment, dramatically changing their life for years.

But at least some smug religious person can sip their coffee and be proud they enforced their morality on some evil women that dared sleep around out of wedlock.

Now it's not so easy.

Even TX recognizes women can terminate a pregnancy. They just decided to game the system to make it difficult to obtain in TX.

It's not murder.

But - in your mind - if mother and daughter drive to another state, one of them have the procedure, then returned, the daughter and mother, are now murderers. TX can execute them. If the doctor and staff that performed the termination are known and enter TX they are murderers also. They can be killed by the state, too.

Nope. Not that easy.

Because it is not murder.

Let this guy make that case: https://tinyurl.com/ma4sjz3v

Thanks for your honesty. And responding. So many just spout and run out.

Um, no. Leaving if you're unhappy you lost a political fight or election is absolutely not how democracies work. If it was, why aren't Republicans all moving right now?

No, they didn't. Being Christian doesn't equate to wanting to outlaw abortion. Most Americans are Christian, and a vast majority say they want abortion to be legal when asked. You're logic fails to recognize that some Christians don't believe in forcing their beliefs on others, and many only kind of believe, only when it's convenient, and limiting their options could feasibly hurt them.

No contraception is perfect, lack of sex ed in Texas means many don't even know how pregnancy works before being sexually active. Also I haven't heard of exceptions for rape or incest. These people have no option to use contraception, which fails far too often.
Also, I believe no person should be forced to be an unwilling biological life support system for another, certainly not for just a potential human, absolutely not children under any circumstances.


No, Shit Sherlock, it is not how it works in most of the world, certainly not in the developed world, are you under the impression that abortions only happen in America? Do you think people will accept sex only to procreate?
Access to multiple methods of terminating unwanted pregnancy are how it works across the world, because abstinence is insanely unrealistic and there's no even near perfect birth control without terminations when the main methods fail, which happens between .1% for the implant (the best, but with restrictions, and side effects and problems with having it implanted for 3 years) and >27% for the contraceptive sponge in women who've had a child ...typical methods like the pill fails 7%, condoms 13%, diaphragms 17%, many others in the >20% range. None of those numbers are acceptable when you're talking about an unwanted child without a secondary method with a 100% success rate.
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/contraception/index.htm

If women around the world didn't rely on secondary methods when primary ones fail, which they often do, they would only have sex for procreation and everyone would be exponentially more frustrated and angry. Not a reasonable or feasible solution.

I......
Um......
Holy fucking sheep shit. Bob, did you have a lobotomy recently? You're in rare form today. Rarely are you this ridiculous.

It's not ok to have aids (not just a gay thing you bigoted moron) and knowingly spread it to others. You go to prison for that.

It's certainly not ok to give a pregnancy to a fourteen year old....you go to prison for that.

So I agree, let's treat anti vaxers like your examples and put them in prison.

Their intentional irresponsibility makes them all collectively guilty of manslaughter hundreds of thousands of times over... and that's being generous. Really it's murder, they knew it's deadly.

So...if you realize it's in your best interest to take it, based on old data of who was most vulnerable BEFORE Delta, why the fuck are you so against it for others? Delta is different, it targets young and old. In the first two weeks of August, infections in those under 18 went up over 5%, a trend that started with the onset of Delta and continues to accelerate. Epsilon may target the young. Your ilk hesitating to get vaccinated helped create this new variant and others, so consider yourselves 100% responsible for the increase in child deaths, your stubborn ignorance has killed hundreds if not thousands of children and disabled tens it not hundreds of thousands that need not ever have been in danger. Edit: and for what?! With all your bluster, you got it anyway, but will probably continue to persuade others to not get it.

Totally agree with @StukaFox, "me, me, me, me, me, and fuck you." Is your mantra. I hope you meet up with yourself and take each other out.
Would you have been against it if Trump was still president and telling you it's safe? I bet not....you are exactly that dumb.

In this instance, you shouldn't have a free choice anymore than you have a free choice to poison your community's water supply with a poison that ONLY kills 2%+ and disables >10% (and makes most everyone sick for weeks). Refusing to vaccinate against a deadly airborne virus is like refusing to stop tossing your lawn darts straight up in the air in a crowded stadium because, to paraphrase you, "my fweedums, my wites, fuck you". Is it a certainty you're going to kill and maim people? No, but it's a high likelihood and a crime to put them in that kind of danger even if you never hit anyone, and murder if you kill some.

Republicans have decided that deadly irresponsibility should not just be their right, but their choice....but not their responsibility when it's deadly. So much for personal responsibility.

Enjoy that new underwear I sent you. Ignore that little sponge in the taint area, it's for your comfort, not just to infect you with fournier's gangrene.

When a dozen of Oakland police department's officers were using a 14 year old girl as their inhouse sex slave I must admit I agree with you that the behaivor and resulting pregnancy was risky and cost the city $1 million to settle.

* a h e m *

wisdom can be displayed at any age.

and age is a teacher...but not all pay attention.

there's a reason the phrases "from the mouth of babes" and "no fool like an old fool" will be passed on to the next generations. it is universally true.

even @18 or 19...or even matt gaetz girlfriend's age, 17...the demonstrative truth is SHE IS A VALEDICTORIAN and she has the sapience (you can look it up) to understand what she is condemning.*

am STILL unconfident that you believe what you're saying (it'd be an insult to both of us). have to be a wag of a satrist. no one is so subtly self-owning w/o some thread of chicanery showing.

just the juxtaposing of "well read" and "idiot" in the same sentence is A SCREAM!! man! that's good!

it's a Carlin skit. "jumbo shrimp"

makes me smile.

[if you're using newt as an example of a bad example, it's a bad example of a bad example. the low-hanging fruit here would be, it's unlikely bk33/tt ever had to worry about any unwanted pregnancy other than their own. doubt they've ever even stroked a petting zoo beaver.

* to be fair; its' Republican fly fodder. hardly 'gold star' level.

Mosquitoes have heartbeats. You kill them. MURDERER! (Pretty fucking stupid argument, isn't it?)

Did you just say no? Have you only ever had sex when trying to get some poor woman pregnant? Did you just say no to any sex not intended to end with children? Guaranteed not, hypocrite.

Are you an uneducated product of right wing or religious "education" and don't know what sex is or that it leads to pregnancy which leads to giving birth? Many are. How would they even know to say no?

To be clear, this law you're supporting makes no distinctions for rape or incest. None. If you're an 11 year old girl who doesn't even know what pregnancy is, pregnant after being raped by daddy ..too fucking bad, have your mutant rape baby or try suicide, only options. That's pure evil....and what this law calls for with no exceptions.

When you have to carry a child, sustaining it with your body even if you know it may kill you, or cannot live outside your womb, or will require constant medical attention at taxpayer expense because you have no money and this unintended pregnancy ends your career, then you can have a say. Until then, what you think is irrelevant.

You left out birth control failure....not that any of your exceptions exist in this new anti woman law. I hope all the decent thinking women in Texas move. I know some ready to. This can only dumb down an already short bus state.

Rape survivors had no choice. Incest survivors had no choice. Birth control failures were not by choice. None of these are exempt. Medical inability to safely carry a child.....that's up to doctors and courts to determine...doctors and courts with anti choice agendas wielding great power while shirking any responsibility.

You're such a misogynistic asshole. If men carried embryos abortions wouldn't just be available in every doctors office, they would be free, and there would be absolutely zero roadblocks to getting one on demand. You would have had at least three, I know full well you're far too stupid to be smart about sex even if you bore the brunt. You would impose Sharia law to remove autonomy from women only because it's unlikely to effect you. How about this....every time a woman is denied an abortion, the man who got her pregnant must have their entire penis removed and be forced into indentured servitude to pay for the bills....over $200000 on average. When you fight for that and win, you get a voice in this woman's issue.

Every time you get out the tweezers and Jack off, you've aborted millions of potential babies. You've therefore, by your definitions, personally murdered more babies than any group of women ever could. Obviously you don't care a bit when you are the murderers....then those unborn children don't count, even though the bible actually specifically says they do but never mentions abortion.

Hilariously, the party of "personal freedom" to make decisions about your own life doesn't believe women should enjoy that freedom....just like you claim to be the party of law and order....but only for others not yourselves.

If it can't live without help outside the womb, it's not a baby, it's a parasite living off another human being. If you think it's ok to force one person to be a life support system for a not yet human, get your ass down to the hospital and donate your kidney, liver, and stay at least 9 months as a transfusion donor without an option to quit...and pay the bills for those you saved. Until then, shut your idiotic hypocritical mouth you moronic woman hating dumb ass.

The Spartans were right, it's not a human until it's first birthday.

Why aren't you busy telling us how Trump will be reinstated as president in August? You know it will happen, a crack head said so. You do know Trump is pro-abortion and has arranged many, right?

Fox News breaking story: Condoms can prevent STIs and pregnancy!

So, the argument is two fold.
One, this issue of personal freedom/choice is important enough that it can't be left to states who might eliminate individual choice in favor of a state's choice. This is the liberal position on this issue, that states will take the choice away from individual woman in favor of the choice made for them, usually by groups of old men. That's why Roe V Wade is essential, it denies the states the right to enslave women to their unwanted, potential, in some cases forced upon them, offspring.

Second, he argued we can't allow laws that take away the freedom of individuals to choose, which slavery did...as do anti abortion laws. You cannot crush the choices of another person....this includes the choice to not be an incubator for another "person" (to misuse the word, assuming they're incorrectly insisting a blastocyst or foetus is a person, all medical and scientific evidence notwithstanding). The "developing life" (doesn't realize he just blew the "life starts at conception" argument with that phrase) cannot take away the rights of the womb's owner, cannot make them a slave to the blastocyst/foetus. The right to life argument fails when you realize no person is forced to donate blood or organs, which people need to live. Real right to life would extend beyond birth and require people become medical slaves to those who need them or their parts.

If it can live without help, fine, develop an abortive processes that allows that at any point in pregnancy, fund it across the board, and start the debate again. Until then, this dumbass just made two arguments for pro choice.
Pathetic.

I quite like what they do in India. Incentives for men to get the snip, and whatever the equivalent procedure is for women. E.g. get a vasectomy, and the government buys you a new car.

No more accidental children (which is what makes up the majority of births). You can imagine that most people taking this offer up are typically going to be people who should not be having children, so it's a huge win for humanity.

Also externalising pregnancy to incubators would ensure that career focused families need not miss out on having children - particularly if they have their sperm and eggs frozen before they are sterilized. They can then have healthy cells ready for when they are ready, providing their children with a better environment to grow up in...... Without the health concerns for the mother, and without the health concerns for the baby (like alcohol and smoking while pregnant, or even mothers with type 2 diabetes, which is a huge problem these days because of what it does to the fetus).

Fewer bad parents, and a larger amount of deserving parents would really tip the scales for a better future in just a couple of generations.

My wife and I carry a recessive Gene that causes the disease NPC type C
It's got the horrible nick name of "Alzheimer's for little kids"
We found out we carry said Gene when we had our daughter and have this to look forward to https://nnpdf.org/the-disease/the-progression-of-niemann-pick-disease/

A few years ago, Indiana passed a law making it illegal to have an abortion because of genetic abnormalities. You can only have an abortion of a healthy pregnancy. The law was stopped by a federal judge, but other laws have lined up to take it's place, enough that working with insurance has become a nightmare. There are 4 other laws that are hindering us moving forward.

So, again, if we could more easily have an abortion, rather than watch a child slowly and needlessly die, we would, and then wait until we had a healthy fetus.

"Just move to another state" oh, yeah that's so fucking easy


If we had easier access to legal abortion, my family would already be bigger. Not that any of this is any of your business, but people have unique situations that you may not have considered.

Right around the corner from my house, there is an abortion clinic. Every fucking day there is a ton of people standing outside protesting AND they bring a deceptive looking bus that offers free pregnancy tests, etc. I did some research and it is a mobile PRC, which is apparently what they are calling CPC's here in Texas.

It is downright annoying. I've had to call the cops out a couple of times because, between the idiot protesters and the bus taking up half the street, many times you can't even get to the I35 access road.

*promote

While I agree that tricking someone into parenthood is an awful thing to do, I feel like your solution might be worse than the crime.

What happens to the child? What happens to the other parent?

Obviously, if it's a man tricking a woman, she can terminate the pregnancy, but I'm pretty sure we don't want to go down the path of forcing a woman to have an abortion, even in this circumstance.

At which point, the woman is in jail and the father, even if he didn't want a kid, might feel he has to raise the child himself.

But yeah, it's an utterly reprehensible thing to do.