A decade, huh? Time flies like a rocket. (Fruit flies like a banana.)

Upvote for Fruit Loop recall.

You're supposed to brush AFTER eating the sugary fruits...sheesh.

overworked into a stupor Where was this in the story?

I'm not here to bitch at you I just don't get the argument you make.

You then implied that these workers have to work 2 to 3 jobs ( hence stupor) just to make ends meet because those at the top are making too much.

What about the guy ( gal) at the top making fat stacks. I agree it does rub me wrong but still how does it directly hurt the minimum wage employee?


If the employee has has / develops skills he makes more. According to you logic this would be like robbing his fellow workmates, stealing money that can go towards them.

If you started you own company struggled to make ends meet and slowly built up a company should you not receive the fruits of you labor?

When you have an entry position what should you pay? Dishwasher should not be making 30K /yr ( 15$/hr). This is what you are generally saying.

My Boss had a 5 Million bonus and salary hike to near 4 million. Yes this pisses me off but it does not correlate to what I make.
Even if you took that and spread it across all employees ( 300k) it would only be about 30 bucks each.


Would you rather just see a cap of salaries to 1 Million?

They what if you suddenly became the next Gates or Jobs would you want to be paid what you are worth?

If you are going to go to 15$/hr why not more? Some could argue that this is too low? What about the company that made all salaries 70K the other year? 15$/hr seems pretty stingy.

I owned a car stereo install shop for about 15 years. People would come to me and ask how to make sure their car didn't get stolen. Every time, I'd tell them, "sell it and take the bus".

The object of car "security" is to make the thief go on to lower hanging fruit. If someone wants your "you've-paid-huge-money-to-make-virtually-impregnable" '86 Civic, they'll wait for you to approach it, put a knife to your throat (this being in Canada) and take your keys. To quote W.O.P.R. "The only winning move is not to play."

The fruit motif was...disturbing.

There's actually a kind of pineapple, often called Kona White, that has incredibly low acid content and is super sweet even without the miracle fruit to help. They're pretty hard to find, though, if you aren't on Hawaii.

Now I feel bad. I was going to try to grow these as an experiment about 1 1/2 years back...1)to see if I could up here and 2) to see what they're like. If I had, I would gladly mail you some fresh fruits, or dehydrate some for you. Now I might have to try this spring.

As to your second question...what's the age limit for 'older folks'? I certainly say it, but I'm 45....that's old, especially when you're as broken as I am.

@PlayhousePals ...in my house, shits can cause as many giggles as anything....sometimes more. I have a phone by the toilet, and I often call the wife just to say CWP (calling while pooping). It's always a good time. ;-)
EDIT:Also, for about a decade, we had the 'Jeff Goldblum Is Watching You Poop' meme with his giant bug eyed head above the head. Good times...good times.

I think we've just about reached the "agree to disagree" point. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that the other person keeps any of the truth the other said in their mind and mull it over. Thanks for the chat.

I agree that inhumane is a silly word. "Inhumane" acts are often acts only perpetrated by humans.

I dislike the argument about the fact that farm animals would go extinct if we didn't keep systematically breeding and killing them. So what? Then let them go extinct. I personally think it's morally accetable to let an animal go extinct naturally -- especially if the alternative is to perpetually keep them un-extinct just to, essentially, torture them for our pleasure. I do, however, agree with your later comment that it would be a clusterfuck to figure out what to do with the ones that do currently exist. Easiest solution: keep eating them but don't breed them. Unfortunate human consequence: meat would become expensive. Also, during the time that we eat off the rest of them, those workers could train for another (hopefully) less miserable job. I can't believe many, regardless of how they rationalize it, can enjoy killing something before its time.

I'm fully aware of how the slave comparison is a bit off the edge (I even said so), but it's a hyperbole for the purpose of making a point: it is immoral to treat any animal to pain and suffering -- regardless of how you treat any other one of them. One mercy killing does not absolve you of another horrific one.

I am not saying that animals are not always treated poorly and without thought for their comfort. I am just saying that they are not allowed into the safe moral haven that handicapped humans are let into. If we mercy killed even one handicapped person, there would be an uproar that deafened the world. A mercy killing. Imagine if they did any of the (even "humane") things they do to animals to a handicapped person. It would be morally disallowed to an extreme degree. I don't know why animals don't get the same treatment.

Again, when you bring anything up about "evolution", I roll my eyes. We're humans with supposed free will. We're supposed to be above that, right?

If every vegan food you ate was inedible and made you sick than either your cook does not know how to cook, it was gluten-free, or there was something horribly wrong with the food. Fresh fruit? Beans? Peanut butter? Nuts? Berries? Greens? Carrots? B12 supplements? They made you sick? Something you ate was horribly wrong.

Your Olympic athlete statement is just factually incorrect. I would think you'd google that before stating something as fact.

And agaiun. "Evolution". Yeah, that happened already. Let's move on.

Stop making me feel bad about my cats! I already confessed guilt! :-P I actually do spend a ridiculous amount of money so that the food is better than just crap. I'm lucky enough to be wealthy enough to do it and I am extremely thankful for that. And! The amount of wealth that cat videos have garnered for advertisers is hardly unproductive.

And my partner and I are also on board about not having kids. She and I both think they're the worst thing you could ever do to the planet, animals, or people. Utopia got it right.

@newtboy: Just to be clear, I really appreciate your comments. It's nice to talk to an omnivore who doesn't just respond with "I'LL EAT TWICE AS MUCH MEAT AS YOU DO TO MAKE UP FOR YOUR VEGANISM!" I'm trying to be objective, and I appreciate your attempt as well.

That being said...

I respect the genuine care you give to your animals. I didn't know you or your family (or both) owned such a farm. It does sound like you do, truly, meet their needs as animals. However, (and I hate to bring out the really controversial stuff), I'm sure plenty of slave-owners treated their slaves with genuine humanity. But that doesn't excuse the categorical enslavement of other beings. Despite all care given to those animals, they are still not able to live their natural lives as animals on earth. I don't see why our subjugation, no matter how "humane", can be considered anything less than "inhumane".

Now, the comparison to "most children in the world" is a moot one. Yes, of course everywhere there are going to be worse things happening. But the point is that we are rational, (hopefully) decent, higher-order-understanding-of-the-universe beings. Humans seem to like to cherry-pick when their huge brain is an excuse for greatness, or ignored and "we're just animals after all". So, just because there is suffering outside the scope of our influence, we do all have the ability to stop eating meat. Pretty easily, in fact, since there are tons and tons and tons of other means to get all the nutrition we need (not to mention way, way healthier means).

The point is that we are completely and totally (especially as upper-middle class 1st-world citizens) capable of not eating meat this very moment. You can't, however, change the living conditions in the slums of India by yourself right now.

And explain to me how mentally handicapped humans are not animals. What is the distinction? They are both objectively less intelligent. If anything, animals are more capable of surviving on their own. What makes mentally handicapped people any more special than animals? Just because they're human? That seems arbitrary. True, they should be treated differently because they are different animals, but I mean why should one be treated to our moral consideration and one should not? What makes humans so damn special?

And that "sustenance" argument is really, really misguided. As said above, you can eat an entire vegan diet and be probably even more healthy than an omnivore. And animals are not minimally suffering. Yes, a very cherished, rare group, as your animals are, are "minimally suffering", but many, many, many, many more are being horribly abused for that sustenance that can be gained elsewhere (with suffering of its own, truly. I always hear the "well, there are people given slave wages to pick vegetables in California". But, you'll be eating those vegetables and fruits anyway. That's an entirely other battle that needs to be waged in other ways, not through lack of consumption).

My assumption was not that 100% of farmers treat their animals inhumanely. My assumption was that billions of animals are being treated inhumanely. And the way parents treat their children is a red herring. That's not my argument at all. And again, it's outside the realm of my influence.

And to counter your last argument... my same argument above follows for the "food chain/web" argument. Once and for all:

We are rational, amazing, smart, complex and powerful beings on this planet. We have it within our power (each of us) to not eat meat. This is "against nature". But so is basically OUR ENTIRE CIVILIZATION. What makes us truly different from animals is that exact ability. To step back and choose our actions. Are you saying humans not capable of choosing their actions -- those with so much in the 1st world countries? That we're all forced to, by nature, to eat meat? That is the cognitive dissonance I speak of. That we're so special because we are rational beings, but at the same time we must eat meat because we are not rational human beings.

This entire argument was not endorsed by PETA, because they're a bunch of assholes -- but despite being assholes one can't argue that they have brought about change. Change comes from all angles. Grassroots, insane radicals, scientists, humanitarians. They all try to bring change in different ways and succeed influencing different groups. PETA's brazenness is its power. Large corporations, like McDonald's, must respond to such a power. Despite being assholes. Both of them.

--

I want to end on a note of humility -- that I admit to having that same cognitive dissonance when it comes to animals. As a cat owner, I often visualize the mound of turkey carcasses that both of my lovable kittens live on top of. And they truly are carnivores in that they cannot find sustenance outside of meat. How do I rationalize all the turkey deaths (my cats only exclusively eat turkey for some goddamn reason) just so I can have my lovable pets? I can't. And it kills me. Not sure if I'll get cats after they die.

--

Thanks for reading. That was a lot.

Anyone notice that some conclusions of the basic premise were drawn from the behavior of rats? It's kind of interesting how we all just kind of nod and smile when a scientist or psychologist draws conclusions about us from rodents. The reason that the rat is happy in rat happy land is because that is all the reason the rat is here; to be a rat. If a rat is getting his senses stimulated, physically and socially, he is going to be happy because there is nothing more to his life. There is more to our lives than having our senses stimulated by physical pleasures and social interactions.

We, unlike rats or any other animals, were created to have a relationship with our Creator. Existence in the material world will never fully satisfy anyone, because our hearts are longing for eternal, and not temporal satisfaction, which only God can give us. Our happiness on Earth is largely dependent on our conditions, and if our conditions are bad, happiness and peace are fleeting. Real life with God brings a lasting satisfaction and peace which transcends every circumstance of life, and a living hope which buoys the spirit and brings unending joy.

I agree with the idea of the cage, and that cage is the prison of sin. it has nothing to do with social connections, or lack thereof. Some of the most famous people on Earth, who have the whole world as their oyster, are addicted to drugs, depressed, disillusioned, and grasping for meaning in their lives. Sin is a spiritual prison which brings only death and destruction. In this life you reap what you sow, and the wages of sin is death. A seed thrown into dry ground, cracking under the noon-day sun, is not going to bear any fruit. So it is when people go into the desert of sin looking for paradise; the illusion will occasionally be dispelled by a mouthful of sand, but like a rat they keep going back to the trap.

There is a way out, because although we cannot pay for our own sins and escape the trap, the Lord Jesus Christ took the punishment for our sins so that we could be set free. On the cross, He paid the price for our sins, yours and mine; when we begin to trust Him as our Lord and Savior, He will give us a new life, and a new heart with new desires to turn away from sin and live according to His will. We are set free from the bondage, not only of addiction, but sin and death. He heals our deepest wounds and comforts us, he heals deep seated habits, depression and mental illness.

When you open the cage of sin and let the Lord in, this scripture begins to operate: 2Cor3:17 Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty

Just try and consume the WHO recommended sugar intake. About 24 grams per day. One can of Pepsi, 41 grams. Eat processed food and you will get up to 24 by breakfast.

"A new WHO guideline recommends adults and children reduce their daily intake of free sugars to less than 10% of their total energy intake. A further reduction to below 5% or roughly 25 grams (6 teaspoons) per day would provide additional health benefits.

Free sugars refer to monosaccharides (such as glucose, fructose) and disaccharides (such as sucrose or table sugar) added to foods and drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates."

*related=http://videosift.com/video/Mechanical-Minds-Nuclear-Fruit-Part-One

Lunar Dreams - Nuclear Fruit, Part Two has been added as a related post - related requested by ant on that post.

Mechanical Minds - Nuclear Fruit, Part One has been added as a related post - related requested by ant.