i love chomsky.
and for those of you who think a teacher will not get pressured or terminated for promoting free- thinking and teaching skills to help foster that ability.think again.
i tried teaching in public schools and among the myriad of useless,banal and utterly foolish rules and regulations i.e:dress code,no earrings,cover my tattoos.
i had to deal with a curriculum that literally dictated not only what i taught but HOW i taught.
so what did they need me for?
anybody could read from a book and pass out assignments and take attendance.
NCLB is the greatest abomination in public education and creates not smarter students but the opposite.
thats why i only teach in alternative education.
or did.....trying to get into teaching in the prison system.
it has been a year.things do not look promising.

*promote!

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Sunday, January 17th, 2010 11:21am PST - promote requested by enoch.

This reminds me of a book I recently browsed, Deschooling Society by Ivan Illich. Found it very interesting, definitely on my to-read list.

Goodman's Growing up Absurd is also a good companion to Illich.

I think by 'teach students to think,' Chomsky means teach them to be on the far left of the political bell curve. I went to a high school that loved Chomsky, Zinn, etc., and was generally 'by liberals and for liberals,' and that kind of thing is always going to be obnoxious if you're not born with liberal neurogenetics.

Most members of the liberal community won't believe in genetics for another couple of decades, so until that happens, they'll continue to tolerate no dissent from kids born outside liberals' neurogenetic cluster.

Better to let kids find the path that's right for them, rather than try to strong-arm them.

^He means eugenics.

Oh yeah: 'Liberal' and 'left-wing' are not interchangable terms.

>> ^chilaxe:
I think by 'teach students to think,' Chomsky means teach them to be on the far left of the political bell curve. I went to a high school that loved Chomsky, Zinn, etc., and was generally 'by liberals and for liberals,' and that kind of thing is always going to obnoxious if you're not born with liberal neurogenetics.
Liberals won't believe in genetics for another couple of decades, so until that happens, they'll continue to accept no dissent from kids born outside their neurogenetic cluster.
Better to let kids find the path that's right for them, rather than try to strong-arm them.


i disagree.
i am not dismissing your point or what you experienced.i am sure thats what you saw but what i experienced was disgraceful and far different.
i'll give you a few examples:
i received an email everyday outlining my classes.
not only did it include what i was expected to cover but suggestions on how to teach the material.the data was strictly outlined down to parameters and time.
homework assignments and tests were not done by me.
i was not allowed any (well,very little) leeway in the curriculum.
no deviation was allowed.
so if i taught you that england amended the balfour declaration in 1922 after it's ratification in 1917.
what did you learn?
NOTHING.you learned a name and a date that is all.something to answer on a quiz.without context there is no learning.
if i can't get kids (i was teaching 8th graders at the time) to start to think for themselves by giving them the tools to dissect complex problems and all they end up doing is memorization then i have FAILED as a teacher.
NCLB (no child left behind) is set up for these kids to fail,creating little testing machines with no substantive tools to tackle the actual complexities of life.
this has nothing to do with liberal or conservative.the only politics being played out in the school system is the politics on capital hill and the kids are paying the price.
and here is something to think about....
those kids grow up.

there were many reasons why i left before the first semester was over and some of it was the politics.
politics from the federal government all the way to the school i worked at.
it disgusted me.it also saddened me how poorly educated many of the teachers were in the classes they were teaching.english lit majors teaching math.physics professors teaching general science.
it made no sense.
my first duty was to the kids in my opinion.
and my number ONE job was to get them passionate about learning by any means possible.
i was told..repeatedly i will admit..to stick to the course agendas.
the agenda was too fast paced and most of these kids were getting lost in the grooves.
blah...im ranting..
anyways..this is why i agree with chomsky.
i have seen the indoctrination at work and it does not serve the public nor the kids.

Enoch?

How dare you imply that instead of consumer zombies we want articulated and knowledgeable citizens? The very idea is anti-american and makes you sound like a communist...

Are you a card carrying member?

What a cynic. I didn't have a great schooling experience. I was often at odds with Luddite school administrators. I had my share of terrible teachers. But I don't see this as a conspiracy by the politically powerful to make us conformists. It's just laziness.

Teaching towards exams and tests is faulty, that's the flaw of No Child Left Behind.

We didn't really have grades until like 9th grade (~16 years) where we had our first exams.

>> ^rychan:
What a cynic. I didn't have a great schooling experience. I was often at odds with Luddite school administrators. I had my share of terrible teachers. But I don't see this as a conspiracy by the politically powerful to make us conformists. It's just laziness.


consent doesn't manufacture itself. smart people like me don't trust the government or the media, but is it really possible that the public would think they deserve this government? Deserve this crappy media? i wonder.

enoch, you can't teach history without a bunch of dates and names. If you want to talk about teaching problem solving, take a subject where there are actual problems to solve. Like mathematics or physics...

Knowing history is remembering who did what, when and where, and what was the impact on future events. Usually the point of history classes is to teach the bigger picture, but you can't exactly say "and then x and then y and then z..." without any timeframes etc.

And you yourself said that many of the teachers were poorly educated. I guess it's good to not let them teach their own bullshit but to follow the curriculum designed by smarter and better educated people. Also looking at your writing I suspect you're not very highly educated either.

I think many of the shortcomings of the education system are shortcomings on the part of the academics who design the curriculums. Problem solving in the sense of how to optimally manage our intelligence would be a great thing to teach. Even PhDs don't get taught that, though.

Teaching these areas would be a great start : Cognitive science, decision theory, intelligence research, game theory, behavioral economics, risk management, cognitive bias, and rationalism.

(Wikipedia links on those subjects are here: http://www.videosift.com/video/For-all-my-Athiest-friends-on-The-Sift?loadcomm=1#comment-744091)

I also highly recommend Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers. (People who like reading books on their computer could find the PDF here)

While I understand your viewpoint to a certain degree, there is a big difference in teaching children the same government approved, lowest-common understanding bullshit and actually challenging kids to make up their own mind based on facts and understanding. To say that someone who has a higher education is automaticly better equipped to teach people than teachers who have a deeper understanding of events is fundamentally wrong imo. And btw, I have no idea what enoch's qualifications are, but I sympathise with his viewpoints here. The teachers that inspired me the most were people who were able to see past the set curriculum and were able to give me a deeper understanding of history, philosophy etc. From there on out you base your understanding on facts and how to interpret historical facts (on a large scale).
>> ^ajkido:
enoch, you can't teach history without a bunch of dates and names. If you want to talk about teaching problem solving, take a subject where there are actual problems to solve. Like mathematics or physics...
Knowing history is remembering who did what, when and where, and what was the impact on future events. Usually the point of history classes is to teach the bigger picture, but you can't exactly say "and then x and then y and then z..." without any timeframes etc.
And you yourself said that many of the teachers were poorly educated. I guess it's good to not let them teach their own bullshit but to follow the curriculum designed by smarter and better educated people. Also looking at your writing I suspect you're not very highly educated either.

ive been having an ongoing discussion with my friend, a teacher, throughout his years in grad school. we email back and forth about his classes, i help him write and edit his papers, and he lets me read his textbooks when hes finished with them.

one of his most interesting classes hes had to date is something like the history of education in the republic.
the public school system was created, not to educate and enlighten the masses, but to create a literate post industrial revolution workforce and to instill patriotism. not much has changed. the goal is still to grow people to happily fuel the work force, and of course, to instill patriotism. not to teach you to think outside of the box, not to encourage creativity, not to inspire future problem solvers; simply to fill available positions to keep the economy going and with the shift out of factories and into walmarts, we need to grow alot of little consumers to buy all the shit were selling at our jobs.

and now of course, universities bring lots of jobs to communities, so weve had to dumb those down alot too so that everyone can go to college. it was not meant for everyone to go to college. and now that we think it is, the classes are grossly dumbed down and filled with all the morons you went to high school with. and now you need a fucking a bachelors degree to work in retail.

I was sent to a private school, and as such we had no shortage of competent teachers, but I don't have a single example of a teacher who inspired me. It wasn't until uni that I met inspirational lecturers.

As for the 'what is history' question, I don't believe history is a set of dates and events. IMO, history is the critical interpretation and understanding of these events, and history teachers are probably best place to instill critical faculty in students.

>> ^ajkido:
enoch, you can't teach history without a bunch of dates and names. If you want to talk about teaching problem solving, take a subject where there are actual problems to solve. Like mathematics or physics...
Knowing history is remembering who did what, when and where, and what was the impact on future events. Usually the point of history classes is to teach the bigger picture, but you can't exactly say "and then x and then y and then z..." without any timeframes etc.
And you yourself said that many of the teachers were poorly educated. I guess it's good to not let them teach their own bullshit but to follow the curriculum designed by smarter and better educated people. Also looking at your writing I suspect you're not very highly educated either.




wow.
your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance.
you go right ahead scooter and let people tell you what and how to think.
great job in missing my point then turning around and making it for me.
thanks buddy!

one small note on your little snide remark about my butchering the english language.
while i am a professional,here is something to think about:
if sentence structure and grammar are a sign of intelligence or a higher education ernest hemmingway would never have had one sentence published.

my POINT,
you know..the one you missed...
is that public education is set up to stagnate.
i was reprimanded for teaching in a way not according to NCLB guidelines.
tests are arbitrary and are an obtuse and vague determination of not only what you have learned by HOW you can or may apply it to other areas.
my job,in my opinion,was to get kids to THINK not memorize.
yet that was the very thing the school system was forcing me to do.
i rebelled,because thats what i do when faced with something so morally WRONG.
you say history is only names and dates.
realy?...REALLY?
because if what you say is true then you dont know history.
you may know names and dates but you dont UNDERSTAND and that was your teachers job.one in which im guessing they failed.
good god man!history,civics,the social sciences and literature all can teach you ways of thinking and viewing the world which can be hugely beneficial to you in the years to come.
names and dates.../shakes head..sheesh.
you want to judge my intelligence and knowledge by my sentence structure thats your choice.i really dont give a rats ass,but dont expect me to take you seriously when you regurgitate the same indoctrinational vomit thats been fed to you and tell me it is "education".
its not.
knowledge without mileage=bullshit.

i'll follow up my comment with this:

i had incredibly, amazing high school teachers.
they didn't really "teach" me much in the way of curriculum (evidenced by the fact that i found mischief in boredom)
but they were encouraging, respectable, respectful, caring, loving, patient adults who really were concerned with my wellbeing, at a time in my life when i needed an adult who cared.

OK, maybe I should have given a longer description about what knowing history is, but I certainly didn't say it's ONLY dates and names. I'd still say it's hardly more than remembering a lot of stuff.

Even understanding that x caused y is usually specific for its time period and thus understanding one event doesn't lead to understanding all events with similar circumstances. And "understanding that x caused y" is basically the same as "remembering that x caused y" when it comes to knowing history.

Also I'm not American and I can't exactly relate to the public school system of the US, so I can't speak much about the exact details of the teaching, but I can however criticize enoch's arguments (which are still very hard to read...)

Edit: and btw, enoch, in my opinion it would help a lot if you gave an example of the way you think teachers SHOULD teach (history for example).

[clear evidence of a mental breakdown redacted]

Enoch - bravo!

Most of my teachers through school were textbook folk, who never once made me question or challenge anything. I had one teacher in high school who inspired me, but turns out I annoyed the hell out of him, and he doesn't like to talk to me anymore (I see him around my small hometown when I go back for visits). I don't know what that means.

I was usually resented by my teachers because A) I was on several sports teams (unlike anyone else in my classes) B) My father was a politician who was vocal about his views (anyone from a small town knows what small town politics are like) and C) I had friends among the jocks, the nerds, and the 'bad crowd', which drove teachers and school administrators crazy. Most teachers tend not to like students they can't pigeonhole.

My parents always took a deep interest in my education (IMHO the MOST important factor in childhood education), and my parents supplemented my education with what they thought was lacking (typically with current events, camping/hunting skills, and a morality that one doesn't find in the public system). My mom almost sent me to a renowned all-boys school, but I protested vehemently (no offense to anyone here, but I didn't like those uniformed snobby pricks).

University can be fun, but in my field I find that folks are either completely unquestioningly dependent and loyal to a political party ideology (party volunteers and/or staffers), great at studying dates and names but without an eye for political strategy (bureaucrats), unaffiliated whackos (hard-core feminists, anarchists, etc.), or dumbass fratboy rich-kids who only got in because daddy was alumni and made a generous contribution. Of course, not everyone fits into these categories, but far too many do.

We need more teachers like Enoch. The robots might as well go work in a factory somewhere.

Discussion of video > content of video.

*politics

Adding video to channels (Politics) - requested by NetRunner.