I'll upvote for the point that he's making. But given most mindset of 'net trolls everywhere, I highly doubt they'll care enough to bother doing less or stopping it. Because the impression I get from randomly browsing through forums, mediums, and the likes, trolls don't give a rats ass about anyone's opinions because they don't give a damn 'bout anyone else.

In other words, I can't be bothered to waste my time arguing against trolls when the trolls themselves have no intellectual capacity to think about what they are saying or what they are arguing about.

I wouldn't say they all don't give a shit as much as that's the atmosphere, and many people -- teenagers especially -- just follow whatever other people are doing without thinking of the consequences for others. But they're also given no social cues that what they're doing is wrong. If there were even a vocal minority, it would be less comfortable for them, and they would have to consider their actions. Like when I was a teenager, there were all sorts of things that I did that (to me now) were obviously wrong and victimizing, but it wasn't until someone made me focus on the consequences that I really consdiered them, and after that, I couldn't enjoy doing it anymore.

All the idiots on 4chan certainly aren't like me, but I'm sure a lot of them are, and it takes very little to turn them, considering that being mean isn't really in their personalities to begin with, just as it was never really in mine -- I was just a sheep in the herd.

That said, places like 4chan specifically attract douchebags, so it's a self-selecting group of low-empathy jackasses who will never change. IMO, this will be more effective in places like Reddit where mysogynist behaviour pops up from time to time, and there isn't already a culture built around being a shithead.

Even then though, if someone says something about inappropriate talk against women at 4chan and there's a strong reaction to it, at least they're talking about it, engaging with the idea, and spreading the meme (that's "meme" in the original sense of a transferred piece of cultural information, not in the "internet meme" sense).>> ^sixshot:

I'll upvote for the point that he's making. But given most mindset of 'net trolls everywhere, I highly doubt they'll care enough to bother doing less or stopping it. Because the impression I get from randomly browsing through forums, mediums, and the likes, trolls don't give a rats ass about anyone's opinions because they don't give a damn 'bout anyone else.
In other words, I can't be bothered to waste my time arguing against trolls when the trolls themselves have no intellectual capacity to think about what they are saying or what they are arguing about.

^ That. Thanks, @messenger. Right on, my friend.

*promote

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Monday, June 18th, 2012 5:32pm PDT - promote requested by messenger.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'jay smooth, gamers, bullying, anita sarkeesian' to 'jay smooth, gamers, bullying, anita sarkeesian, misogyny' - edited by messenger

Upvote the orbital logic strike.

You had me at "You can't beat her, intellectually, without using a cheat code."

Hmmmmmm......commenting on stuff just because someone else said something negative despite knowing nothing more than what this guy has said in this video.........

That seems like white-knight trolling to me. When you're only interest in the topic is that someone said something negative about someone/something and you are otherwise completely uninformed on what is happening.

Is it OK that someone is bullying someone else? No. But I also don't know what the first person did to person the second off, if it's based on something or just random..... white knighting is a great way to undermine someone's ability to stand up for themselves. Doing it without them asking or being asked directly for your opinion on it, may not necessarily be helping.....it's more feeding the troll.

So, I disagree with him.

I look at it like this.... If I ask generally for an opinion on someone/something, like a car or a game. If there's handful of people who say nothing but negative things about it, but generally don't seem to be making comments based on experience...it's a waste of time for them to post it and me to read. Then I get double that amount of people showing up to give nothing but positive reviews because of those negative reviews, again these are a complete waste of their time and my time and are generally based on zero experience with thing I asked about.

The reviews that mean the most are the ones who express an opinion that seems informed, and if they base it off similar thought out reviews saying why they disagree....even better.

I can easily cull uninformed overly negative and overly positive review with time. But why waste your time and my time with these pointless commentaries? It makes it worse if you comment only because you wanted to make another uninformed comment just because you didn't like another uninformed comment.


So, white knighting is pretty much defending something that shouldn't need defended, because stupid comments are obvious. And if it's spread beyond the internet, then she needs the police and not more people commenting worthless time-wasting crap.


When I was younger, much like messenger I used to do stupid shit...I grew up before the internet really was available. During more BBS-based internet than the internet as we know it now. And would do stupid stuff such as gang up on people in comments and what not. But the other pendulum of "stupid stuff" was being overly defensive on behalf of women. They were very rarely thankful for it, assuming they were even really women.

So just take a "who cares what they are doing" approach unless you are interested in their content (not their boobs, or interested in sleeping with them, etc except if their content is their boobs/sex/etc...just don't expect them to ever notice you...ever.). And if they want to do something controversial and rile up the dumb asses on the internet, that's their choice and you SHOULDN'T have to defend them. Defend the project, defend their ability to choose, but it's not your place to white-knight for them. You'll feel stupid later when all your efforts go unnoticed by your "hero"/heart-throb/crush/whatever and you're stuck with a bunch of people who now hate your ass and you have nothing to show for your efforts. The people you defend will let you hang, there's too many white-knights for them to return the favor when you attract the attention of people who take it a little too far and start taking it off the internet. Or in other words, this guy and that woman don't give a shit about you if it were happening to you.

>> ^Porksandwich:
Defend the project, defend their ability to choose, but it's not your place to white-knight for them. You'll feel stupid later when all your efforts go unnoticed by your "hero"/heart-throb/crush/whatever and you're stuck with a bunch of people who now hate your ass and you have nothing to show for your efforts. The people you defend will let you hang, there's too many white-knights for them to return the favor when you attract the attention of people who take it a little too far and start taking it off the internet. Or in other words, this guy and that woman don't give a shit about you if it were happening to you.


I came to say this. Left satisfied.

Yes because a man who says something sensible about sexism is CLEARLY only doing it for attention from the opposite sex. white knites amirite.

You know, same way that when I get my mad on about some racist fuck I'm only really doing it so I can hang wit the black kids. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

You know, its not even about protecting those fragile little flowers or w.e. Its about my hobby being crapped upon by inconsiderate fucks. I want to be able to tell a girl that I play games online without feeling some kind of shame because 90% of my peers would ask her for a sandwhich if she came on mumble/ventrilo/teamspeak. I want to be able to play with my speakers on when my sister is in the adjacent room.

So fuck your "who cares attitude" tbh.

>> ^Jinx:

Yes because a man who says something sensible about sexism is CLEARLY only doing it for attention from the opposite sex. white knites amirite.
You know, same way that when I get my mad on about some racist fuck I'm only really doing it so I can hang wit the black kids. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
You know, its not even about protecting those fragile little flowers or w.e. Its about my hobby being crapped upon by inconsiderate fucks. I want to be able to tell a girl that I play games online without feeling some kind of shame because 90% of my peers would ask her for a sandwhich if she came on mumble/ventrilo/teamspeak. I want to be able to play with my speakers on when my sister is in the adjacent room.
So fuck your "who cares attitude" tbh.


So you are doing it for your sister, great. I'll assume you have some vested interest in her and she has some vested interest in you.

If you spend your days seeking out people to defend with no other reason than someone tells you to or you think they need defended, you're going to spend all of your time doing just that.

At least if you pick topics or people you are have some interest in, it will be for something that you at least know a little bit about and maybe care about. Otherwise you are about as relevant as the "First!" posts. If her project is based on the portrayal of women in video games and she gets a bunch of chauvinistic comments to go along with it, why would someone trying to make a conclusion want those messages cut off or diluted by people who come to knight it out because some guy says so? I think the comments give her topic some real meat and extra depths for her to explore. Having non-involved white-knighters showing up because some random guy says to, NOT to represent gamers (he comes off as very anti-gamer with his "gamer dude troll" comments, always thought trolls were trolls myself) but to do it because someone on the internet is being mean to someone whose topic is looking into the portrayal of women in video games....whose also a woman.

If you care about the topic, great. If you're doing it just because, you're weakening her conclusions by adding in outliers who wouldn't have shown up if not for this guy. She chose the topic, let her stand by it and support her if you care about the project. If her project is being funded, people care. If people are just badmouthing and not funding, they don't know or don't care.

I mean hell some of the commentary starts to wear on me, but acknowledging trolls just makes them come back...because they are there for the response, the more outrageous the better. I mean this is rule 1 for dealing with trolls, Dont Feed The Trolls. If they are "dangerous trolls" like he claims, involve the authorities. None of the white-knights on the internet are going to be able to do shit for her besides make it worse. Send her private email/message/whatever and tell her your opinion, but Don't Feed The Trolls. Responding only to comments against trolls, is feeding them. Ignoring and discussing the project is not feeding them, and it actually really gets under their skin when you ignore them....they move on to more fertile ground when nothing comes from their efforts.

Random comments on the internet used to bug the shit out of me, and I felt the need to reply. It's far easier on the blood pressure and nerves to just put them on ignore and put them out of your mind. They are too ignorant to save or need to age and get some perspective as to what really matters to them (and making stupid comments on the internet will hopefully get lower and lower on that list).

And don't take this the wrong way. I am not saying you shouldn't defend people, but jumping into things with no more reason than someone told you to is just inviting trouble.

@Porksandwich honey -- you are missing who this video is directed to. It is directed at non-trolls. Period.

Speak up, is all it is saying.

There is more and more bullying in the world and people have stayed silent long enough.

I'm not going to repeat this amazing man's point of view. He says it brilliantly.

Why don't you listen to it a couple of times, and see if you can figure out what he is trying to say, instead of constructing a false argument? And doesn't he even address this tendency in comment streams? I don't remember.

Anyway. This guy is great.

And thanks to @messenger again for being a fierce advocate of it. I am grateful.

>> ^bareboards2:

@Porksandwich honey -- you are missing who this video is directed to. It is directed at non-trolls. Period.
Speak up, is all it is saying.
There is more and more bullying in the world and people have stayed silent long enough.
I'm not going to repeat this amazing man's point of view. He says it brilliantly.
Why don't you listen to it a couple of times, and see if you can figure out what he is trying to say, instead of constructing a false argument? And doesn't he even address this tendency in comment streams? I don't remember.
Anyway. This guy is great.
And thanks to @messenger again for being a fierce advocate of it. I am grateful.


Shrug, I guess show me a couple cases where trying to debate against people who show an unreasonable -ist, -ism, etc of any kind on the internet and has made someone change their opinion. Changing one person's mind is hard enough in person, doing it on the internet when they are being reinforced by a group who has similar beliefs........you're going to wear out keyboards. By all means if you feel strongly about it, go ahead. But like I said, doing it because this guy says to or him saying that it needs to be done...you're just bringing a lot of stress upon yourself trying to engage or speak out against people who won't listen to what you have to say.

Ignore/approval/administration/sanction/ban tool improvements would serve you better. And if moves beyond the internet, that's where the police should come into play...doing anything about it at that point would be breaking the law more than likely.

Plus until someone asks for it or clearly needs the help, it's really not your place to get involved. Hell they might get some twisted pleasure out of troll baiting and be doing it on purpose. It's just not worth it until it's clear that what is happening is against THEIR sensibilities and beyond their ability to deal with it. Much like stepping into a fight between a husband and wife, arguing might be their "thing" and you just end up with two people pissed at you.

IE, If I were having a private conversation on someone's wall here and neither of us were telling the other to stop. I'd be really pissed and very offended if they were reading private messages that don't involve anyone else but me and said person. If they stepped in to defend the other person from me and banned/sanctioned/whatevered me... does it make sense?

If it involves you, someone you know who would expect you to do something about it, or something you have ownership or involvement with, great go at it. If it's someone else's stuff, or a conversation not involving you.........you're sticking your nose into things looking for an argument. IE, going around looking to be offended, is going to end up with you being offended.

And it's not that I don't get pissed at when people mock many groups of people, especially if I am of that group. But it's just unrealistic to stop that activity on every site you visit, you'd be lucky to control ONE website that you own due to how many IPs, handles, etc ways there are to connect and post. Give yourself a stroke trying to stamp it out, it'd require thought crime technology to effectively stop it. Defend the corners you visit, but realize. Like Youtube, if it's very popular, it's unlikely. Keep reasonable expectations. I realize lots of things are wrong, but I also realize there is shit-all I can do about a lot of them. Internet commentary is definitely one of those. Ignore said person and move on.

@Porksandwich sweetpea, you didn't listen to it again, did you?

Shrug.

>> ^bareboards2:

@Porksandwich sweetpea, you didn't listen to it again, did you?
Shrug.


1:16-1:50, he basically agrees that arguing with them is pointless.

3:20-3:35, he says to cover your scene for this stuff. But again what are you accomplishing if a massive wave of people come in bent on trolling? He's already admitted they have no rational thought to it, or are deluded.

So.......not sure what else I am supposed to draw from this. He points out one woman and one project and complains about the harassment toward her. It sounds an awful lot like he expects people who watch his video (since he mentions that his viewers should be watching her stuff too) to go do this on her material.

Guess I'm trolling at this point, because I am clearly not seeing the point of shouting down trolls....it's what they WANT. Much like changing your culture/way of life/choices due to terrorism, you're playing right into what they WANT you to do. Correcting someone who makes a kind of insulting statement who normally doesn't is often rude....so I don't see where his audience could apply this.

I'll do a for example: the honey and sweetpea comes off as condescending whether meant to be or not. Has a "I am addressing a child" tone to it. Normally I'd just overlook it, because I don't expect that from you......BUT applying his example of speaking out against down-talk/harassment/bullying. Is it accomplishing anything? I really doubt it, maybe you just talk that way. Maybe I am overplaying it. If you were purposefully trolling everyone you felt was disagreeing with you..would you stop doing it? Maybe other people like you talking that way and are now going to be pissed I pointed it out, you can't meet everyone's standards. That's why a billion different sites exist on the internet.

@Porksandwich

Enough with the projection. In all your comments, you assume that you know some deeper motivation than what this guy and I have already said. I'm not trying to pick up women or even get noticed at all. Being nice isn't about me; it's about the person I'm helping. Sorry that your slimy pick-up method of being nice to women unasked-for and expecting sexual interest as repayment hasn't worked out for you, but that's your sad shit and not mine. Get over it and learn how to be nice selflessly, and you might find you attract more women when they see you're not expecting something. And even if you don't do anything overt to show you're expecting their attention in return, women can smell it on you like shit on a pig farmer. It's in the way you stand, hold your shoulders, look around, cock your ear, etc. It all tells a story of creepiness and deception.

In the meantime, when I see a woman being bashed because she's a woman, I'm gonna continue to speak my mind and expect nothing in return except the good feeling for having helped another human being, even if it's only by giving her the feeling there's someone on her side, but hopefully it will also affect the behaviour of some of the people who are doing the bashing, if not now, down the road.

He shoulda shown us his tits.

I think this now safely qualifies as *controversy.

Adding video to channels (Controversy) - requested by messenger.

As far as trolls go the only way to win is not to play.

It is the silence in the face of gay bashing, female bashing, minority bashing by non-trolls that is being addressed by this video.

Speak up. Not to the trolls. But in support of gays, women, minorities. That is how you change the culture.

It is the staying silent that creates a toxic environment. Reclaim the space for yourself.

Oh well. Controversy indeed.

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