*quality

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by kulpims.

Easily Peter Capaldi's best moment as the Doctor.

And apropos of the moment.

Well done.

So who fired the first shot? THATS what most people dont understand or try to deny.

Does it matter? All that matters is that the shooting stops.

Of course it matters! How the hell should the shooting stop if we dont (want to) see the cause?? Just give the guy with the broken leg more pain killers and dont do anything about the leg, huh??
We just keep the circle going because we stay ignorant, even though were oh so morally high western countries.
Intelligent species my fucking ass. Cant even learn from simple history or cause and effect.

I thought those episodes were about Syrian refugees even before Paris.

And no, I won't pray for Paris. Too much prayer and too little thinking is what got us in this mess in the first place.

I don't think blaming one side would help in this multilateral clusterfuck, assumed there is one side to blame and not all of them.

You dont get that its not about the blame. Its about learning from mistakes and thus about not keeping doing things that just make it worse!
And again, see my first comment here. Youre one of those people I talk about. If youre genuinely clueless or actually defending the stuff we did there, I dont know. But the end result is the same: We keep generating more hate there and I wont waste more time with you, since I obviously cant break your ignorance either way.

ISIL doesn't have "concerns", they want to be in power. Megalomania can't be reasoned with.

The problem is that you think that you get to decide where the starting line is. The path you are pointing down requires taking in the totality of history, not using some arbitrary point that is within living memory

For example, when do you think this started?

Was it with the Arab Spring and Assad's put down of the revolution? Maybe the invasion of Iraq in 2003? Perhaps when Iraq invaded Kuwait? When Libya bombed the plane at Lockerbie? The 6-day war? The establishment of the state of Israel? British Colonialism in the Middle East? The Crusades? The Battle of Yarmouk in 636?

Trying to find a singular, root cause is not how you end a conflict. That is done through humanizing your enemy, recognizing the futility of your efforts, finding alternative means to meet your needs, compromising and forgiving.

(source: MA in conflict resolution and 5 years of peacebuilding work)

Ya had to bring up Yarmouk, didn't ya? Too soon, man. Too soon. I had a lotta money riding on those Byzantines, man.

No and yes. Its the violent and warmongering western policy in that region. We have always destabilized it, yet have learned nothing from it. We just keep going and then wonder why its getting worse. Its a neocon policy. Easy to stop, many people have already said what the solution would be, yet there are always the powerful neocons who live from fear mongering, suffering and wars. And of course from blind following people like you who support them.

2003 was just another puzzle piece. The support of extremists in Syria too, the support of them in Libya aswell. The support of Saudi Arabia is a very big puzzle piece. The CIA operations in that region just as much.
The support of Saddam Hussein also is another small puzzle piece, just as much as we made him think that he can attack Kuwait and we wont interfere. He thought that because we allowed him and instigated him to attack Iran, then supported both sides, because we wanted to destabilize that region once again. Did I mention the coup detat in Iran yet?
And its not that we werent warned about it. Lots of smart people said that giving the Jews Israel would end in disaster. The signs were easy to spot. Lots of people warned about an Iraq war in 2003. Even the neocons own people warned about the IS in documents, yet they ignored it and kept going, strengthening it even more. People warned about what would happen to Libya after Ghaddafi was gone. Again they did not care. Lots of people warned about what was going on in Syria, that Assad was confronted with an extremists group long before the "revolution" that is now known as Al Nusra, a branch of Al Kaida. What did they do? They weakened Assad. Lots of people warned about the refugee crisis and extremists flooding into Europe among those refugees. What do they do? They open the borders and let everyone in without any checks at all, even inviting the whole world to come, ignoring actual laws.

You see, good knowledge of history is mandatory to understand cause and effect. You dont have that knowledge, as you have proved already, because you try to marginalize it by including things from centuries ago and try to solve those with the same solutions from centuries ago. But I dont blame you, since youre probably American. American history teaching is as messed up as their foreign policy.
You cant see coherences in all that. Lots of people dont. Thats why we are doomed to repeat history.

I mean just look at the policy since 9/11. It was meant to bring us all more security from terrorist attacks like that. Yet it has only become worse. Extremists are stronger than ever before and keep getting stronger with everything we do to "weaken" them. And yet people like you dont ask themselves why, actually attack people like me who have realized whats wrong.
Intelligent species my ass.

Ad hominem attacks because some one doesn't share your opinion? That's low..

Do you think everyone who doesn't applaud you comments is an american neocon? Grow up!

EOD for me.

You're making some good points until you slipped into troll territory. If @aaronfr has experience with conflict-resolution, either he sucks at it or you could learn a lot from him.

For what it's worth, I'm just as disappointed in humanity as you seem to be.

Oh, so now pathetic PC is coming into play too? Ever thought about that I too am a human, who cant just swallow all that shit without venting, especially when confronted with ignorance that caused all this shit in the first place? I mean WTF... people are dying, and you expect me to pretend like them that all is well? I am starting another war with words like those? If that is the case, we are beyond hope anyway, and I am glad I make people like those uncomfortable.

Oh my gawd, I vented my frustration a bit at the end. Damn me into oblivion for being... a war mongering, conflict seeking troll hypocrite... or something...
... in less than 1% of what I wrote!

Oh, Im sorry for calling out his bullshit. PC is much more important than the truth, right? No. PC creates taboos, and taboos have no place in a real democracy by definition.
And thats not opinions, that actually facts. There are even psychological studies about this. But the biggest bully of the world of course wont accept those facts and call them opinions, not only because he doesnt know anything else and would never admit he caused all this crap, but also because people like those would lose their power instantly. Funny how the first concern was about blame, he was afraid of being exposed, like they all are. And here I am putting out blame to the ignorant people who dont want to accept reality and being attacked because of it. Also something learned from history. We had to fight a world war to make people realize what a piece of shit they voted. Again, nothing learned from history. "But I didnt vote for them" instead.

These people are mentally ill, always have been for thousands of years. And they rule THE superpower nowadays. Normally history would have taught us about people like those very well, yet they are still being elected into power, if that history would be taught in schools. Well, it is, but there is no connection being made. "People today are completely different. We are hard working, honest, freedom loving democratic people who love all that lives, no comparison from the Romans or medieval times!!111eleven". BULLSHIT. Humanity hasnt changed a bit. And everyone knows that who knows just a bit of actual history. FACTS.

And now ridicule me for semi-ticking out with things you dont understand, and thus they must be stupid.

@coolhund
dude..chill.
while i totally respect and admire your passion,@dingens is correct in pointing out your ad-hom swipe.you made overly broad assumptions about him with zero evidence to back those assumptions up,at least on this thread there is no evidence.

i think you owe him an apology.

you appear,to me anyways,to be taking any opinions or criticisms as a personal attack upon you and your stance.

i do not really see people disagreeing with you,but rather pointing out the complex dynamics.this does not equate to disagreement,just a desire to refine the parameters of the discussion.

i totally get what you are trying to say and i agree with you,but in your (understandable) frustration you are lashing out at people who do not deserve your ire.

you are correct to point out that the elephant in the room is never questioned,never mind discussed.i.e:america creates the situation,then plays the victim.

which is your basic hegelian dialectic:problem-reaction-solution.

the real discussion is POWER vs POWERLESSNESS,and the abuses of power to the detriment of society,locally and globally.

at least thats how i was reading your commentary.i could have it all wrong but i do admire your passion.

if i could offer some unsolicited advice my friend:do not become so invested in your passions that you forget the plot.the people who have commented here are not your enemies.

they are just commenting,and maybe if you feel they are not understanding what you are laying down..clarify your position by engaging with these people to collectively formulate a better understanding.no need or reason to lash out at them,because maybe they just misunderstood what you were trying to say.

oh god...just realized i am that uncle on the holidays that tries to keep the peace by getting everyone drunk.

ok everybody!
beers on me!
lets go get drunk!

Oh, I am blunt, alright. A lot of people dont like that, because actually they feel attacked since they see those people I criticize in themselves or how they support them with their passiveness. Plus I am very good at figuring out people, analyzing them. Thats what I dont keep silent about either.
It was not an ad hominem attack, because I offered facts (which got ignored with an excuse of ad hominem), and I actually tried to explain why they react how they react.
I havent seen anyone deny anything I said about them. And thats the point. I dont care if hes pissed off now. If hes open and objective he will think about what I said, even check those facts for himself and maybe one day will think that I was right all along. Or not, and hes a lost case, and in that case me being friendly towards his ignorance wouldnt have changed anything. I learned that friendliness (PC) only plays into the hands of these people. I know these people because I was like them once and had friends like them, was part of their "society". It buys them time, it makes them look less despicable than they actually are, it makes people ignore whats really going on. I am sick of sugar coating, newspeak. This has brought us to where we are. Its nothing more than lies. Read 1984 for some insight on how horrible this PC and newspeak already is. Smart people predicted all this. But nobody ever listened to them.

You know, I wasnt much different than these guys here once. I didnt want to believe all this stuff, or only partly. I tried to put it out of my mind with excuses like "stupid conspiracy theorists" or "these are just rare exceptions" or "nobody could have ever predicted it" and used mainstream media sources to make myself feel better if someone told me the harsh reality which I didnt want to accept, and yet knew deep in me that he was right.
I learned from those discussions. They werent pretty, but in the end those guys were absolutely 100% right, even though back then I hated them with a passion for telling me that straight to my face with no friendliness at all, because they saw that I supported this shit.
I didnt lose that passion, but I learned a lot from that.
I am disgusted by my former self when I now think back, how I supported this absolute human scum, how I let them use me as a tool, with their PC ways, lies, corruption and shiny things that are just gold coated turds.

I dont owe anyone an apology, who talks absolute bullshit, lies.
I owed those people an apology for what I said when I was like him. When I spewed out massive ignorance towards them, only to protect myself. And I actually apologized to them later, in the cases where I could still find them.

But yeah, its a waste of time. I said what I wanted to say. Trying to discredit everything or parts of what I said just because I wasnt politically correct, making myself a target for these irrelevant rhetorics (actually excuses) is the problem we have. "OMG he called me a bad thing! He must be a bad person! Nothing he says can be true! OMG! YAY! I CAN JUSTIFY IGNORING HIM NOW!" Do you even see the hypocrisy in that, calling my "attacks" ad hominem? Its funny, the term Whataboutism follows pretty much the same logic "OMG, he exposed my hypocrisy, so what do I do now! Oh right I am sure there is some rhetorical crap I can throw at him to discredit him! No... damn... Well then I simply invent it and call it... Whataboutism!! Yeah!" Thats how it was born. Not even I was that way back then. I thought about what those people said, even if they got really mad at me and called me MUCH worse things than I called people here. I never cared about how they said it. I cared about what they said, even though I didnt realize it back then.
So yeah. Accept it or dont. If facts cant penetrate ignorance, nothing can. Sugar coating it wont change a thing. Ignorant people are ignorant. And now I sounded like MJ in South Park. "Thats ignorant".

@coolhund
*edited down to nothing

just wrote a whole ramblomatic to get you to see what should be patently obvious,but realized you would probably just dig your heels in deeper.

so if you can't see it,you most likely never will.

safe travels in your journeys my friend.
you are intelligent and passionate and on this particular nugget you are blinded by your own pride and stubborness.

that too,shall pass.

Im pretty sure you see it that way, because you too feel attacked and now use ad hominem attacks on me.
Hypocrisy is hard to get for some, when they are accused.

LOL! Youre the first person ever in 40 years to call me stubborn or proud. Maybe I should get my wife and you should tell her that about me, and she will laugh in your face, because she always says I should be much more proud of myself and I always lose arguments with her, yet I dont think shes stubborn. You just see what you want to see, because you know you are wrong, and now actually youre so deep in it that you cant back out anymore, and instead come up with ridiculous stuff like that, not seeing your hypocrisy. But as I said, hypocrisy is hard to get for some people, but its no wonder in a society based on lies. You dont realize that what you criticize on me you have just proved on yourself. It proves again that you guys have understood nothing, because you dont want to understand it. Ignorance and hypocrisy. What can I say what I didnt already?
Yeah, I am done here.

Let me be the second then. You appear blinded by your stubbornness and pride (oddly, pride in your belief in things one should not be prideful about, but that's another issue).

Your ramblings are incredibly difficult to follow...I can't tell at all who 'them' and 'these guys' are...those perpetrating violence, or those trying to show you that this issue is not nearly as simple as you put forth, nor does it have a single cause?
Your insulting rants are even more jumbled and inappropriate. I understand you're frustrated at your inability to convince others of your viewpoint, that's no reason to devolve to ad hom attacks and insults. When you do so, it indicates you are out of reasoned argument and simply frustrated at being corrected by others, not that you are the lone reasonable person in the discussion and the rest are just too stupid to realize it.

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the speech and then doubling down on your dumbarse-ery.