@GeeSussFreeK not to bleed one conversation into another, but SDGundamX's post above is a great example of consequentialist reasoning for why abortion should be kept safe and legal.

It's also consequentialist reasoning for why he thinks you need a damn good reason to ever abort a child in any circumstance. It's also consequentialist reasoning that leads him to say that if your goal is truly to minimize abortion, you should be in favor of better sex education and access to birth control for teens, not trying to squeeze abortion clinics out of existence.

It might go without saying, but I agree with every word he wrote too.

So it's now a "right" to reward irresponsibility. Why isn't there a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic on campus?

@Porksandwich those all sound like good ideas. I especially like the idea of trying to make rehabilitation more of a core function of our justice system. It seems like once someone's been found guilty, society at large just writes them off as if they're no longer fully human.

The whole concept of justice and crime and punishment is just rife with deep philosophical questions.

Take A Clockwork Orange for example. What's the just way to deal with someone like Alex? Lock him up? Execute him? Brainwash him so he's rendered physiologically incapable of giving in to his dark impulses? But he's a special case, and clearly mentally ill. A mental hospital is almost certainly the right place for him.

How about someone like Scott Roeder, who murdered Dr. George Tiller for running an abortion clinic? He's probably not clinically insane, he's just acting in what he considers a highly moral fashion -- he's preventing the extermination of hundreds, if not thousands of innocent lives, by taking the life of one man, knowing that his life, and possibly even his immortal soul is forfeit in doing so. I say that's mental illness too, but there's more than a few people out there who think he's a hero and a martyr. Would it be serving justice if we could "cure" him of his convictions? I'm not entirely comfortable with that, but I don't see how he's safe to release back into society with his beliefs intact.

How about Lloyd Blankfein, or Tony Hayward? They gambled the lives and livelihoods of millions of people, knowing that it was a "heads I win", "tails they lose" situation. But that's their entire job function -- to find a way to exploit economic opportunities to make money, wherever they find them. Every pressure on them inside the company and within the culture they live in was for them to do the immoral, profitable thing. In this case, I think these guys' real crime is that they gave in to peer pressure, which is not exactly a tremendous moral failing. Shouldn't we blame those who pressured them? Maybe the entire social and economic structure that's designed to encourage this kind of behavior in the first place? What court can rule on that?

Instead, on VS, the only debate people seem to want to have is "are cops evil or not?"

Since when is life so black and white?

First of all: when did this happen? by "hassling supporters of the military" do you mean anti-war protests? I've yet to see any antiwar protesters attacking military families or soldiers

It happened(s) frequently. Anti-war types routinely hassle military personnel, and even their families. During the Vietnam war it was a cottage industry. For shame. While free speech may allow it - such speech should be self-censored by common sense, decency, and self-respect.

Secondly: attacking self-righteous bigots who think they can decide who other adult people can love, sleep with or form lasting relationships with, and who, with their poison and bigotry turns young peoples lives into a nightmare of shame, bullying and self-loathing, is a fight to protect the vulnerable, not to harm them.

Those who seek to justify "attacking" others are in the fetters of agenda-driven bias. This comes from allowing their belief in a 'cause' to lead them into dehumanizing others to the point where they become comfortable with abuse. I see no difference between the woman in this video some other jerk who harasses people for a pet cause.

If you believe in something then you advance the cause with persuasion, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned. If you find yourself moved to insults, misrepresentation, harassment, property damage, or other abuse then you have entered the dark side no matter how just you think your cause may be. The sad truth is that there are pro-gay types who behave just like the woman in this video towards perfectly normal folks who just happen to support traditional marriage. They may come from a different orchestra, but its the same music.

screaming at people on their way into an abortion clinic, that not just low, its disgusting, immature, inhuman and downright evil

I believe I said that. I merely commented that it is somewhat curious that the outrage only manifests itself when the behavior is coming from the perspective of a specific ideology. If such outrage was truly applied from a position of justice then it would not confine itself to merely one 'aisle' so to speak. It was more a commentary on the stilted nature of "VideoSift" than anything else.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
There is not so much outrage when anti-war protesters hassle the supporters of the military, or when pro-gay groups disrupt the services of groups that support traditional marriage. I could go on, but the tears come off as pretty crocodile when they are so selectively shed.


First of all: when did this happen? by "hassling supporters of the military" do you mean anti-war protests? I've yet to see any antiwar protesters attacking military families or soldiers, they are usually (and by that I mean nearly always) protesting the policies that leads to war etc. and sure, you can disagree, but thats not really being hassled, is it?

Secondly: attacking self-righteous bigots who think they can decide who other adult people can love, sleep with or form lasting relationships with, and who, with their poison and bigotry turns young peoples lives into a nightmare of shame, bullying and self-loathing, is a fight to protect the vulnerable, not to harm them.

And of course you have the right to disagree, and even take offense, but dont compare "traditional marriage supporters" to people who are about to have an abortion, because its not the same fucking thing.

We can disagree on issues, and sure, there are bad apples who protest in bad manners on either side, but screaming at people on their way into an abortion clinic, that not just fucking low, its disgusting, immature, inhuman and downright evil.

>> ^Shepppard:

Serious upvote.
My cousin and his wife recently suffered a miscarriage of their first child, everything about it was horrible.
To start things off, she gets migranes, seriously bad ones. And the medication she was taking needed to stop if she wanted to have a child, so, she did.
After a few months (remember, months, and she suffered severe migranes) they finally were able to conceive, and they were going to announce it at my cousins wedding. (she would have been about 5 months pregnant at that point, so about 8 months of no medication, and morning sickness, etc.)
The day of one of my cousins wedding, none of that family (aunt, uncle, coussin & wife) showed up. Nobody knew why (We didn't know they were trying for a baby at this point) but around noon, someone finally got word of what was up.
Apparently Beth had suffered a miscarriage, for a few days she had noticed the baby wasn't kicking, and found out the day before the wedding that, sure enough, the baby was lost.
She had to wait 3 days before she could get to an abortion clinic to have it removed, or she would've had to wait longer in a hospital.
And to think of all the pain and suffering she had already been through, coupled with the trauma of losing her first child, and having to walk into one of those clinics, tears most likely streaming down her face, and having to deal with people like those two women?
My heart breaks for her. I can't honestly believe people would do that and think they're solving anything.


This is the reason why we need *promotepost or *qualitypost. (Maybe transfer a power-point for recognition, max of one per comment, etc...)

It's a sad story, but it shows that these stories are out there. I have a lot of problems with what basically is temper-tantrum rallies/protests. The only protests that should be in anger are when a right is denied by the government. Write your Senator or Congressman for the other stuff. (This would force them to think out their ideas when it's penned on paper.)

>> ^Morganth:

This is an issue that evokes major emotion regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong so when you believe in something strongly, it's going to be taken personally.
I happen to think abortion is one of the most abhorrent practices in the world. A fetus has the DNA of a human, yet is genetically distinct from the mother so by all scientific definitions this is a human.
However, how I feel about the issue (very against it) doesn't change the fact that they were yelling at a hurting person. Shouting at people going into abortion clinics doesn't educate and it doesn't bring about change. Streets are hardly forums of debate. Protests, civil disobedience, and legal action are the ways to bring change. I don't know what they were yelling, but as someone who is against abortion I have to ask "what were they hoping to accomplish?" If anything, they're hurting their cause.
I know most (if not all of you) disagree with me on the issue of abortion. But I certainly don't support this kind of "protest."


I think the thing to remember is that nobody is "pro abortion." That's kind of the point the guy was making. It is almost without fail the worst day of her life.

That said, I think this is one area where Government should not be restricting choice. This particular choice is too important in too many situations. Further, it is definitely not a service you want to force onto the black market. As the slogan goes, "safe and rare." While I tend to agree with you, and would be utterly distraught if my own child were ever electively aborted, I feel the morality of the issue is questionable enough that it should be left to the judgement of those most intimately involved (I wish there were some elegant way to allow responsible fathers some say, but that would be tricky legislation to write). In any event, "pro lifers" have never demonstrated effectively.

>> ^Morganth:

A fetus has the DNA of a human, yet is genetically distinct from the mother so by all scientific definitions this is a human.
No, sorry, not by "all scientific definitions". In fact there are many definitions, many of which are debatable within science and in wider society, of when an embryo can be considered 'alive'. Regardless of whether or not it's right or wrong to abort an embryo and/or at what point in the pregnancy and/or what medical or personal reasons there may be for doing so, you're flat wrong if you think there's a scientific consensus on this definition. If I were you I'd hold back from tossing out sciencey-sounding weasel words like "by all scientific definitions" to support your ideological position, because not all scientific definitions support you. Some do. Some don't.

I also have to pick out that while you say quite rightly that "shouting at people going into abortion clinics doesn't educate and it doesn't bring about change", you go on to say that "protests" are among the ways to do it. The women in the video are protesting. I don't see the difference between what you say not to do and what you subsequently advocate.

This is an issue that evokes major emotion regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong so when you believe in something strongly, it's going to be taken personally.

I happen to think abortion is one of the most abhorrent practices in the world. A fetus has the DNA of a human, yet is genetically distinct from the mother so by all scientific definitions this is a human.

However, how I feel about the issue (very against it) doesn't change the fact that they were yelling at a hurting person. Shouting at people going into abortion clinics doesn't educate and it doesn't bring about change. Streets are hardly forums of debate. Protests, civil disobedience, and legal action are the ways to bring change. I don't know what they were yelling, but as someone who is against abortion I have to ask "what were they hoping to accomplish?" If anything, they're hurting their cause.

I know most (if not all of you) disagree with me on the issue of abortion. But I certainly don't support this kind of "protest."

Serious upvote.

My cousin and his wife recently suffered a miscarriage of their first child, everything about it was horrible.

To start things off, she gets migranes, seriously bad ones. And the medication she was taking needed to stop if she wanted to have a child, so, she did.

After a few months (remember, months, and she suffered severe migranes) they finally were able to conceive, and they were going to announce it at my cousins wedding. (she would have been about 5 months pregnant at that point, so about 8 months of no medication, and morning sickness, etc.)

The day of one of my cousins wedding, none of that family (aunt, uncle, coussin & wife) showed up. Nobody knew why (We didn't know they were trying for a baby at this point) but around noon, someone finally got word of what was up.

Apparently Beth had suffered a miscarriage, for a few days she had noticed the baby wasn't kicking, and found out the day before the wedding that, sure enough, the baby was lost.

She had to wait 3 days before she could get to an abortion clinic to have it removed, or she would've had to wait longer in a hospital.

And to think of all the pain and suffering she had already been through, coupled with the trauma of losing her first child, and having to walk into one of those clinics, tears most likely streaming down her face, and having to deal with people like those two women?

My heart breaks for her. I can't honestly believe people would do that and think they're solving anything.

Wow! The title of this video incorporates two candidate-themes for my Senior Prom in high school: "Drunken Dildo Fight" and "Anal Rape." Amazing! It's like you've reached into my head and pulled out a fistful of wonderful!

Incidentally, both of the themes mentioned above were beat out by "Teen Abortion Clinic: We Bring Out the Kid in Ya!" It was a magical night!

Not all muslims are islamists, but Islam is a political religion of conquer, and as constitutionally "right" as this CC is, I can understand the underlying unease of many: it absolutely will be seen as another shining foothold of Islam in Satan's western underbelly.
It speaks miles that the american muslim community, most probably 99.9% progressive and moderate, have not spoken up against planning such an ostentatious tattoo right next to the yet-unhealed scar the doctrine it praises caused.



On a side note, gay stripper clubs should be obligatorily adjacent to every house of (monotheistic) worship, as well as family planning centers and abortion clinics.

You're judging the entire community by the actions of a few.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/other.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions
http://www.muslim.org/islam/tolerance.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/beliefs.htm

There are fundamentalist Christians that think its just fine to plant bombs at abortion clinics. Do we judge the entire faith by the actions of these extremists?

OK, I don't want to get involved in a religious debate, but I have to make a comment.

First of all, this "street corner preacher" needs to learn that while we Christians must be on the offensive (as opposed to being on the defensive) in order to convince non-believers of the truth, me must do so without being offensive. Jesus did not appeal to His followers by offending them; the only ones he deliberately offended were the so-called religious leaders of the day, such as the pharisees. Christ did not call us to get into a debate with believers of other religions, but to feed his sheep.

It is really too bad the young lady reacted so violently. Muslims claim their religion is one of peace and yet there are so many examples to indicate the opposite is true. I know, there are also examples of Christians acting violently (the crusades, witch hunts, the Spanish inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, etc), so don't think I am stating, "we are better than them" or anything like that. My point is simply this: if you claim to be a peaceful person serving a peaceful religion, prove it by your actions.

Lastly, a word on the young lady's questions and the preacher's inappropriate and incorrect answers. Yes, she was ignorant of Christianity, and perhaps even her own religion, but that is why she was asking the questions. Unfortunately, she was asking the intellectual questions that we as human beings cannot answer. God is not so small that we can put Him in a box and explain Him. There is no adequate definition of the Holy Trinity that any man can give. Perhaps Adam understood it, as he likely had full use of his brain before he sinned, but we as sinners can never hope to fully understand God. Nor can we hope to understand the concept of Jesus being God, coming to earth, living and dying as a man, and then ascending to heaven to be with God. Contrary to the young lady's statement, Jesus did not become God, he has always been God (John 1:1) So how can Jesus be God when he was a man, and vice versa. No man can say, at least not with an intellectual "win the debate" kind of answer. That is why Christianity is a religion of faith, faith that the Bible is true and that Christ is The Truth. More than that, however, Christianity is about having a relationship with God, living in God and having God living in us. Unfortunately there are too many believers that have not yet learned this, such as this street-corner preacher and his cohorts. In fact, I am only beginning to grasp it myself as I daily grow closer to God.

In Christ...

What are you on about??? I think you've misheard what he said in the video,

reading your transcript i must have,or conflated two dissparate points into one.
thank you.

i understand that mr harris was using islam as an example,i furthered it by supplying my own.
i shall attempt to clarify my point:
i have no problem with mr harris's premise,in fact i tend to agree with him.
here is my crux..if you will.
over-generalizations.
in my opinion his premise would have had FAR more veracity if he didnt indulge in such blanket generalizations.so while i would not wish for examples from each religion i would like his examples to be more precise.
example:what mr harris has issue with,as do i for that matter,is "fundamentalism" and the misuse of it's supposed authority.
the palestinian suicide bomber does not run into an isreali cafe ad kill dozens of people because the qur'an tells him to.he does this out of desperation against oppression of a military occupier and as a last resort.it is the RELIGION and the leaders of that religion that use dogma and doctrine to make such an act acceptible,even praiseworthy.
another example:
a devout christian who is pro-life,agressively anti-abortion,assasinates the abortion clinics doctor.this to any sane person is hypocrisy absolute,but this mans religious leaders have twisted scripture and doctrine to somehow make murder ok,all to serve an agenda.
the REAL fight is with fundamentalism,not religion.
the real fight is with those who,for their own advancement,would pervert another human being by amplifying their faith into a murderous fervor.
which mr harris speaks about,and i agree.
the only point i was making is lets point the finger at the real culprits,not those who follow peacefully in faith and in love.to make such blanket statements discounts rich histories,contributions to cultures and the humanities.a total population which counts in the millions.and in the case of islam...billions.

this was the only point i was attempting to make.i stated i agreed with mr harris,just not with his execution.i am not an atheist but neither am i a fundamentalist.i actually dont follow any religion at all..i just teach it.
i do hope i did a better job in conveying my point.
till next time...peace.