I have an agenda, I have several actually, and they are all solved with not consuming animal products for food or materials.
1. I don't want the environment to be destroyed, through mass extinction, waste, and global warming.
2. I don't want animals to be exploited, tortured and killed for profit and pleasure.
3. I don't want to die young as a result of eating myself into chronic disease. (And I don't like that 90% of people in hospitals are there because of easily preventable disease. Where I live it is a massive cost to the government and it could be used for quality education instead).

If that is self righteous then show me to my high horse.


Gluten intolerance means you can eat literally everything but three types of grain plants.

In the books I mentioned, you'll be blown away at how much food there is to eat, and how little of it contains wheat, bulgur or rye. And even if some recipes do, you can substitute those with dozens of other ingredients.

The books also contain thousands of references to peer reviewed studies. I mentioned those because they contain a lot of recipes too, but if you want one that is purely scientific then there is always "How Not To Die" by Dr. Michael Greger. After reading that you'd be INSANE to keep eating any animal products.

All of the evidence is in these books, and I'm sure if you take the time to read them you'll see (like I did) how wrong the modern lifestyles are.

Also being lactose intolerant, I'm sure you know you can enjoy many different types of milk such as rice/soy/hemp/coconut/hazelnut/cashew/almond etc

I understand that you have to be more careful about what you eat being gluten intolerant, but you don't have to be a victim to it, read the books I have suggested and you'll be able to live your life to the fullest.

The self righteousness of your post almost made me feel sick. Vegetarianism SHOULD be a stepping stone to veganism? It SHOULD be whatever the hell you want it to be - for example a temporary situation for when you SHOULD return to eating meat.

Now i'm not going to do what you did and reel off the standard list of reasons why veganism is bad for you, they are well documented and discussed but we all know that it is very possible to have a varied and sufficient diet regardless of what you limit yourself to.

As for your comment about milk, i did a quick bit of research - most of the sources i can find saying that milk causes calcium to be ejected out of the body sourced from the bones and/or cause osteoporosis are new age blog style websites written by a vegan who - like you - clearly has some serious agenda.

As for decent sources, here is what i found:
- Several scientific papers noting that though some observational studies have shown more alkali diets being beneficial to bone health in pre- and post- menopausal women, it has yet to be proven in any definitive clinical trial
http://osteoporosis.org.za/general/downloads/dairy.pdf
(and other sources, but not as scientific)

- The Harvard School of Public Health state that it is not clear what the best source of calcium is for bone health. However the consumption of dairy products has more beneficial effects than just bone health - protection against colon cancer for example, also other vitamins, proteins and minerals that are present.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/#calcium-from-milk

Job losses may seem irrelevant to you, but i suggest that's because you have a very very tenuous grasp on the farming profession and don't rely on it for your income. No, you can't simply replace any and all dairy farms/farmers and workers with plant-based farming alternatives. There are a huge number of reasons for this which only a farmer would be able to tell us in detail, but for example - the equipment is different and requires a huge investment (both for acquisition and storage and transport and so on), the land and buildings are not necessarily interchangeable, the skills and knowledge are often built up since childhood and are not instantly transferable, the connections within the industry for logistics and business dealings are different. These are just a few that i thought up.

Yes, some animals are poorly treated in the farming industry and it makes me very sad to think of. However if you are careful and attentive you can ensure that you do not consume any products that were unfairly treated. This is like saying that a minority of clothes sold in shops are made in sweatshops by exploited child labour, therefore we should ban all clothes from the planet.

I could go on and on and on, and even begin my own dissertation on how "everyone going vegan" would be detrimental to overall public health and prosperity; if we grow more crops, more animals must be killed to ensure the crop is healthy and full.. we are not able to process celulose because we evolved.. there are things you can't get from plants that your body needs.. etc. But this comment is already very long, and i think i've broken the backbone of your argument already.

I will mention though that your crusade could end up being very damaging to the health of people who have auto immune diseases and/or allergies that rely on meat to have a balanced and varied diet. I recently discovered that i have coeliac disease (auto immune response to gluten) and secondary lactose intolerance, and i really wish i could explain to you just how difficult it is to avoid gluten containing grains and lactose.

For you it is a choice to not eat anything that comes from animals, for me it is a necessity that i have to avoid gluten and lactose otherwise i get debilitating pain within half an hour. If i did not have access to meat and eggs, there would be very little that i could eat. Wheat is added to almost everything, or almost everything is made in the same vicinity as wheat products resulting in cross contamination. Meat and eggs are sometimes the ONLY thing that i can be sure are safe to eat, and yet some self righteous do-gooder like yourself sits there on a high horse telling me how terrible it is that i inevitably, medically do what our ancestors have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years of human prosperity and ascendance.

If you'd had a bit more of an open mind when you wrote that comment, if i hadn't found out i have these medical conditions, if you'd said things in a debatable way, presented your sources (you provide none), offered it up for discussion rather than a commandment written on a stone tablet, then i probably wouldn't have replied like this. But when i'm forced into doing something and an interfering busybody strolls along and shrieks "oooooooooh you shouldn't be doing that!!!" it really does wind me up.

I think we've just about reached the "agree to disagree" point. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that the other person keeps any of the truth the other said in their mind and mull it over. Thanks for the chat.

I agree that inhumane is a silly word. "Inhumane" acts are often acts only perpetrated by humans.

I dislike the argument about the fact that farm animals would go extinct if we didn't keep systematically breeding and killing them. So what? Then let them go extinct. I personally think it's morally accetable to let an animal go extinct naturally -- especially if the alternative is to perpetually keep them un-extinct just to, essentially, torture them for our pleasure. I do, however, agree with your later comment that it would be a clusterfuck to figure out what to do with the ones that do currently exist. Easiest solution: keep eating them but don't breed them. Unfortunate human consequence: meat would become expensive. Also, during the time that we eat off the rest of them, those workers could train for another (hopefully) less miserable job. I can't believe many, regardless of how they rationalize it, can enjoy killing something before its time.

I'm fully aware of how the slave comparison is a bit off the edge (I even said so), but it's a hyperbole for the purpose of making a point: it is immoral to treat any animal to pain and suffering -- regardless of how you treat any other one of them. One mercy killing does not absolve you of another horrific one.

I am not saying that animals are not always treated poorly and without thought for their comfort. I am just saying that they are not allowed into the safe moral haven that handicapped humans are let into. If we mercy killed even one handicapped person, there would be an uproar that deafened the world. A mercy killing. Imagine if they did any of the (even "humane") things they do to animals to a handicapped person. It would be morally disallowed to an extreme degree. I don't know why animals don't get the same treatment.

Again, when you bring anything up about "evolution", I roll my eyes. We're humans with supposed free will. We're supposed to be above that, right?

If every vegan food you ate was inedible and made you sick than either your cook does not know how to cook, it was gluten-free, or there was something horribly wrong with the food. Fresh fruit? Beans? Peanut butter? Nuts? Berries? Greens? Carrots? B12 supplements? They made you sick? Something you ate was horribly wrong.

Your Olympic athlete statement is just factually incorrect. I would think you'd google that before stating something as fact.

And agaiun. "Evolution". Yeah, that happened already. Let's move on.

Stop making me feel bad about my cats! I already confessed guilt! :-P I actually do spend a ridiculous amount of money so that the food is better than just crap. I'm lucky enough to be wealthy enough to do it and I am extremely thankful for that. And! The amount of wealth that cat videos have garnered for advertisers is hardly unproductive.

And my partner and I are also on board about not having kids. She and I both think they're the worst thing you could ever do to the planet, animals, or people. Utopia got it right.

OK, let's ignore the sideshow and get to the point. Yes, you make choices that do no harm and make you feel better unlike others (I'm looking at you, homeopathy). So did Kriss Kross but I still feel compelled to call wearing your pants backwards stupid. Your food trend isn't that much better.
I don't have to sift through the internet to know that. Do you like dessert?
I make a lot of dessert. A LOT! Even vegan. Vegan Vanillasauce. I have to replace milk and cream with soymilk and the eggyolks with some starch (usually corn, for the gluten-free asshats). The only original ingredients are sugar (healthy!) and vanillabean.
You see the problem?
I replace ingredients you object to to mimic a product you shouldn't want in the first place. All the fucking time. All the fucking time I see vegan recipes of dishes that normally contain eggs or milk or butter or even meatproducts. I know a cook who can make vegan Leberwurst. Go on, google 'Leberwurst' and explain to me how somebody who wants to eat that and be vegan isn't a tool.
I don't mind vegetarians at all. They have actually compelling reasons for that diet choice. I wouldn't make that choice ever but I can respect theirs and believe everybody should (a lot of people don't). I loose my respect for individual vegetarians the minute they start talking about Tofuschnitzel. You want Schnitzel? Maybe you should just go and have Schnitzel. You can still eat vegetarian the rest of the week. You're just 'mostly vegetarian' then. That's fine too.
Imagine a man who tells you all the time how he disapproves of the 'homosexual lifestyle' and thinks that kind of behaviour is immoral and wrong. Then that man goes home, tells his wife to get her strap-on and moans 'Channing!' repeatedly while she does him from behind.
That man is as much of a tool as the guy who walks in a restaurant and orders vegan creme brulee. Or any pie. Or pancakes. Or Lasagne. Or a milkshake. Or something with Cheese. Or with Honey. Or icecream. Sorbets are fine though. They're mostly fruit, sugar (healthy!) and water.
I don't hate you, I just call out the stupid thing you do. You want to improve the treatment of animals, make it more ethical? That's fine, I'm with you on that. I just don't see how not using butter can help.

It's not an us vs. them or you against me thing. A Vegan diet is simply unnecessary and doesn't do anything good what a vegetarian diet can do as well. You're not healthier because you don't drink milk. You're not helping any animals because the vast, vast majority of mankind still prefers meat and that industry is still globalized, trying to produce as cheap as possible. All you do by going vegan is increasing the consumption of soybeans and almonds.
It's a silly restriction on what you eat that forces you to constantly emulate the very products you want to avoid with inferior and/or costlier products.
It's the same with that even more stupid food trend of gluten-free products. Don't have celiac disease? Fuck right off! If you don't have medical reasons (and there a few), that diet is as dumb as one the probibits you only from eating red gummibears.
The food and fitness business is full of dubious and downright wrong information and that leads to ridiculous, overpriced products like asparaguswater.

Is it gluten free?

wuts a gluten?

Gluten in potato chips? Noooooooooooooooooooo

Does he have a gluten allergy?


for reference: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/da0n0b/it-will-make-your-dick-fly-off

My wife had the same kind of symptoms. She was diagnosed with Celiac disease and irritable bowel by her GP. And I learned the hard way to double check that I get gluten free chow. A night with her alternating between throwing up and curling up in a ball on the bathroom floor means I read the ingredients label on everything... twice. Moral of the story I guess is go see a doctor.

Yes, did. As noted in other replies, if it makes one feel better (or makes one think they feel better) they're going to do it, and the gluten thing is a relatively minor contributor compared to other wonky ideas. Consider - homeopathic medicine, in 2007 the CDC says $2.9 billion was paid out of pocket by adults > 18 years of age. This is one that to me is absolutely ludicrous even before the patient puts the 6C dilution to their lips, but hey it makes some people feel better, so damned if they're going to be influenced by logic. I guess making the effort is justifiable enough for motivation for the presenter, I'm just not that optimistic.

Couldn't agree more. But (there's always a 'but')... if a person convinces themself that they feel better without gluten, then the most passionate and data filled argument presented to tell them that what they feel is not justifiable scientifically, they're still going to be silly and tell the informed individual to screw off. The point is, some people have a reason that is good enough for them, and nobody is going to convince them otherwise. Are we really that dialed in to what's healthy and what nutrients we need for a healthy lifestyle? (whatever that means...). By example, consider the history of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - in the early 90's, people were feeling shitty and weak, in pain and suffering. They were labeled as fakers or diagnosed as having a psychological disorder, but certainly not a verifiable medical condition related to any consistent physiological disorder. Thousands then and now millions of people have been diagnosed with the disease that is finally recognized as a true medical ailment. The point: we know a lot but we don't know it all when it comes to physiology, nutrition and "sensitivities", and there is no one size fits all solution to guarantee we will be healthy. It's understandable that some are dismissive of this gluten thing as completely irrational based on current science, but parallel that with the irrational and mocked CFS sufferers from 30 years ago who now carry a disease that is has a clear diagnostic methodology and is to varying degrees treatable. Sometimes we don't even know what we don't even know, and for some if it makes them feel better, they're going to do it. Harmful? To each their own.

Yeah, that's true, I'm sure the burden of glutenophobics on our medical system and taxpayer dollars is right up there with hangnails and "it hurts when I do this". Tempest in a teacup. If I'm going to get pissed about something chewing up taxpayer dollars that's related to healthcare for stupid people doing stupid things, it sure isn't going to be gluten. How about, oh, I don't know, smoking. For the years 2009–2012, economic cost due to smoking is estimated to be more than $289 billion a year. This cost includes at least $133 billion in direct medical care for adults and more than $156 billion for lost productivity from premature death estimated from 2005 through 2009**.

Any stats out on the gluten hysteria and burden on health care? I think that cumulative is going to take a long time to show up on the graph, and the fad will likely have died before the next leap year.

(**US Department of Health and Human Services. The Health Consequences of Smoking—50 Years of Progress: A Report of the Surgeon General. Atlanta, GA: US Dept. of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; 2014)

My gf had terrible headaches, constant nausea, and terrible drowsiness whenever she was hungry for her entire life... until I met her. I suggested she might be hypoglycaemic and should carry around a sugary treat or drink wherever she goes. She started doing that and quickly her hunger sickness symptoms could be basically controlled. But they were still there. One thing I always found strange about her eating habits was her insistence on having lots of bread. She never felt satisfied or full without bread.

After a year of doing that my mom suggested she might be gluten intolerant. My gf had never heard of the concept, had zero friends on any kind of gluten free fad diets. She decided to give it a shot, no gluten for 4 weeks. Boom all symptoms gone. More tests led her to trying out gluten after a week, and what do you know it was back. She waited two weeks, back again. Eventually she figured out a system in which she could have a gluten meal/snack/treat every four weeks without symptoms appear.
Also, she started to feel satisfied and full without an urge to eat bread, almost like the bread caused a weird drug like addicting withdrawal cycle which seemed to be why she always craved it. The gluten seems to build up in her system, or at least the allergic reaction and her body goes through a withdrawal after she has had too much, or too much too frequently, and doesn't get more in her system soon enough.

I eat gluten just fine. Together we eat vegetables, meat, fruit, and occasional pieces of the best gluten free bread (most of its sucks). I tend not to eat tasty gluten stuff around her unless it is a treat day for her Gluten products also make people fat, so it really isn't a problem to not eat them. No one on the planet requires gluten to live a healthy lifestyle. Bread, white bread in particular just gets converted into sugars and fat inside the body. It is empty calories.