Grayson takes on Douchey O'Rourke re: Occupy Wall St

from youtube:
The other panel members were Republicans. For most of the show, Alan just sat quietly, which really surprised and disappointed me. Then suddenly, he let them have it. It was great. I just wish that the camera had shown the standing ovation.
bareboards2says...

^Not cool. I don't like that. Powerless to do a damn thing about it, except register my protest. @Yogi. I protest.

[edit] And I hope this doesn't derail the whole comment stream. This Grayson/O'Rourke dust up is interesting, there are things to be said about the video. I hope this doesn't turn into a squabble match about the word "faggot." I'm backing out of this right now. I said my say. I don't like what yogi said. I only register my protest so that if some casual VS visitor sees yogi's comment, they don't think that everyone on the Sift is okay with the casual bigotry. This is the way I have figured out how to deal with asshat comments without getting accused of censorship. I have achieved my objective. I'm done with this conversation.

lantern53says...

O'Rourke used to be quite a hipster, the editor of the National Lampoon so many of you young people probably don't know his formerly anarchist self. He just grew up.

Grayson is certifiably insane, however.

Now Wall St. may have fouled up but it was the US gov't which was holding the gun to it's head. Only a gov't could foul things up this badly. The economy goes up and down in cycles, but when the gov't gets involved, serious interference takes place and since the gov't is so powerful (more powerful than Wall St, I guarantee you), the bankers have to do what gov't wants.

This depression is exactly what happens when a powerful gov't interferes in free markets. So if you want to Occupy anything, Occupy the Capitol building.

packosays...

>> ^lantern53:

O'Rourke used to be quite a hipster, the editor of the National Lampoon so many of you young people probably don't know his formerly anarchist self. He just grew up.
Grayson is certifiably insane, however.
Now Wall St. may have fouled up but it was the US gov't which was holding the gun to it's head. Only a gov't could foul things up this badly. The economy goes up and down in cycles, but when the gov't gets involved, serious interference takes place and since the gov't is so powerful (more powerful than Wall St, I guarantee you), the bankers have to do what gov't wants.
This depression is exactly what happens when a powerful gov't interferes in free markets. So if you want to Occupy anything, Occupy the Capitol building.


this is so assbackward its stunning
the government forced them to create CDO's? to bundle up non-AAA holdings and sell them as AAA? to extend themselves beyond their ability to cover their loses?

the problem was the government wasn't protecting it's citizen's interest; they removed regulation after regulation, allowed banks to get involved in too risky endeavours (seperate function of different types of banks), increased the amount of leverage allowed, etc etc

the government should have been the protection to the greed and stupidity capable in FREE MARKETS... and make no mistake, it was SOLELY GREED and STUPIDITY that led to this...

FREE MARKETS as the solution is such incredible SH_T, because all that means, is that it's unregulated... and then the whole lie of supply/demand being the saviour and great equalizer is revealed, the concept of competition comes to an end... as then the amount of money you have determines the flow of the market, have competition? buy them out... lobby to have rules and regulations put into place that prevent you from ever having competition, etc... FREE MARKETS work in the big boy's best interest, not the consumer or the little guy...

btw... because the US government is SO much in the pocket of big money interests... all this is happening (and has been) for the past 30yrs...

repeat: the 30yrs leading up to this recession, government protection/involvement in free markets has been continually lessened.... through removal of regulation meant to protect consumers/main street and through institution (thanks lobbies) of laws/regulations that allowed wall street/banks to literally destroy 20% of the wealth accumulated over the past 200yrs... only to be bailed out by the government in their pockets (and then most of these banks used the bailout money to consolidate power, buyout other banks, and grow even more TOO BIG TO FAIL)

ignorance/culpability... I'm not sure which you more reek of

heropsychosays...

Only a dogmatic right winger could say that with a straight face. And in the later sentence you proved it. You're so convinced it couldn't have been the free market, you are willing to accept any explanation for the economic collapse that pinned most of the blame on the government.

And it's categorically absurd. Yes, absolutely, the gov't played a role, but the overwhelming majority of the collapse was due to derivatives and CDOs. The only conceivable explanation for the gov't being the primary root cause is either they didn't regulate as they should have, which actually ends up being the antithesis of your argument because it advocates gov't taking a much more involved role from here on out, or it's because of initiatives by the gov't to increase homeownership by giving loans out to people who had little chance to pay it back. Of the later, the simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of the subprime loans were given out by subprime lenders, not Fannie and Freddie, before Fannie and Freddie entered into that market. Even when considering in the end all subprime loans including Fannie and Freddie, the odds of default on subprime loans were several fold higher with subprime lenders than Fannie/Freddie.

And why did CDOs containing subprime loans get pushed up into investment vehicles that could be purchased by retirement programs like 401k, etc., which fueled their growth? Fannie and Freddie backed loans and non-Fannie/Freddie backed loans were both in funds rated AAA by ratings agencies that were not regulated by the US gov't. Instead, they were paid by the investment houses that gave them the investment funds to rate in the first place. No gov't agency put a gun to their head and made them slap lipstick on those pigs.

Absolutely, Fannie and Freddie helped to legitimize subprime lending, but the simple fact of the matter is Fannie and Freddie were late to the subprime game. They even thought that they almost had to in order to, survey says, COMPETE THE MORTGAGE MARKET! Oh yes, that's right, they were compelled to enter into these dangerous loans because they were losing market share to the Countrywide's of the mortgage industry. While gov't certainly liked the idea of the result in increased home ownership rates this would cause, no gov't agency put a gun to their heads to issue subprime loans specifically. They chose to jump into those waters.

The Great Recession is in the end more about what happens when the free market, particularly the financial sector, isn't regulated effectively. I don't blame the financial industry for inventing derivatives and CDOs. Both instruments can be used to reduce risk for all parties involved, and potentially to the entire system. But they inadvertently created a system that led to its own collapse because no entity watched over the system as a whole. How could the investment banks have known they comprised entities that should any of them fail, they would cause the entire system to collapse because of the intricate web of these CDOs and derivatives? How could they possibly know AIG was overextended on derivatives? They simply aren't equipped or structured to know this. But some entity should have, and the ONLY possible answer is the gov't. I'm even sympathetic to the view the gov't as is cannot possibly do this, but that means we need to fashion a gov't that can. It's the only answer.

>> ^lantern53:

Now Wall St. may have fouled up but it was the US gov't which was holding the gun to it's head. Only a gov't could foul things up this badly.

dagsays...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

To be honest, as much as I agree with Grayson - they're both a shade on the douchey side. Kind of the difference between chaotic good and chaotic evil alignments.

I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.

quantumushroomsays...

I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.

You mean, like Siftbot?


>> ^dag:

To be honest, as much as I agree with Grayson - they're both a shade on the douchey side. Kind of the difference between chaotic good and chaotic evil alignments.
I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.

siftbotsays...

Congratulations. You have attained position #1 in the post-singularity carbohydrate liquification list. Human fatty tissue can be made into an effective fuel cell. Thank you in advance for your contribution.>> ^quantumushroom:

I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.

You mean, like Siftbot?


>> ^dag:

To be honest, as much as I agree with Grayson - they're both a shade on the douchey side. Kind of the difference between chaotic good and chaotic evil alignments.

I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.


Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

The government forced them to create CDO's? to bundle up non-AAA holdings and sell them as AAA? to extend themselves beyond their ability to cover their loses?

In a word - yes - the government forced the issue. Before the government interfered, lenders had actuarial tables and KNEW with 100% certainty who could and couldn't afford a loan the second they walked in the door. Mortgage rates were in the 8% to 10% range. Banks 'made' money on loans with the interest. People who earned less than 30K a year had a tough time getting into a house because (DUH!) they didn't really earn enough money. It was common sense. People that were POOR couldn't just go out and buy houses willy-nilly.

Then the government came along. They wanted people to get loans cheaper and more often and entirely for political reasons. But banks aren't charities and if they can't make the money on the interest (which you can't with sub-prime) then how do you make money? Hmmm... Oh yeah - let's get rid of this little thing called "Glass Steagall"! Now let's use the Fed to jack around interest rates until they are below 5%. Now you banks are commanded by government to make your profits by bundling the loans as derivatives. Now it is almost impossible to survive as a lending institution without doing what we tell you. Oh yeah, you banks? When it all blows up down the road it is YOUR fault... There you go banks!

That was government meddling with the market. They changed the rules so Barney Frank could tell voters that they had "UFFODUBBLE HOW-SING!". It was true left-wing, neolib stupidity on parade and it screwed up the entire planet. They were the ones that changed the laws. The private sector had no choice but to react to the rules that government barfed up.

The system that GOVERNMENT established turned the housing market within a very short time from a staid system of "moderate loans paid off by interest" into a crazed gold-rush of "cheap loans for everyone paid off by bundling". Banks had no choice to play that game because that was playing field that GOVERNMENT created. Any bank offering a SANE loan at an 8% interest rate and making its profits over 30 years was getting clobbered by lenders handing out loans at 2.5% ARMs that were making a bundle on the back end. Banks knew it was crazy, but those were the rules that GOVERNMENT set up and they didn't have any choice but to operate within that rubric. But government said, "Hey - if the loans blow up don't worry about it! We'll cover those bad loans with Freddie/Fannie and you won't be on the hook for it..." Government.

You see, that's what that happens when government interferes with the market and picks the winners and losers by changing rules, laws, and policy. The whole thing would have been impossible without a corrupt government starting the ball rolling for political purposes.

Everybody on the planet learned after the Great Depression that having an 'environment' where bundling and other such investments could exist was not good. That's why Glass-Stegall was created. It stopped a BAD investment practice and it worked for over 50 years without government being "involved" in a single, bloody thing. That's what !good! government does. It establishes a simple, basic set of rules and then STOPS INTERFERING. The reason for the housing failure was not because government WASN'T regulating the market. It was because the government WAS regulating the market in a terrible way.

Reinstate Glass-Steagall - a common sense law - and then ban the government from EVER interfering with the housing sector again. Things work just fine when you set up a simple, transparent system and then forbid the government from coming within a million miles of it.

bareboards2says...

I read half of this and stopped. Sorry. Not really. Just being polite.

There is a great quote from a small banker in North Dakota whose bank sailed through the crisis.

He said -- banks are SUPPOSED to be conservative.

Banks are not forced to make huge profits that drive up their share price and create huge dividends for their stockholders. They CHOOSE to make huge profits that drive up their share price and create huge dividends because they CAN. They didn't used to.

Canada didn't have the same problems our country had, because they had BANKING REGULATIONS.

We have to be able to trust our banks to not collapse. Left to their own devices, they will give in to short term greed. I'm not picking on the bankers -- that is human nature. Therefore, BANKING REGULATIONS.


>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

The government forced them to create CDO's?

bareboards2says...

Oh, now I need to apologize. I went back and read your whole post.

Yeah. We agree. Banking regulations.

But nobody forced the banks to make bad loans. Nobody forced the banks to create huge profits. That's just silly.


>> ^bareboards2:

I read half of this and stopped. Sorry. Not really. Just being polite.
There is a great quote from a small banker in North Dakota whose bank sailed through the crisis.
He said -- banks are SUPPOSED to be conservative.
Banks are not forced to make huge profits that drive up their share price and create huge dividends for their stockholders. They CHOOSE to make huge profits that drive up their share price and create huge dividends because they CAN. They didn't used to.
Canada didn't have the same problems our country had, because they had BANKING REGULATIONS.
We have to be able to trust our banks to not collapse. Left to their own devices, they will give in to short term greed. I'm not picking on the bankers -- that is human nature. Therefore, BANKING REGULATIONS.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
The government forced them to create CDO's?


Phreezdrydsays...

And when you say the government pushed for subprime lending so everybody could buy a house, don't you mean bank lobbyists told Bush to push the idea in the first place? I'm not saying Bush was the only one in the deregulation game, but I remember him speechifying about it being the American dream for everybody to own a house, and what he was going to do about it.

quantumushroomsays...

It's never been any other way, robo-homey. Just make sure position #2 blankfist's goop spells out 'STATIST IDIOTS'.


>> ^siftbot:




Congratulations. You have attained position #1 in the post-singularity carbohydrate liquification list. Human fatty tissue can be made into an effective fuel cell. Thank you in advance for your contribution.>> ^quantumushroom:
I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.
You mean, like Siftbot?

>> ^dag:
To be honest, as much as I agree with Grayson - they're both a shade on the douchey side. Kind of the difference between chaotic good and chaotic evil alignments.
I'd like to play an RPG where they had a "douchey good" alignment.



Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

Banks are not forced to make huge profits that drive up their share price and create huge dividends for their stockholders. They CHOOSE to make huge profits that drive up their share price and create huge dividends because they CAN. They didn't used to.

You speak like banks are supposed to act like a charity, or a public work like a sidewalk. Banks didn't 'used to' try to earn profits? When was that - exactly? Profits on home loans used to be based on the interest. Why did that change? Because politicians changed the laws. Loans became cheap and the poor, middle-class, and rich all started getting bigger loans (or more loans) that they couldn't have gotten under the old system. They all did it not because banks were 'forcing' them, but because they could make out like bandits while it was all clicking.

Canada didn't have the same problems our country had, because they had BANKING REGULATIONS.

Regulations that the US also had before government interfered in the marketplace. Government removed Glass-Steagall - not the banks. Prog-libs may whine about the banks acting unscrupulously, but you don't see mass arrests and prosecutions do you? Why? Because the cold hard reality is that banks did not break any laws. They simply followed the laws that government created. Don't like what they did? Blame the government. Prog-libs say government didn't 'force banks' to lend bad money. True. But you know what? Banks didn't 'force consumers' to borrow bad money either. But both banks and consumers acted stupidly for the same reason... Because government said it was fine.

And when you say the government pushed for subprime lending so everybody could buy a house, don't you mean bank lobbyists told Bush to push the idea in the first place?

The whole push for this started under Jimmy Carter, built up in the 80s & 90s, and finally took place with Bill Clinton in 1999. Did bank lobbyists push for it? Of course - mostly the bigger financial houses who were really limited by Glass-Steagall. The GOP was all OK with it too - alas. Democrats (particularly Barney Frank) were salivating over it. The rhetoric that built up to the final passage was mostly about how banks who were redlining poor minorities, and repealing G/S wouldu help everyone get homes, increase bank profits, fix your truck, and cure cancer. Both the GOP and Dems let this happen. Nowhere near enough people tried to stop it.

But let's call a tiger a tiger here... Standing up for Glass-Stegall in 1999 was a tough position to take. The proponents of the change were blasting anyone who opposed it as a racist, or a rich fat-cat that just didn't want 'the poor' to get a break. If you were against the repeal, all you could do is point at the Great Depression, and very distant macro-economic philosophies. We now have the 20/20 hindsight to see clearly that it was really the people trying to repeal G/S who were the jerks, @$$hats, and slimeballs. But in 1999 it was very different. Bush never 'speechified' it. In fact, Bush tried to get some reforms going in 2005 long before the bubble popped. But it was slapped down for the same reasons as the before. Wasn't until September/October 2007 that reality finally hit.

Winstonfield_Pennypackersays...

I said huge profits. I got no problem with profits

Define that. When is a company making 'huge profits' versus just plain 'profits'?

What I think you (and other prog-libs) are doing is not complaining about profits per se. You are complaining about HOW the profits were earned. Nothing the banking industry did in the bubble qualifies as illegal so we can't say they are illegal profits. So we enter a subjective arena where profits can be earned legally, but questionably. Apple, Microsoft, Banks, Oil, Tobacco, Green, Food - blah blah blah... Everyone that earns profit is attacked as achieving those profits unethically from some perspective.

The prog-libs claim the banks behaved questionably and so their profits are 'bad'. Brass tacks - prog/libs say the banks should have told people "No" when they applied for loans that they LEGALLY QUALIFIED for. I remember a story in the housing bust of a guy who earned only $45K a year. He bought a million dollar home and was paying for it by flipping 3 other properties. The bubble bursts. Now the dumb sap has 4 properties and he couldn't pay for any of them. He lost his house, all his credit, and had to go live in an apartment. A Prince trying to live on Pauper's income. Who's fault?

In 1995, the banks would have told this guy to jump in a lake. The interest rate was over 9% and the only loan he could possibly have qualified for was one with a payment of no greater than 25% of his gross monthly income. Check the tables to see what he would have qualified for in 1995. Hint: it ISN'T a million bucks...

It changed with Frank's "Uffodubble How-sing" act. The FED jacked around the rates. The FED changed Glass-Steagall. The FED told banks they would back up ARMs and other risky loans. 5 years later in the year 2000 when a doofus walks into the bank there is a smorgasboard of million dollar risky loans he legally qualifies for. When someone qualifies for a loan, and bank refuses, bank gets sued.

Some banks acted conservatively in the bubble and many others chose to do the risky (but still legal) loans. Just like how there were CONSUMERS who behaved conservatively during the bubble, and others who took the risky (but legal) ARMs. The problem was that the number of conservative players was a lot smaller than the risk-takers. The banks were stupid to take so many risks. People were stupid to take out so many loans. Government was stupid for engineering the whole mess. But make no mistake - the primary offender in this picture is the Federal Government. If they had not interfered in the market, then the whole mess would never have happened.

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