INCONCEIVABLE!

Never mess with a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line.

>> ^ponceleon:
INCONCEIVABLE!

It is all kind of awesome that

A) everyone recognized the quote immediately
B) no comments about the actual topic

Very succinct and TRUE summary of the situation.

What was new to me was the explanation of the Israeli justification of assymetric casualties. Great sift.

>> ^longde:
Very succinct and TRUE summary of the situation.
What was new to me was the explanation of the Israeli justification of assymetric casualties. Great sift.


i disagree with that justification.
you would think that for a people that suffered so greatly in so many terrible ways would at LEAST have the cognitive understanding what they are perpetrating on another people.
the term "jewish people" is not an entirely representative statement.there are many jewish nationalities.which particualr jewish tribe was promised isreal by the british empire?khazars,newly converted.
does that make them any less jewish?of course not.
i only state these things to lend context to an otherwise entangled situation.
before the amended balfor declaration 3 million lived in jerusalem peacefully,christian,jew and muslim,that changed with the balfor declaration.
so i do agree with his premise on the wrongs of empirialism,and its long-lasting affects.
but i heartily disagree with his justification for it assumes that all jews are the same.they are not.

This was more of a "Never get involved in a land war in Asia" clip.

He wasn't justifying the Isreali position, so much as explaining the reasoning behind it. I don't think it justifies their policies, either.

>> ^ponceleon:
It is all kind of awesome that
A) everyone recognized the quote immediately
B) no comments about the actual topic


C) Everyone is pissed at ponceleon for beating us to the punch.

>> ^longde:
Very succinct and TRUE summary of the situation.
What was new to me was the explanation of the Israeli justification of assymetric casualties. Great sift.


I really don't get the asymmetry point... ponceleon makes an excellent one, however!

>> ^NetRunner:
This was more of a "Never get involved in a land war in Asia" clip.


Was this part of a greater video guide to playing Risk then?

Agree the notion of assymetrical casualties sounded a bit unfounded but I think the greater issue he was trying to make was that in a state of mind of perpetual struggle against, still perhaps in the mindset of many Israelis, people they believe they have not wronged in any way, any form of retaliation, and therefore any degree of loss of life on behalf of the Palestinians that may result is entirely justifiable. Whether that belief comes from some kind of religious validation or a selective historical outlook that ignores the occupation since 1967, or some other justification is uncertain. The main point though is, if it's a perpetual war and there is supposedly no perspective for a ceasefire, then casuality numbers lose any relevance in an endless struggle.

As much as I would like to hope that the Israeli people and their politicans will see through the counterproductive effect of their continued occupation and further building of settlements, I'm much more inclined to believe that people stuck in a particular situation simply become more deadset in their views and develop a more rigid us versus them mentality that prohibits any form of comprimise.

While Shawn/Vecini/Zek did a fine job describing the hard-line Isreali side of the debate, he did VERY little to describe the hard-line Arab position the Isrealis are forced to deal with.

Whether you think the 'world' should have given the Jews Isreal after World War 2 or not is academic. What is done is done and Isreal - for better or for worse - is there to stay. No amount of hand-wringing, moaning, and bellyaching is going to change that fact. Unless you subscribe to the need for a second holocaust then Isreal as a Jewish State is an immutable reality that must be accepted.

The REAL problem here is not Isreali 'lopsided responses' when attacked. The real problem is the fact that Isreal is making a VERY simple request. "Accept Isreal as a Jewish State". And that simple request is flatly rejected by Palestine, Iran, Egypt, and pretty much every player in the game. I mean, get real. Isreal could respond to Arab attacks by lobbing kittens, cottonballs, and dryer lint and they'd still get massive hate for it.

It is all well and good to belly ache about the ‘hardline Isreali stance’. But to completely ignore that the hardline Arab stance is FAR more extremist does nothing to advance this discussion. Until the Arab world is willing to go on the record and acknowledge Isreal as an official Jewish state then there is really nothing to discuss at all. If they can’t even bring themselves to allow Isreal to EXIST then this whole issue is pointless. There can be no peace when the hardline Arab position is so extreme. And you know what? That ISN'T Isreal's fault.

Religion is bad, m'kay?

This isn't really about religion. Nor is this about Every Israeli thinking a Palestinian kid throwing rocks is Hitler's successor.
For most Israelis, this is about two things, really:
1) Not living under constant threat of terrorism. Blame us for this if you will, but the reality right now is that there is a large Palestinian terrorist organization that doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist, much less Israel as a Jewish state. Comparing death tolls does nothing to describe thousands of people living under the threat of missiles before the recent Gaza operation.
2) Not allowing the Palestinian right of return. The Palestinians can't have it both ways: they can't have a state and have a sizable population in the state of Israel. This will effectively end Israel's existence.

Since "Inconceivable" was already used, I'll just throw out:

"PAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR!"

How is it not about religion? The entire region hinges on who's magical guy in the sky is "right."

But when he thinks of those voluptuous Risian females... Quark - get his toothpick and some chilled tubegrubs!

His main argument is based on the 34th Rule of Acquisition.

>> ^ponceleon:
How is it not about religion? The entire region hinges on who's magical guy in the sky is "right."


If you take Bill Maher's word for it. But come see for yourself. Most Israelis are secular, and other than celebrating the holidays and not working on Sabbath, have little to do with religion. While the government does have religious representatives they are a minority as they are in the populace, and while the army does have officers in charge of religion, they are there only to supply religion services (to non-Jews, as well, BTW).
I know less of the Palestinian side, but I imagine that Hamas draws strength from the living conditions in the occupied territories to a greater degree than it does from religion (and naturally religion draws strength from the same). One example for this is the perception of Hamas as less corrupt than Fatah (which was discussed here a while ago), which becomes critical when resources going into the territories are limited.

At the very least, I must believe that the main issues in this conflict are practical in nature. Any other option would mean there is no solution to the conflict. The majority of the population in Israel (that is, the secular population) is raised to think otherwise.

Obviously things are a bit more complex, but the general idea remains.

Perhaps there are those that are secular, but everything I've seen leads me to believe that at its core, this conflict is about countries that were theologically founded. Things may have become more "cultural" or "secular" or whatever, but at its most basic element, these conflicts are about which magic cookimajiki in the sky is the right one to pray to.

Just look at these fine characters:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Feeling-the-Hate-In-Jerusalem-on-Obama-s-Cairo-Address#comment-778152

There will be no compromise till people stop believing in their magic hajooji in the sky and start realizing that we are all human beings.

everything i see leads me to believe that at its core the conflict is political and economical and simply uses religion as its moderator.

>> ^alizarin:
His main argument is based on the 34th Rule of Acquisition.


There's a rule 34?

Rule #34: "War is good for business."
Rule #35: "Peace is good for business."

His message is extremely subtle and strikes a beautiful balance between polar perspectives. He is just SUCH a compelling presence, though.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker: The real problem is the fact that Isreal is making a VERY simple request. "Accept Isreal as a Jewish State".

Did you even watch the video? Both sides need to expand their perspectives, both sides need to take responsiblity and both sides need to be willing to take steps to fix the situation.

Oh yeah, and the people with nukes, attack choppers, artillery, tanks and white phosphorous should probably stop taking cheap shots at the people bottled up in the worlds largest concentration camp with nothing more than assault rifles and the occasional RPG. It's like watching Mike Tyson beat up a kid in a wheelchair.

Did you even watch the video?

Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, I saw the whole video. And no, I still don't understand how Isreal asking to be acknowledged as a Jewish State by the Arab world could possibly be anything except a the most basic, logical, reasonable request in the history of diplomacy. It is the equivalent of asking, "We request that you admit Jews are human and deserve to live."

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
Did you even watch the video?
Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, I saw the whole video. And no, I still don't understand how Isreal asking to be acknowledged as a Jewish State by the Arab world could possibly be anything except a the most basic, logical, reasonable request in the history of diplomacy. It is the equivalent of asking, "We request that you admit Jews are human and deserve to live."


But it is since a good portion of Israelis are not jewish

>> ^gwiz665:
>> ^alizarin:
His main argument is based on the 34th Rule of Acquisition.

There's a rule 34?


PUH-lease.. im only dignifying that with a response so that no one else has to!

You're wellllllllcome!


"rule 76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies. "

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

It is all well and good to belly ache about the ‘hardline Isreali stance’. But to completely ignore that the hardline Arab stance is FAR more extremist does nothing to advance this discussion. Until the Arab world is willing to go on the record and acknowledge Isreal as an official Jewish state then there is really nothing to discuss at all. If they can’t even bring themselves to allow Isreal to EXIST then this whole issue is pointless. There can be no peace when the hardline Arab position is so extreme. And you know what? That ISN'T Isreal's fault.


I think you missed his point or perhaps I see it just a little bit different. I think you were blinded in your desire to defend Israeli or attack the surrounding Arab nations. *shrug* We all tend to jump to conclusions once in a while.

It seems to me that he is describing the Israeli hardliner stance and why American politicians are incorrect for strongly supporting the hardliners.

You only took away the first part of the point and seem to moved on to a response of "well what about the Arabs!?!?" - without recognizing that the explanation portion is only the reasoning for why he believes the American politicians are doing more harm than good by supporting the Israeli hardliners.

Or at least that is the way I see it.

Tell ya what, how about we take half of your property and force you off it. Then we try to take the other half of your property. Oh, and please recognize that it is our right to do so.

And religion? The whole place could be one big friendly country if they didn't despise each other's races, and in this case the races are defined by their religions. It is so fundamental to the argument that many are blind to it.

There are Arabs and Palestinians currently in Isreal, but Isreal always is and has been a territory designed to be a place for a "Jewish/Zionist" state. That was the whole reason it was set up in the first place. Citizens are not required to be Jewish to live there though. Non Jews live, hold jobs, and even hold political office. The request is more a symbolic gesture than anything else - which is why I think it is pretty stupid for the Arab world to be getting their burqas in a bind over the issue. It isn't like if they admit it is a "Jewish" state that means Israel is going to run every non-Jew out of the place on a rail.

*dead

This video has been declared non-functional; embed code must be fixed within 2 days or it will be sent to the dead pool - declared dead by critical_d.

cogent reply to Mr. Wallace and his supporters on this issue.
[url redacted]

I t'ought I smelled a choggie....