Absolutely. I believe that Newt's fidelity issues (given their frequency and consistency) are indicative of a larger lack of personal integrity that I don't find desirable in a presidential candidate. Legally it still does not disqualify him, but I'd sure as heck not vote for him, nor do I think he is above scrutiny. It's much like the people protesting abortion clinics getting abortions themselves, a la "The only moral abortion is my abortion", except replace "abortion" with "affair."

My point of replying to QM's rhetoric (of which the 'sift is familiar with) was to remind him that both cases must be treated the same, as it's just another crossover of sexual transgressions with political career. If he vilified Clinton during the Lewinksy scandal then he is obligated to similarly vilify Gingrich; the flip side being that if he supports Gingrich in spite of his flaws, then he must have opposed Clinton's impeachment in 1998.

P.S. I'm of the camp that thinks QM is just a very good troll and doesn't actually believe the stuff he says. But for the sake of the sift we still have to take his comments at face value.

In reply to this comment by RadHazG:
>> ^HaricotVert:

I had to read the entire Starr Report - yes, all of it (for a class) - and nowhere is it remotely suggested that Lewinsky was coerced into doing what she did (emphasis in your quote below). In fact, quite the opposite: she had very strong feelings for Clinton, who reciprocated much of them.
But that minor detail aside, it sounds like you and I are in agreement on the point of marital infidelity not outright disqualifying someone for the office of the Presidency. Since you're giving Newt a free pass on his moral/ethical scorecard, you must have similarly given Clinton a free pass during the scandal and believed he should have never been impeached in the first place. After all, any other position would just be a double standard, no?
>> ^quantumushroom:
A Republican isn't perfect? SOUND THE ALARM. Suddenly it's time for liberals to pretend to have ethics and morals again! Remember that sociopathic adulterer elected to the White House in the 90s with that whole 'Suck this or lose your job' thing in his past? Yeah, me neither.



marital infidelity is one thing, it's the way in which Newt handled and participated in it that I find reprehensible. Clinton got his dick sucked and lied about it (and more importantly actually went to court about it even if he did get off. no pun intended) and Newt has treated his wives as if they were little more than cars he kept trading off for a newer model after test driving the new one for a while on lease.

>> ^dannym3141:

>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^dannym3141:
>> ^bcglorf:
The tragedy is neither side wants to discuss the underlying problem of reaching an agreement on when life begins, and thus is granted full human rights.
People have trouble accepting conception as that point.
People have trouble accepting birth as that point.
What's worse, is people refuse to discuss that point as it makes them uncomfortable.

I think one side rejects discussion more than the other - no prizes for guessing which one. And if it's true that abortion IS murder, we're gonna have to build a few hundred jails for all the millions of women that are gonna be imprisoned for murder.
And the doctors, and anyone else involved. Maybe fathers too?
How about rape pregnancies? Should we force the mother to look after it? Maybe dump it in an orphanage? If god forbid someone got pregnant in this way, and the woman got rid of it, the woman could end up with a smaller sentence than the scumbag who raped her.
There are a fucking billion nuances that need sorting out, but they just want to shout each other down, or stand outside abortion clinics yelling at innocent people in the street.
The pro life community in general has its head up its own arse - it is currently legal; to change the law you must put forward a convincing, logical argument. By taking the approach they're taking, they're never gonna get anywhere. Not that i want them to.

I said nothing about sides, but I dare say neither side has much claim to focusing on presenting a convincing, logical argument. People are either murderers or haters of women and lovers of rapists. Both sides are equally negligent and stubborn in their refusal to recognize or even acknowledge the real underlying question.
You should note you even just did it yourself leaping right over any discussion of when life begins and went straight after people's heart strings over jailing millions of women and even jailing of rape victims.
Stop and have the logical discussion of when a fetus is a human and should be granted full human rights.

No, i didn't skip over anything - you can hardly expect me to discuss all aspects of abortion in a few paragraphs. I stated some of the issues that would need to be handled if the law is changed, i stated my opinion, and criticised the approach of pro-lifers. I think that is a logical thing to do - the law is the law and if they want to change it, it is they who need the convincing argument. That isn't because i'm pro-choice, that's just a fact of life.
I didn't intend tug on any heart strings, hence why i framed my argument without emotive language; it appears matter of fact to me, if you can suggest some appropriate adjustments then i may make them. But why would you rather skip over the discussion of such things? Perhaps that shows your own desire to skip over some issues.
Don't forget that if i am pro-choice, then i will frame an argument for pro-choice. It is not my responsibility to do otherwise.
If i wanted to change marijuana laws (and i do), then i need to provide a convincing argument first (which i can). Then i have to make sure others are listening and focus my energies on those who are not. This seems logical and sensible to me. Do you disagree? If so, how else do you suggest we go about changing established norms? Problems must be identified before they are adressed, no?


My problem is you still have the same frightened attitude as any of the other combatants on either side. The 'heroic' girl in this video is the same as well.

Why is everyone so scared by consideration of the real question, when does life begin?

All of your pro-life arguments apply to the exact moment before the child leaves the womb. Should anybody having a c-section get to choose if the doctor hands them the baby or slits it's throat and tosses it aside? After all, it hadn't been born yet so it's a matter of choice.

The question of when life begins is paramount, and both sides are uncomfortable with it. You haven't shown my you are in any way unique, you've failed in both posts to even touch the notion of when a human life should be granted full rights. One might assume the being pro-life, you feel life begins at birth, but that of course introduces the ugliness mentioned above.

>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^dannym3141:
>> ^bcglorf:
The tragedy is neither side wants to discuss the underlying problem of reaching an agreement on when life begins, and thus is granted full human rights.
People have trouble accepting conception as that point.
People have trouble accepting birth as that point.
What's worse, is people refuse to discuss that point as it makes them uncomfortable.

I think one side rejects discussion more than the other - no prizes for guessing which one. And if it's true that abortion IS murder, we're gonna have to build a few hundred jails for all the millions of women that are gonna be imprisoned for murder.
And the doctors, and anyone else involved. Maybe fathers too?
How about rape pregnancies? Should we force the mother to look after it? Maybe dump it in an orphanage? If god forbid someone got pregnant in this way, and the woman got rid of it, the woman could end up with a smaller sentence than the scumbag who raped her.
There are a fucking billion nuances that need sorting out, but they just want to shout each other down, or stand outside abortion clinics yelling at innocent people in the street.
The pro life community in general has its head up its own arse - it is currently legal; to change the law you must put forward a convincing, logical argument. By taking the approach they're taking, they're never gonna get anywhere. Not that i want them to.

I said nothing about sides, but I dare say neither side has much claim to focusing on presenting a convincing, logical argument. People are either murderers or haters of women and lovers of rapists. Both sides are equally negligent and stubborn in their refusal to recognize or even acknowledge the real underlying question.
You should note you even just did it yourself leaping right over any discussion of when life begins and went straight after people's heart strings over jailing millions of women and even jailing of rape victims.
Stop and have the logical discussion of when a fetus is a human and should be granted full human rights.


No, i didn't skip over anything - you can hardly expect me to discuss all aspects of abortion in a few paragraphs. I stated some of the issues that would need to be handled if the law is changed, i stated my opinion, and criticised the approach of pro-lifers. I think that is a logical thing to do - the law is the law and if they want to change it, it is they who need the convincing argument. That isn't because i'm pro-choice, that's just a fact of life.

I didn't intend tug on any heart strings, hence why i framed my argument without emotive language; it appears matter of fact to me, if you can suggest some appropriate adjustments then i may make them. But why would you rather skip over the discussion of such things? Perhaps that shows your own desire to skip over some issues.

Don't forget that if i am pro-choice, then i will frame an argument for pro-choice. It is not my responsibility to do otherwise.

If i wanted to change marijuana laws (and i do), then i need to provide a convincing argument first (which i can). Then i have to make sure others are listening and focus my energies on those who are not. This seems logical and sensible to me. Do you disagree? If so, how else do you suggest we go about changing established norms? Problems must be identified before they are adressed, no?

>> ^dannym3141:

>> ^bcglorf:
The tragedy is neither side wants to discuss the underlying problem of reaching an agreement on when life begins, and thus is granted full human rights.
People have trouble accepting conception as that point.
People have trouble accepting birth as that point.
What's worse, is people refuse to discuss that point as it makes them uncomfortable.

I think one side rejects discussion more than the other - no prizes for guessing which one. And if it's true that abortion IS murder, we're gonna have to build a few hundred jails for all the millions of women that are gonna be imprisoned for murder.
And the doctors, and anyone else involved. Maybe fathers too?
How about rape pregnancies? Should we force the mother to look after it? Maybe dump it in an orphanage? If god forbid someone got pregnant in this way, and the woman got rid of it, the woman could end up with a smaller sentence than the scumbag who raped her.
There are a fucking billion nuances that need sorting out, but they just want to shout each other down, or stand outside abortion clinics yelling at innocent people in the street.
The pro life community in general has its head up its own arse - it is currently legal; to change the law you must put forward a convincing, logical argument. By taking the approach they're taking, they're never gonna get anywhere. Not that i want them to.


I said nothing about sides, but I dare say neither side has much claim to focusing on presenting a convincing, logical argument. People are either murderers or haters of women and lovers of rapists. Both sides are equally negligent and stubborn in their refusal to recognize or even acknowledge the real underlying question.

You should note you even just did it yourself leaping right over any discussion of when life begins and went straight after people's heart strings over jailing millions of women and even jailing of rape victims.

Stop and have the logical discussion of when a fetus is a human and should be granted full human rights.

>> ^bcglorf:

The tragedy is neither side wants to discuss the underlying problem of reaching an agreement on when life begins, and thus is granted full human rights.
People have trouble accepting conception as that point.
People have trouble accepting birth as that point.
What's worse, is people refuse to discuss that point as it makes them uncomfortable.


I think one side rejects discussion more than the other - no prizes for guessing which one. And if it's true that abortion IS murder, we're gonna have to build a few hundred jails for all the millions of women that are gonna be imprisoned for murder.

And the doctors, and anyone else involved. Maybe fathers too?

How about rape pregnancies? Should we force the mother to look after it? Maybe dump it in an orphanage? If god forbid someone got pregnant in this way, and the woman got rid of it, the woman could end up with a smaller sentence than the scumbag who raped her.

There are a fucking billion nuances that need sorting out, but they just want to shout each other down, or stand outside abortion clinics yelling at innocent people in the street.

The pro life community in general has its head up its own arse - it is currently legal; to change the law you must put forward a convincing, logical argument. By taking the approach they're taking, they're never gonna get anywhere. Not that i want them to.

yes, yes, bat shit insanity and conjecture will end any argument on the internet. you win, oh righteous one. i'm the miserable, terrified twat. i'll shake in fear with all my womanly sin until the all might god smites me proper on judgement day. amen. >> ^shinyblurry:

This thread is just full of discretion and common sense. <rolls eyes> Listen, it's clear that you're filled with anger at God and bitterness about your life. It is fairly emenating from you. Since you're spoiling for a fight with me I'll just lay it out for you. The reason bad things happen is because this is a fallen world. We're all sinners and we all deserve hell and nothing more. You seem to think you're owed something because bad things happened to you, but God isn't your debtor. He is your judge. He is merciful towards you because He desires your repentance, but if you refuse to repent of your sins and submit to His authority then you're going to end up in hell. Your self-righteousness doesn't justify you before a Holy God, it condemns you.
>> ^peggedbea:
oh, i didn't imply that the goal of the video wasn't to garner the creator attention. i implied that the goal of the video wasn't for SEXUAL attention.
once again, you storm into a topic as a moral crusader and come out the other end as an ignorant, judgmental twat.
maybe you can't look at a boob without getting an inappropriate boner, but don't assume the rest of us can't use discretion and common sense like adults.
oh and @ForgedReality you're being such a raging douchebag, it just inspired me to text my boyfriend and thank him for not being a fucking douchebag. i'm sorry for the woman who has to have sex with your judgmental, immature, passive aggressive, socially stunted ass. in my head i just decided you were 16 so that we can at least all have hope that one day you will grow out of it. >> ^shinyblurry:
Yes, showing off your breasts in public isn't a cheap ploy for attention. That makes sense.
>> ^peggedbea:
i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.
just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:
So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?
>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

This thread is just full of discretion and common sense. <rolls eyes> Listen, it's clear that you're filled with anger at God and bitterness about your life. It is fairly emenating from you. Since you're spoiling for a fight with me I'll just lay it out for you. The reason bad things happen is because this is a fallen world. We're all sinners and we all deserve hell and nothing more. You seem to think you're owed something because bad things happened to you, but God isn't your debtor. He is your judge. He is merciful towards you because He desires your repentance, but if you refuse to repent of your sins and submit to His authority then you're going to end up in hell. Your self-righteousness doesn't justify you before a Holy God, it condemns you.

>> ^peggedbea:
oh, i didn't imply that the goal of the video wasn't to garner the creator attention. i implied that the goal of the video wasn't for SEXUAL attention.
once again, you storm into a topic as a moral crusader and come out the other end as an ignorant, judgmental twat.
maybe you can't look at a boob without getting an inappropriate boner, but don't assume the rest of us can't use discretion and common sense like adults.
oh and @ForgedReality you're being such a raging douchebag, it just inspired me to text my boyfriend and thank him for not being a fucking douchebag. i'm sorry for the woman who has to have sex with your judgmental, immature, passive aggressive, socially stunted ass. in my head i just decided you were 16 so that we can at least all have hope that one day you will grow out of it. >> ^shinyblurry:
Yes, showing off your breasts in public isn't a cheap ploy for attention. That makes sense.
>> ^peggedbea:
i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.
just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:
So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?
>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

oh, i didn't imply that the goal of the video wasn't to garner the creator attention. i implied that the goal of the video wasn't for SEXUAL attention.

once again, you storm into a topic as a moral crusader and come out the other end as an ignorant, judgmental twat.

maybe you can't look at a boob without getting an inappropriate boner, but don't assume the rest of us can't use discretion and common sense like adults.

oh and @ForgedReality you're being such a raging douchebag, it just inspired me to text my boyfriend and thank him for not being a fucking douchebag. i'm sorry for the woman who has to have sex with your judgmental, immature, passive aggressive, socially stunted ass. in my head i just decided you were 16 so that we can at least all have hope that one day you will grow out of it. >> ^shinyblurry:

Yes, showing off your breasts in public isn't a cheap ploy for attention. That makes sense.
>> ^peggedbea:
i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.
just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:
So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?
>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

Hey, man, if you make that video, I'll submit it for ya. I'm sure someone else has a *promote or two.

>> ^ForgedReality:

>> ^shinyblurry:
Yes, showing off your breasts in public isn't a cheap ploy for attention. That makes sense.
>> ^peggedbea:
i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.
just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:
So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?
>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.





I'm going to whip my dick out and flop it on the table as a joke. HA HA HILARIOUS now I'm in handcuffs and I can't even put my dick away.
When the cops question me as to why I did it, I'm going to tell them it's just something silly I can do, and it wasn't for attention at all.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Yes, showing off your breasts in public isn't a cheap ploy for attention. That makes sense.
>> ^peggedbea:
i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.
just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:
So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?
>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.





I'm going to whip my dick out and flop it on the table as a joke. HA HA HILARIOUS now I'm in handcuffs and I can't even put my dick away.

When the cops question me as to why I did it, I'm going to tell them it's just something silly I can do, and it wasn't for attention at all.

Yes, showing off your breasts in public isn't a cheap ploy for attention. That makes sense.

>> ^peggedbea:
i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.
just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:
So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?
>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

i'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. it was a funny, silly, stupid thing she can do with her enormous boob. i, for one, am impressed. my stupid average size boobs cant do tricks like that.

just because there are boobs in a video, doesn't mean they're there to impress men. that isn't our main function, desire, aspiration. once again, get over your self. >> ^shinyblurry:

So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?

>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

So you approve of this? Do you feel that women should degrade themselves to get the approval of men?


>> ^peggedbea:
and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:
@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

and as for you, give it a rest. go stand out the strip club and save souls there. or foam at the mouth screaming at whores at the abortion clinic if your so concerned with womankind and our dainty little souls. >> ^shinyblurry:

@UsesProzac Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

There are always exceptions to every rule. Consequentialism is how everyone lives and functions. Everyone. Even someone as categorical as Ayn Rand, even the most staunch religionist is also a consequentialist. No one is purely categorical - they don't exist.

Abortion is a terrible thing, no reasonable people disagree with that. A fetus is far from a human. It's not conscious, it does not (depending on size) have any nervous system whatsoever. If the situation calls for it, people should be allowed to have abortions safely and cleanly. Ideally, the baby would have been stopped before conception with a condom or other contraceptive, but contraceptives are not foolproof, and some times the woman has no choice (rape, daterape, Elizabeth Hurley, etc).

The solution to abortions is not to ban them, but to educate people such that they are only used as a very last solution. If religious people just spent their efforts on education about contraceptives instead of trying to destroy abortions clinics and preaching about abstinence, the number of abortions would fall drastically.

It's interesting that the areas with the most religious people, is also the ones with the most abortions - corrolation yes, causation, perhaps?