Lord Tywin reveals his knowledge of Arya's ruse - S2E7

SPOILERS if you are not up to S2E7 of GAME of THRONES
deathcowsays...

Love this scene.... someone on a forum laid out all the layers nicely:

Tywin doesn't want anyone else finding out Arya's secret, since only him knowing about it keeps him in a power position - as such it is a genuine advice on how to maintain her cover.

At the same time it is a power play move. Since Arya is trying to hide an important secret from Tywin, she considers herself in an empowered position to him. That could be ok for a while, but he doesn't want her to get too comfortable thinking she's outsmarted him - he's reminding her that he's the one in power.

But it works as relationship trust building - Tywin is showing that he has also had a secret (= knowing Arya's secret) from her, and by revealing it he shows he's now placing more trust to her. Even further, he shows that even though she'd had a secret from him he has chosen to both ignore her mistrust and keep her secret safe from others.

The move also places Arya in subtle social debt. Tywin has now revealed a secret to her, while at the same time making sure she no longer has a chance to reveal it herself. This makes her be in social dept to him, and now her only social reciprocity option is to revel some further secret, like who she actually is.

But all that trust building also works as social "entrapment". Tywin is probably also be aiming at making Arya more at ease, so she might accidentally slip her cover and reveal a significant clue to her true identity.

This is all made more powerful by Tywin's way of revealing the secret by not directly stating that there was any secret between them. He doesn't say "Girl, I know you're trying to hide you're a highborn but you can't fool me", but instead he plays it like they've both all the time been conspiring together. This, in the surface level, places them in the same company, sharing a secret, which makes it more hard for Arya to keep a further secret (her identity) from him - especially since they are in fact now sharing the secret. Of course, both of them do clearly understand what happened, but usually humans cannot completely disconnect the surface level - the trick still works, whether you know it's a just a game. He also does the same in-grouping by quite genuinely placing them both in the same group or "clever people" - which clearly works, too, as is revealed by Arya's warm smile at the end of the scene.

But in midst of all this, it also seems he genuinely likes her company. Tywin clearly appreciates skills in intelligence and cunning, and Arya has displayed both. It also seems he appreciates the way she states her opinions somewhat frankly, it's the sort of feedback which a man in his position doesn't get often.

.. and having all of this in a one simple, small scene is why I really love the show!

radxsays...

Lord Tywin is not particularly fond of quips, as the Imp can attest. His appreciation of intellect and cunning is probably the reason for his leniency towards a cupbearer with a loose tongue, even one of noble birth.

HenningKOsaid:

When Arya asks "Have you met MANY stonemasons?" She's being too clever for me... I don't get it. Is that a jab? Why is THAT the line that tweaks Tywin so?

ChaosEnginesays...

Tywin is a cold, calculating magnificent bastard, and in the books that's really all he is.

One of the reasons I love this scene (and it's substantially different from the books, where Arya never meets Tywin) is that it humanises Tywin somewhat.

Some fiction likes to portray the bad guys as inhuman monsters, but in reality most people (even the very worst) are not like that. They came to where they are through a series of small steps, each more horrific than the last, but each justified in their own mind.

That, to me, is far scarier than the likes of Joffrey or the Mountain. Joffrey is just broken, and Ser Gregor is almost literally a monster. But Tywin made himself into what he is.

And that's the brilliance of this story. When you can feel sympathy for a character whose first significant act is to push a small boy out a window because he was saw him engaged in incest, you have a good writer.

FlowersInHisHairsays...

And yet, Lord Tywin never asks himself "What high-born girl could possibly have reason to be hiding in Harrenhal as a common cupbearer? What family could she be from, that she might be on the run?".
It really is a great scene though. My favourite in the whole series so far.

Yogisays...

Jeoffrey is easily the dumbest character on that fucking show. Whenever he's on screen it's just so the writers can remind you "Oh btw don't forget he's a little shit." It's not interesting, he's not well written or even someone I'd care if they killed off. Just keep him in the background if anything, hell fire the actor and hire a new one each week, it wouldn't matter because he's that shit.

ChaosEnginesaid:

Tywin is a cold, calculating magnificent bastard, and in the books that's really all he is.

One of the reasons I love this scene (and it's substantially different from the books, where Arya never meets Tywin) is that it humanises Tywin somewhat.

Some fiction likes to portray the bad guys as inhuman monsters, but in reality most people (even the very worst) are not like that. They came to where they are through a series of small steps, each more horrific than the last, but each justified in their own mind.

That, to me, is far scarier than the likes of Joffrey or the Mountain. Joffrey is just broken, and Ser Gregor is almost literally a monster. But Tywin made himself into what he is.

And that's the brilliance of this story. When you can feel sympathy for a character whose first significant act is to push a small boy out a window because he was saw him engaged in incest, you have a good writer.

MilkmanDansays...

Something that I don't get about Tywin (book or movie version):

He's cold, logical, practical, intelligent, cunning. His relationships with his children mostly make sense given the way he operates.

Cersei advanced his family name by marrying King Robert, which was good. But she makes stupid decisions, takes unnecessary risks, and arrogantly thinks that none of this will catch up with her. Tywin correctly identifies her key weakness being that she thinks she is much more clever than she actually is.

Jamie could be a reasonably useful chess piece in Tywin's arsenal, but by Lannister standards he isn't as cunning and "big picture" intelligent as Tywin is, or even Cersei. I'd say Jamie knows his own limitations in that regard way better than Cersei though. During the Targaryen reign, his position in the Kingsguard would have been potentially useful, but that turns for the worse when he sullies the family name by becoming the "Kingslayer", even if his actions were justified. His Kingsguard position and skillset in general become much less useful during Robert's rule, which further hurts his relationship with Tywin. All still makes sense from a cold, calculating perspective.

Then you get to Tyrion. Tywin has an antagonistic relationship with Tyrion, and seems to refuse to see that Tyrion is the best bet to take over the reins of House Lannister after Tywin himself is gone. I know that it is suggested that Tywin's bias against Tyrion comes from the combination of A) him "killing" his mother in childbirth and B) being born a "freak" dwarf. I have a hard time with that because I see Tywin as being too cold, logical, and pragmatic to let either of those issues cloud his judgement.

So Tyrion "killed" his mother (Tywin's wife). Perhaps that event had a profound effect on Tywin, but considering the way he plays his children as pawns on his chessboard, it seems more in his character for him to have viewed his wife that way also. Especially considering the normal state of noble marriages being primarily chosen to maximize political gain in the setting. Plus, mothers dying during childbirth probably wouldn't be an exceptionally uncommon thing in the setting either.

And Tyrion being a dwarf? So what -- Tywin only cares about what you can do to advance the family name. Tyrion could easily be groomed to take over as family mastermind while keeping Cersei, Jamie, or one of Cersei's children as the public face of the family. Pay no attention to the man, er, dwarf behind the curtain.

I guess I just find Tywin's relationship with Tyrion to be the one thing about his character that feels ... off, at least to me. I feel like Tywin would be more ready to give Tyrion some opportunities to prove himself, and less subjective about judging his performance in those situations.

radxsays...

@MilkmanDan

A) "Lord Tywin might rule House Lannister, but Lady Joanna ruled Tywin."

Just paraphrasing, of course, but Joanna was not just Tywin's wife. It is said, she was the only one to ever make him smile and his trusted advisor and companion. Kevan took her spot as Tywin's trusted advisor, but her death left a void, never to be filled again.

So Tyrion didn't just "kill" his wife, his birth marked the end of Tywin's only connection to a life beyond his cold, calculating self.

B) Tywin had plans for his twins, yet the tourney at Harrenhal put an end to that, sort of, leaving him with the Imp as his heir and only bargaining chip for alliances through marriage. Nothing to condemn Tyrion for, but I would assume it turned Tywin even more bitter than he already was.

Most importantly though, I think Tyrion's marriage to Tysha broke the camel's back. In the eyes of Tywin, Lord Tytos, his father, brought shame upon House Lannister by parading his lowborn mistress around Casterly Rock, wearing the garments and jewelry of Tytos' deceased wife, Tywin's mother. To see his own son with a lowborn girl, just like the father he had despised to much... it's a wonder he didn't put Tyrion into an oubliette below the Rock.

I'd say Tywin knows very well that Tyrion is much more like him than Cersei and Jaime could ever be. Tywin's sister Genna had the right of it when she proclaimed Tyrion to truly be his father's son. And as much as he follows Tywin's lead, Kevan must have told him as much as well.

But between Tyrion's marriage to a lowborn girl, his whoring, his loose tongue and fondness of japes and quips, there's too much about him that rubs Tywin the wrong way.

Draxsays...

I believe Tywin gets a bit peeved at her "Have you met many stone masons, My Lord?" comment because he picks up that she's suggesting he's ignorant of how well educated a typical stone mason may be.

Obviously Tywin's right (and they both know this), nearly all are likely illiterate in their world. What she's actually doing is getting defensive about her father (for obvious reason that aren't known to Tywin. (She's protective of his memory)). He only knows she was taking a subtle stab at him in her (late) father's defense.

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