No qualms with your first premise, but the second seems a bit too simplistic. If we have learned anything from history, it would seem as though we could never assume that people who believe in religious books are always in violent agreement with one another. On the contrary, the history of western civilization is filled with stories of the violent disagreements between people who believe in religious books (hence the depictions in the video).

Shared belief in a religious book does not imply shared belief about the book's meaning, which means there can still be contexts in which quoting the book can be appropriate in rational argumentation intended to convince others (for whom the content of the book is considered meaningful)of this or that conclusion. [e.g. my overly long comment above]

>> ^MonkeySpank:

FYI,
Quoting a religious book is never a good thing in a hypothetical argument because of two things:
1) People who don't believe in religion will never take your book for a fact, but rather as a weakness.
2) People who believe in religious books are already in violent agreement with you, and you don't need to convince them any more.

>> ^shinyblurry:
There is only one way to eternal life, and that is through Jesus Christ. If you want to know Him, find a quiet place and pray that He enter your life, and let Him take it over. Don't make the request unless you are willing to turn yourself, and your life completely over to God. God bless.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

>> ^vaire2ube:
imagine the double rainbow!!
he says we should accept our mortality, but stopping aging and melding minds with technology to live forever is kinda my hope. I enjoy watching this all unfold and id like to continue to.

It seems to me that one of the basic tenets of orthodox Christianity is the belief that humans are incapable of being totally committed to the service of God, of worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth, or even of having faith at all prior to their regeneration and new life in Christ. To suggest that it is necessary (and therefore possible) for us to make a total submission of our will to the will of God before we invite Christ to enter our life and take over is to put the cart before the horse, for the very reason we need Christ to "take over" our lives is the fact that we are incapable of obedience (willing submission) on our own. If we could do it before receiving divine assistance, we could do it apart from divine assistance, which renders Christ unnecessary, which no orthodox Christian would ever affirm. In fact, we cannot even be willing to submit (which, to be sure, is different from willing submission) prior to the reception of grace. To think otherwise is to fall into the heretical trap of Pelagianism, which has been condemned among orthodox Christians since the 4th century.

And so, Augustine argues that if, as the Bible says, God creates in the believer a new heart to replace their heart of stone, then we cannot assume "without absurdity" that "there previously existed in any man the merit of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his stony heart, when all the while this very heart of stone signifies nothing else than a will of the hardest kind and such as is absolutely inflexible against God. For where a good will precedes, there is, of course, no longer a heart of stone."

...which is why Anselm prays "Teach me to seek you, and reveal yourself to me, when I seek you, for I cannot seek you, except you teach me, nor find you, except you reveal yourself."

...and Aquinas reasons "a man cannot turn to God except through God turning him to himself."

...and Luther writes a whole treatise on "The Bondage of the Will"

And, to be sure, they all consider themselves to be drawing logical conclusions from what they read in the Bible, quoting passages like:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44)
"You did not choose me, I chose you" (John 15:16)
"Without me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)
"Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned." (Lamentations 5:8)
"By grace you have been saved, through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)


So, in sum, orthodox Christians have, for at least 1500 years or so, agreed that there is nothing humans can do on their own to prepare themselves (i.e. be worthy of) the reception of grace(i.e. to have a new life in Christ in which he "takes over") -which is precisely why Christians have no reason to boast. To say we must do something first, whether it be "to believe" or "have faith" or "be willing to obey," before we can receive grace (a life in Christ) is to treat grace as a reward, which no orthodox Christian would maintain. I'm sorry to say, what you have asked of us is not only impossible, it appears to be unchristian (which, to be fair, I'm sure was not your intention).

I applaud your desire to share your faith. I encourage you to learn more about it.


>> ^shinyblurry:

The reason I said that is because God requires a total commitment. God is looking for people who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. So, if you're half-hearted about it that isn't going to get you anywhere. God will provide the evidence that He is there, but you have to be willing to give your life to God first.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
>> ^dr_izzybizzy:
So...doing X will lead to paradise, not doing X will lead to endless misery?
For curiosity's sake, why shouldn't I ask Jesus to take control of my life if I'm not ready (i.e. what would be the negative consequence of doing so)?
>> ^shinyblurry:
There is only one way to eternal life, and that is through Jesus Christ. If you want to know Him, find a quiet place and pray that He enter your life, and let Him take it over. Don't make the request unless you are willing to turn yourself, and your life completely over to God. God bless.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
>> ^vaire2ube:
imagine the double rainbow!!
he says we should accept our mortality, but stopping aging and melding minds with technology to live forever is kinda my hope. I enjoy watching this all unfold and id like to continue to.

So...doing X will lead to paradise, not doing X will lead to endless misery?

For curiosity's sake, why shouldn't I ask Jesus to take control of my life if I'm not ready (i.e. what would be the negative consequence of doing so)?

>> ^shinyblurry:

There is only one way to eternal life, and that is through Jesus Christ. If you want to know Him, find a quiet place and pray that He enter your life, and let Him take it over. Don't make the request unless you are willing to turn yourself, and your life completely over to God. God bless.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

>> ^vaire2ube:
imagine the double rainbow!!
he says we should accept our mortality, but stopping aging and melding minds with technology to live forever is kinda my hope. I enjoy watching this all unfold and id like to continue to.

So, let me get this straight, because our primitive ancestors were afraid of the unknown, they came up with religion -a system of beliefs and practices based on mythical stories of the past about how we got here (creation) and prophetic visions about where we are going in the future depending on what we do in the present (doing X will lead to paradise, not doing X will lead to endless misery). Now that we have technology and scientifically enlightened minds, we should do away religion and base our knowledge on facts and evidence...

and this argument is presented to us by way of a mythical story of the past which presents no facts or evidence for many of its major claims -"we were confused when we opened our eyes", "we got scared," "we held our chests high and we feared no enemies, but we entered into a world of mystery", etc. (On what basis can we claim to know anything about the thoughts/feelings/motivations of primitive humans?) Then we get a prophetic vision of the future intended to change our behavior in the present -change and we can live in peace with nature and everyone else, have our lives fulfilled, and "connect to the true wonder of the universe." However, if we don't change, we're doomed to a future of suffering, terror, and violence.

So- doing X will lead to paradise, not doing X will lead to endless misery. And the problem with religion is...our "X" is true and theirs isn't. And, though we lack facts or evidence to support crucial elements of our belief that X is true, we can have faith that it is so because...

uh-oh

If you used this power too much, you would end up much older (physically) than your peers

The fact that "the guards say they are powerless to end the abuse" is completely ridiculous. The reason the abuse continues is simply gross negligence on the part of the corrections staff, plain and simple. I work in one of the largest maximum security prisons in the country. Most of the men I deal with on a daily basis are serving life sentences for murder. You don't need 600 million dollars to fix the problem (as the officer suggests), you need officers who do their job. What was the reason they don't have an officer watching the inmates at all times? -- "They can't function," "they don't like the idea of having an officer with them"...so what? "They want to run things"...ok so, you let them?

Why in the world would officers only see the men when they're feeding them or making a head count? Especially when you know that they are brutally attacking one another when you're not around?

Unfortunately, I fear that violence continues like this in jails and prisons because it is tacitly condoned, if not perpetuated, by the corrections staff. It is a means of control - keep them afraid of each other, and leverage for extortion, as we see in Shawshank," "do this or I'll cast you down with the Sodomites."

Another thing I've learned...people in prison (both employees and inmates) act very very different when cameras are around.

Interesting that there is also no mention on these lists of New Zealand (#1 on the "peace" scale and 55.6% Christian), Canada (#8 and 77% Christian), The Republic of Ireland (#12 and 90% Christian), Portugal (#14 and 85% Christian), Qatar (tied with Germany at #16 and 77.5% Muslim)

What a silly argument. Not only should the makers of this video learn the basic difference between correlation and causation, they should also have a history and anthropology lesson as well. The USSR, China, and North Korea were (and still are in the case of the latter two) "non-theistic," though certainly not classifiable as "peaceful."

I wonder what the correlation is between levels of violence and uncritical acceptance of mindless propaganda films...

>> ^bcglorf:

He was one of the people who laid them in the first place. Yeah I know he was just a kid back then, and pretty much just doing what he was told to do, even though he could have refused and paid the consequence.

Yeah, let's see how you'd have turned out if at five years of age the government came in and executed your parents and then conscripted you into the army.


Don't you know? Only adults are excusable for "just following orders." Traumatized children must pay the price! We suffer the guilt of our fathers...

As long as that's clear I'm good, well, more like depressed but in agreement

Agreed. Let our disgrace cover us.

>> ^bcglorf:

It is safe to say that, for all it matters, any mines laid by the Khmer Rouge were NOT western made.


So the particular mine in this video appears to be a PMN-2 which was made by the former USSR. But, it is the case that the Khmer Rouge used US made landmines (for example, the M16A1 and the M14-- NB: interesting article on how they work) This information can be easily gained with roughly 10 seconds of patience and a willingness to think before you act (something we in the US suck at). Hell, it is in the previous link I posted.


Landmines were the very least of anybody's crimes in Cambodia. Kissinger and his western kin have far more blood on their hands from carpet bombing.

My point is not that the Khmer Rouge were not assholes --they totally were. And so were we. We're all assholes. And until we go ahead and acknowledge that--we'll keep playing the finger pointing game and forget to pay attention to one of the greatest crimes continuing today. That people, right now, are suffering in Cambodia and other places like it and we're doing nothing to help.

The question should not be "who is responsible for making or placing these land mines" the question should be "who has a responsibility to help make a place where there are no land mines." Let the dead bury the dead--who will care for the living?

>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^alizarin:
>> ^zor:
Great sift! I've never seen anything like that before. Now, on to find the assholes who made those and sold them.

That'd be us - "mines found in Cambodia have been manufactured in the US, China, Vietnam, the former USSR and East Germany, the former Czechoslovakia, India, Chile, South and North Korea, Thailand, Iran, Iraq, South Africa, Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Poland." - article
As of 2007, a total of 158 nations have agreed to [ban landmines]. Thirty-seven countries have not agreed to the ban, including China, India, Israel, Pakistan, Russia and the United States.
We deserve a swift kick to the nuts!

Actually, the particular mines this guy is defusing would NOT be us(the western world). The video description is clear that the Khmer Rouge(communists) were the ones that laid the fields he is clearing.
I know it may seem anal but the details of how these atrocities went down are important to remember and have straight.



I believe the question was "who made the landmines" not "who laid the landmines" in which case the WEsterners would be among the culprits.
"The CMAC reports that mines found in Cambodia have been manufactured in the US, China, Vietnam, the former USSR and East Germany, the former Czechoslovakia, India, Chile, South and North Korea, Thailand, Iran, Iraq, South Africa, Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Poland."

"I know it may seem anal but the details of how these atrocities went down are important to remember and have straight."

Yawn. http://www.videosift.com/video/Super-Foam-Inventor-Takes-Shovel-Blows-to-the-Head