*promote

Self promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008 9:57pm PDT - promote requested by original submitter blankfist.

Finally, some Americans I like.

This has become a self fulfilling prophesy...

The police have openly aggravated the protestors, then cite their increase agitation as a reason to crack down more harshly on them.

I'm sure the guy carrying the guitar case was a huge threat and needed mace'ing as well...

He brought it on himself. No backup, going into a crowd. What an idiot.

Uhh, that's not 'civil disobedience.' Not disagreeing with the content, just the labeling. Capice?

>> ^shuac:
Uhh, that's not 'civil disobedience.' Not disagreeing with the content, just the labeling. Capice?

I'm interested where people think the line is.

To me this football tackle by a skinny black block kid against an ape of a cop looks like force without violence(the definition of Gandhi's Satyagraha). Sure the cop was confused, and disoriented, but I see no sign of physical harm, and no indication that anybody was even trying to hurt him (no batons or rocks, no WMD wielded by the protesters).

CD is not all about sitting down and taking your beating, that's just the state propaganda line attempting to convince everybody that if they don't take their beating they are being "violent".

What if protesters started arresting cops by grabbing a limb and sitting on it, no twisted fingers, no hitting, just immobilizing through superior numbers/mass, would you consider that "violence"?

When the only way you have left to protest your right of freedom and equality, is placing your very self into harms way, that is what you're left with.

The police, led by the federal government and the GOP, have shown that they do not care about our laws. They do not care about our constitution. And when the enforcement arm of the machine evolves into tyranny, it is every American's right to fight back, with force, to disable the gears and levers that run that machine.

*THIS* is why we have the 2nd amendment. And also why many, many, many democrats, liberals, progressives, etc, believe very strongly in 2nd amendment rights.

^That's just stupid.

The police are led by the feds and the GOP?

Get real.

Body slamming a police officer IS assault.
I'd like to see anyone argue against that FACT.

Assault is NOT civil disobedience.

Yes, the cop was stupid for going into a crowd like that all by himself, but he could have had a very valid reason for arresting that kid.

No, the guy with the guitar case may not have deserved to be sprayed, but it was a very appropriate reaction to his situation.

MG: The FBI has been very involved in the raids and arrests in St.Paul.

"Deputies coordinated searches with the Minneapolis and St. Paul police departments and the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/08/30/more_raids/?refid=0


here's a woman holding a flower, being peppersprayed in the face by police in riot gear:
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/09/01/pepper.mpg


Helicopters, humvees, nat'l guard, FBI, riot-cops, tear gas, beatings. What more do we need to understand that these people don't give one shit about our constitution?

You keep saying "he could have had a valid reason" every time you see the cops abuse their power, and inflict violent rage on people. Why assume this ever again, when proven wrong, time and time again?

As I read elsewhere today:
"In Denver, the police prepared for protests. In St.Paul, the police prepared for the apocalypse"

Lordy-Lou, after about a year of visits and six months of VS membership, I can finally point to a post by Choggie that I a) understand and b) agree with. Be on the lookout for men on horseback, about four of them...

@ dgandhi: Let me be clear. These folks have the right to protest. I would never dream of altering the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CD is not all about sitting down and taking your beating, that's just the state propaganda line attempting to convince everybody that if they don't take their beating they are being "violent".

>> ^shuac:
Now, I'm not sure how many foot-pounds of pressure was the blow to your head that made you think tackling a cop is civil, but I assure you: it is not.

Yelling at a cop to "let him go" is also "not civil", but I doubt you would argue it was not consistent with CD. While hard core Gandhians would have simply boxed the cop in and taken CS full to the face, while not letting him leave with his captive, that does not mean that that is all that CD consists of.

While black-blocking is certainly not a CD tactic, that does not mean that CD is not what happened here. Whereas rocks or sticks, or a pileon-beatdown situation could have been consistent with black-blocking, none of that happened, there was not even a hint of such overt attempts at harming the officer in question. They were far more civil then their attire suggests their tactics require.

Civility is a matter of degrees, where "pure" civility excludes disobedience, CD is not at that extreme. The question is : How much/what kind of force is appropriate in CD when dealing with traitorous riot cops? The answer is not none.

P.S.

I just watched it again, the "tackle" is much more mild then I though before, observe the fact that the protester placed his hand, palm flat, on the officers shoulder, and leaned in, not against anything, just off balance. If you complained to a cop that somebody did that to you, they would tell you to stop whining.

^And if a cop did that to you, you would whine all fucking day and all fucking night about how the cop was being "brutal" and attacked you.


HELLO, DOUBLE STANDARDS!

p.s.

To all those crying "Police state!":
You all really don't know how much freedom you truly have.
I'm pretty sure it was Lovell who said "You don't realize what you have until it's gone."

Has Bush pissed on the constitution? Yes. Does that mean we no longer have freedoms? Fuck no.

And just because the FBI works with local P.D. does not mean every P.D. around the country is in the pocket of the federal government of John fucking Mcain.

For the love of God, get real.
It's one thing to say the PD is under control by the federal gov't.

It's completely asinine to say that republicans control it as well.

God bless the red white and blue reich.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
I'm pretty sure it was Lovell who said "You don't realize what you have until it's gone."

I believe that was Cinderella.

You would be right. But I think everyone has said that by now....

MarineGunrock:
^And if a cop did that to you, you would whine all fucking day and all fucking night about how the cop was being "brutal" and attacked you.

Well seeing as such things have happened, and cops push with clubs, not soft open hands, and I made no such whining noise. I objected, loudly, to my right to assemble being violated by a representative of the state, I did not whine about being "assaulted". I submit that you are talking out of your ass.

I would consider grabbing somebody by the arm, throwing them to the ground and dragging them, on the ground, through a crowd, while pepper-spraying bystanders brutal, I don't see you calling that assault, or battery.

Cops are the biggest cry babies when it comes to obeying the law. Go out on cop-watch, as soon as they notice you are watching them they start whining about how you are "taking a threatening posture", they place their weapons in accessible places and start saying things like "stay away from my club", even when nobody is even moving towards it.They whine about anything that gets in the way of them breaking the law, but they'll trump up any bullshit charge to punish any perceived slight against them. It's a profession of whiny bullies, it doesn't have to be, but it is, and riot cops are the worst of it.

Protesters take the beatings, the gas, the arrests, and without any direct personal benefit or the privilege of effective immunity from the law we get back on the fucking line because we believe that the law should mean something and that the government should be held to a standard, even if we have to risk our own well being in the process. You can argue efficacy all day, but the riot cops the parties call in for their national conventions display the grossest disrespect for the constitution, and still the protesters have the courage to stand up and fight for the rights of citizens to assemble and be heard.

The double standard is giving the cop a pass.

No, he shouldn't have gone in there by himself with no backup. But no one should have assaulted an officer for doing his job.

As someone who has served as a volunteer Chief Judge for the most successful youth court system in the nation, that is absolutely assault. From Alaska, since that is the only statute I know,

AS 11.41.230. Assault in the Fourth Degree.

(a) A person commits the crime of assault in the fourth degree if

(1) that person recklessly causes physical injury to another person;

(2) with criminal negligence that person causes physical injury to another person by means of a dangerous instrument; or

(3) by words or other conduct that person recklessly places another person in fear of imminent physical injury.

(b) Assault in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.

I'm trained in riot control and am well versed in formations and tactics. He didn't much look like a riot control officer to me.

No, pepper spray is not brutal, and no, not all cops use their batons to push people away. Watch the video again. The cop did not pull anyone to the ground or drag them. The only reason he was on the ground ever is because he was assaulted.

Assault when a citizen does it to a police officer. Arresting someone for "eliciting a riot" when a police officer does it to a citizen.

Look, we're watching some horrendously ugly shit right now, and these tactics are embarrassing to me, and should be embarrassing to all Americans.

And stop with this "you don't know what freedoms you have" nonsense. Yes we do, and we're sick of seeing them disappear.

*politics

Adding video to channels (Politics) - requested by NetRunner.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
^That's just stupid.
The police are led by the feds and the GOP?
Get real.


The reality is that most cops and military personnel are conservative Republicans and really don't give a shit how many "libruls" they get to beat up.

They don't care about laws and they'll falsify charges on a whim.

All they care about is looking tough and scoring brownie points with their superiors.

The cops have always sided with the rich against the poor, and with the powerful over the powerless.

Correction: most cops you see on the internet are assholes and don't give a shit.

Looks like the scene out of V for Vendetta where the cop shoots the young girl. This video made my day, the young man who charged that officer has indescribable courage in the face of tyranny.

I'd like to see a 1,000 person protest where everyone has an AK-47 strapped to their back exercising their 2nd amendment rights. Wonder if the cops would think twice about violating the constitution then?

>> ^MarineGunrock:
I'm trained in riot control and am well versed in formations and tactics.


Still a pussy.

You are what you eat.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
You are what you eat.


no kidding: http://www.videosift.com/video/Animal-Genitalia-Cuisine

>> ^imstellar28:
I'd like to see a 1,000 person protest where everyone has an AK-47 strapped to their back exercising their 2nd amendment rights. Wonder if the cops would think twice about violating the constitution then?

Really? If I saw that I would be too busy soiling myself to worry about my freedoms.

This is why smart cops in unruly places travel in packs of six or more.

I call this video into the august halls of the *woohoo channel, because I declare we have found ourselves a new Chief Wiggum.

Also, why has no one else spent more time talking about the fact that the cop essentially SPRINTED into the crowd and started dragging the guy away. Looks like a rather fishy way to arrest someone to me.

Adding video to channels (Woohoo) - requested by Krupo.

>> ^raddishs:
>> ^imstellar28:
I'd like to see a 1,000 person protest where everyone has an AK-47 strapped to their back exercising their 2nd amendment rights. Wonder if the cops would think twice about violating the constitution then?

Really? If I saw that I would be too busy soiling myself to worry about my freedoms.


You just need to learn to disassociate guns with murder and violence, and re-associate them with freedom, personal protection, and the defense of your loved ones

It's just nice to see people fight back for once. Pepper-spraying everyone in a 180-360 degree arc was a nice touch, and as a result, I don't really care about what might've happened before the video. I've seen and heard enough of police brutality and abuse of power lately that I'm not inclined to give the police the benefit of the doubt. Americans need to fight back while they still can. To be honest, I thought most/all of them had lost the will.

^You've seen enough brutality because that's all that people want to share.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
^You've seen enough brutality because that's all that people want to share.


Why aren't those cops arresting the bad ones though? Just so you know, I respect the cops in my city--out of the five officers that have had to interact with me on separate occasions, each one only gave me a warning.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
I'm trained in riot control and am well versed in formations and tactics. He didn't much look like a riot control officer to me.
No, pepper spray is not brutal, and no, not all cops use their batons to push people away. Watch the video again. The cop did not pull anyone to the ground or drag them. The only reason he was on the ground ever is because he was assaulted.


Umm, pretty obviously dragging a guy for the first half of the video.

The guy was on his feet initially. I have no doubts that the guy was being civilly disobedient and stopped walking, as we can clearly see him sit down mid-escort. That's the way of being civilly disobedient, no?

To make the cop's job harder to do without actually using force to stop him.

The police officer did absolutely nothing wrong.

MG, i agree that pushing a police officer over in that situation was wrong, and could have led to the officer getting a seriously undeserved beating. i would call it incitement to riot, not civil disobedience. The protestor was not being beaten (if he was, i think a tackle would be in order).
This is probably not the best thread to make my point in...

but you give them way too much room dude. they work for us. each and every minute violation of the constitution should be stepped on as a first priority, no excuses, zero tolerance. In the case of this video, I hope the guy who tackled the cop is identified and prosecuted... just as I hope all the police who are taped breaking the law will be identified and prevented from ever "protecting and serving" the public ever again.

MG, I entirely respect your viewpoint, but I do recall a post not terribly long ago where you yourself said that if the government ordered the armed forces (Marines/Army etc, not just Nat. Guard) against the populace illegally, you would check out your weapon and armour and go AWOL, as would many of your fellows.

So I respectfully put it to you that the difference between you and the protesters is that your threshhold of intolerance towards and increasingly fascist government has not been met yet.

We all have limits on what we would accept. The problem is that if you give enough away, one day you will turn around and no longer have the option of CD, you will need to arm yourself for your own safety and liberty.

As I said earlier, this entire issue was a self fulfilling prophecy that the Gov. has, either deliberately or through continued ineptitude, brought to fruition.

If deliberately, what will they actually baulk at? Do they even deserve to govern at this point?

If inadvertantly, do they not deserve to be put on notice that they're the problem, not the protestors..?

>> ^Irishman:
God bless the red white and blue reich.
'

Really? A comparison to the Nazis. Not only is this not original, it really isn't true. And it just makes you sound dumb.

I agree this is not civil disobedience. While your example of people immobilizing cops is, it is not accurate in this case. I think a tackle is more akin to a punch, because you are physically hitting someone with your body. If you don't consider hitting violence than we will have to agree to disagree.

That said- Protest away.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
^You've seen enough brutality because that's all that people want to share.


Nah, I like the police generally. My brother was a police officer for 25 years. I was on the road with him many, many times. I saw how he treated people first hand, and he never had a chip on his shoulder, and never fucked with people who didn't seriously deserve it.

My brother also was anti-tazer. Thought it was brutal, and would be misused by aggro cops, which we have seen time and time again.

But, this has nothing to do with what kind of shit is being pulled on people, every day, all over the country. But, for the first time in my life, it's being directed toward white kids, which hasn't happened since the viet nam era.

Through the 80's and 90's, cops did this shit to blacks and mexicans, who had no means of making this abuse public. Not until Rodney King.

MG,

I posted this video. http://www.videosift.com/video/RNC-protestors-breaking-stuff-and-general-mayhem

Straight from the anarchissts. Watch their take on it, and it did think the NYC critical mass analogy was interesting. And clearly this is bad, bad felony assault, and I think everyone involved knows that, but it serves the cop right to try and grab and snatch, instead of arresting someone with public support. Ironically, if these were inner city drug dealers, do you think he would have tried that? So when they talk all tough about terrrrist and danger, don't believe it. THey know they are relatively safe dealing with disaffected rich white kids. Read choggies comments if you want deeper understanding of what is going on.

Since when does a police officer need public support to do his job and arrest someone that is breaking the law?

I'll check out that other video, though.

>> ^joedirt:
Read choggies comments if you want deeper understanding of what is going on.

Now there's an unlikely sentence.

“...it is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right... Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice.”

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Thanks, Mr. Thoreau.

Exactly. If this was Nazi Germany the cop would have simply shot the guy in the back of the head and went on with his day.

>> ^MycroftHomlz:
>>^Irishman:
God bless the red white and blue reich.
'
Really? A comparison to the Nazis. Not only is this not original, it really isn't true. And it just makes you sound dumb.

Is everyone blind? First of all, let's notice that cops respond to all protests the same. I seem the recall seeing similar riot gear in Denver this year. Second, why do we all hate all cops? We have no reason to assume this guy was a law abiding citizen. A cop is within his rights to place someone under arrest if they break the law and let's not forget that. Third, cops put themselves in threatening positions every day and have to defend themselves. If you're all alone in a crowd (that's dumb, but irrelevant) that seems to be getting dangerous, why not protect yourself. In many cases, it would have been admissible for the cop to shoot the guy who shoved him. Let's just be glad he chose not to.

Why do we jump to conclusions and condemn every cop? This is the path to anarchy if we don't evaluate each situation individually.

New camera angle!

http://www.videosift.com/video/Protesters-Liberate-Citizen-From-Cop