this guy is either a complete moron, completely corrupt or something else I can't even define.

So small business are responsible for the majority of jobs, and what the fuck does that have to do with raising taxes on the top 10%? Are small business owners on the top 10%?? You're a fucking joke.

The "evil rich" pay 38% of all taxes already. The 'bottom' 50% pay less than 2% of taxes yet slurp up plenty of government "services".

Dismissing the moral component for a moment, you could tax the rich at 99% and it wouldn't matter. There isn't enough money to cover a perpetually expanding government and the endless wants of the wish-to-haves.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/must-read/forbes-400-vs-everybody-else

>> ^quantumushroom:

The "evil rich" pay 38% of all taxes already. The 'bottom' 50% pay less than 2% of taxes yet slurp up plenty of government "services".
Dismissing the moral component for a moment, you could tax the rich at 99% and it wouldn't matter. There isn't enough money to cover a perpetually expanding government and the endless wants of the wish-to-haves.


You didn't define "evil rich", but the bottom 80% only control 15% of the wealth in this country, while the top 1% alone controls over 40% of the wealth.

I'd also disagree on who gets more out of government services. The rich mostly get their payoffs in the form of tax loopholes so they don't show up on lists of "government spending". For example, see how GE got $3.2 billion from the government for filing their taxes this year. That's a hell of a tax credit, and it doesn't show up in anyone's federal budget proposal!

So is you issue with large corporations ( like GE ) not paying any tax due to loopholes or that their tax bracket is or is not high enough?

Would it not make since to cut all loopholes and give a relativity flat tax based on quarterly statements?

I agree with Qm The rich are pitching way more then anyone else. Still they stay filthy rich. But should they pay more? Should not the lower income bracket also pay something? If they would at least pay some tax they would have a better understanding of what is going on with respect to taxes.

Personally I would like a flat tax. I would even say ok to a excessive rate of 23% just to keep politicians from bitching and moaning that the children/ elderly will starve if we go to a flat tax.

Every thing I'm getting at is really for a smaller Government with a Keep it simple stupid mentality.

There is no reason for a person to spend 40 hours in figuring out their federal taxes each year.

And there is no reason for GE to post 14 Billion in profits (would wide) and not pay any taxes in the USA.


>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^quantumushroom:
The "evil rich" pay 38% of all taxes already. The 'bottom' 50% pay less than 2% of taxes yet slurp up plenty of government "services".
Dismissing the moral component for a moment, you could tax the rich at 99% and it wouldn't matter. There isn't enough money to cover a perpetually expanding government and the endless wants of the wish-to-haves.

You didn't define "evil rich", but the bottom 80% only control 15% of the wealth in this country, while the top 1% alone controls over 40% of the wealth.
I'd also disagree on who gets more out of government services. The rich mostly get their payoffs in the form of tax loopholes so they don't show up on lists of "government spending". For example, see how GE got $3.2 billion from the government for filing their taxes this year. That's a hell of a tax credit, and it doesn't show up in anyone's federal budget proposal!

you're half right, bobknight33. Close the corporate loopholes (but that will never happen because deep down both left and right want them)

But the Flat tax is anything but fair, Do the math and you'll figure it out. Just because it's called "fair tax" doesn't mean it's fair. Giving everyone the same tax rate is yet another giveaway to the rich. Progressive tax is the only real fair way to go because the business owners and the rich utilize gov't services far more than a low or middle class person ever will..so since they use more gov't services, it's only fair that they pay more.

Simple fact of the matter is that a "fair" tax rate for a upper class person or business is anything but fair for a lower/middle class person. a fair tax rate for a lower income person applied to everyone simply wouldn't bring in enough revenue to pay the bills even if Republicans had their wet dream of axing all entitlement and art programs, they wouldn't have enough for defense either I'd wager.

Closing the corporate loopholes is the only thing I've ever heard that both proponents of the left AND the right can agree on, but it simply never happen because the people at the top (both left and right) have grown fat from the tax breaks from those loopholes.

If you want to get serious about fixing the budget. As others have already said, nothing should be sacred, everything should be on the table to be cut...but that also means that raising taxes should not be the taboo it currently is. If it's ok to cut spending, then it's ok to bring more money in.

Small gov't is not efficient goverment. Efficient government is efficient gov't. Efficiency has nothing to do with size.

LOL Fact There is not a direct correlation between super wealthy and hard work. Infact of the super super welthy they make money of off money itself doing fuck all work of social benefit, or simply have and rape there manoply on a given natural resource.

If you want a nice socity with the most people happy and helthy You Tax people more who earn more , especially those that are in and way above the average % of what the average american earns. For a country to be healthy , happy and have low crime you need the populace to all have a similar amount of income and for the lowest people in that society to be covered for health and have a place to live thats clean has gas water and also have access to healthy food , Education should also be completely free.

Also money should not be allowed to be passed on through a family all people should start life with a similar amount of wealth.


At the moment the way it works is this , You have rich parents you get more rich the pore get more pore.

very very rairly middel class or lower class people get ritch , and allso very rairly the ritch get pore . but for most people the rich are rich becuse they started ritch or at least upper middel class.


Bissinesses dont neccecerly have to be heavily taxed bissinesses should be taxed bassed of of there soicail contibution so a business that produces soft drinks would be taxed more than say a medical business ( however u would have laws that force medical bussines to put its profits back into the medicen and research and allso have incentives to drive the price of drugs down)

you could evan have it so that before a company is taxed they have an opertunity to give money to socaily beoficail things so they no longer have to rely on the goverment to redistribute it for them , so taking the soft drink company example they could premitvly give money to schools , hospitals , scentific research , and use that as a way for people to want to buy into there products.

bassed of the current buing power of dollers no one person in a socity should have at ther personal disposoir more than $500,000 allso bare in mind in this future society you would not be paying stupendous amounts for housing as we currently do.

A truly grate country and society would be one that rewards most for people benefiting others in that society , not rewarding for who has the best way to game the system to make money ( which is basicly how it curently works)

Everything will probably stay fucked though due to the simple fact that as it is welth is power and its exsponataily esear to make money when you have more money. so unless there is a revolution in western countries or some sort of massive natural disaster things will stay exactly as they are.

you have to think of the super ritch as the kings in the castels middel and lower midel class are the people tilling the feilds and suporting the kings , and then u have pessents that steal beg and do general shit just to stay alive.

so long as most people can get access to clean water , food and are not massively dying out of desize then there wont be an uprising the super ritch know this and thats why things are as they are now. as time goes on its allso the case that the kings have built ever more secure and stronger walls.

using money you don't need physical walls you can simply employ police forces and military to protect you , also having hardly anyone know you are a king is a huge benefit.

1. the lower income brackets DO pay something. sales tax, excise taxes, property taxes. and disproportionately so. the lower/middle income families spend a greater portion of their monthly incomes on taxable goods and services, where the higher income brackets have a higher rate of savings... they're saving a greater portion of their income, therefore not spending it on taxable goods and services.
states that have no state income tax (like texas) and rely solely on sales, excise and property taxes typically have a regressive taxation system... meaning the bulk of the burden of the state and municipal operating budgets are placed disproportionately on lower/middle income families.

2. i'm a working single mom with 2 kids. i work my ass off. i don't live beyond my means. i take care of my things. if a 15% flat tax rate were implemented guess who'd be (back) on government assistance??? i don't have 15% of my income left over at the end of the month. i typically can put 10-12% of my income back, split between a retirement account and a rainy day fund. and for 2 years i couldnt even dream of doing that. (i got laid off in 09 and JUST NOW got back to full time work that also pays a living wage) a flat tax rate would create more problems than it would solve for the working poor with families to care for.

>> ^bobknight33:

So is you issue with large corporations ( like GE ) not paying any tax due to loopholes or that their tax bracket is or is not high enough?
Would it not make since to cut all loopholes and give a relativity flat tax based on quarterly statements?
I agree with Qm The rich are pitching way more then anyone else. Still they stay filthy rich. But should they pay more? Should not the lower income bracket also pay something? If they would at least pay some tax they would have a better understanding of what is going on with respect to taxes.
Personally I would like a flat tax. I would even say ok to a excessive rate of 23% just to keep politicians from bitching and moaning that the children/ elderly will starve if we go to a flat tax.
Every thing I'm getting at is really for a smaller Government with a Keep it simple stupid mentality.
There is no reason for a person to spend 40 hours in figuring out their federal taxes each year.
And there is no reason for GE to post 14 Billion in profits (would wide) and not pay any taxes in the USA.

>> ^NetRunner:
>> ^quantumushroom:
The "evil rich" pay 38% of all taxes already. The 'bottom' 50% pay less than 2% of taxes yet slurp up plenty of government "services".
Dismissing the moral component for a moment, you could tax the rich at 99% and it wouldn't matter. There isn't enough money to cover a perpetually expanding government and the endless wants of the wish-to-haves.

You didn't define "evil rich", but the bottom 80% only control 15% of the wealth in this country, while the top 1% alone controls over 40% of the wealth.
I'd also disagree on who gets more out of government services. The rich mostly get their payoffs in the form of tax loopholes so they don't show up on lists of "government spending". For example, see how GE got $3.2 billion from the government for filing their taxes this year. That's a hell of a tax credit, and it doesn't show up in anyone's federal budget proposal!

The thing is people belive in this dumb fuck mith that people with lots of money worked for that money.

they allso belive that fincail succsess is a skilled or something that good people achive , they are totaly ignorent to the fact that the biggest fincail rewards are for people that work out how to best Game the system not people that best contribute to socity.

the perpouse of money in our modern system is to allow for the ruling few to remain in absalut comfort and power , Not as a covenant bartering tool as it was intended.

>> ^peggedbea:

1. the lower income brackets DO pay something. sales tax, excise taxes, property taxes. and disproportionately so. the lower/middle income families spend a greater portion of their monthly incomes on taxable goods and services, where the higher income brackets have a higher rate of savings... they're saving a greater portion of their income, therefore not spending it on taxable goods and services.
states that have no state income tax (like texas) and rely solely on sales, excise and property taxes typically have a regressive taxation system... meaning the bulk of the burden of the state and municipal operating budgets are placed disproportionately on lower/middle income families.
2. i'm a working single mom with 2 kids. i work my ass off. i don't live beyond my means. i take care of my things. if a 15% flat tax rate were implemented guess who'd be (back) on government assistance??? i don't have 15% of my income left over at the end of the month. i typically can put 10-12% of my income back, split between a retirement account and a rainy day fund. a flat tax rate would create more problems than it would solve for the working poor with families to care for. and for 2 years i couldnt even dream of doing that. (i got laid off in 09 and JUST NOW got back to full time work that also pays a living wage)
>> ^bobknight33:
So is you issue with large corporations ( like GE ) not paying any tax due to loopholes or that their tax bracket is or is not high enough?
Would it not make since to cut all loopholes and give a relativity flat tax based on quarterly statements?
I agree with Qm The rich are pitching way more then anyone else. Still they stay filthy rich. But should they pay more? Should not the lower income bracket also pay something? If they would at least pay some tax they would have a better understanding of what is going on with respect to taxes.
Personally I would like a flat tax. I would even say ok to a excessive rate of 23% just to keep politicians from bitching and moaning that the children/ elderly will starve if we go to a flat tax.
Every thing I'm getting at is really for a smaller Government with a Keep it simple stupid mentality.
There is no reason for a person to spend 40 hours in figuring out their federal taxes each year.
And there is no reason for GE to post 14 Billion in profits (would wide) and not pay any taxes in the USA.

>> ^NetRunner:
>> ^quantumushroom:
The "evil rich" pay 38% of all taxes already. The 'bottom' 50% pay less than 2% of taxes yet slurp up plenty of government "services".
Dismissing the moral component for a moment, you could tax the rich at 99% and it wouldn't matter. There isn't enough money to cover a perpetually expanding government and the endless wants of the wish-to-haves.

You didn't define "evil rich", but the bottom 80% only control 15% of the wealth in this country, while the top 1% alone controls over 40% of the wealth.
I'd also disagree on who gets more out of government services. The rich mostly get their payoffs in the form of tax loopholes so they don't show up on lists of "government spending". For example, see how GE got $3.2 billion from the government for filing their taxes this year. That's a hell of a tax credit, and it doesn't show up in anyone's federal budget proposal!

also, i'm really close to small business owner whos net worth is about $15million. he likes to tell me stories of owning his business when the corporate tax rate was around 50%... to avoid paying 50% of his income back to the government he'd invest in his business... by hiring people or by making large capital equipment purchases so that he could take the deductions. THIS is what drives the economy. not by making the tax rate so low, deductions so high and loopholes so obvious that there is no reason to do much else other than cling tighter to your welfare. the trickle down never ever trickles down... oh and also, he was still really fucking rich when his corporate tax rate was higher.

>> ^bobknight33:

So is you issue with large corporations ( like GE ) not paying any tax due to loopholes or that their tax bracket is or is not high enough?

My issue is that if people are worried about the US budget, then 100% of the discussion should be about making sure corporations and the wealthy pay a higher percentage of their real income in taxes than the people they hire to mow their lawn or answer their phones, and 0% about cutting aid to the disabled, the poor, children, and the elderly.

If someone demands some cuts in "spending" then I say kill corporate welfare before you touch aid to people who actually need it.

ARE YOU SOME KIND OF SOCALIST !

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^bobknight33:
So is you issue with large corporations ( like GE ) not paying any tax due to loopholes or that their tax bracket is or is not high enough?
My issue is that if people are worried about the US budget, then 100% of the discussion should be about making sure corporations and the wealthy pay a higher percentage of their real income in taxes than the people they hire to mow their lawn or answer their phones, and 0% about cutting aid to the disabled, the poor, children, and the elderly.
If someone demands some cuts in "spending" then I say kill corporate welfare before you touch aid to people who actually need it.

The myth is that if you give the rich business owners even more money and power, they'll save us all with job creation.

Now if that actually happened, I wouldn't mind it if they were given some sort of tax credit because it would mean they really are putting money back into the system. But that's just not what happens, it's the exception, not the rule. Most of the time that money just gets pocketed, not reinvested into their company. Gov't simply does NOT get good value for that investment

If there were actual stipulations to these tax credits, I'd be in favor of them more, but in reality it's more like this:

Rich Person: Hi, I'm rich, I'd like more money please."
Gov't: "Here you go! If you want more, just ask!"

Besides, even if tax increases killed job creation (and history shows that that doesn't happen) Whose fault is that? If someone is holding your wife hostage and will shoot your wife if you take a step closer. The person to blame is the guy pulling the trigger, not the person who took a step closer.

If you want to grow the economy then perhaps a simple understanding of the word grow might help. A tree doesn't have branches appear in the air, then as years go on, it moves to the ground and eventually establishes roots. One doesn't build an economy from the top down, just like you don't suspend a mast in the air then build a deck, then a framework and then the hull. No building things and growing things go from the bottom up. Help the people who spend money, the poor and working class, and when they spend money those businesses soon have to hire more people to help with the increased customer base. Those workers now have more money and they spend money and the cycle starts. Now suppliers and transportation need to ramp up their work force. This puts even more people to work and more people spending. Now we need more manufacturing to keep up with demand. This builds things even more. Giving money to the rich who only horde it does nothing for the economy. Simple logic... this is of course why the Republicans want to cut education, the more ignorant the populace the more willing they are to accept BS lines like that GM quoted. Even though that is exclusively about federal income taxes and not taxes as a whole. The rich stop paying their share of Social Security at about $106,000.
During the past 30 years of this trickle down/supply side economics, the rich have got richer while the middle class has gotten poorer. 10 years of the Bush tax cuts and the job rates have gone down and the rich get richer. Of course facts never got in the way of real policy, a gullible Fox News public believes that all poor people are poor because they are lazy bums, all of whom just want to leech off society. The Fox News public believes that critical thought is evil and leads people away from Jesus, never mind that they ignore their Bible lessons of Jesus wanting to help the sick and the poor, of reaching out to the sinners of his age and hanging with them and condemned the religious zealots of his time, and they want to smite the sick and the poor and condemn the sinners of our age and hang out with the religious.
Of course 98% of the Democrats give in as well. They refused to stand up and fight for the people they say they care about (oddly the Republicans don't even pretend to hide their pure hatred for the working class and poor and favoritism of the rich and the Fox News public still love them, even though they are the very people the Republicans make a very vocal point of hating)...
Just getting myself upset thinking about it all and the lack of care for their fellow man that the right has...