What he did was violent and terrible. He's no hero. His manifesto, however, if you can separate it from his final act of violence is an accurate assessment of America and our government.

Powerful stuff. I can kind of see why he was pissed off.

Violence against innocent bystanders is unequivocally wrong, but at what point does violence become self defense? There wasn't a single innocent person working in that building. You shouldn't have to crash a plane into a building to get people to realize this, but what else is going to wake people up at this point?

>> ^imstellar28:
Violence against innocent bystanders is unequivocally wrong, but at what point does violence become self defense? There wasn't a single innocent person working in that building. You shouldn't have to crash a plane into a building to get people to realize this, but what else is going to wake people up at this point?


So..... working for the government is justification for death?

Tough talk from a spoiled brat.

Imma kill you, gomiment!
>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
>> ^imstellar28:
Violence against innocent bystanders is unequivocally wrong, but at what point does violence become self defense? There wasn't a single innocent person working in that building. You shouldn't have to crash a plane into a building to get people to realize this, but what else is going to wake people up at this point?

So..... working for the government is justification for death?
Tough talk from a spoiled brat.

I didn't say death was an appropriate punishment for working at the IRS (its not), I said there isn't an innocent person working there. Its no different than being a police officer who enforces drug laws, or a solider who invades a sovereign country. So yeah, while I think you shouldn't fly planes into buildings; (didn't I say that in my post?) what else is this guy going to do? Walk in there and charge them with a crime? Kidnap them and keep them in a homemade jail? Nobody has a way to punish these people or defend themselves...thats what initiates vigilante justice - and vigilante justice is often as swift as it is brutal.

If you don't want vigilante justice, then you should support a lawful government that punishes all criminals - including those working for the government itself. I'm not going to applaud a vigilante, but I'm not going to condemn one either. Look at Central/South America...police are often corrupt and sometimes refuse to punish criminals. The people usually are too scared to act, but sometimes an evil enough criminal comes along and they burn him in the streets. Is that justice? Probably. Is it civilized? No. Is it better than violent criminals roaming around unpunished and unafraid? I'd say yes.

Personally, I'd rather live in a society where criminals are (over) punished by mob/vigilante justice than one where criminals are not punished at all. Maybe you have a different opinion, but who doesn't? You shouldn't take such a unilateral view to the subject because your ideas are far from enlightened. There is a lot of the world you haven't experienced, and I don't think you are nearly wise enough to patronize the views of others.
>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
>> ^imstellar28:
Violence against innocent bystanders is unequivocally wrong, but at what point does violence become self defense? There wasn't a single innocent person working in that building. You shouldn't have to crash a plane into a building to get people to realize this, but what else is going to wake people up at this point?

So..... working for the government is justification for death?
Tough talk from a spoiled brat.

Either you're not being serious, or you're too ignorant to make meaningful statements. There were far more than IRS (or even government) workers in that building. The IRS office was merely one of many.

Frankly, in my opinion, attempted mass murder precludes any consideration of your point of view. Especially when you're whining about how the government ruined your life, by burning your $300k home and crashing your private plane.

I only wish -my- life sucked as bad as his did...

Violence against the government only serves to strengthen them and gives them validation for their growing draconian laws. I agree it's sad that when the government aggresses against the people, people tend to think it was deserved and warranted because our indoctrination system teaches us what government does is right, just and good even if it's achieved at the barrel of the gun.

This guy believes the same thing millions of people do, including people in this thread. How a particular man chooses to act on a belief has nothing to do with the validity of the belief itself.

You are simply invoking an emotionally charged term in an attempt to conceal the irrationality of your view - from yourself. If your views are indeed sound, why don't you confront them without such devices?>> ^Stormsinger:
Frankly, in my opinion, attempted mass murder precludes any consideration of your point of view.

You're free to believe whatever you like. I'll stand by my statement.

I'm not suggesting you change your point of view, I'm pointing out as a neutral observer that you aren't engaging in critical thinking. If you come across one term "mass murder" or "liberal" "abortion" or "atheist" for that matter...and suddenly you are unable to continue any discussion or consideration on the subject; then your thought process is truly paralyzed, and with it, much hope at all of any intellectual progress.
>> ^Stormsinger:
You're free to believe whatever you like. I'll stand by my statement.

My point is that I'm not about to waste time listening to, worrying about, or even investigating the concerns of someone who set out to kill dozens of people.

It seems obvious enough to me that there are plenty of other people far more deserving of my time and attention, which are only available in limited quantities after all.

American War of Independence, Estimated Death tolls:

* US:
o KIA and mortally wounded: 7,000
o Disease: 63,000
o TOTAL: 70,000

* UK:
o KIA and mortally wounded: 4,000
o Disease: 27,000
o TOTAL: 31,000

* Hessians:
o KIA and mortally wounded: 1,800
o Disease: 6,000
o TOTAL: 7,800
* TOTAL: 108,800

Are you suggesting we shouldn't listen to George Washington et. al? Human life is human life, you think it makes a difference whether war has been officially declared or not? If you willingly chose to give up your innocence, then come what may.

^Quite possibly the worst argument you've ever made.

So... this act of terrorism is the opening salvo of your revolution? And Joe Stack is the father of your cause?

Shortest. Revolution. Evar.

wait, are we seriously having a thread about justifying a mad man's murder rant?

I agree with Peggedbea in that the guy is a winnie and a complainer (who hasn't lost a bit or had to cash in a bit of one's IRA or 401K?... I have), but I think this is a very good discussion. Don't be that scared.

What would you consider "Operation Shock and Awe" in Iraq? How are the United States as a whole, any different than this man? We are all terrorists.
>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
^Quite possibly the worst argument you've ever made.
So... this act of terrorism is the opening salvo of your revolution? And Joe Stack is the father of your cause?
Shortest. Revolution. Evar.

-We- are not all terrorists. Stack certainly was. The US government can arguably be described as such. You may be, I don't know. -I- am most certainly not.

If you want to worship this nutcase as a hero, that's your business. He tossed away far more than I have because he felt "abused" over the actions he himself started. He's nothing and less than nothing to me...a whiner, a coward, and a mass murderer.

I'm done with this ridiculous debate.

>> ^imstellar28:
What would you consider "Operation Shock and Awe" in Iraq? How are the United States as a whole, any different than this man? We are all terrorists.
>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
^Quite possibly the worst argument you've ever made.
So... this act of terrorism is the opening salvo of your revolution? And Joe Stack is the father of your cause?
Shortest. Revolution. Evar.

If you admit the US can arguably be described as such, and you:
1. Don't condemn against its actions
2. Willingly fund its operations (tax dollars)
3. Act complacent, or even supportive

How are you not a terrorist? You don't commit the crimes personally, but you are providing both monetary and ideological support. If you hire someone else to pull the trigger, does that not make you a murderer just the same?
>> ^Stormsinger:
-We- are not all terrorists. Stack certainly was. The US government can arguably be described as such. You may be, I don't know. -I- am most certainly not.

Double-think much?

Let's recap what you've claimed...

The guy that crashed his personal plane into a building full of people (a few of which were government employees), was a poor abused soul forced to protest (the results of his attempt to evade his taxes) in the only way left to him.

Myself, who has protested against -every- war the US has been involved in during my lifetime, who pays taxes because I believe that members of a representative democracy -should- contribute to the common good, I am a terrorist.

I give you 1984, in the flesh. You can't fucking argue with logic of -that- quality.

Okay, before we get a little too sidetracked by imstellar's schizophrenic simultaneous condemnation and endorsement of violence, let's see if we can at least agree that Joe Stack's complaints didn't start or end with taxes.

Flipping through, I would summarize his grievances with government as:

1. Failing to stop GM corporate bosses from mistreating their workers
   
2. Bailing out GM without forcing a change in management
   
3. Not passing comprehensive health care reform
   
4. Tax laws are overly complex
   
5. Tax laws disproportionately benefit Catholic churches
   
6. Tax laws disproportionately benefit big business
   
7. There are two interpretations of every law, one for the rich, and one for everyone else
   
8. His neighbor had his pension stolen by a mismanaged corporation, and unions and government stood aside and let it happen
   
9. Lobbyists from Arthur Anderson (of future ENRON fame) helped open a loophole for companies to deny benefits to employees on a long term basis (by keeping them on as "independent contractors")
   
10. The US government closed military bases in California without concern for the negative effect on the local economy
    
11. After 9/11 the government overreacted with draconian flight security requirements
    
12. The government fined him $10,000 for failing to file a tax return, then later he got screwed by his tax accountant
    
13. During the current economic crisis, no CEO's are leaping to their death from their executive offices, instead they're making all their middle- and working-class employees take the plunge for them
    

He then closes by quoting Karl Marx, and juxtaposing the communist creed with what he sees as the capitalist creed. Specifically, he says:

The communist creed: From each according to ability, to each according to his need
The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed

I'll go out on a limb and say that the whole thing reads to me like a left-wing screed, not a right-wing one.

His chief complaint didn't seem to be that government does too much, but that government does things for the wrong people.

This doesn't change my assessment of him being a crazy person who killed a bunch of innocent people who should be condemned, but I find it kinda funny that people on the left and right are assuming he was an anti-government, anti-tax teabagger of some sort.

Must be the plane into IRS building thing. Fits into the general teabagger narrative too nicely.

I think the reason he tends to get lumped in with the teabaggers is that, even in the clarified list you post, the only real consistency is the idea that the government can't do anything right. If they downsize, they're guilty of not considering the local economy. If they increase security requirements, they're overreacting. It really does seem to lack any coherent view...it's just a laundry list of disconnected complaints. Which fits the general teabagger narrative even more closely than the plane into the IRS building.

@Stormsinger, I see your point, but the left bitches about government too. It's the type of complaints that really differentiate it.

Right wing complaints are usually all about not wanting to be told what to do. Left wing complaints are usually more about a perceived lack of equality.

There are also cultural differences. Lamenting that the government didn't put a stop to GM's abuse of its employees just isn't something the right-wing ever does. The rights of the management are always what they're worried about, as in "government shouldn't tell me how to run my business" kind of stuff.

Implying that the law applies differently to rich and to poor, that's a left wing cultural mainstay.

I could be wrong, but his complaints don't match the teabagger party platform very well, even if his ultimate decision to deal with his grievances by commiting violence against the IRS fits it to a tee.

You may be right...

Frankly, I'm too stressed out over my own financial situation right now to have a coherent discussion on the beliefs of hypocritical mass-murderers. I find even discussing him is just adding to the load, so I'm going to bow out of this discussion, and focus on taking care of myself and my wife.

It's the rich.

That's what the fucker doesn't comprehend; that's what most of the rightwing dinks can never seem to grasp.

Too few people are getting too great a share of the pie.

That is a problem in a nutshell, and all of this happy horseshit about government and collectivism and taxes is just beside the point.

The rich have too much money, and as such they have too much power.

The IRS is merely an extension of their will, nothing more.

And I've grown to hate the IRS.

^The government is the richest entity in this country by orders of magnitude.