Graham Hancock's TEDx talk censored by TED's science board.
"I am fighting these charges from TED's Science Board which in my opinion are untrue and amount to nothing more than an ideologically driven attempt to censor my work." - Graham Hancock
TED: "He misrepresents what scientists actually think. He suggests, for example, that no scientists are working on the problem of consciousness."
"Hancock makes statements about psychotropic drugs that seem both nonscientific and reckless."
"He states as fact that psychotropic drug use is essential for an "emergence into consciousness"
"[He states] that one can use psychotropic plants to connect directly with an ancient mother culture."
"He seems to offer a one-note explanation for how culture arises (drugs), it's no surprise his work has often been characterised as pseudo-archaeology."
For an examination of this development see:
http://www.dailygrail.com/Fresh-Science/2013/3/TED-Deletes-Talks-Rupert-Sheldrake-and-Graham-Hancock
39 Comments
lurgeesays...*quality
siftbotsays...Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by lurgee.
shagen454says...To me there is no controversy. Whatever this stuff is it changes lives.It is difficult. I have never felt so alone yet so alive, transformed. I lived in an existential world, for some reason I believed in nothing. Never in my wildest dreams of taking mushrooms or acid did I ever think it had an actual link to who a person really is on an infinite and universal scale. Yet, here it is, the minimalist strain of tryptamine. Like TMK said, it is twenty years of pharmacology, art history, religion and philosophy all in a toke that lasts for ten minutes more or less. I was a speculator, a doubter as well...just like you probably are right now. If you doubt then you should shed the ten minutes of your life to find out. What are you afraid of? The immensity of truth? To know this is not the end? To know that real existence exists outside of this bark, these bones, these plants, this world, this universe? Become aware; this is our destiny, our compass, real evolution. FUCK capitalism with a sick dick.
BicycleRepairMansays...This TEDx talk was not "banned" . It was simply removed from TEDx's Youtube channel because TEDx found the content to be pseudoscientific and making unfounded claims. (After people had complained that they were) The TED brand prides itself on delivering inspiring talks by scientist and others, and the TEDx business is threatening to undermine that standard, as TEDx are events organized locally , so the quality assurance can be iffy.
TED/TEDx is in full right to decide whether it wants to be a platform for pseudoscientific gobbledygook or not. IMO, this was the right thing to do, and it should serve as a warning to TED against the woo-people who wants to spread their nonsense through TED. TED/TEDx should be stricter on who they let up on their stages next time around.
articiansays...Leaving aside the claims about the planet, through lots of research on the topic he speaks of I don't see anything he said as being unfounded, relative to the substances he's discussing.
Ayahuasca has certainly been proven to rid many, many people of addiction, and has been proven to have long-term positive side effects for people with mental disorders such as depression. I believe raising awareness of those elements are worth allowing people to speak about them at TED.
This TEDx talk was not "banned" . It was simply removed from TEDx's Youtube channel because TEDx found the content to be pseudoscientific and making unfounded claims. (After people had complained that they were) The TED brand prides itself on delivering inspiring talks by scientist and others, and the TEDx business is threatening to undermine that standard, as TEDx are events organized locally , so the quality assurance can be iffy.
TED/TEDx is in full right to decide whether it wants to be a platform for pseudoscientific gobbledygook or not. IMO, this was the right thing to do, and it should serve as a warning to TED against the woo-people who wants to spread their nonsense through TED. TED/TEDx should be stricter on who they let up on their stages next time around.
siftbotsays...Tags for this video have been changed from 'Psychedelics, Banned, Censorship, TED Talks, DMT' to 'Psychedelics, Banned, Censorship, TED Talks, DMT, Graham Hancock' - edited by Trancecoach
shagen454says...I initially swore at you and fantomas for being completely closed minded and ignorant. But, I would rather say: You do not know what you are talking about. If you did, you would NOT have said these things.
If there was ever something to discuss it should be this. Whatever this state of consciousness is, it must and should be studied more in depth. It is not nonsense. Anyone that says such nonsense obviously has not been graced with the molecule. And if you have not been graced by it and are saying anything about it, especially negative, I would say do not throw caution to the wind.... just SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH.
pseudoscientific gobbledygook or not. IMO, this was the right thing to
to spread their nonsense through TED. TED/TEDx should be stricter on who they let up on their stages next time around.
shagen454says...Also, notice that I did not tag this as science. Even though doing this is the most scientific and experimental possibility a person could never have imagined. This is quantum physics come to life with your eyes closed. It simply is not studied in depth and it should be, why are more people not studying it? Because it scares them, if all people had this experience it would change the world as we know it for the better.
The only people who are nay sayers are those who do not know, at all. Whom should not be speaking about it.
enochsays...@shagen454
i think it unfair to say that people dont have a right to an opinion concerning these matters.
they have every right to an opinion.
just as you have a right to point out that maybe..just possibly..that opinion may be lacking due to never having participated.
but that does not exclude them from participating in the discussion.
it just means their opinion will be biased because it is based on their own subjective experience..or lack of experience.
i mean think about it.
how do you explain,in any substantive way,a 12 hour sweat lodge with a cherokee medicine man on two hits of acid?
how the smoke became people who called themselves guides?
how they revealed the book of life and showed you the pages pertaining to you?
or how in that book you were confronted with your ego?
and you found your ego to be in charge and it was a petulant and selfish child?
and every petty,vindictive and jealous act you ever perpetrated was laid bare and all you could feel was shame?
you cant.
its like a woman trying to explain giving birth to a man.
he will never understand fully because he does not own a uterus.
how do you convey the feelings of connectedness?
not just with your fellow human but with everything else...literally?
how you were able to leave all that baggage on the dirt floor in that sweat lodge and walk away clean,new and reinvented.
how do you describe that to someone who has never,and possibly may never,experienced that?
when you tell someone you a free human being,do they understand what you are actually saying?
or are they fitting that phrase into the context of their own understandings?
so dont bother.it will just lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
maybe one day they will experience what we have...
maybe they never will..
and thats ok.
it is after all..their experience.
the question of consciousness and perceived reality are one of my favorite topics.
excellent talk.
*promote
siftbotsays...Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Thursday, March 14th, 2013 12:46pm PDT - promote requested by enoch.
swedishfriendsays...Ted talks are not all science-based and this talk doesn't have a single claim of any woo as people like to call it.
PS. There is an ayahuasca church that has been recognized as a religion in the USA and its sacrament can be used in church ceremonies legally.
shagen454says...Enoch, you are right everyone has the right to their opinion. But, what is pseudoscience? That phrase in the same category as this is a slight.A negative dashing of one of the most visionary and powerful experiences a human could have. Just the fact that TEDX is not encouraging this issue after having posted this up is fact enough that whatever it is and no one knows, not even people who have actually done it, should be enough for people to unfurl their brow and know that there IS something to this. This is not a popularity contest, I know for some reason this culture has supported cynicism, it dislikes spirituality beyond our favored religions, many people do not want to know that there is for some reason a gateway into something unspeakable right under our feet. They do not want to believe. Rightfully so. I think it is terrifying as well but I also have always wanted the truth and science is doing a great job but it moves too slooooowly.
In my opinion it is not a drug. It is a state. A natural state that humankind has long forgotten through indoctrination, power and control. The doubter will receive enlightenment.
Fletchsays..."He states as fact that psychotropic drug use is essential for an "emergence into consciousness"
I can't disagree with that. It's a perspective-altering experience. I didn't come to exactly the same conclusions as @shagen454, but being able to experience reality sans the filter of one's prejudices, expectations and preconceptions is something I would recommend everyone try at least once in their lives. For me, everything is new, as if I am experiencing things for the first time, but through (mostly) rational, adult eyes able to truly comprehend these new perceptions. I appreciate, maybe for the first time, many of the things we all take for granted. It's like one very long moment of clarity that you wish would last forever.
This is not about getting wasted. It is self-improvement. And it's a wonderful experience.
shagen454says...I appreciate your words immensely, thank you for sharing.
"He states as fact that psychotropic drug use is essential for an "emergence into consciousness"
I can't disagree with that. It's a perspective-altering experience. I didn't come to exactly the same conclusions as @shagen454, but being able to experience reality sans the filter of one's prejudices, expectations and preconceptions is something I would recommend everyone try at least once in their lives. For me, everything is new, as if I am experiencing things for the first time, but through (mostly) rational, adult eyes able to truly comprehend these new perceptions. I appreciate, maybe for the first time, many of the things we all take for granted. It's like one very long moment of clarity that you wish would last forever.
This is not about getting wasted. It is self-improvement. And it's a wonderful experience.
BicycleRepairMansays...Ugh.. "Quantum Physics", theres that buzzword used where it has no place again. you could just as well have said "this is Advanced plumbing come to life", as you clearly have no idea what quantum mechanics is.
Look, its not like scientists just ignore consciousness or the brain, we actually know quite a bit about it in general. We know, for instance that our brains are built with the same carbon, hydrogen, phosphorous,oxygen and other elements that make up the other parts of our bodies, and every other living thing on earth. And we know that these elements adhere to the laws of physics, an there is no reason to expect them to be able to break those laws of physics just because they are put together to form a brain.
This hippie pothead stuff about forgotten magical realms that can be reached through shamanism, if you believe that shit, well, go ahead. But it IS pseudoscience, and nonsense to most people who have an actual interest in actual science. Putting people like that on the same stage as actual scientists and thereby lending them the credibility of a platform that is known for presenting actual science, is not a good idea for that platform if they want to keep their status as promoters of science.
I have no problems with you believing this stuff shagen454, and you are clearly passionate about it. more power to you for it. However, you cannot demand I buy into this or "SHUT MY FUCKING MOUTH", Besides everything else, my only point in my first comment was to correct the idea that TED was "banning" this thing, and I only tried to explain that TED considered it unscientific, and why. Theres no need to get all worked up at me for it. Well, atleast you could have waited til after this comment, where I actually spoke my mind more directly.
Also, notice that I did not tag this as science. Even though doing this is the most scientific and experimental possibility a person could never have imagined. This is quantum physics come to life with your eyes closed. It simply is not studied in depth and it should be, why are more people not studying it? Because it scares them, if all people had this experience it would change the world as we know it for the better.
The only people who are nay sayers are those who do not know, at all. Whom should not be speaking about it.
shagen454says...These are comments from someone who clearly has not given this plant a chance. No, it is not quantum physics. I stay in the same room, it is evident by someone observing that I am in fact in the room. But, what I have seen and felt was on a quantum level. I was in fact for some reason flying at the speed of light. It sounds absolutely crazy because it is, that is why it should be studied. Why are so many so afraid to accept that whatever this is, is an astounding mystery?
I say give it a shot and find out for yourself. I was the same way, I thought it was hoopla too, then I found out. I doubt Science, bless its soul, will ever unlock this mystery.
Also, I do not condone the use of this by kids or young adults. This should stay far out of reach of them. Actually, now that I think about it, lol, it is probably not a good idea to promote this thing for this very reason.
Also, I am sorry for getting crazy at you BPM.
you clearly have no idea what quantum mechanics is.
This hippie pothead stuff about forgotten magical realms that can be reached through shamanism, if you believe that shit, well, go ahead.
gwiz665jokingly says...I'M TELLING YOU... 9/11 WAS DONE BY THE GOVERNMENT!!! Come under my umbrella of foil and we can talk about the way the real world works..
gwiz665says...@shagen454 you sound like a profoundly religious person. "You're not worthy to speak of this subject - only the believers can talk!"
Well.. go fuck yourself and fuck your pseudo-scientific bullshit. Just because you dunk the koolaid doesn't mean the rest of us has to suffer.
CreamKsays...This was removed from TED? Good, it started to get a little bit preachy and messianic.. Not really objective, hallucinogenics do reveal similar patterns but how we interpret them is personal. You aren't suppose to start converting people in to your thought patterns acquired during ayahuasca sessions, it's suppose to liberate yourself from that behaviour. And guilt. Mostly guilt.
shagen454says...I am not religious, lol. I do not believe in any religion. I am not trying to convert anyone, I am just saying that if a person does not believe in the stories of this plant then why not give it a shot? Instead of getting mad about something many of you clearly do not know anything about. Scared of what it will show you? Yes, UM (Yoda voice).
I think calling it pseudoscience is hilarious because a person is experiencing something of science. A marvel of science. And when you guys find out, no need to apologize.
@shagen454 you sound like a profoundly religious person. "You're not worthy to speak of this subject - only the believers can talk!"
Well.. go fuck yourself and fuck your pseudo-scientific bullshit. Just because you dunk the koolaid doesn't mean the rest of us has to suffer.
chingalerasays...Mostly ego, rather-Guilt bees but another construct of the big EGO.
Damn gwiz665, way to dash the man's passion to bits on the rocks of that golden shore of consciousness where you reside....What does one dunk in Kool-Aid anyhow, shagen454?? Has you ever has that before?
This was removed from TED? Good, it started to get a little bit preachy and messianic.. Not really objective, hallucinogenics do reveal similar patterns but how we interpret them is personal. You aren't suppose to start converting people in to your thought patterns acquired during ayahuasca sessions, it's suppose to liberate yourself from that behaviour. And guilt. Mostly guilt.
gwiz665says...I'm happy you don't believe in religion, that means there's hope for you yet. It seems to me, from your posts in this thread, that you sadly have replaced it with the mumbo-jumbo that Graham Hancock and his ilk of snakeoil salesmen (Deepak Chopra comes to mind) preaches.
If there is some sort of altered state; or if consciousness is anything like what these people say, then they should look into them in a proper scientific way instead of going from a personal experience - "I saw it, so it's real!!" That doesn't prove anything.
Get the most skeptical person about this to try it and see if his reaction is actually anything near this.
If Hancock already had some ideas about Mother what's-her-face, then getting positive reinforcement while stoned is easy. Some people don't feel any effects from Hash (or just have really bad types of it), but if your mental state is in the right place, you can even get placebo drunk from water.
I'm not particularly scared of anything DMT has to show, if there's anything there, there are plenty of scientists looking for the next nobel prize in philosophy looking for it.
One thing to consider, why aren't more people looking into this, if it's so important?
I am not religious, lol. I do not believe in any religion. I am not trying to convert anyone, I am just saying that if a person does not believe in the stories of this plant then why not give it a shot? Instead of getting mad about something many of you clearly do not know anything about. Scared of what it will show you? Yes, UM (Yoda voice).
I think calling it pseudoscience is hilarious because a person is experiencing something of science. A marvel of science. And when you guys find out, no need to apologize.
shagen454says...Simple as fear. It is not only a wonderful experience it is also very terrifying. Psychedelics, if that is even what it is, have been ostracized by society, for whatever reason, politics, philosophy, culture, people making OSs due to their inspiration since the 60s. DMT was known about back then, but not widely known about, back then it was super rare. Getting the main ingredients would have been a pain and required going to South America.
Now that the ingredients are not difficult to get, thanks to the digital information system, more and more people are seeing what this thing is. And many of them that take enough come back with stories right out of a Phillip K Dick novel, or information that seems so New Agey, frequencies, cymatics, fractals, entities, etc, it is too weird or difficult for people to even want to look at this as something more than a really crazy drug and look into what it is doing to the brain. This has been done to small extents in providing details into which serotonin receptors DMT is affecting. What is clear is that one would have to take HUGE amounts of mushrooms to get to what this state is, if it is even possible. This takes a person there in two seconds then ten minutes, you are back. How is it possible?
By all means, I would LOVE for this to be studied by science ; then the Singularity would be right around the corner, mann...JK.
One thing to consider, why aren't more people looking into this, if it's so important?
shagen454says...Must be the kind of Kool Aid where the Kool Aid man comes out dressed in a black entity costume aboard a UFO and you are being blasted apart at a molecular level until your consciousness and huge ego does exist any longer. Sounds like Kool Aid more people should take around here right Choggs?
Mostly ego, rather-Guilt bees but another construct of the big EGO.
Damn gwiz665, way to dash the man's passion to bits on the rocks of that golden shore of consciousness where you reside....What does one dunk in Kool-Aid anyhow, shagen454?? Has you ever has that before?
BicycleRepairMansays...I have no reason to doubt your sincerety, I'm willing to believe you've had really wierd and powerful experiences on this drug, experiences that might seem more real than the shared experience we refer to as reality. But however powerful and convincing such experiences might be, they are stil trips and hallucinations. they might be so powerful that you cant believe they are, but there is no reason to think otherwise. Our brains are fallible machines that are rather easily tricked, and this can be done by everything from chemicals to religion to a simple optical illusion. And just because it is a "trick" iow our brains being manipulated to experience things that arent happening in reality, doesnt mean it cant have a major effect on peoples life, ie: give people a new perspective on things. But it is not an "astounding mystery" as such, but of course it would be interesting to research the exact interactions that it causes in our brains, and how exactly it works.
One big tell that these trips are trips, is that they almost always include pop-sciency/cultural stuff of the time. In earlier times it involved exotic or mythical animals, in the 50s or 60s or 70s it was aliens and UFOs and stuff like that, and now its quantum physics and speed of light etc. This is a pretty solid sign that we are dealing with references from our own brain, it is in other words not external or new knowledge that's being obtained or discovered in the trip.
These are comments from someone who clearly has not given this plant a chance. No, it is not quantum physics. I stay in the same room, it is evident by someone observing that I am in fact in the room. But, what I have seen and felt was on a quantum level. I was in fact for some reason flying at the speed of light. It sounds absolutely crazy because it is, that is why it should be studied. Why are so many so afraid to accept that whatever this is, is an astounding mystery?
I say give it a shot and find out for yourself. I was the same way, I thought it was hoopla too, then I found out. I doubt Science, bless its soul, will ever unlock this mystery.
Also, I do not condone the use of this by kids or young adults. This should stay far out of reach of them. Actually, now that I think about it, lol, it is probably not a good idea to promote this thing for this very reason.
Also, I am sorry for getting crazy at you BPM.
shagen454says...Obviously, the brain is being tricked into something. What that is, is yes an astounding mystery. See, as I said before there is only one way to test your theory is to invest ten minutes and find out. But, I am sure you would want to pussy foot around with 10mg for a long while until you got to the 40mg, "breakthrough" dose. Which, no one is ever prepared for.
It is not like any other drug. Two seconds in and the person is in a trance. The first time I did it, I really was not expecting what it felt like to go into trance as your mind slips through some sort of portal into the unknown. Seeing pure energy, geometry, with eyes closed. I remember before I did it, I was interested in many aspects of it, seven foot tall black entities were never something I thought about or fantasized about. It is not some fear of mine. I was interested in seeing the afterlife.... and on the way maybe I would see that all the geometric mayan/eastern mandala stuff was bullshit. I wanted to discount the experience as well. But, I could not. And in fact I can see where the influence comes from even if the patterns one sees on this are far more intricate beyond the human imagination. Surely, this is a state the yogi, the buddhist, hindu monks spend their lives trying to get to.
I have given this to close friends. Afterwards, I give it some time and eventually I ask do you think that came from your imagination? And no one believes it does. A lot of what they saw came from absolutely no pop culture references. It came from nothing except knowing very little about it and trusting that I was not going to pop them to the other side of the universe. I still do not know where you are getting your assumptions from? No one knows of anything for sure. We hardly know anything about anything. Repeat that in your head.
I believe in Science first and foremost. But, whatever this is challenges just about all preconceived notions we have of what we actually are to the core. And even if it all proves to be just a trip. It would still challenge the preconceived notions we have of what we actually are.
I have no reason to doubt your sincerety, I'm willing to believe you've had really wierd and powerful experiences on this drug, experiences that might seem more real than the shared experience we refer to as reality. But however powerful and convincing such experiences might be, they are stil trips and hallucinations. they might be so powerful that you cant believe they are, but there is no reason to think otherwise. Our brains are fallible machines that are rather easily tricked, and this can be done by everything from chemicals to religion to a simple optical illusion. And just because it is a "trick" iow our brains being manipulated to experience things that arent happening in reality, doesnt mean it cant have a major effect on peoples life, ie: give people a new perspective on things. But it is not an "astounding mystery" as such, but of course it would be interesting to research the exact interactions that it causes in our brains, and how exactly it works.
One big tell that these trips are trips, is that they almost always include pop-sciency/cultural stuff of the time. In earlier times it involved exotic or mythical animals, in the 50s or 60s or 70s it was aliens and UFOs and stuff like that, and now its quantum physics and speed of light etc. This is a pretty solid sign that we are dealing with references from our own brain, it is in other words not external or new knowledge that's being obtained or discovered in the trip.
BicycleRepairMansays...Iwould make the same sort of "assumptions" if you told me you had a new type of gasoline that could make cars fly. Its not that I'm some sort of car-genius, its just that I have some general knowledge about what cars are and where they come from.
The context is everything.
Just like modern cars are the result of an iterative process that stretches a hundred years, our brains are products of a purposeless biological evolution that has been churning away for hundreds of millions of years. Our consciousness is perhaps a bit like a driving computer in a modern car, its a byproduct of the ultimate purpose of the thing: in the case of a car, to make an optimal driving machine, in the case of the brain to make an optimal survival machine.
Our brain evolved for things like survival, parental care, tool-use, pattern recognition and language processing, probably roughly in that order.
EDIT: And consciousness emerges from a combination of these features.
It is in this context all claims about dualism ultimately must be seen: When and where in this process did the magical unicorns insert the secrets of the universe, or the eternal soul or whatever else into our brains?
Or are you just tripping?
My assumptions then , I make because its a whole lot less to assume than what I'd have to assume if the opposite was true.
I still do not know where you are getting your assumptions from? No one knows of anything for sure. We hardly know anything about anything. Repeat that in your head.
shagen454says...Your EDIT, is exactly what stood out. You still assume that we understand all of our biological behaviors and how they evolved. Look, this is starting to turn into Mr. Science arguing with some New Age Guru and I am starting to see some sort of silly social rift occurring.
Look at my posts. I believe in science, I LOVE science. I have always been a science nerd first and foremost. This is one experience where I think many just have to take the plunge and find out. This is just like science. Light it up and find out. No one could possibly describe what happens with any form of human communication. Test it. I am not trying to sell you anything, go make it yourself, it is easy to make... Then come back and tell me about our brains evolutionary process.
I would make the same sort of "assumptions" if you told me you had a new type of gasoline that could make cars fly. Its not that I'm some sort of car-genius, its just that I have some general knowledge about what cars are and where they come from.
The context is everything.
Just like modern cars are the result of an iterative process that stretches a hundred years, our brains are products of a purposeless biological evolution that has been churning away for hundreds of millions of years. Our consciousness is perhaps a bit like a driving computer in a modern car, its a byproduct of the ultimate purpose of the thing: in the case of a car, to make an optimal driving machine, in the case of the brain to make an optimal survival machine.
Our brain evolved for things like survival, parental care, tool-use, pattern recognition and language processing, probably roughly in that order.
EDIT: And consciousness emerges from a combination of these features.
It is in this context all claims about dualism ultimately must be seen: When and where in this process did the magical unicorns insert the secrets of the universe, or the eternal soul or whatever else into our brains?
Or are you just tripping?
My assumptions then , I make because its a whole lot less to assume than what I'd have to assume if the opposite was true.
BicycleRepairMansays...You may love science, but its little more than lip-service unless you actually take into account what science tells us before plunging into some spiritual nonsense about mother earth or whatever speaking to you when you're tripping.
I do not understand, or assume that anyone understand, all of our biological behaviors, nor exactly how they evolved. But that's my point about my car analogy: I don't know how a modern Lexus is made either, nor am I intimately familiar with the history/evolutions of car-designs in these last 100+ years or so. But, I can still confidently, perhaps arrogantly, claim that I'm pretty damn sure no magic was involved. Because that's not how car production works.
The same thing can be said for biological evolution, there was no involvement by a spiritual goddess that stepped in an made consciousness, that makes no sense, there's no evidence, and its likely to be nonsense for just so, so many reasons.
Your EDIT, is exactly what stood out. You still assume that we understand all of our biological behaviors and how they evolved. Look, this is starting to turn into Mr. Science arguing with some New Age Guru and I am starting to see some sort of silly social rift occurring.
Look at my posts. I believe in science, I LOVE science. I have always been a science nerd first and foremost. This is one experience where I think many just have to take the plunge and find out. This is just like science. Light it up and find out. No one could possibly describe what happens with any form of human communication. Test it. I am not trying to sell you anything, go make it yourself, it is easy to make... Then come back and tell me about our brains evolutionary process.
lurgeesays...I wish I could sell y'all's one of my manic episodes. Your senses will be altered and you will look at life in a different way. I once described three of my most powerful episodes to a coworker one time and he claimed that they were very similar to psychedelics that he did.
shagen454says...Please do share, Lurg.
I wish I could sell y'all's one of my manic episodes. Your senses will be altered and you will look at life in a different way. I once described three of my most powerful episodes to a coworker one time and he claimed that they were very similar to psychedelics that he did.
shagen454says...Jesus H Christ man.
If you can imagine this. Maybe you cannot because you lack any psychedelic experience. You take twenty sugar cubes of LSD. It comes on quick because you are taking a heroic dose,so in maybe ten minutes you feel it. Say you did that? You would trip HARD for a couple days maybe. Maybe a week. You would never get anywhere close to where DMT takes a person on one toke, in ten minutes. LSD is also a tryptamine like DMT, in fact LSD is a much more complex tryptamine.
So, you tell me. Why is it that after that first toke it takes seconds to pass the blood/brain barrier like sugar? Seems to me, that there is a neurological function for this experience, which would also cater to the fact of why it is so heavy. Forget the fact that you are going to feel like you are dead, that you have literally been killed, maybe that is what makes it spiritual; we live in a reductionist society as you clearly believe. Forget all of that. Why is it that this molecule is so far and beyond the other tryptamines, that one instantly goes into a trance? That is first and foremost. After scientists figure out that one, then they might be intrigued by the fact that the imagery is otherwordly, the sound are otherwordly that the experience is otherworldly. Again, no one knows why or how. But, for you. YOU SHOULD JUST SHUT UP AND DO IT
You may love science, but its little more than lip-service unless you actually take into account what science tells us before plunging into some spiritual nonsense about mother earth or whatever speaking to you when you're tripping.
I do not understand, or assume that anyone understand, all of our biological behaviors, nor exactly how they evolved. But that's my point about my car analogy: I don't know how a modern Lexus is made either, nor am I intimately familiar with the history/evolutions of car-designs in these last 100+ years or so. But, I can still confidently, perhaps arrogantly, claim that I'm pretty damn sure no magic was involved. Because that's not how car production works.
The same thing can be said for biological evolution, there was no involvement by a spiritual goddess that stepped in an made consciousness, that makes no sense, there's no evidence, and its likely to be nonsense for just so, so many reasons.
shagen454says...Not that this will prove anything for years to come, like I said Science and the medical industry moves SLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. When everyone could just be partaking in the most extraordinary human experience that a human can possibly have.
Wiley Online Library has a medical document titled: A critical review of reports of endogenous psychedelic N, N-dimethyltryptamines in humans: 1955–2010
Conclusion: "The answer to the question, ‘Are the tryptamine psychedelic
substances DMT, HDMT and MDMT present in the human body?’
is most likely yes. We believe that the preponderance of the mass
spectral evidence proves, to a scientific certainty, that DMT and
HDMT are indeed endogenous and can be measured in human
body fluids."
Even I was apprehensive as to whether it actually is endogenous. Now I just ask, Why, why, why? Science, baby.
At least there are some in the industry that believe it ought to be known. And for anyone that has ever ingested the grand daddy of psychedelics, of neuromodulation I am sure they were bought and sold on the idea that DMT is a huge discovery:
"Data regarding their peripheral dynamics – concentrations, circadian
variation, and metabolism – as assessed by rigorous
analytic methods applied to biological samples represent the
most accessible approach to beginning to determine their
possible role in human psychophysiology and should be
pursued."
"finally provide us an answer to the question: ‘Why do humans
produce endogenous psychedelics?’ The research thus far is
limited but there are many possibilities awaiting further
inquiry."
Obviously, there simply just is not enough data to suggest how consciousness is affected by these chemicals. Not enough funding, fear of funding, not enough profits to be made. When actually, if they figure out what this stuff is and does it would probably blast open vault door and reveal the secrets of the brain.Or we can just have the status quo and look forward to the next Iphone to cram our heads full of consumer bullshit.
You may love science, but its little more than lip-service unless you actually take into account what science tells us before plunging into some spiritual nonsense about mother earth or whatever speaking to you when you're tripping.
I do not understand, or assume that anyone understand, all of our biological behaviors, nor exactly how they evolved. But that's my point about my car analogy: I don't know how a modern Lexus is made either, nor am I intimately familiar with the history/evolutions of car-designs in these last 100+ years or so. But, I can still confidently, perhaps arrogantly, claim that I'm pretty damn sure no magic was involved. Because that's not how car production works.
The same thing can be said for biological evolution, there was no involvement by a spiritual goddess that stepped in an made consciousness, that makes no sense, there's no evidence, and its likely to be nonsense for just so, so many reasons.
BicycleRepairMansays...Look, I'm NOT saying we shouldn't look into this drug to see how it affects the brain, all that is interesting stuff, sure. I'm just saying we should approach it with the appropriate context which involves scientifically indisputable knowledge about the brain's (and all other biological material's) origin.
Its like this: suppose you find a cave somewhere on earth and it seems to be really deep: by all means, explore the cave, but if your theory is that the cave exits on mars on the other end, you aren't thinking straight, and your not taking into consideration what we already know. That's not how planets work.
I'm all with you on investigating the drug, I'm just calling bullshit on all the supernatural/spiritual hogwash being disguised as science.
dagsays...Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)
Perhaps the achilles heel of Ted is the lack of transparency. If TEDx decides that this is pseudo-scientific, who is TEDx? Is it one person? A board? What are the criteria? Why is there never any rebuttal allowed for presentations?
shagen454says...I understand, man. The only way to see that is to do it yourself, obviously if you do not want a spiritual experience, then you are well aware to stay clear.
Here is another article on the science behind how it works: http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/~cozzi/Indolethylamine%20N-methyltransferase%20expression%20in%20primate%20nervous%20tissue.pdf
Look, I'm NOT saying we shouldn't look into this drug to see how it affects the brain, all that is interesting stuff, sure. I'm just saying we should approach it with the appropriate context which involves scientifically indisputable knowledge about the brain's (and all other biological material's) origin.
Its like this: suppose you find a cave somewhere on earth and it seems to be really deep: by all means, explore the cave, but if your theory is that the cave exits on mars on the other end, you aren't thinking straight, and your not taking into consideration what we already know. That's not how planets work.
I'm all with you on investigating the drug, I'm just calling bullshit on all the supernatural/spiritual hogwash being disguised as science.
BicycleRepairMansays...Sigh. Its not that I dont want a "spiritual experience", its just that the "spiritual" DOES NOT EXIST. This is chemicals reacting with the neurons in your brain, making you think you are experiencing "spiritual" things. It doesn't matter that you go "you just dont understand,man, try it yourself" blahblahblah. I dont have to. Because whatever subjective experience I'll have or you've had, will not change some basic facts that we all have to deal with: That we , along with our brains and our consciousness, are evolved biological phenomena that abide by the laws of physics. We even know that the brain is a fallible instrument thats just SO easy to fool, you dont even need drugs. Right now there are literally billions of people who are wasting almost their entire life believing in nonsense, They use laptops, mobile phones, planes and they've seen the freaking moonlanding, and they think a freaking Palestinian zombie was the son of god who rescued us from collective sin because a couple ate a fruit recommended by a talking snake.
And that's not even the dumbest religion.
People believe such bullshit because they are not really thinking straight , not taking in the facts discovered by science, not understanding the process by which such discoveries are made, not understanding the carefulness by which they are doublechecked, not understanding the implications that such discoveries have.
I understand, man. The only way to see that is to do it yourself, obviously if you do not want a spiritual experience, then you are well aware to stay clear.
Here is another article on the science behind how it works: http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/~cozzi/Indolethylamine%20N-methyltransferase%20expression%20in%20primate%20nervous%20tissue.pdf
shagen454says...How do you KNOW?
Physics is something that is only beginning to be understood. The Laws of Physics are subjective to change. We will probably find out soon whether the speed of light is a constant it may be that the speed of light is not a constant.
My point is, is that we have barely even tipped our toes into the way everything works, while I trust science much more than any religion I am not arrogant enough to think that there are fundamental aspects of reality that we simply do not understand on any level.
Another point is, if you ever take DMT. Most people have no words to describe what they see. As stupid monkey humans we have defined vague terms to mean something. Even if someone thinks a DMT experience is spiritual, so what? Because it is chemicals in the brain? What basis do you have to say that having a spiritual experience is not considering it is based upon the science of the Universe? Spiritual, God, dark matter, death, even consciousness are terms that ill defined with monkey brains.
I think you believe that "spiritual" must mean dogmatic religion. Science in itself can be "spiritual", contemplating the Universe can be "spiritual". I repeat that term because at this point in our culture-less society that term is taboo. I know some people consider FUCKING to be "spiritual". I am not implying that I believe in any religion, I do not, at all. DMT is like experiencing the Universe in your own head. It is the one and only experience that is convincing enough to say that we know very little, it is the most humbling and powerful experience there is. And if there is one using endogenous chemicals, more powerful, I do not want to even know about it, myself.
I cannot figure out what you are trying to debate? That there is no science behind DMT? That there is nothing to DMT? That "spiritual" does not exist? What is your point of this continued conversation? That you are scared of psychedelics? Why do you think such an experience would have been programmed into our head, the most powerful experience a person can have? How do you think DNA evolved over so many years, you ever read Francis Cricks, who helped found DNA, what his theory for DNA was? Panspermia. Yeah. The Universe is a lot trickier than just our basic Science.
One thing is clear, you are never going to know what I am talking about until you have that experience. Why not? It has never killed anyone... you will think you have died because what you are witnessing is alien and defies explanation. It will be so awesome, that you will not even care that you died or think you have died. People should do it, even if it is just to be in awe of what your own vessel is capable of doing.
Sigh. Its not that I dont want a "spiritual experience", its just that the "spiritual" DOES NOT EXIST. This is chemicals reacting with the neurons in your brain, making you think you are experiencing "spiritual" things. It doesn't matter that you go "you just dont understand,man, try it yourself" blahblahblah. I dont have to. Because whatever subjective experience I'll have or you've had, will not change some basic facts that we all have to deal with: That we , along with our brains and our consciousness, are evolved biological phenomena that abide by the laws of physics. We even know that the brain is a fallible instrument thats just SO easy to fool, you dont even need drugs. Right now there are literally billions of people who are wasting almost their entire life believing in nonsense, They use laptops, mobile phones, planes and they've seen the freaking moonlanding, and they think a freaking Palestinian zombie was the son of god who rescued us from collective sin because a couple ate a fruit recommended by a talking snake.
And that's not even the dumbest religion.
People believe such bullshit because they are not really thinking straight , not taking in the facts discovered by science, not understanding the process by which such discoveries are made, not understanding the carefulness by which they are doublechecked, not understanding the implications that such discoveries have.
BicycleRepairMansays...I cannot figure out what you are trying to debate? That there is no science behind DMT? That there is nothing to DMT? That "spiritual" does not exist? What is your point of this continued conversation? That you are scared of psychedelics? Why do you think such an experience would have been programmed into our head, the most powerful experience a person can have?
I have trouble understanding "spiritual" to be the same as "awesome" or "awe-inspiring", but if thats what you mean by "spiritual", I suppose we agree. I understand "spiritual" to mean "that which concerns the spirits or the spiritual world", ie something supernatural.
I suppose there is little point in continuing this debate, I get a little carried away.. My point ws only that it is unscientific and nonsensical to think that stimulating your brain with chemicals can help you discover some sor of spiritworld or some nonsense like that, the reason I KNOW this, as you put it, is what I've fruitlessly to express over several long comments. Basically, to repeat myself for like the 5th time, it has to do with basic facts of the origin of our brains and so forth, it is now established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that our brains evolved. If you understand what biological evolution is and how it works, you'd know it is the mindless reshuffling of nucleotides acted upon in populations of animals over countless generations, this produces amazing survival machines, and some of them develop brains, and some of those grow big brains.
How do you think DNA evolved over so many years,
DNA probably evolved after RNA, nobody knows exactly how replicating nucleotides started to replicate, it was probably a staggeringly unlikely event, but then there was literally all the time and space in the universe for it to happen..
you ever read Francis Cricks, who helped found DNA, Well, I've read The Double Helix, and I'm currently studying biology and genetics.
what his theory for DNA was? Panspermia. Yeah.
No,
It was speculation, probably tongue-in-cheek that he later regretted. In any case, the argument was based on the fact that the origin of DNA/RNA was an extremely unlikely event, and that if it didn't originate on earth, it could have been brought here from elsewhere. Both options are essentially saying the same thing, that abiogenesis happened and that it later evolved (either here on earth, like most scientist now think, or somewhere else.)
It doesnt really matter whether directed panspermia is true or not, DNA is still strings of molecules that abide by the laws of physics and chemistry. They are not some sort of magical quantum spirit crystals mind-controlled by aliens.
The Universe is a lot trickier than just our basic Science.
Whatever you say boss.
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