Medicare is efficient? it loses $60B a year.

If socialism worked, the US would be hip-deep in gold toilet seats.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

I think you need to substitute "loses" for "uses to provide a valuable service"

>> ^lantern53:

Medicare is efficient? it loses $60B a year.
If socialism worked, the US would be hip-deep in gold toilet seats.

I love how Kibbe repeatedly sidesteps and refuses to answer the question.

Oh hey let's talk about how Europe sucks. Oh hey, let's talk about Medicare

By your logic, then the Department of Defense is the worst federal program in the history of all gov't programs, and it's not socialist.

>> ^lantern53:

Medicare is efficient? it loses $60B a year.
If socialism worked, the US would be hip-deep in gold toilet seats.

>> ^lantern53:

Medicare is efficient? it loses $60B a year.
If socialism worked, the US would be hip-deep in gold toilet seats.


Medicare WOULD be way more efficient if it didn't have to deal with all the bullshit of a privatized system. There's soo much bullshit to go through we lose tons of money with our inefficient health system, it's ridiculous. Single payer would actually save us money...which is why Obamacare got traction in the first place and got passed...because GM noticed it had to pay 2,000 more a care in Detroit than across the way in Windsor (Canada) just because of Health care BS.

I love Bill Maher's crowd just laughing their asses off at this guys "incites", it's so... satisfying!

What Mr. Cranston said.

Just a little btw, the riots in France had nothing to do with unions.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'Real Time, Bill Maher, Eliot Spitzer, socialism, Tea Party, Matt Kibbe' to 'Real Time, Bill Maher, Eliot Spitzer, socialism, Tea Party, Matt Kibbe, Bryan Cranston' - edited by RhesusMonk

Isn't http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9239240.jpg

Of course Mr. Kibbe is reality-resistant. He isn't arguing from a position of conviction, he's arguing an ideological point he's been paid to push. He's PR, marketeer and lobbyist all wrapped into one. I think that he personally doesn't give a flying love-act either way as long as the money is right.

>> ^srd:

Of course Mr. Kibbe is reality-resistant. He isn't arguing from a position of conviction, he's arguing an ideological point he's been paid to push. He's PR, marketeer and lobbyist all wrapped into one. I think that he personally doesn't give a flying love-act either way as long as the money is right.


If he was living in reality, he'd shave those stupid sideburn things.

>> ^srd:

Of course Mr. Kibbe is reality-resistant. He isn't arguing from a position of conviction, he's arguing an ideological point he's been paid to push. He's PR, marketeer and lobbyist all wrapped into one. I think that he personally doesn't give a flying love-act either way as long as the money is right.


I have to admit, I was surprised he never fought back at all. Spitzer utterly demolishes him and he just sits there.

One thing I have yet to understand is the relationship between the Tea Party and Republicans. Part of me wants to think the whole thing is just a scam. Tea Partiers are obviously just angry racist Republicans. But then you have Tea Partiers running against Republicans and fracturing the red vote, ensuring that Obama is going to win, even with portions of the left that are unhappy with him.

All I can say is that Democrats have been known for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory so I don't flippin care if it seems like an easy victory for Dems in 2012, they said the same thing for running against Bush in 2004. So the left better get out there and VOTE. Hell, if the left werent so stereotypically lazy about voting, they'd probably still hold congress and we wouldn't be in the debit limit mess in the first place!

I think this is the first time I watched someone be so fucking ignorant, in such a calm, composed tone. It's really weird.

*controversy

Oops, force of habit. *promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Friday, August 5th, 2011 8:00pm PDT - promote requested by MrFisk.

>> ^MrFisk:

Oops, force of habit. promote


Thanks!

Ohh poor liberals getting their ass kicked by the American people? Boo hoo, no failed socialism for you. Sorry liberals, try doing things for yourself for once.

Video is standard BM BS. A bunch of communists tossing out ad-hominems as a means to deflect genuine criticism of failed socialist systems in front of clapping sheep. Spitzer in particular is a complete idiot. When asked about "what do you do with the unfunded liabilities" he says a bunch of complete nonsense and then accuses the other guy of being biased. He 'changed New York'? Oh yeah - NY's medicare/medicaid is TOTALLY solvent thanks to Eliot Spitzer.

Sigh - whatever. I could go on, but on the issue of socialism far too many neolibs just don't get it. It's their religion, and trying to talk sense to them is like trying to talk sense into some whacked out fundamentalist. To them black is white, up is down, and crazy is sane. There's just no rational like of thinking they can accept.

Case in point...

Tea Partiers are obviously just angry racist Republicans

And liberals are obviously just angry, racist Democrats.

The neolib meme that people who belong to the Tea Party are racists has long ago been debunked. The Tea Party is not motivated by race. They are motivated by a desire to reduce government size, scope, and influence. To see neolibs still clinging to this race lie is pathetic. Those who continue to persist in this obvious fabrication are clearly blinkered by personal bias. Clearly a bunch of neolibs have been spoonfed their leftist talking points and had no intellectual honesty left in them sufficient to research the matter, or indeed enough to even use their brains in any way except as a trash bin in which to store the bigotry - to be parroted back ad nauseum. But that's what leftists do, isn't it? Use bigotry, race, and hate to demonize any opposing idea and then reflexively bray like a bunch of asses when some douche like BM repeats the hate.

So you wouldn't happen to have partaken in the benefits of these crazy "socialistic" experiments called.. public schools and/or municipal water, electricity and sanitation

..Would you? o_O?

yeah,that's what i thought.

now stfu and try doing things for yourself for once.


>> ^TangledThorns:

Ohh poor liberals getting their ass kicked by the American people? Boo hoo, no failed socialism for you. Sorry liberals, try doing things for yourself for once.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

Video is standard BM BS. A bunch of communists tossing out ad-hominems as a means to deflect genuine criticism of failed socialist systems in front of clapping sheep.


uhh..look up the definition of ad hom sometime PP. Accusing someone of being biased is not an ad hom attack. Yet another example of Republican Persecution Complex. Trying to find bogeymen when there are none.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

The neolib meme that people who belong to the Tea Party are racists has long ago been debunked. The Tea Party is not motivated by race.


Care to cite any evidence of this so-called debunking? Should be easy if it happened a long time ago.

While you're at it, TRY and debunk the claim that the Tea Party exists only because Barack is a black democrat. You guys were pretty silent during Bush and Regan's crazy spending sprees.

Republicans don't care about the debt when they're in power, but when a Democrat is in power, suddenly it's a huge issue.

Get ready for some more spending amigo, because that's the only way you get out of a recession. I've got history on my side. I eagerly await your latest dose of "truthiness"

http://www.insurance-advocate.com/Streamlining-Medicaid-the-Key-To-NY-Health-Care-Reform-c784.html

Considering it didn't happen but a few years ago, it would be very difficult to tell what positive influence it has had and will have, and his point wasn't that he fixed medicaid in NY by himself, and it's done. He said he changed it, and it's those kinds of reforms that will be needed to fix it.

I won't say he's right or wrong about it, because it remains to be seen if this kind of reform will work, but I'm glad you've already made your mind up due to your ideology.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

Video is standard BM BS. A bunch of communists tossing out ad-hominems as a means to deflect genuine criticism of failed socialist systems in front of clapping sheep. Spitzer in particular is a complete idiot. When asked about "what do you do with the unfunded liabilities" he says a bunch of complete nonsense and then accuses the other guy of being biased. He 'changed New York'? Oh yeah - NY's medicare/medicaid is TOTALLY solvent thanks to Eliot Spitzer.

You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.

America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.

I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

The above post was sponsored by the Greece/Ireland/Portugal Insolvency is America's Future Corporation.

>> ^quantumushroom:

You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.


Like Spitzer said to Kibbe, "You're so wrong on so much of that I don't know where to begin"

You're either incompetent, deliberately lying, or both.

Speaking for myself, by QM's deluded logic, I obviously don't live in America, because I don't even have HALF of what QM claims the poor have.

But that can't be....I'm a public employee, I should have 10 cars and 5 homes if that were true.

That's great and all, but the entire country would be better off if our society would do the right thing and admit going gung ho towards a free market is short sighted, and destructive to everyone in the economy.

So why not get better at busting medicaid fraud?! There's police fraud, but no one is going around saying we need to abolish police. There's insurance fraud, but we don't make insurance illegal. I could go on and on.

BTW, America's poor, most of them own their own homes?! Where on earth do you get these statistics?! The homeownership rate for all of the US is 66.4% in Q1 of 2011 and declining. Gee, I wonder who makes up the vast majority of the 33.6% that don't own their own homes. Prove most poor people own two cars, two computers, 3 TVs, etc. Prove it, show me actual data that proves it. Don't just make outlandish claims you can't back up.

Do you just sit around all day and make crap up?

Edit: just for fun, I looked up statistics for fraud in Medicaid. Nowhere can I find Medicaid fraud estimated at $60 billion annually.

>> ^quantumushroom:

You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

>> ^VoodooV:

One thing I have yet to understand is the relationship between the Tea Party and Republicans. Part of me wants to think the whole thing is just a scam. Tea Partiers are obviously just angry racist Republicans. But then you have Tea Partiers running against Republicans and fracturing the red vote, ensuring that Obama is going to win, even with portions of the left that are unhappy with him.

You're pretty close to grokking the relationship, you just need to add one more word. "Tea Partiers are obviously just angry racist STUPID Republicans." Too stupid to realize that the policies they claim to want would hurt them terribly...and too stupid to realize that they're ensuring they lose. Thank god.

>> ^dag:

I think you need to substitute "loses" for "uses to provide a valuable service"
>> ^lantern53:
Medicare is efficient? it loses $60B a year.
If socialism worked, the US would be hip-deep in gold toilet seats.



What doesn't follow under that heading, really.

I love how he calls out the right-wing American sensationalism. I'm so sick of the position that America can't do wrong based on our ideals. However, in reality there ARE social classes and there is an issue with social class mobility.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

...I could go on, but on the issue of socialism far too many neolibs just don't get it. It's their religion...


You guys keep throwing that "socialism-as-religion" thing out there. What I don't get is that socialism is quite clearly one of, if not the founding tenet of Christianity.

>> ^quantumushroom:

You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.


The top one percent have been getting wealthier and wealthier for the last 25 years. You're seeing the results right now. You're seeing the tail end of a failed social experiment. You're just reading it backwards.

I think it is a basic fact that the rich basically get "rich" off of us, the people.

i want my money back

Now that your tepid squirt gun of insults is sucking air, maybe you'd like some FACTS.

Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime

Poverty in America - based on US Census

Speaking of deluded "logic", is yours really 'If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen anywhere.' ?????????????????????????????



>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^quantumushroom:
You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

Like Spitzer said to Kibbe, "You're so wrong on so much of that I don't know where to begin"
You're either incompetent, deliberately lying, or both.
Speaking for myself, by QM's deluded logic, I obviously don't live in America, because I don't even have HALF of what QM claims the poor have.
But that can't be....I'm a public employee, I should have 10 cars and 5 homes if that were true.

See above post with links for where I get my facts. Your google must be broken. I entered medicare fraud, 6 billion and found plenty. And CBS isn't exactly FOX.

That's great and all, but the entire country would be better off if our society would do the right thing and admit going gung ho towards a free market is short sighted, and destructive to everyone in the economy.


Seemed to work well before the socialist rubbish beginning in the 1920s. The destruction began with a huge all-powerful federal mafia spending more money than it takes in. Now that the bill has come due, the socialists want to attack the economic engine itself and not the dopes redlining it, namely, socialists.



So why not get better at busting medicaid fraud?! There's police fraud, but no one is going around saying we need to abolish police. There's insurance fraud, but we don't make insurance illegal. I could go on and on.


I don't have an answer for you why this fraud isn't policed better, except that policing costs money and thugverment prefers zero oversight and accountability whenever possible. I would simply make medicare fraud punishable by death.


I'm chained to the facts. As I'm not a left-winger, I must make decisions and form opinions based on reality. If the left had evidence that nations can tax themselves into prosperity, or that socialized medicine is efficient, innovative and doesn't cause care rationing and doctor shortages, I'd be for them.


Congress has been taxocrat-controlled since 2006 and then of course there's the Kenyanesque Hawaiian since 2008. Why have things only worsened since these clowns took power? Hmmmmmmmm....

>> ^quantumushroom:

Now that your tepid squirt gun of insults is sucking air, maybe you'd like some FACTS.
Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime

Poverty in America - based on US Census
Speaking of deluded "logic", is yours really 'If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen anywhere.' ?????????????????????????????

>> ^VoodooV:
>> ^quantumushroom:
You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

Like Spitzer said to Kibbe, "You're so wrong on so much of that I don't know where to begin"
You're either incompetent, deliberately lying, or both.
Speaking for myself, by QM's deluded logic, I obviously don't live in America, because I don't even have HALF of what QM claims the poor have.
But that can't be....I'm a public employee, I should have 10 cars and 5 homes if that were true.



What's your point QM? As others have already said. Proving that there is fraud does nothing other than show that things need to be improved. But that's not what you want to do, you want to slash the budget. Slashing budgets doesn't fix fraud...fixing fraud fixes fraud. Pretty basic concept there. It's really quite disappointing. Conservatives cry all the time about how they want efficient government...but they have some pretty inefficient ways to do it.

As to your second link, nice try, but The Heritage Foundation is an obviously conservative movement and thus, obviously biased. But let's go simpler than that. You...and THF made the claim that the "poor" have their own home, have two cars, air conditioning, two computers and 3 TVs. Fortunately, I qualified MY remarks with "Anecdotally" You do know what that word means right, QM? I know it's a big word and conservatives don't like big words, you like manipulating issues with sound bites, I know, but you guys hate big words. So I never claimed that my experiences speak for everyone. So nice try at a strawman, but QM fails again.

But more to the point. THF is full of shit, or their definition of poor is way the heck off or poor compared to Beverly Hills or something . While I do have air conditioning, I rent, I certainly don't have two cars, I certainly don't have two computers or three TVs and I know I'm doing FAR better than most of the people I work with. And again, I work in State Gov't and contrary to your marching orders from Fox News, we don't make a whole hell of a lot. So if, according to THF, I'm apparently lower than poor, but wait, I'm doing better than most of my peers, so they have to be even lower than the lowest of the poor...so again, either THF is incompetent, or much more likely, since THF is clearly a conservative, thus biased, organization, they are either exaggerating, or outright lying.

You clearly don't know what poor is, QM. You lose...again.

Troll elsewhere

It makes me sad that the majority of politics is a bitch-fest where people genuinely get angry with each other, slinging mud at 'the other choice' saying how they've fucked up, how shit they are - rather than directly addressing issues or discussing sensibly what is the best logical solution to whatever problem has arisen...

tl;dr

The world of politics is full of turds, it simply doesn't have enough people who are in it to make their country genuinely better.

Bryan Cranston wins that video.

So, let's get this straight... CBS is part of the liberal media, and can't be trusted. But then QM sites a CBS article, so THAT should be trusted, only because it makes his case.

Please. CBS, just like the rest of the media, is tilted towards sensationalism. Overstate the fraud estimate, and it's more sensationalist.

I see nothing in that article that proves medicare fraud is $60 billion a year.

About the statistics for the poor, that was written by the Heritage Foundation. Not exactly objective information there. But oh wonder of wonders, even by their own words, the majority of people considered to be poor don't own their own homes! Thanks QM for proving yourself wrong, just like I said you were.

What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers. So far, the answer is essentially "everything" since there is at least 50 trillion in unfunded promises that will be paid by future taxes or inflation.

It's a nice sentiment, it wins a lot of votes, but you can only prolong life by reducing its quality among the young. Draw a line somewhere.

Oh, and didn't the post office just announce they're like 3 billion underfunded? The employees voted themselves nice pensions based on future revenue that can't possibly exist. And rather than cut the pensions, they want to just work a 4 day week. Pretty soon, it'll be a 3-day work week for the same wage. Pretty sweet deal if you're a USPS employee, pretty awful deal if you're a citizen who just wants their fucking MAIL.

>> ^BansheeX:

What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers.


Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!

>> ^Seric:

It makes me sad that the majority of politics is a bitch-fest where people genuinely get angry with each other, slinging mud at 'the other choice' saying how they've fucked up, how shit they are - rather than directly addressing issues or discussing sensibly what is the best logical solution to whatever problem has arisen...
tl;dr
The world of politics is full of turds, it simply doesn't have enough people who are in it to make their country genuinely better.


Fuck YOU!!!

>> ^ChaosEngine:

>> ^BansheeX:
What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers.

Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!


Standard Schizophrenic Christian Conservative mentality: protect a person at all cost when they're in the womb, tell them to go to hell once they're out.

>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^ChaosEngine:
>> ^BansheeX:
What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers.

Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!

Standard Schizophrenic Christian Conservative mentality: protect a person at all cost when they're in the womb, tell them to go to hell once they're out.


"If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're pre-school... you're fucked!"

>> ^ChaosEngine:
Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!



Define "some" medical care. As we speak, there are thousands of elderly people who could live 3 months longer by getting a million dollar artificial heart. Are you a heartless monster for not giving every red cent you make past your bare necessities to financing these kinds of procedures? You could voluntarily contribute right now by selling all your luxuries and not bearing costly children. Why don't you? His cost is fatal and yours isn't. You'd live in squalor, but you'd live. Why I ask you? Why must you be so heartless?

This is why "forced transfer" programs can't work, because the demand is unlimited, but the resources to finance it are not. You have bankrupted yourself in the name of military adventurism and life prolongation.

>> ^TangledThorns:

Ohh poor liberals getting their ass kicked by the American people? Boo hoo, no failed socialism for you. Sorry liberals, try doing things for yourself for once.


Awesome, we are getting more conservatard trolls on the site.

What planet are you from Banshee? Republicans make false accusations about the health care reforms having death panels....now you're advocating them?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Republicans have no fucking clue what they're for. The only thing they know is that they'll take the opposite stance of whatever a Democrat wants.

I'm waiting for Obama to openly support trickle down economics just so I can watch the Reps head explode.

>> ^VoodooV:

What planet are you from Banshee? Republicans make false accusations about the health care reforms having death panels....now you're advocating them?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Republicans have no fucking clue what they're for. The only thing they know is that they'll take the opposite stance of whatever a Democrat wants.
I'm waiting for Obama to openly support trickle down economics just so I can watch the Reps head explode.


How can you not understand what I'm saying? Demand for health care is unlimited. Every person has to decide how much money they want to sock away for a future problem afflicting them. It is a balance between quality of life and length of life. People make those kinds of decisions already with the quantity of children they have. Each child causes an additional divide from the same pot. But you can't make those kinds of decisions with OTHER people's money, because you will take everything and more. Eventually, it gets to the point where no one wants to produce in such amounts that would reduce their benefit relative to their burden. And if the majority are consuming more than they're producing, where do the funds come from to consume in the first place? Net destruction ends in nothingness, a currency so worthless you can scarcely afford anything. But hey, it works for a while.

Payroll taxes for Medicare and SS go straight into the general fund and the government annually spends in excess of the fund by borrowing at interest. The interest payments alone are becoming massive burdens.

Sorry, but reality disagrees with you.

Demand for health care is not unlimited, it is finite. Sure it is a large demand, but it is quite finite. You're making a strawman argument because no one is advocating the absurd prolonging of life you're accusing others of.

News flash, we don't exist in a vacuum. We don't live in a universe where our decisions only affect us alone so your Ayn Rand fantasy utopia of everyone taking care of themselves and fuck the other guy doesn't exist..it never will.

It benefits everyone to give quality healthcare to all. We are more productive and contribute more when we don't have to bankrupt ourselves paying medical costs. We pay large amounts of money already because people don't have proper health care and don't do anything about it until they show up at the emergency room at death's door. Taxpayers foot that bill when they can't pay. So the question is simple: Do you want to pay for it now while it's cheap and easy to treat, or do you want to pay more later when it's a LOT worse and a hell of a lot more expensive.

Besides, you don't seem to mind spending other people's money and taking their lives when it comes to defense spending and invading other countries. And as the video already pointed out. We don't see Republicans sticking to their conservative "principles" and refusing Medicare/Medicaid when they need it....only when other people need it. So stop being such a hypocrite.

aaahh, the spectrum of political discourse on the internet... so many shitty flavors

Here's what I find hilarious about people trying to make arguments against Social Security or Medicare using simplistic methods without considering all the ramifications of the policies and programs they rail against.

Social Security and Medicare don't just benefit seniors. Both programs create a market for goods and services consumed by seniors. And just who exactly will be producing the goods and services seniors will be purchasing using Social Security and Medicare? The young! That provides the young job opportunities and increased compensation since demand for labor to produce these goods and services is higher. Best of all, most seniors are not competing for these jobs because they're typically retired.

>> ^BansheeX:

What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers. So far, the answer is essentially "everything" since there is at least 50 trillion in unfunded promises that will be paid by future taxes or inflation.
It's a nice sentiment, it wins a lot of votes, but you can only prolong life by reducing its quality among the young. Draw a line somewhere.
Oh, and didn't the post office just announce they're like 3 billion underfunded? The employees voted themselves nice pensions based on future revenue that can't possibly exist. And rather than cut the pensions, they want to just work a 4 day week. Pretty soon, it'll be a 3-day work week for the same wage. Pretty sweet deal if you're a USPS employee, pretty awful deal if you're a citizen who just wants their fucking MAIL.

>> ^VoodooV:

Sorry, but reality disagrees with you.
Demand for health care is not unlimited, it is finite. Sure it is a large demand, but it is quite finite. You're making a strawman argument because no one is advocating the absurd prolonging of life you're accusing others of.
News flash, we don't exist in a vacuum. We don't live in a universe where our decisions only affect us alone so your Ayn Rand fantasy utopia of everyone taking care of themselves and fuck the other guy doesn't exist..it never will.
It benefits everyone to give quality healthcare to all. We are more productive and contribute more when we don't have to bankrupt ourselves paying medical costs. We pay large amounts of money already because people don't have proper health care and don't do anything about it until they show up at the emergency room at death's door. Taxpayers foot that bill when they can't pay. So the question is simple: Do you want to pay for it now while it's cheap and easy to treat, or do you want to pay more later when it's a LOT worse and a hell of a lot more expensive.
Besides, you don't seem to mind spending other people's money and taking their lives when it comes to defense spending and invading other countries. And as the video already pointed out. We don't see Republicans sticking to their conservative "principles" and refusing Medicare/Medicaid when they need it....only when other people need it. So stop being such a hypocrite.


Most of the costs are borne by people who are retired, so I fail to see how borrowing trillions we don't have on life prolongation does anything but doom the future to crushing taxes and inflation for something the present desired but weren't productive enough to pay for. You can't do that, it's not fair, and many young people are waking up to the fact that this essentially a generational ponzi scheme with nothing in it for them. The first SS recipient contributed well below what she received and the final one will have paid in far more than they will receive in benefits. SS and Medicare, by their end, will have impoverished more people than any government programs in the history of mankind. Every naive socialist program is a sentimental black hole that accomplishes the opposite of what it intends. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, for example, made it easier to get a loan, but in doing so increased the price of homes and thus the size of the loan. Because suddenly you've got this "magic bottomless guarantee" to print up a loan, and now you've got damn near everyone seemingly capable of bidding up the prices. Of course, now we realize it wasn't bottomless after all, it just seemed that way for a while.

You've successfully convinced me that you really, really want health care at some future untold person's expense. The populace as a whole is resisting taxes. Their money has been devalued so thoroughly that they can't budget in broad tax increases today, so what makes you think the future can? It's also true that employers are not poor people. We've had nothing but more and more government involvement in this sector and, just like education, the costs have risen with how much the government is able to tax and borrow. I used to work for an online college called Kaplan. Kaplan's price IS what the government takes and loans. Why would they price below that? You just don't seem to understand how markets work. Look at something like LASIK and PRK aren't covered by private or public insurers. It's had nothing but price declines and quality improvements. Look at computers, constant price declines and quality improvements. When people are forced to spend their own money, the fear and greed offset works. When they're spending a pool of forcibly appropriated funds, they lose sight of its true cost to them and the future and become reckless.

Oh, and I'm not a Republican in favor of military adventures. I sympathize less with that nonsense than I do with you. I understand that public roads are of lower quality than toll roads, but I'd rather we bear that cost for the simplicity of not having to dick with toll booths. Everything governmental has that dynamic, but I say the government should be completely disallowed from borrowing in excess of revenue. If you want something now, pay for it now, the end. If you can't raise the revenue, don't cry about it and don't steal from the future.

And yes, demands are infinite. Austrian economics 101. You offer someone everything on earth for $100, they'll probably take it. Problem is, supply ISNT infinite, so the price will never be that low. If you found some way of making planets full of shit cheap and abundant, you'd see that demand is indeed infinite.

You have repeatedly demonstrated you don't know what the word infinite means and I've already called you out on your strawman of life prolonging.

You continue to demonstrate that you have no clue how the world works beyond your ivory tower. I can't take anything you say seriously because conservatives have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't operate in good faith...they run up the debt and then blame the next guy for their misdeeds.

We've run our economy according to conservative ideas for the last few decades...how well has that worked out? Maybe you're right and socialism doesn't work. But what I can tell you from empirical evidence is that giving all our money to the already rich certainly doesn't work. It's time for a fundamental change and I honestly don't think we should be listening to the people who:

1. Got us in this mess in the first place
2. Have demonstrated that they're perfectly willing to sabotage this country in order to create the appearance that a democrat failed.

History has already shown that cutting taxes and reducing spending in an economic crisis does. not. work. I'm not interested in repeating the same shit over and over like the conservatives. Conservatives have no right to call themselves conservative in the first place. Nothing about their policies are conservative.

Banshee obviously has never heard of the term "investment". According to his logic, everyone who wants to open a business, should save up one million dollars, and buy all their equipment, hire personnel, and stock their shops with their own cash. Relying on a loan to move their business from a dream into reality, and not having the money RIGHT NOW to afford all of it, is ridiculous and according to Ayn Rand (who took public services for her own personal health) it will never work! (except that every business on the face of the planet shows that that's the way it actually does work.)