Well, it's short. I'll give you that.

not too bad.
didnt care for the insert of original sin.it was irrelevant.

*promote

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Saturday, August 20th, 2011 9:47am PDT - promote requested by enoch.

Thanks for the promote. In regards to original sin, it is relevent because it explains that the world was formally perfect until we chose the path away from perfection.

For the record, most non theists/ atheists already know, that everyone shall be respected for his own choice of believe or non believe*. So I find it a good idea to try to publish that video in communities which are more "religious" so to say, because as I noticed religious people are far more intolerant when it comes to other believes.

* unless they invade your personal freedom.

omnipotent means no limits in power...
by saying God is limited to LOGICAL possibilities, and can not do something LOGICALLY impossible is a LIMITATION

ALL POWERFUL means no LIMITATIONS

OMNIPOTENCE means yes, you could create a square circle and a circular square

throwing "logical" into this is APOLOGETIC at best, especially since its used to counter 1 thing, "could God create a rock big enough that even he couldn't lift it"

and the rest, again all APOLOGETIC and failed reasoning...

why would an omnipotent/omniscient (that means KNOWS everything, that includes everything past, present and future) care if people followed him? why could he not create everything, but NOT let it exist without any further intervention?

sounds like pride, which is a pretty petty emotion to dominate an all powerful all knowing beings decision making process

and if the best answer that can be given for that is "He works in mysterious ways", well then nothing has been "proven" has it?

nice animations though, content is trash

@packo, what is sad is that folks will watch this and not understand the illogical sand upon which the whole video sits. It is effective -- look at the votes it is garnering.

What bothers me so much is the whole idea of punishing Adam and Eve for gaining knowledge. For punishing them for "disobeying" God. It is the spine that runs through so much of the Christian religion -- shut up and do what the person in charge says.

Having said that, I recognize that many people crave the discipline and structure of an outside agency to help shape their lives.

Nothing is perfect. Religion does much good and helps folks. Religion is also responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity. Both can be true, the statements are not mutually exclusive.

And therein lies true Freedom -- the choice to walk away from an authoritarian presence and create your own inner moral compass through free will, not because you are threatened with burning in hell for eternity.

@packo

Hold on there, lil fella. Pride isn't merely an emotion. It's a sin. GASP!

Hey God, thanks for making us free and all that, but if it's this freedom that's causing widespread pain and suffering, let's do something else instead. I assert the perception of freedom is as good as actual freedom to us humans, so maybe give us that, and spare us the suffering. Cool? Thanks.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

This garbage was debunked 2300 years ago.

>> ^packo:
omnipotent means no limits in power...
by saying God is limited to LOGICAL possibilities, and can not do something LOGICALLY impossible is a LIMITATION
ALL POWERFUL means no LIMITATIONS
OMNIPOTENCE means yes, you could create a square circle and a circular square
throwing "logical" into this is APOLOGETIC at best, especially since its used to counter 1 thing, "could God create a rock big enough that even he couldn't lift it"
and the rest, again all APOLOGETIC and failed reasoning...
why would an omnipotent/omniscient (that means KNOWS everything, that includes everything past, present and future) care if people followed him? why could he not create everything, but NOT let it exist without any further intervention?
sounds like pride, which is a pretty petty emotion to dominate an all powerful all knowing beings decision making process
and if the best answer that can be given for that is "He works in mysterious ways", well then nothing has been "proven" has it?
nice animations though, content is trash


Having all power means being able to do everything which is *possible*. What you are saying is that there is nothing which is impossible, which is untrue. I can easily think of many things which are impossible for God. For instance, it would be impossible for God to remember a time He wasn't omnipotent. Does this mean He isn't omnipotent? No it doesn't.

In regards to Omniscience, it means to know everything that can be known. Could God create a scenerio in which absolute foreknowledge wasn't possible? Absolutely. If He couldn't He wouldn't be omnipotent. Having limited foreknowledge doesn't violate Omniscience, since He still knows everything that can be known.

Your scenerio is a false dichotomy. You assume pride is the only reason God created people to know Him, or that it would be better for beings to be left alone. In no discernable way could it better for beings not to know who their Creator is. What you are advocating is ignorance as being superior to knowledge, which I am sure is not something you could support.

Indeed. God is logically impossible, therefore according to this video, God cannot do God. No wonder he hates masturbation!
>> ^Skeeve:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
This garbage was debunked 2300 years ago.

Adam and Eve weren't punished for "gaining knowledge", they were punished for breaking the law. Do you feel people should be able to do what they want without consequence? That's what you call anarchy. Most atheists I know aren't anarchists and support a system of justice which requires people to conform to certain behaviors or face punishment. This is okay for your secular authority but not the ultimate authority?

If you want to talk about moral compasses, without an objective morality you don't have one. Subjective morality is determined by concensus and people can agree to do very wicked things. The nazis all agreed that the holocaust was right. You know in your heart something like the holocaust is evil, and absolutely wrong, but in your subjective morality it is not absolutely wrong. You cannot explain why the holocaust is absolutely wrong with subjective morality. Under a subjective system, the holocaust can become justifiable. It's only wrong if it is wrong for all people in all places at all times.



>> ^bareboards2:
@packo, what is sad is that folks will watch this and not understand the illogical sand upon which the whole video sits. It is effective -- look at the votes it is garnering.
What bothers me so much is the whole idea of punishing Adam and Eve for gaining knowledge. For punishing them for "disobeying" God. It is the spine that runs through so much of the Christian religion -- shut up and do what the person in charge says.
Having said that, I recognize that many people crave the discipline and structure of an outside agency to help shape their lives.
Nothing is perfect. Religion does much good and helps folks. Religion is also responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity. Both can be true, the statements are not mutually exclusive.
And therein lies true Freedom -- the choice to walk away from an authoritarian presence and create your own inner moral compass through free will, not because you are threatened with burning in hell for eternity.

Debunked? You're not a very good philosopher if you don't think there are any counter-arguments to this claim. First, the assumption here is that God and evil are mutually incompatible, or that God couldn't use evil to achieve His goals. If the entire purpose of your existence is to know God, and evil facilitates that, then God is capable of using it for beneficial purposes. Second, it presupposes that evil actually exists. So, if there is evil there also must be good, and there must be a moral law differentiating between the two, which leads to a lawgiver.

>> ^Skeeve:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
This garbage was debunked 2300 years ago.

If I allow someone to burn your house down, only so that I can run in and save you when it is on fire so that you like me, am I a good person? You just admitted that your god does the same thing - allows evil to exist so humans will like him - so how can he be good? Why would anyone worship such a horrible creature?

As for the argument from morality that you have provided, if you provide me with something that is objectively evil, I will provide you with the bible verse in which your evil-ass god commanded someone to do it.>> ^shinyblurry:

Debunked? You're not a very good philosopher if you don't think there are any counter-arguments to this claim. First, the assumption here is that God and evil are mutually incompatible, or that God couldn't use evil to achieve His goals. If the entire purpose of your existence is to know God, and evil facilitates that, then God is capable of using it for beneficial purposes. Second, it presupposes that evil actually exists. So, if there is evil there also must be good, and there must be a moral law differentiating between the two, which leads to a lawgiver.
>> ^Skeeve:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
This garbage was debunked 2300 years ago.

original sin is a fabrication of the church to establish control and dominance but has never really been able to prove this position.though there are many fundamentalists who will defend this position, it still will not hold water when put under proper scrutiny.
for many evangelicals to refute the original sin story is to also refute jesus.
this is untrue,but to attempt to explain that to someone who views the bible as the literal word of god would be an exercise in futility.
they will defend the position of original sin staunchly and vigorously.
to do otherwise would be to reject jesus in their mind.

most theologians agree that original sin put forth by the church is a fallacious argument.
my position is that the book of genesis is the metaphorical representation of kabballah and has nothing to be understood in literal terms but rather an abstract of creation,the godhead and correlation between this physical universe with the "nether".

"no choice = no freedom" but how free are you when someone puts a gun to your your head and demands your wallet? Yes you are choosing to keep your life over your wallet but I'd hardly categorize that as "freedom".

What a PILE OF SHIT.

Limited to logical WTF ? CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT A FUCKING MIRACLE IS MEANT TO BE ?

Such bullshit hokus pokus, THERE IS NO GOD YOU MADE HIM THE FUCK UP.

What I admitted to is that God allows you to have matches, and warns you that you could burn your house down, but if you ignore the warning He will still save your life..and you probably won't play with matches again in the future. If you listened to God you never would have burned your house down in the first place. God created a world in which evil did not exist; that He allowed us to screw up and bring it into the world means we have the freedom to choose. To take that away means we have no choice. What you are advocating is that God doesn't allow you to have matches, or if He does, to continually prevent you from abusing them. That isn't freedom.

As far as God breaking His own commandments, He would really only be subject to two of them, since the rest couldn't apply to Him. Lying, and murder. He never done either. He has never lied. He has killed, but it was never murder. Murder is to kill unlawfully. Under the law the penalty for sin is death. So if you want to point to places in the bible God took life, that was entirely lawful. Over 2 million people are born and die every day..giving and taking life is something God does all the time. That He is patient with us even though we are sinners shows His mercy. That He sent His Son to take our place so we could be forgiven and obtain eternal life shows His love.

>> ^Skeeve:
If I allow someone to burn your house down, only so that I can run in and save you when it is on fire so that you like me, am I a good person? You just admitted that your god does the same thing - allows evil to exist so humans will like him - so how can he be good? Why would anyone worship such a horrible creature?
As for the argument from morality that you have provided, if you provide me with something that is objectively evil, I will provide you with the bible verse in which your evil-ass god commanded someone to do it.>> ^shinyblurry:
Debunked? You're not a very good philosopher if you don't think there are any counter-arguments to this claim. First, the assumption here is that God and evil are mutually incompatible, or that God couldn't use evil to achieve His goals. If the entire purpose of your existence is to know God, and evil facilitates that, then God is capable of using it for beneficial purposes. Second, it presupposes that evil actually exists. So, if there is evil there also must be good, and there must be a moral law differentiating between the two, which leads to a lawgiver.
>> ^Skeeve:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
This garbage was debunked 2300 years ago.

You said god allows evil to exist so people will "know" him. If he can stop evil, but does not do so, he is not a good being.

And your morality response is an absolute cop out. As far as we know, Hitler never murdered anyone. But because he ordered the deaths of millions we consider him evil. Your god ordered the deaths of an entire people (1 Sam. 15:2-3), the theft of property (Numbers 31:7-18), the abduction and rape of virgins (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) and the slavery of anyone not born an Israelite (Leviticus 25:44-46) and yet you consider him good? God specifically mentions the people of Samaria and that "their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open" (Hosea 13:16). How fucked up do you have to be to think this is a benevolent god?
>> ^shinyblurry:

What I admitted to is that God allows you to have matches, and warns you that you could burn your house down, but if you ignore the warning He will still save your life..and you probably won't play with matches again in the future. If you listened to God you never would have burned your house down in the first place. God created a world in which evil did not exist; that He allowed us to screw up and bring it into the world means we have the freedom to choose. To take that away means we have no choice. What you are advocating is that God doesn't allow you to have matches, or if He does, to continually prevent you from abusing them. That isn't freedom.
As far as God breaking His own commandments, He would really only be subject to two of them, since the rest couldn't apply to Him. Lying, and murder. He never done either. He has never lied. He has killed, but it was never murder. Murder is to kill unlawfully. Under the law the penalty for sin is death. So if you want to point to places in the bible God took life, that was entirely lawful. Over 2 million people are born and die every day..giving and taking life is something God does all the time. That He is patient with us even though we are sinners shows His mercy. That He sent His Son to take our place so we could be forgiven and obtain eternal life shows His love.
>> ^Skeeve:
If I allow someone to burn your house down, only so that I can run in and save you when it is on fire so that you like me, am I a good person? You just admitted that your god does the same thing - allows evil to exist so humans will like him - so how can he be good? Why would anyone worship such a horrible creature?
As for the argument from morality that you have provided, if you provide me with something that is objectively evil, I will provide you with the bible verse in which your evil-ass god commanded someone to do it.>> ^shinyblurry:
Debunked? You're not a very good philosopher if you don't think there are any counter-arguments to this claim. First, the assumption here is that God and evil are mutually incompatible, or that God couldn't use evil to achieve His goals. If the entire purpose of your existence is to know God, and evil facilitates that, then God is capable of using it for beneficial purposes. Second, it presupposes that evil actually exists. So, if there is evil there also must be good, and there must be a moral law differentiating between the two, which leads to a lawgiver.
>> ^Skeeve:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
This garbage was debunked 2300 years ago.

If you don't believe in original sin, you don't believe in redemptive history. You have to explain the purpose of the law and how it came to be, as well as how Jesus fufilled that law and what the purpose was of His death on the cross. It's a little bit more complicated than you're making out. You can't just cut out the OT and pretend that it still makes sense. Jesus told us in plain words why He was there and what He was doing and for what reasons. He fulfilled prophecy from the OT which predicted His coming, and He spoke about the OT as literal history. To contridict any of that makes it logically incoherent. To say Genesis is a conspiracy is grandiose claim as well. What evidence do you have this is true?

>> ^enoch:
original sin is a fabrication of the church to establish control and dominance but has never really been able to prove this position.though there are many fundamentalists who will defend this position, it still will not hold water when put under proper scrutiny.
for many evangelicals to refute the original sin story is to also refute jesus.
this is untrue,but to attempt to explain that to someone who views the bible as the literal word of god would be an exercise in futility.
they will defend the position of original sin staunchly and vigorously.
to do otherwise would be to reject jesus in their mind.
most theologians agree that original sin put forth by the church is a fallacious argument.
my position is that the book of genesis is the metaphorical representation of kabballah and has nothing to be understood in literal terms but rather an abstract of creation,the godhead and correlation between this physical universe with the "nether".

I said God allows evil to exist because He gives people the freedom to choose. It is better to have freedom and allow for evil than to have no freedom and be forced to act in a certain way. That in itself would be evil. I also said God can use that reality for beneficial purposes. Just because there is evil doesn't mean that God can't use that to fulfill His purposes. He isn't limited by evil. Evil is not a necessary part of His creation, but since humans keep choosing it, He works with it.

God destroyed the entire world in a flood that left 8 people alive. God is sovereign over His creation and we are under His law, and His judgement. Specifically, His condemnation was against wickedness:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

He is not immoral for enforcing His law on immoral people. You seem to want to argue that people should be allowed to do whatever they want, and anytime God might punish someone, He shouldn't be allowed to. God would be immoral if He just let people do whatever they want..it's because He is just that he has laws that He does enforce.

>> ^Skeeve:
You said god allows evil to exist so people will "know" him. If he can stop evil, but does not do so, he is not a good being.
And your morality response is an absolute cop out. As far as we know, Hitler never murdered anyone. But because he ordered the deaths of millions we consider him evil. Your god ordered the deaths of an entire people (1 Sam. 15:2-3), the theft of property (Numbers 31:7-18), the abduction and rape of virgins (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) and the slavery of anyone not born an Israelite (Leviticus 25:44-46) and yet you consider him good? God specifically mentions the people of Samaria and that "their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open" (Hosea 13:16). How fucked up do you have to be to think this is a benevolent god?

You're wasting your time @Skeeve, you'll get more out of arguing with a pile of sun-bleached dog poo than with the poster of this video... but you probably know that already.

@enoch I'm afraid shiny's right about original sin: Jeebs' whole skit is completely meaningless without it.

Sniping at me from the peanut gallery yet again, are you? Please come down from the balcony, Waldorf. Instead of stalking me and downvoting all of my videos, perhaps you could actually contribute something for once.

>> ^hpqp:
You're wasting your time @Skeeve, you'll get more out of arguing with a pile of sun-bleached dog poo than with the poster of this video... but you probably know that already.
@enoch I'm afraid shiny's right about original sin: Jeebs' whole skit is completely meaningless without it.

So I say you're right and this is how you thank me?

I've told @marinara and I'll tell you: I downvote videos whose content and/or form I do not like, and the religion channel is my favourite haunt (i.e. I watch all the vids posted therein). It just so happens that your posts are always in that channel, and practically always atrocious.

But if it rubs your ego the right way to think I stalk you, feel free, (but beware or my VS sweetheart @Yogi -bear might become jealous).

>> ^shinyblurry:

Sniping at me from the peanut gallery yet again, are you? Please come down from the balcony, Waldorf. Instead of stalking me and downvoting all of my videos, perhaps you could actually contribute something for once.
>> ^hpqp:
You're wasting your time @Skeeve, you'll get more out of arguing with a pile of sun-bleached dog poo than with the poster of this video... but you probably know that already.
@enoch I'm afraid shiny's right about original sin: Jeebs' whole skit is completely meaningless without it.

You're on record for saying you don't like me, anything I have to say, and you think everything I submit is garbage..you've said it again in this video..or the fact that 95 percent of videos I've submitted here have an HPQP downvote, or that you've openly stated that I should be publically ridiculed and ignored. I think that's evidence for a bias. Are you this openly hostile and unsupportive to any other member? I very much doubt it. If you want to tag along, I really don't care..I just think your behavior is extremely petty and juvenile.

>> ^hpqp:

So I say you're right and this is how you thank me?
I've told @marinara and I'll tell you: I downvote videos whose content and/or form I do not like, and the religion channel is my favourite haunt (i.e. I watch all the vids posted therein). It just so happens that your posts are always in that channel, and practically always atrocious.
But if it rubs your ego the right why to think I stalk you, feel free, (but beware or my VS sweetheart @Yogi -bear might become jealous).
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sniping at me from the peanut gallery yet again, are you? Please come down from the balcony, Waldorf. Instead of stalking me and downvoting all of my videos, perhaps you could actually contribute something for once.
>> ^hpqp:
You're wasting your time @Skeeve, you'll get more out of arguing with a pile of sun-bleached dog poo than with the poster of this video... but you probably know that already.
@enoch I'm afraid shiny's right about original sin: Jeebs' whole skit is completely meaningless without it.

>> ^shinyblurry:

You're on record for saying you don't like me, anything I have to say, and you think everything I submit is garbage..you've said it again in this video..or the fact that 95 percent of videos I've submitted here have an HPQP downvote, or that you've openly stated that I should be publically ridiculed and ignored. I think that's evidence for a bias. Are you this openly hostile and unsupportive to any other member? I very much doubt it. If you want to tag along, I really don't care..I just think your behavior is extremely petty and juvenile.
>> ^hpqp:
So I say you're right and this is how you thank me?
I've told @marinara and I'll tell you: I downvote videos whose content and/or form I do not like, and the religion channel is my favourite haunt (i.e. I watch all the vids posted therein). It just so happens that your posts are always in that channel, and practically always atrocious.
But if it rubs your ego the right why to think I stalk you, feel free, (but beware or my VS sweetheart @Yogi -bear might become jealous).
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sniping at me from the peanut gallery yet again, are you? Please come down from the balcony, Waldorf. Instead of stalking me and downvoting all of my videos, perhaps you could actually contribute something for once.
>> ^hpqp:
You're wasting your time @Skeeve, you'll get more out of arguing with a pile of sun-bleached dog poo than with the poster of this video... but you probably know that already.
@enoch I'm afraid shiny's right about original sin: Jeebs' whole skit is completely meaningless without it.





Now, now shiny-hiney: hpqp never said he didn't like you (in this thread) so please be accurate. Do not claim things that are demonstrably false. That's what got the intelligent design folks in such a pickle.

I also think your videos are garbage but I don't downvote them, usually. I don't downvote hardly anything except those horrid Hitler Downfall parody videos: I have a strong bias against them (much to the dismay of my fellow sifters) because I think they are bereft of wit and humor.

People are free to downvote anything they like, so long as they have a bronze star or higher. Now if you ever deigned to take my advice and post a baby ducks video or the odd sleepy puppy video now and again, you'll eventually get a bronze star too and gain the ability to downvote...which I encourage you to do. But you'll never get there insisting on taking the role of Reverend Shiny preaching some bronze-age, self-righteous piddle to a group as intelligent and well-educated as us.

I'll bet if you made an attempt to sift baby ducks or sleepy puppies, we could test whether hpqp was genuinely biased but the way you're going...how can we? See the dilemma?

In short: Mix it up, son.

So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?

Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well? What "law" of his did they break?>> ^shinyblurry:


God destroyed the entire world in a flood that left 8 people alive. God is sovereign over His creation and we are under His law, and His judgement. Specifically, His condemnation was against wickedness:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

It's not about the downvote, it is simply about the dishonesty in saying that he is somehow being impartial with me. What further test do I need beyond the public displays of affection? As far as what I should or shouldn't be doing here, you have plenty of people providing the duck baby videos you intelligent and well educated people are clamouring for. If I ever get a star I am sure it will be by accident, and that is just fine with me.

>> ^shuac:
>> ^shinyblurry:
You're on record for saying you don't like me, anything I have to say, and you think everything I submit is garbage..you've said it again in this video..or the fact that 95 percent of videos I've submitted here have an HPQP downvote, or that you've openly stated that I should be publically ridiculed and ignored. I think that's evidence for a bias. Are you this openly hostile and unsupportive to any other member? I very much doubt it. If you want to tag along, I really don't care..I just think your behavior is extremely petty and juvenile.
>> ^hpqp:
So I say you're right and this is how you thank me?
I've told @marinara and I'll tell you: I downvote videos whose content and/or form I do not like, and the religion channel is my favourite haunt (i.e. I watch all the vids posted therein). It just so happens that your posts are always in that channel, and practically always atrocious.
But if it rubs your ego the right why to think I stalk you, feel free, (but beware or my VS sweetheart @Yogi -bear might become jealous).
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sniping at me from the peanut gallery yet again, are you? Please come down from the balcony, Waldorf. Instead of stalking me and downvoting all of my videos, perhaps you could actually contribute something for once.
>> ^hpqp:
You're wasting your time @Skeeve, you'll get more out of arguing with a pile of sun-bleached dog poo than with the poster of this video... but you probably know that already.
@enoch I'm afraid shiny's right about original sin: Jeebs' whole skit is completely meaningless without it.




Now, now shiny-hiney: hpqp never said he didn't like you (in this thread) so please be accurate. Do not claim things that are demonstrably false. That's what got the intelligent design folks in such a pickle.
I also think your videos are garbage but I don't downvote them, usually. I don't downvote hardly anything except those horrid Hitler Downfall parody videos: I have a strong bias against them (much to the dismay of my fellow sifters) because I think they are bereft of wit and humor.
People are free to downvote anything they like, so long as they have a bronze star or higher. Now if you ever deigned to take my advice and post a baby ducks video or the odd sleepy puppy video now and again, you'll eventually get a bronze star too and gain the ability to downvote...which I encourage you to do. But you'll never get there insisting on taking the role of Reverend Shiny preaching some bronze-age, self-righteous piddle to a group as intelligent and well-educated as us. <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/teeth.gif">
I'll bet if you made an attempt to sift baby ducks or sleepy puppies, we could test whether hpqp was genuinely biased but the way you're going...how can we? See the dilemma?
In short: Mix it up, son.

Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13)

It says all flesh, which would include animals. At that point the entire world had been overtaken by wickedness, so the children of the time were destined to grow up even worse than their parents. The animals, too, had their ways corrupted by their close contact with human beings. Basically, evil had reached a point of total saturation and God hit the reset button.

edit: Sorry I missed your question earlier. It isn't about punishment and reward. It is about right and wrong. If you're a wicked person who disregards the warnings because you value your autonomy to sin over doing what is right, you deserve what you get. You won't be able to say it wasn't made clear to you what would happen, nor will you be able to deny your guilt. You have no idea how terrible even one sin is, or what its effects and implications are. Just one wicked act could spawn many others, and effect many lives. You can see this effect when people duplicate crimes and reprobate behaviors that they witness others doing. It's not a gun to your head, it is the content of your character and what is in your heart; it is the imperative to do what is right and the consequences of failing to do so. God doesn't get any pleasure from punishing the wicked. Even still while we are sinners, God is patient with us because He desires all of His children to come to repentance.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well? What "law" of his did they break?>> ^shinyblurry:
God destroyed the entire world in a flood that left 8 people alive. God is sovereign over His creation and we are under His law, and His judgement. Specifically, His condemnation was against wickedness:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."



>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well? What "law" of his did they break?>> ^shinyblurry:
God destroyed the entire world in a flood that left 8 people alive. God is sovereign over His creation and we are under His law, and His judgement. Specifically, His condemnation was against wickedness:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Check out this awful fucking video
Two-camel-spiders-fight-to-the-DEATH

Can It be said that the person who put those two things in that box bears no responsibility for the terrible events that follow?

One other thing the free will argument for evil fails to address is evil humans couldn't possibly be responsible for ie. Earthquakes and tsunamis. How about smallpox and malaria were they really necessary?

As for original sin, what a load of herpes. Just say you go nuts one day and shoot a bunch of Amish and yourself. So state just takes all your kids and their kids and locks them up in a prison full of the children of other criminals whereupon they remain forever including all the babies born inside.

For a god that can "only do what is logically possible" he sure makes a lot of irrational decisions

Should a parent by liable for giving birth to a child that turns out to be a murderer? That video is awful, but humans aren't camel spiders..they don't have to attack and hurt eachother. They know by their conscience what is correct behavior and have a choice to do good or not.

Before sin entered the world, there weren't any natural disasters or diseases. When the creation fell, all of those things came with it. In the last days, the increase of natural disasters and plagues and such are directly correlated to the increase in sin. It is one of the signs of the last days when there start to be a greater than normal amount of them.

I'm not sure what you mean by your example. That just demonstrates the inequity of mankind, and its not as if anyone is unreachable by God. Those children aren't forever doomed. In any case, the situation on Earth would be far different if people actually followed the rules. People think about the law in terms of punishment but it is there to moderate our behavior. To compel us to act according to our better natures. If people followed what Jesus taught there simply wouldn't be any inequity in this world.


>> ^acidSpine:
Check out this awful fucking video
Two-camel-spiders-fight-to-the-DEATH
Can It be said that the person who put those two things in that box bears no responsibility for the terrible events that follow?
One other thing the free will argument for evil fails to address is evil humans couldn't possibly be responsible for ie. Earthquakes and tsunamis. How about smallpox and malaria were they really necessary?
As for original sin, what a load of herpes. Just say you go nuts one day and shoot a bunch of Amish and yourself. So state just takes all your kids and their kids and locks them up in a prison full of the children of other criminals whereupon they remain forever including all the babies born inside.
For a god that can "only do what is logically possible" he sure makes a lot of irrational decisions

Sin created smallpox? Be serious
>> ^shinyblurry:

Should a parent by liable for giving birth to a child that turns out to be a murderer? That video is awful, but humans aren't camel spiders..they don't have to attack and hurt eachother. They know by their conscience what is correct behavior and have a choice to do good or not.
Before sin entered the world, there weren't any natural disasters or diseases. When the creation fell, all of those things came with it. In the last days, the increase of natural disasters and plagues and such are directly correlated to the increase in sin. It is one of the signs of the last days when there start to be a greater than normal amount of them.
I'm not sure what you mean by your example. That just demonstrates the inequity of mankind, and its not as if anyone is unreachable by God. Those children aren't forever doomed. In any case, the situation on Earth would be far different if people actually followed the rules. People think about the law in terms of punishment but it is there to moderate our behavior. To compel us to act according to our better natures. If people followed what Jesus taught there simply wouldn't be any inequity in this world.

Well, God created everything..but before the fall there wasn't anything harmful. Food was plentiful, animals were tame, and bacteria was benign. It's part of the corruption and the curse that we have disease and everything else.

>> ^acidSpine:
Sin created smallpox? Be serious
>> ^shinyblurry:
Should a parent by liable for giving birth to a child that turns out to be a murderer? That video is awful, but humans aren't camel spiders..they don't have to attack and hurt eachother. They know by their conscience what is correct behavior and have a choice to do good or not.
Before sin entered the world, there weren't any natural disasters or diseases. When the creation fell, all of those things came with it. In the last days, the increase of natural disasters and plagues and such are directly correlated to the increase in sin. It is one of the signs of the last days when there start to be a greater than normal amount of them.
I'm not sure what you mean by your example. That just demonstrates the inequity of mankind, and its not as if anyone is unreachable by God. Those children aren't forever doomed. In any case, the situation on Earth would be far different if people actually followed the rules. People think about the law in terms of punishment but it is there to moderate our behavior. To compel us to act according to our better natures. If people followed what Jesus taught there simply wouldn't be any inequity in this world.

Well I just found the purpose for which sb was put on the earth--to provide amusement.

Really Dumb video. And scrolling down and reading every point completely annihilated; I don't even have to read anything he writes (I know all their stupidity by heart--I was raised eyes deep in this shit).

It's a strange facet of youth culture, that you openly ignore even processing information which runs contrary to your preconceived notions. That's what we call willful ignorance. I don't think that you have considered these issues very deeply if you feel that anything anyone mentioned here in this thread "completely annihilated" any of the points in the video. I'm sure it gave you a little thrill though to have all your views confirmed and not have to think too hard about it. In any case, if insulting me and speaking about me in the third person is your contribution to this thread, I think the truth about your understanding of this is self-evident at this point.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
Well I just found the purpose for which sb was put on the earth--to provide amusement.
Really Dumb video. And scrolling down and reading every point completely annihilated; I don't even have to read anything he writes (I know all their stupidity by heart--I was raised eyes deep in this shit).

You think you were sent by God? Try again..

And no, being openly degraded and treated as inhuman isn't something I enjoy. I would rather have a civil conversation any day. However, I recognize that not everyone matured past junior high so I have accepted the ridicule as a fact of life. You guys are actually some of the more polite atheists that I've met.

>> ^hpqp:
@shinyblurry
Don't you understand? I've been sent by God to test your faith and resolve! I love you the same way He does.
And be honest, feeling persecuted gives you a major righteous hard-on. Your welcome.

As silly as that statement is that all animals had become wicked...it can't be true according to the story since Noah and his crew had to collect a bunch to be saved.

You believe that all the children and all the infants were not evil but destined to be evil? Now what happened to this "freedom" that God gave them?

The reset button? Now that IS something I think an omnipotent being would be capable of. With one flip of the almighty reset button all the wicked men, women, and animals would be dead...gone...turned to dust. But this whole Noah has to build a big ass boat and collect all the species of the planet and then a rainstorm that floods the ENTIRE earth...even covering the tallest mountain? Have you even thought of how much water that is? That doesn't sound like the work of an omnipotent being. It sounds like a campfire story created by primitive men.>> ^shinyblurry:


It says all flesh, which would include animals. At that point the entire world had been overtaken by wickedness, so the children of the time were destined to grow up even worse than their parents. The animals, too, had their ways corrupted by their close contact with human beings. Basically, evil had reached a point of total saturation and God hit the reset button.
>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well?

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

I was an agnostic until I was suddenly given special revelation of Gods existence.
I found out later that this means I am elected, in that God already knew before He made anything that He would create me here and now for His purposes
Some Christians think everyone is elected. I don't, personally.

All I have to say is get the fuck over yourselves. You're not as smart as you think you are. How about you be honest and stop playing the philosophical gotchya game and admit there isn't a shred of evidence in your corner, what so ever, and if we want to get real, morality is inconvenient for your sinning so of course it has to go

Lacking an objective standard for morality, what makes it wrong? Why is it bad to have sex with animals, hurt people, rape people..

Now on your example of rape victims, there are different translations for the particular hebrew word. It's not clear that is what it is talking about. However, I'll address it in the literal sense, though I won't commit myself to this definition. Sex is considered the spiritual act of marriage. When people have relations they are cleaved together in the spirit. That's why fornication is forbidden. So, whether it was unfortunate or not, the couple were married spiritually at that point and thus they would only compound the sin by being seperated.

What Dan Savage does isn't sex. It's consensual sodomy. Thats part of what evil does is redefine the meanings of things. The love that two gay men have for eachother is not beautiful, it is repulsive. God does not approve of their union, and they should never be married. What they love is sin, and sin is not beautiful. It is an abomination before the Lord.

fornication is just plainly a sin, and for the reason that sex is a spiritual marriage between two people. You are spiritually joined to whomever you have sex with, forever.
maybe you reprobates can't imagine giving up your carnal lusts because its what you're living for, but that lifestyle is meaningless, sad and no better than what animals do.

Do you have even a modicum of dignity or self respect? You have promoted yourself as a harlot and you draw mens attention with lasciviousness. You are prostituting yourself and it is revolting.

If you care to give an argument that isn't based on hyperbole, I might actually engage you. Otherwise, you're just making yourself look foolish, even if the ignoramouses on this site happen to agree with you. Any objective person who has studied this at length would find your conclusions childish at best.

I find it amusing that atheists like to say they are all great happy loving people who actually do more good works than the average Christian does. LOL This must be your non-neckbearded internet dwelling variety. Not at all the bitter, purile, egotists who love to trash believers at any opportunity that I've experienced. I'm sorry but atheists are terrible people. Immoral, selfish and apathetic to a T. Violent and angry too. Atheists are usually the worst kind of people you could imagine.

I'm not surprised by the bias of the sift, nor the childish behavior of its members..I was interested if anyone here had an inherent sense of fairness and could look past their own bias..but I guess not

Christians love atheists..just because we think you're wrong doesn't mean we don't love you. Atheists on the other hand seem to have nothing but hatred and derision for us..

You have the gall to impringe on my witness and imply im crazy..hey, at least im internally consistant.

I really think passive aggressive people are the worst kind of people besides atheists. Put them together and you've got a front seat to the 7th circle of hell. To me, you might as well be banging rocks together if you don't know you have a soul, or there is a God. People like this are mostly automated because they don't really know how anything works, or that God controls everything.

I don't deride anyone who doesn't believe me, I just happen to know anyone who isn't interested has become self-satisfied with the worldly understanding..which is worthless.

you can always look back on the glory days when you were a talking turd on the internet..

if he wants to be civil and converse like real people instead of rabid animals, I'll be here.


How is it that atheists seem to believe they can just go around and treat someone like garbage and talk down to them like children because they think they're right about something..why is this socially acceptable?

Yes, you're free to do whatever you want. Like any other slack jawed yokel idiot, you can live life the charlie sheen way, shallowly indulging yourself in all the puerile tripe you identify with a winning lifestyle.

You'll get to mock God for a little while and do what you want, until His mercy runs out and He takes you off of this world. You'll be found guilty at the judgement and then you'll join the devil and his angels in the lake of fire. Do you think you'll think it was worth it then? I'm betting not.

If you want to have an actual debate on civilized terms, I'll engage you. I've already answered enough of this bullshit. God is sovereign and can adjudicate His creation as He pleases. He destroyed the entire world in a flood, and that's everyone on the planet except for 8 people or so, and I don't think He was wrong.
Personally, if I was God I probably would have blown this fucking planet up a long time ago.
It's not an atrocity to take a life when you were the one who granted it in the first place and the one who sustained it daily.

What is contemptible, vainglorious and infinitely evil is the desire to disobey God and sin without consequence. Anyone who adovocates that deserves their punishment.

Gay rights? Sinners have no rights, they are a slave to sin. America is becoming more like babylon every day, especially in what it deserves as punishment for its actions.

Apparently homosexual atheists are in force these days.

as usual the sift turns off its brain

I am a highly rational and logical person , who has reasoned these things out to a much deeper level than any of you would be willing to give me credit for

You're entitled to your malformed, tumor-swollen opinion. Mine happens to have biblical justification.

In the context of a bunch of googly eyed mouth breathers saying God doesn't exist, where Satans special little helpers file in to preach their faith, not much is going to come out of this which is positive.

Wow, emote much? See what actually happened here is that you posted a bunch of information that wasn't true (while being rude and childish to boot), and I corrected you. Now, you send me a comment filled with personal attacks and call me immature. I'm guessing you're probably..15? Give me a break. Go do your homework and clean your room while you're at it.

I have better things to do than waste my time arguing on the internet for fun, and it's not fun to argue.

I'm commanded by God to preach the gospel and it's a joy for me to do so. I also enjoy a lively debate. That's why I am here.

You ever notice how hypocrites usually contridict themselves within a few sentences? I do..

The devil was once an ArchAngel who was created faultless,
He was in fact just an arrogant, prideful being who wanted all the power for himself.

One day, people will thank me for opening their mind up to how they've been lied to every day of their life and indoctrinated into a world system thats literally trying to drag them straight to hell.

Satan has you.

You need professional help. Seriously. Not kidding about this.



Preach on, brotherman. It's a sick kind of irony to do the very same thing you're accusing someone else of doing, especially whilst doing said accusing.



>> ^shinyblurry:

You think you were sent by God? Try again..
And no, being openly degraded and treated as inhuman isn't something I enjoy. I would rather have a civil conversation any day.

@hpqp

Animals can't sin, it isn't about right or wrong for them. The passage states the way of all flesh had been corrupted..that could mean a number of things, but it isnt expressly said what that meant for animals. I think God might correct an animals behavior since it doesn't have free choice, personally. An animal doesn't have rights, they were put here under the dominion of human beings, for our benefit.

We're all born with a sin nature, so there isn't such a thing as an innocent person, child or not. I think it is to say that the world was so bent on evil at that point that they wouldn't have a chance. As far as where the water came from, it also came from underground. Here is one underground ocean that was discovered:

http://www.livescience.com/1312-huge-ocean-discovered-earth.html

>> ^Grimm:
As silly as that statement is that all animals had become wicked...it can't be true according to the story since Noah and his crew had to collect a bunch to be saved.
You believe that all the children and all the infants were not evil but destined to be evil? Now what happened to this "freedom" that God gave them?
The reset button? Now that IS something I think an omnipotent being would be capable of. With one flip of the almighty reset button all the wicked men, women, and animals would be dead...gone...turned to dust. But this whole Noah has to build a big ass boat and collect all the species of the planet and then a rainstorm that floods the ENTIRE earth...even covering the tallest mountain? Have you even thought of how much water that is? That doesn't sound like the work of an omnipotent being. It sounds like a campfire story created by primitive men.>> ^shinyblurry:
It says all flesh, which would include animals. At that point the entire world had been overtaken by wickedness, so the children of the time were destined to grow up even worse than their parents. The animals, too, had their ways corrupted by their close contact with human beings. Basically, evil had reached a point of total saturation and God hit the reset button.
>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well?

@hqpq..true, I admit I have said some harsh things about atheists, and stupid things in general, and I apologize for some of those remarks. I'm far from perfect. I have, however, endevoured to be more magnanamous and patient with my heathen friends here.

If I were to compile a list of all the nasty things people have said to me on the sift, even you might be shocked. The point is, whether you like me or not, I still accept you as a human being and would have a civil conversation with you. I don't hold any grudges. You obviously don't feel the same way, and you go out of your way to announce it to me as much as possible. Well, I get it..you don't like me; I hear you loud and clear. Now hear what I have to say: God loves you, and so do I.

I love you the same way God does @shinyblurry... actually, no, I wouldn't curse you and all your descendants for disobeying me once, nor would I condemn you to eternal torture for not loving me back.

Heck, that means I <3 you more than He does, by Jove!

What you'd love is to be God, to ascend to Heaven: to raise your throne above the stars of God. To sit entrhoned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

Isaiah 14:15

But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit.

>> ^hpqp:
I love you the same way God does @shinyblurry... actually, no, I wouldn't curse you and all your descendants for disobeying me once, nor would I condemn you to eternal torture for not loving me back.
Heck, that means I <3 you more than He does, by Jove!
<IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/troll.gif">

This is nonsense, there is no god, as people have mentioned.

Aww Shiny, what happened to "Who you love is yourself. How you love is like gargling razor blades with grain alcohol"? You shouldn't censor yourself like that, it's unhealthy. Let it all out, tell us how you really feel!

Oh, and thank you for suggesting I'm Lucifer, I would've thought it pretentious to call myself
the light-bearer, but if it's you saying it I'll humbly accept the compliment.

edit: btw shiny, how are you so sure it's you I don't like, and not all the hateful and ignorant religious drivel you spout nonstop?



@ghark filling in for @CaptainObvious are we?

>> ^shinyblurry:

What you'd love is to be God, to ascend to Heaven: to raise your throne above the stars of God. To sit entrhoned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
Isaiah 14:15
But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit.
>> ^hpqp:
I love you the same way God does @shinyblurry... actually, no, I wouldn't curse you and all your descendants for disobeying me once, nor would I condemn you to eternal torture for not loving me back.
Heck, that means I <3 you more than He does, by Jove!
<IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/troll.gif">

You're not lucifer but occassionally you speak his mind. As far as what you hate, it's the same as anyone else who is in rebellion; you hate Gods authority over your life. You're obviously not secure in your beliefs, and the reason is..God has made His existence plain to you. Although you have supressed the truth, you know there is a God and that you are under His authority. What you hate is the fact that you will account to Him one day, but still you do what you do knowing the consequences. You said you were once some manner of Christian..which means that the truth has become common to you..you rejected the Holy Spirit so you no longer understand it, but in your eyes you think you understand it better than people who do have the Spirit. It's caused you to become supremely arrogant towards God, and thus it is unlikely you will realize your error. It's not hopeless..you're obviously still pretty young and might grow up one day..but as it stands now you are in serious trouble.

As far as what you really feel about me..who knows? You don't know me, and in any case the persona you project here is always putting on a sarcastic little show..nothing real to be seen as of yet so its impossible to tell.

>> ^hpqp:
Aww Shiny, what happened to "Who you love is yourself. How you love is like gargling razor blades with grain alcohol"? You shouldn't censor yourself like that, it's unhealthy. Let it all out, tell us how you really feel!
Oh, and thank you for suggesting I'm Lucifer, I would've thought it pretentious to call myself
the light-bearer, but if it's you saying it I'll humbly accept the compliment.
edit: btw shiny, how are you so sure it's you I don't like, and not all the hateful and ignorant religious drivel you spout nonstop?
@ghark filling in for @CaptainObvious are we?
>> ^shinyblurry:
What you'd love is to be God, to ascend to Heaven: to raise your throne above the stars of God. To sit entrhoned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
Isaiah 14:15
But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit.
>> ^hpqp:
I love you the same way God does @shinyblurry... actually, no, I wouldn't curse you and all your descendants for disobeying me once, nor would I condemn you to eternal torture for not loving me back.
Heck, that means I <3 you more than He does, by Jove!
<IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/troll.gif">

Hey @shinyblurry

Eat a dick.

..you might like it.

Methinks shinyblurry is staunchly in favor of cocoa puffs.

>> ^bareboards2:

@packo, what is sad is that folks will watch this and not understand the illogical sand upon which the whole video sits. It is effective -- look at the votes it is garnering.
What bothers me so much is the whole idea of punishing Adam and Eve for gaining knowledge. For punishing them for "disobeying" God. It is the spine that runs through so much of the Christian religion -- shut up and do what the person in charge says.
Having said that, I recognize that many people crave the discipline and structure of an outside agency to help shape their lives.
Nothing is perfect. Religion does much good and helps folks. Religion is also responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity. Both can be true, the statements are not mutually exclusive.
And therein lies true Freedom -- the choice to walk away from an authoritarian presence and create your own inner moral compass through free will, not because you are threatened with burning in hell for eternity.


Most say that Adam/Eve was about a threesome and that the fruit was a metaphor... Adam sleeping with a man (Devil) and sharing his wife with that man...

Moving this video to shinyblurry's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 2 days.

Never fails to amuse me when people repeat the cliche that something is an "abomination before the Lord". As if their God hasn't seen so much nastiness already that he's still squeamish and finds things "abominable". Is He constantly saying "I almost threw up in my mouth over that"?

This interpertation stems from jewish mysticism, but it doesn't at all follow from the passage:

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves

Sex is pleasing to the eye and good for food? She took sex and then gave it to her husband? It's a nonsense interpertation. This was about knowledge. Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, kind of like babes, and relied on God for everything. Eve decided that she didn't want to be babied anymore and make her own decisions. She lusted after Gods wisdom; she wanted to make judgements for herself. God warned them against going it alone, and that it would lead to death..this is because the Lords ways are perfect, and perfection leads to eternal life. Imperfection leads to death. When Adam and Eve decided to try to take the place of God in their life, they became mortal, and corrupted. That's how sin and death entered the world, and is still the problem today..that people want to trust in their own wisdom above that of their Creator.



>> ^Lawdeedaw:
>> ^bareboards2:
@packo, what is sad is that folks will watch this and not understand the illogical sand upon which the whole video sits. It is effective -- look at the votes it is garnering.
What bothers me so much is the whole idea of punishing Adam and Eve for gaining knowledge. For punishing them for "disobeying" God. It is the spine that runs through so much of the Christian religion -- shut up and do what the person in charge says.
Having said that, I recognize that many people crave the discipline and structure of an outside agency to help shape their lives.
Nothing is perfect. Religion does much good and helps folks. Religion is also responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity. Both can be true, the statements are not mutually exclusive.
And therein lies true Freedom -- the choice to walk away from an authoritarian presence and create your own inner moral compass through free will, not because you are threatened with burning in hell for eternity.

Most say that Adam/Eve was about a threesome and that the fruit was a metaphor... Adam sleeping with a man (Devil) and sharing his wife with that man...

God is Holy and cannot stand sin. He hates it no matter how common it is.

There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,

18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up dissension in the community.


>> ^ulysses1904:
Never fails to amuse me when people repeat the cliche that something is an "abomination before the Lord". As if their God hasn't seen so much nastiness already that he's still squeamish and finds things "abominable". Is He constantly saying "I almost threw up in my mouth over that"?

Interesting: "Is God Good?" and "What substance was Han Solo frozen in?" have the same answer.

>> ^shinyblurry:

You're not lucifer but occassionally you speak his mind. As far as what you hate, it's the same as anyone else who is in rebellion; you hate Gods authority over your life. You're obviously not secure in your beliefs, and the reason is..God has made His existence plain to you. Although you have supressed the truth, you know there is a God and that you are under His authority. What you hate is the fact that you will account to Him one day, but still you do what you do knowing the consequences. You said you were once some manner of Christian..which means that the truth has become common to you..you rejected the Holy Spirit so you no longer understand it, but in your eyes you think you understand it better than people who do have the Spirit. It's caused you to become supremely arrogant towards God, and thus it is unlikely you will realize your error. It's not hopeless..you're obviously still pretty young and might grow up one day..but as it stands now you are in serious trouble.
As far as what you really feel about me..who knows? You don't know me, and in any case the persona you project here is always putting on a sarcastic little show..nothing real to be seen as of yet so its impossible to tell.


Firstly, congrats on the star, sb. Sincerely. You might actually be on your way to acquiring your downvote powers. If that happens, fellas...watch out, we'll have another ant on our hands.

Secondly, a serious question: Are you doing the whole "you're-just-angry-with-god" thing for hpqp's benefit or do you believe that is the case with all people who claim to be atheists?

In other words, do you accept the fact that there are people who are genuine non-believers for whom all these admonitions are moot? I realize they're real for you and that you think they're real for us too. But do you accept that we, that is to say: those of us who identify themselves as such, are genuine non-believers who do not lose a nanosecond of sleep worrying about whether we've made a terrible mistake?

Or is it your position that we're all secretly in denial?

I think it varies. I think some of you have more than a suspicion, but don't want to stop living the way you do so you're in denial. Others, like HQPQ are deliberately suppressing the truth.

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Meaning, that Gods eternal power and divine nature are revealed through the Creation itself. This is how I came to know there was a God, because it was clearly revealed to me that there is a higher power working in this world. Before that, I had no real opinion on it and wasn't even looking for an answer.

Perhaps God has yet to make it clear to you. If that is the case, if you ask God to reveal Himself to you He just might do it. It depends on what is in your heart, whether you are interested in the truth or comfortable with lies. Faith is a gift from God, and no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him near first, so the unrighteous remain blinded by their own wickedness.

John 3:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

btw, i have a star? Am I just an idiot because I'm not seeing one..







>> ^shuac:
>> ^shinyblurry:
You're not lucifer but occassionally you speak his mind. As far as what you hate, it's the same as anyone else who is in rebellion; you hate Gods authority over your life. You're obviously not secure in your beliefs, and the reason is..God has made His existence plain to you. Although you have supressed the truth, you know there is a God and that you are under His authority. What you hate is the fact that you will account to Him one day, but still you do what you do knowing the consequences. You said you were once some manner of Christian..which means that the truth has become common to you..you rejected the Holy Spirit so you no longer understand it, but in your eyes you think you understand it better than people who do have the Spirit. It's caused you to become supremely arrogant towards God, and thus it is unlikely you will realize your error. It's not hopeless..you're obviously still pretty young and might grow up one day..but as it stands now you are in serious trouble.
As far as what you really feel about me..who knows? You don't know me, and in any case the persona you project here is always putting on a sarcastic little show..nothing real to be seen as of yet so its impossible to tell.

Firstly, congrats on the star, sb. Sincerely. You might actually be on your way to acquiring your downvote powers. If that happens, fellas...watch out, we'll have another ant on our hands. <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/wink.gif">
Secondly, a serious question: Are you doing the whole "you're-just-angry-with-god" thing for hpqp's benefit or do you believe that is the case with all people who claim to be atheists?
In other words, do you accept the fact that there are people who are genuine non-believers for whom all these admonitions are moot? I realize they're real for you and that you think they're real for us too. But do you accept that we, that is to say: those of us who identify themselves as such, are genuine non-believers who do not lose a nanosecond of sleep worrying about whether we've made a terrible mistake?
Or is it your position that we're all secretly in denial?

I meant star point. You receive a star point for each vid that gets 10 upvotes. Check your member profile to see how many you have. You have at least one b/c this vid sifted. Capice? 25 star points (I think) gets you a bronze star.

I can't speak for anyone else but I am blissfully free of suspicion about god which is why quoting the bible has less than zero effect. It's like quoting a Star Wars novel if you want to convince people that Greedo really did shoot first. It's all fiction. Just like the Quran. And the torah. And the Bhagavat Gita. They can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

And for supposedly being divinely-inspired, the bible is a wildly unimpressive book. However, I'm sure putting all those biblical passages down in your reply made a bunch of clicky noises on your keyboard. So there you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Hey shiny, I know you like evangelasing so I have two simple questions for you that shouldn't take much time to answer. Here goes

1. What was the knowledge Adam and Eve supposedly gained by eating the forbidden fruit?
2. As human beings are we capable of judging god's moral character?

As a sweetener, if you answer both questions succinctly I will upvote this vid re-sifting it as it were (unless the recent downvote didn't remove a star point in which case I have nothing to offer)

Sorry acidspine, I missed your question here.

1: When God created Adam and Eve, they were created in a state of innocence. The creation at that point was declared by God to be good. So Adam and Eve enjoyed a fellowship with God without any contamination of evil. However, God had to offer them a choice. If He didn't, they would have no more than puppets. He desired a loving relationship with them, but it would not be love if they had no choice. God wanted them to choose love and trust Him. The only way to give them a choice would be to command something that was not allowed.

So He gave them one rule, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them, saying that God was a liar and that the knowledge of good and evil would be a good thing, and that they would even be equal to God. The knowledge was this; to know the difference between good and evil. Before they gained this knowledge, they relied on God to tell them the difference. They enjoyed a state of innocence because of this. God wished them to be free of evil and to teach them step by step. They decided to betray God, however, and believe the devil..and when they ate of the fruit, the knowledge of evil brought to them fear and shame. Their innocent relationship with God was ruined. Their corruption meant they could no longer enjoy direct fellowship with God, so He cast them out of the garden. They also lost their immortality and began to die. Their sin brought death into the world. Obviously, it wasn't a good thing.

2: Well, first, all human beings are hypocrites. God is perfect and Holy. Ultimate justice could only be decided by a perfect being..all else would be hypocripsy and injustice. So our judgement will always be imperfect and unjust. If God broke His own laws, yes we could point the finger at Him. If He broke even one, it would mean He was imperfect and unqualified to judge us. We however are stained by our sins. It isn't rare to have broken almost every commandment even at a young age. If a murderer pointed the finger at you because he didnt like your behavior, would you take him seriously? God said if we even hate anyone we have committed murder in our hearts. So, pointing the finger at God when we ourselves are stained by sin is fairly ridiculous. We are born into this world with nothing, and life is a gift, but somehow we feel entitled to say God owes us something, as if God is our debtor. With sin on our minds, and corruption in our hearts, we say to God..what right have you to judge us! Well, He has every right..He is sovereign over His creation.

Isaiah 29:15-16

Woe to those who go to great depths to hide their plans from the LORD, who do their work in darkness and think, "Who sees us? Who will know?"

You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?

>> ^acidSpine:
Hey shiny, I know you like evangelasing so I have two simple questions for you that shouldn't take much time to answer. Here goes
1. What was the knowledge Adam and Eve supposedly gained by eating the forbidden fruit?
2. As human beings are we capable of judging god's moral character?
As a sweetener, if you answer both questions succinctly I will upvote this vid re-sifting it as it were (unless the recent downvote didn't remove a star point in which case I have nothing to offer)

>> ^shinyblurry:

Sorry acidspine, I missed your question here.
1: When God created Adam and Eve, they were created in a state of innocence. The creation at that point was declared by God to be good. So Adam and Eve enjoyed a fellowship with God without any contamination of evil. However, God had to offer them a choice. If He didn't, they would have no more than puppets. He desired a loving relationship with them, but it would not be love if they had no choice. God wanted them to choose love and trust Him. The only way to give them a choice would be to command something that was not allowed.
So He gave them one rule, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them, saying that God was a liar and that the knowledge of good and evil would be a good thing, and that they would even be equal to God. The knowledge was this; to know the difference between good and evil. Before they gained this knowledge, they relied on God to tell them the difference. They enjoyed a state of innocence because of this. God wished them to be free of evil and to teach them step by step. They decided to betray God, however, and believe the devil..and when they ate of the fruit, the knowledge of evil brought to them fear and shame. Their innocent relationship with God was ruined. Their corruption meant they could no longer enjoy direct fellowship with God, so He cast them out of the garden. They also lost their immortality and began to die. Their sin brought death into the world. Obviously, it wasn't a good thing.
2: Well, first, all human beings are hypocrites. God is perfect and Holy. Ultimate justice could only be decided by a perfect being..all else would be hypocripsy and injustice. So our judgement will always be imperfect and unjust. If God broke His own laws, yes we could point the finger at Him. If He broke even one, it would mean He was imperfect and unqualified to judge us. We however are stained by our sins. It isn't rare to have broken almost every commandment even at a young age. If a murderer pointed the finger at you because he didnt like your behavior, would you take him seriously? God said if we even hate anyone we have committed murder in our hearts. So, pointing the finger at God when we ourselves are stained by sin is fairly ridiculous. We are born into this world with nothing, and life is a gift, but somehow we feel entitled to say God owes us something, as if God is our debtor. With sin on our minds, and corruption in our hearts, we say to God..what right have you to judge us! Well, He has every right..He is sovereign over His creation.
Isaiah 29:15-16
Woe to those who go to great depths to hide their plans from the LORD, who do their work in darkness and think, "Who sees us? Who will know?"
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?
>> ^acidSpine:
Hey shiny, I know you like evangelasing so I have two simple questions for you that shouldn't take much time to answer. Here goes
1. What was the knowledge Adam and Eve supposedly gained by eating the forbidden fruit?
2. As human beings are we capable of judging god's moral character?
As a sweetener, if you answer both questions succinctly I will upvote this vid re-sifting it as it were (unless the recent downvote didn't remove a star point in which case I have nothing to offer)



Thats ok

I'll be breif. Your answer to the first question was that in the bible Adam and Eve gained knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit. But if they had no knowledge of good and evil how would they know doing the wrong thing was bad?
I'm not really sure that you answered the second question but I will just say if I'm not allowed to judge god as (non-existant) evil then you aren't allowed to judge him as good.

Thanks for the reply

1. Adam and Eve had a limited knowledge of good and evil by what God had informed them about..they knew enough to know it was wrong to disobey God.

2. God isn't merely good, like He is living up to some sort of standard. He is goodness itself. So when I call God good, I am not judging His character, I am describing it. I call God good because that is what He is, inherently. I am, like you, incapable of judging God, but I can describe Him. It's not a value judgement, it's really the definition of what good is and where it comes from.

>> ^acidSpine:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sorry acidspine, I missed your question here.
1: When God created Adam and Eve, they were created in a state of innocence. The creation at that point was declared by God to be good. So Adam and Eve enjoyed a fellowship with God without any contamination of evil. However, God had to offer them a choice. If He didn't, they would have no more than puppets. He desired a loving relationship with them, but it would not be love if they had no choice. God wanted them to choose love and trust Him. The only way to give them a choice would be to command something that was not allowed.
So He gave them one rule, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them, saying that God was a liar and that the knowledge of good and evil would be a good thing, and that they would even be equal to God. The knowledge was this; to know the difference between good and evil. Before they gained this knowledge, they relied on God to tell them the difference. They enjoyed a state of innocence because of this. God wished them to be free of evil and to teach them step by step. They decided to betray God, however, and believe the devil..and when they ate of the fruit, the knowledge of evil brought to them fear and shame. Their innocent relationship with God was ruined. Their corruption meant they could no longer enjoy direct fellowship with God, so He cast them out of the garden. They also lost their immortality and began to die. Their sin brought death into the world. Obviously, it wasn't a good thing.
2: Well, first, all human beings are hypocrites. God is perfect and Holy. Ultimate justice could only be decided by a perfect being..all else would be hypocripsy and injustice. So our judgement will always be imperfect and unjust. If God broke His own laws, yes we could point the finger at Him. If He broke even one, it would mean He was imperfect and unqualified to judge us. We however are stained by our sins. It isn't rare to have broken almost every commandment even at a young age. If a murderer pointed the finger at you because he didnt like your behavior, would you take him seriously? God said if we even hate anyone we have committed murder in our hearts. So, pointing the finger at God when we ourselves are stained by sin is fairly ridiculous. We are born into this world with nothing, and life is a gift, but somehow we feel entitled to say God owes us something, as if God is our debtor. With sin on our minds, and corruption in our hearts, we say to God..what right have you to judge us! Well, He has every right..He is sovereign over His creation.
Isaiah 29:15-16
Woe to those who go to great depths to hide their plans from the LORD, who do their work in darkness and think, "Who sees us? Who will know?"
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?
>> ^acidSpine:
Hey shiny, I know you like evangelasing so I have two simple questions for you that shouldn't take much time to answer. Here goes
1. What was the knowledge Adam and Eve supposedly gained by eating the forbidden fruit?
2. As human beings are we capable of judging god's moral character?
As a sweetener, if you answer both questions succinctly I will upvote this vid re-sifting it as it were (unless the recent downvote didn't remove a star point in which case I have nothing to offer)


Thats ok
I'll be breif. Your answer to the first question was that in the bible Adam and Eve gained knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit. But if they had no knowledge of good and evil how would they know doing the wrong thing was bad?
I'm not really sure that you answered the second question but I will just say if I'm not allowed to judge god as (non-existant) evil then you aren't allowed to judge him as good.
Thanks for the reply